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In the Name of God بسم الله
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mansab.jafri

L.v. Beethoven - Symphony No. 9 In D Minor, Opus 125 "choral&quot

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(salam)

I would like to share my love of fine art with my brothers and sisters.

Beethoven's 9th Symphony is regarded as one of the most epic and genius creations of mankind. It was completed in 1824, while Beethoven was suffering from emotional problems and deafness. It is without a doubt Beethoven's greatest work and one of the most thrilling episodes in music history. It is a moment of truth and decisiveness and it shows the spirit of humanity, expressed by a man in his darkest days.

Though it is not the greatest performance of the Symphony, this performance by the Berliner Philharmoniker, conducted by Herbert von Karajan, is a very powerful presentation. I prefer the performance by Wilhelm Furtwangler with the Orchester der Bayeuther Festspiele, recorded in 1951.

Part 1 (1st Movement, 2nd Movement, some of the 3rd Movement):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=O2AEaQJuKDY

Part 2 (rest of 3rd Movement, and the 4th Movement):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cSEqQsAXbJw

- Mansab

Edited by mansab.jafri

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This is a personal opinion only.

I used to listen to classical music and the 9th was a personal favourite.

But I've taken on board the opinions/fatwas from scholars and discussions on this board and don't listen to music any more.

I know some people argue that classical music is 'different' to other forms and therefore allowed. But these arguments sound like wriggling to me.

And anyway I don't really need it.

Personally I think it's a bit off that you are publicising the 'Ode to Joy' even before the Imam's chehlum.

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Hmmmm.... From what I know about the scholars, they say that the music which is used to for unlawful and haram gatherings, etc., and illegal entertainment, is haram.

Why do you place this intellectual art on the same level?

- Mansab

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Hmmmm.... From what I know about the scholars, they say that the music which is used to for unlawful and haram gatherings, etc., and illegal entertainment, is haram.

- Mansab

I follow Ayatollah Sistani and his rulings on music are here:

http://www.sistani.org/local.php?modules=n...d=5&cid=526

They seem pretty clear cut to me, he says, 'Forbidden music is the music that is suitable for entertainment and amusement gatherings, even if it does not arouse sexual temptations

Sorry but classical music is for entertainment and amusement.

I know people in the past have tried to distinguish between louts at drunken raves and respectable people sitting in a concert hall. People have also come up with arguments that it is not really for amusement/entertainment but for 'relaxation'.

But I do not buy it.

In fact Ayat. Sistani goes on to say:

In this prohibition, we should include the recitation of the Holy Qur’ãn, supplications (du‘ãs), and songs of praise of Ahlul Bayt (a.s.) uttered to the accompaniment of those tunes [that are used by the entertainers]

Why do you place this intellectual art on the same level?

I've been through this discussion with Bro. Kadhim with reference to paintings, AIUI he considers classical art to be acceptable, even where it contains nudes.

I don't think so.

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Exept for the atheist bit, I find it inspiring and as melody should be. It inspired ppl to stand before tanks and guns and not fall.

The Chinese version in inspired the students in Tianenmen square and the version in India's farmers where the MNC led govt shot many of them!I am also beginning to istinsuih between 'boroise' music and the music of the proletariat.

I thik at a fundamental level Syed Sistani is tlaking the same thing, in the language of IsLam.

You could send these links to a mar'je or his western representative and see what they have to say.

Personally the understanding I have, reading the advice that has been given, is that however you dress it up, whether bourgeois/proletariat/revolutionary etc. it's not allowed.

You say that the Internationale is good except for the atheist bit. This is I think a reference to this: 'No saviour from on high delivers'.

http://www.uv.es/pla/red.net/intaoter.html

Quite frankly I think it's astounding that someone can find 'inspiring' a set of words that deny the existence of G-d. It's like saying that I like Rushdie's, Satanic Verses, except for the bit where he insults the Prophet (s.a.w.).

