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In the Name of God بسم الله
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Takmil

Religion And History

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Every Religion claims that it is Divine.But if Divine,it must not be influenced or altered by events of History.

Judaism:When Judaism came in contact with Islam in Spain,Maimonides formed its basic theology,which was heavily influenced by Islam.

But when Jews were expelled from Spain, Rabbi Isaac Luria (1534 – July 25, 1572)proposed a new theory of Jewish God and creation.His theories were the basis of modern Judaism,in which Israel is searching for a Union with God,by mitzvot.This exile of Shekinah,made them observe 631 mitzvot with fanatic zeal.

Christianity:At the same time,when Jews realized that they can achieve Salvation through hard work,Christians reached on an opposite conclusion.The black death of 1348,the fall of Constantinople in 1453, the ecclesiastical scandals of Avignon Captivity(1334)and the Great Schism(1417) proved human impotence and brought Church to disrepute.So Protestant formed a depressing theology,in which humans were helpless to change their destiny through work.

Islam:During the past centuries,Muslims have also observed rise and fall in their history.But Islam has not changed with the tide of history like the other religions.This proves that Islam is a superior and the only divine religion.

Edited by Takmil

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(salam)

Yes, Indeed brother...

I would like to make an addition to your statement... Islam is still alive because its "Rehnuma" Our 12th Imam, Imam-e-Zamana (atfs)- the true caretaker of Islam is Alive....

The Muslims are not left without a Divine hand on their heads... But unfortunately, many of us do not understand....

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Christianity:At the same time,when Jews realized that they can achieve Salvation through hard work,Christians reached on an opposite conclusion.The black death of 1348,the fall of Constantinople in 1453, the ecclesiastical scandals of Avignon Captivity(1334)and the Great Schism(1417) proved human impotence and brought Church to disrepute.So Protestant formed a depressing theology,in which humans were helpless to change their destiny through work.

Rubbish.

The reformation had absolutely noting to do with any of these events.

It was caused by the practice of the Roman Church to sell forgivness of sin in advance.

Tha basis for Christianity is stated quite clearly in the teachings of Jesus.He told us we can only be judged by God.

Islamic leaders, in particular, don't like this because they make a very nice living by claiming the authority of God and imposing judgements and penalities on behalf of God.

Such claims by humans to be partners with God are rejected by Christians. God is one.

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You can read about it here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation

Do you think Luther dropped from heaven or was he a Prophet? :unsure:

Read about the Roots and precursors here

Luther wasn't a prophet. He was just someone who happened to be in a fortunate position at the time that he could make his protests without risking being thrown onto a bonfire.

Many other had attempted to do exactly what Luther had done over the previous 400 years. Including a number in England.

All ended up on a bonfire.

Edited by surfinjo

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Luther wasn