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What about what the greatest composer in history, Johann Sebastian Bach, wrote at the end of each of his manuscripts:

"For the glory of God alone."

If we can use Matam to express ourselves, why not art?

- Mansab

Edited by mansab.jafri

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What about what the greatest composer in history, Johann Sebastian Bach, wrote at the end of each of his manuscripts:

"For the glory of God alone."

If we can use Matam to express ourselves, why not art?

- Mansab

Er because the B Minor Mass also has the following words:

O Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,

the only begotten Son of God,

And was incarnate by the Holy Ghost,

of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost,

the Lord and giver of life,

Who prodeedeth from the Father and the Son,

http://www.sfbach.org/repertoire/massinbminor.html

As far as I know, no Shia nauha has words that go against the Muslim creed.

These words do.

If you read the Qu'ran you will see:

{The Cave/4} And warn those who say: Allah has taken a son.

{The Cave/5} They have no knowledge of it, nor had their fathers; a grievous word it is that comes out of their mouths; they speak nothing but a lie.

Personally speaking, I do and have read the Bible, as have I am sure many Muslim clerics, but that is with from an academic point of view.

I try wherever possible to avoid novels and films etc. for entertainment where I know that there will either be insults to Islam or views of creation/G-d that run counter to the Islamic view.

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(salam) B)

mansab, I have a collection classical music on my library if u want some. there are 105 songs and sympony which is popular 'til segmental

i can give u some detail from the author n composer :

1. Bach

2. Mozart

3. Beethoven

4. cHOPIN

5. Vivaldi

6. and many more..huh i tired to type it

:excl:

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Guest fatima2003

i have most of the works of beethovan ect.... i think its very pretty..... i know there are a lot of scholars who say its haram and therefore i listen more to nasheeds and quran recitations better but on occaision i will listen to classical..... personally i think if you are alone in your home and listening to this its not bad.... its not like you are listening to people singing about the christian god.....its just music..... and if you are alone i see no harm though many scholars will say otherwise.....

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its not like you are listening to people singing about the christian god.....its just music.....

Just wondering.

Would you have a picture of Ganesh in your house? Not to worship obviously but if you felt that it was a 'work of art'.

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Guest fatima2003
Just wondering.

Would you have a picture of Ganesh in your house? Not to worship obviously but if you felt that it was a 'work of art'.

noooo... i have no art work in my house that is not islamic..... nor would i ever.....

and how is that relevant in your veiw......?????? my point being that with art work you cannot say salat....how does music invalidate anything?or do any harm?

Edited by fatima2003

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(salam) B)

mansab, I have a collection classical music on my library if u want some. there are 105 songs and sympony which is popular 'til segmental

i can give u some detail from the author n composer :

1. Bach

2. Mozart

3. Beethoven

4. cHOPIN

5. Vivaldi

6. and many more..huh i tired to type it

:excl:

(salam)

Thanks bro, what do you have in your collection?

I have a lot of Artur Rubinstein's recordings and also Wilhelm Backhaus (two huge pianists of the last century, born at the end of the 1800s and died later in the 20th century).

If you have ever listened to Brahm's Concerto in Bb Major, you haven't listened to it unless you've heard it played by Backhaus, conducted by Karl Bohm with the Wiener Philharmoniker.

- Mansab

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noooo... i have no art work in my house that is not islamic..... nor would i ever.....

and how is that relevant in your veiw......?????? my point being that with art work you cannot say salat....how does music invalidate anything?or do any harm?

Your 'logic' was that Christian music (specifically that which makes reference to their idea of G-d) is ok because a Muslim listening to it would not understand what is being said.

So with reference to another artistic medium, I asked whether a picture of Ganesh would similarly be acceptable, bear in mind that I was also referring to that in the context of 'art'. There is one prominent shiachatter who regards classical paintings as ok, because they are 'art'.

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Guest fatima2003
Your 'logic' was that Christian music (specifically that which makes reference to their idea of G-d) is ok because a Muslim listening to it would not understand what is being said.

So with reference to another artistic medium, I asked whether a picture of Ganesh would similarly be acceptable, bear in mind that I was also referring to that in the context of 'art'. There is one prominent shiachatter who regards classical paintings as ok, because they are 'art'.

my logic is not that a muslim wouldnt undertsand the words but that there are no words to orchastramusic.... so if no words how then is this music haram........??????????

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my logic is not that a muslim wouldnt undertsand the words but that there are no words to orchastramusic.... so if no words how then is this music haram........??????????

Your post came just after mine, which was dealing with the words in Bach's Mass, hence my assumption that that's what you were referring to. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

if no words how then is this music haram........??????????

Anyway I can't square that statement with your previous one:

i know there are a lot of scholars who say its haram and therefore i listen more to nasheeds and quran recitations better but on occaision i will listen to classical

Which seems to be an acceptance that you do something that you know is haram, albeit occasionally.

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Guest fatima2003
Your post came just after mine, which was dealing with the words in Bach's Mass, hence my assumption that that's what you were referring to. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Anyway I can't square that statement with your previous one:

i know there are a lot of scholars who say its haram and therefore i listen more to nasheeds and quran recitations better but on occaision i will listen to classical

Which seems to be an acceptance that you do something that you know is haram, albeit occasionally.

in my mind is this..... the scholars diasagree on whether music is haram or not........ i myself do not knwo and if the scholars themselves disagree on the subject then i shoud then do what i feel would be acceptable to Allah....... my question to you is why do you say listening to orchastra with no words is haram...... what are your proofs................(the music he put here has no words to it this is why i simply discounted your statement about words because i never have heard classical where they sing)

Edited by fatima2003

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my question to you is why do you say listening to orchastra with no words is haram...... what are your proofs

I put in a link to Ayatollah Sistani's website where he deals with questions on music and to my mind they are pretty clear about music being haram, whether or not it is with or without words, classical, modern or whatever.

I'd be interested to see which mar'je allow music.

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Brother Mansab

Everytime I go to the supermarket, sit on a plane, walk through a shopping centre I'm tortured by musak - I mean that literally; I feel sorry for anyone who has to work in that environment. We're surrounded by music/noise pollution. but your youtube clip is qualitativel different.

Music/noise of any sort can be used to produce crude emotions that stifle spritual intuitions and stop rational thought but I'd be interested in your thoughts on the potentialities for therapeutic/spiritual use of music.

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Why not just appreciate the pure genius of Bach's B minor Mass instead of being converted to a different religion?

The logic doesn't make sense to me.

- Mansab

Bro, it's up to you.

Posts that are offensive towards the ahlul-bayt/mar'je are deleted from ShiaChat, but you think it's ok to listen to the oneness of G-d being challenged, for pleasure.

I've given the links to scholarly opinion, but it's a free world and people can make up their own rules.

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Sister Ifatima

the operative word in my post 'qualitative' - let's try and make some distinctions in this discussion about music and move it on from an halal/haram debate. Brother Haji 2003 has spelled out the position of majority of the marjaa but let's think about music and its effect on psychological/spiritual states.

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Guest fatima2003

ok.. i found the link......

ok... music brings peace and beauty when there is none... yes we can also get this from the quran in a better way but sometimes the words of the quran sound but you do not feel...... so sometimes you need to go away for a minute then when you come back its more fulfilling..... does this make sense?

Edited by fatima2003

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ok.. i found the link......

ok... music brings peace and beauty when there is none...

How many rulings have you ever come across where a jurist makes an exception to a rule on the basis that something brings 'peace and beauty'?

You guys can bring as many constructs to the debate as you wish - but at the end of the day they don't appear to affect scholarly opinion.

Reminds me of the man who asked a scholar whether masturbation was alright, as long as he thought of his wife while he did it. :P

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Guest fatima2003
How many rulings have you ever come across where a jurist makes an exception to a rule on the basis that something brings 'peace and beauty'?

You guys can bring as many constructs to the debate as you wish - but at the end of the day they don't appear to affect scholarly opinion.

Reminds me of the man who asked a scholar whether masturbation was alright, as long as he thought of his wife while he did it. :P

lol.;. ok this was funny... ii digress.... i was refering the statement to the brother who said he did not wish to make this a discussion on islamic law regarding the subject................this is why i wrote what i did.... i quit arguning law.. as per his request.... i was respectful to him.......

the operative word in my post 'qualitative' - let's try and make some distinctions in this discussion about music and move it on from an halal/haram debate. Brother Haji 2003 has spelled out the position of majority of the marjaa but let's think about music and its effect on psychological/spiritual states

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Yes - music is part of the structure of existence starting with the 'music of the spheres' - most of us can verify that the sound of a blackbird singing effects us positively while muzak in a supermarket is depressing.

Ibn Sina wrote of the spiritual and beneficial aspect of some melodies and I believe there have been developments in music therapy so I was interested in comments on possible positive effects of music.

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How many rulings have you ever come across where a jurist makes an exception to a rule on the basis that something brings 'peace and beauty'?

You guys can bring as many constructs to the debate as you wish - but at the end of the day they don't appear to affect scholarly opinion.

Reminds me of the man who asked a scholar whether masturbation was alright, as long as he thought of his wife while he did it. :P

Your views are way too extreme. Music has different affects on different people. Some types of music can lead some people to God and other types of music can lead some people away from God. Some people feel the beauty of the Divine in the beautiful sounds. Maybe you dont see it, but they may do. Jurists will naturally give answers that are strict because it is not practical for them to see each and every soul and tell them what is good for them and what is bad for them. In fact it is not their job at all to do that. Their job rather is to give these very broad general answers which usually don't have anything to do with the specific situation or circumstance one is in. That is why It would be misunderstanding the idea of shariah if one were to be so particular about it. You wanna know why Jurists are usually so strict? because they are responsible for you. But at the end of the day, everything depends on the circumstance or situation and your soul's disposition. At the end of the day you know yourself what is good for you and what is bad for you. So, by you quoting all these Jurists...It doesnt really carry much weight as you think it does.

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Jurists will naturally give answers that are strict because it is not practical for them to see each and every soul and tell them what is good for them and what is bad for them. In fact it is not their job at all to do that. Their job rather is to give these very broad general answers which usually don't have anything to do with the specific situation or circumstance one is in.

This is the very first time that I have heard this point of view. It's me whose been challenged to bring proofs, I did so and what I get is this! This debate is fascinating for the extent to which people seem to be coming up with all sorts of homespun arguments that don't appear in any fiqh books that I have come across.

In fact if this were the case why do jurists publish books with their rulings?

Why have websites where people can see what they have told someone else?

Why does Shiachat allow people to post answers they have received for others to read?

After all if everything is so context specific, surely there would be warnings everywhere that scholars' opinion in one case should not be revealed to anyone else?

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ok.. i found the link......

ok... music brings peace and beauty when there is none... yes we can also get this from the quran in a better way but sometimes the words of the quran sound but you do not feel...... so sometimes you need to go away for a minute then when you come back its more fulfilling..... does this make sense?

Slam Fatima,

If you understand Urdu please read a good poem: IF means you cant be satisfied if you get everything unless you Pray for God yani Zikr

Na dunya se na dolat se na garh abad karnay se

Tasali Dil ki hoti hai khuda ko yad karny se

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Guest fatima2003

as we were asked not to make this thread one debating whether or not muslic is haram or halal i started a new thread just for this debate............ brother hajj.. i respectfully ask you to accept the challenge.................a also respectfully ask sarcasm to be kept to a minimum.... lets see if we can prove either way......

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as we were asked not to make this thread one debating whether or not muslic is haram or halal

I can't see that reference, but am happy to continue in the other thread.

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This is the very first time that I have heard this point of view. It's me whose been challenged to bring proofs, I did so and what I get is this! This debate is fascinating for the extent to which people seem to be coming up with all sorts of homespun arguments that don't appear in any fiqh books that I have come across.

Dear brother... you must be open minded. You are very ignorant about the affects music has on the soul.

In fact if this were the case why do jurists publish books with their rulings?

Why? for the people who do not know what is good and bad for them. for people who chose not to take any responsibility.

Why have websites where people can see what they have told someone else?

Why not? people who do not know and who do not want to take responsibility tell other people who do not know and who do not want to take responsibility,

Why does Shiachat allow people to post answers they have received for others to read?

lol. why does shia chat allow people to say weird things? 1) either they may be weird themselves. 2) or they want or allow the weird questions to be answered by non weird ppl. (do pun intended). I personally have said a lot of weird things on this forum. I m surprised they allowed me to say them. but its good they allowed it. because then only was I able to learn from other people.

After all if everything is so context specific, surely there would be warnings everywhere that scholars' opinion in one case should not be revealed to anyone else?

No....not necessarily.

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I can't see that reference, but am happy to continue in the other thread.

(salam)

Brother, with all due respect, I have been classically trained since I was 6 years old, and I have never EVER in my entire life come across any Hadith or Islamic argument to group classical art into the "haram" category, and I find your view to be quite narrow-minded and extreme. There is a HUGE AND UNDENIABLE DIFFERENCE between sheer intellect and "false music".

If anything, I find that things like J.S. Bach's French Suites allow me to explore the complexities of existence itself and ponder upon the structure of order and the way it is expressed through the deepest of human emotions and feelings. It would be a waste of the mind to not allow the spread of this sort of exceptional brilliance. Imagine if the works of hundreds of composers, including Bach, Corelli, Handel, Brahms, Beethoven, Mozart, Cherubini, Mendelssohn, Schuman, etc., were DESTROYED. Would this be a "halal act" or a genocide of an entire episode of the most refined artistic disciplines and cultures known to man? Is this not a waste?

- Mansab

Edited by mansab.jafri

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Anyway, if you listen to the Symphony all the way through, I think you will take a new meaning to the term "music". There is a difference between what most people call "music" and what really is defined as the "ART OF MUSIC".

- Mansab

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(salam)

Brother, with all due respect, I have been classically trained since I was 6 years old, and I have never EVER in my entire life come across any Hadith or Islamic argument to group classical art into the "haram" category, and I find your view to be quite narrow-minded and extreme.

As I said previously, you are welcome to your interpretation.

But if anyone posts links to music on Shiachat, I think it is incumbent on the rest of us to at the very least point out to them and others (especially those who are young or new to Islam) that this is an area that merits further investigation.

I think there are enough discussions on Shiachat itself for those who are mindful to see what the issues are and take them up with their mar'je should they wish to do so.

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(salam)

Thanks bro, what do you have in your collection?

I have a lot of Artur Rubinstein's recordings and also Wilhelm Backhaus (two huge pianists of the last century, born at the end of the 1800s and died later in the 20th century).

If you have ever listened to Brahm's Concerto in Bb Major, you haven't listened to it unless you've heard it played by Backhaus, conducted by Karl Bohm with the Wiener Philharmoniker.

- Mansab

(salam)

I afraid the guys you said over there are available in my collection's piece but AFAIK, Brahm's song that mine was Hungarian dance no. 5 Gm. however im sure some songs shouldn't be disappoint you such as : Habanera, Handel's Water music, some Sir Edward Elgar pieces, OttorinoRespighi's Pines of Rome, Bizet's Carment (without sopranos), Some Strauss pieces, and one of my favourite, Igor Stravinsky's FreeBird 1919 version.

maybe someday I will post the whole list if not bother you. ;)

for this thread, with all due respect for Ayatullah Sistani, Im not takleed with him so I mustn't follow his fatwa about music

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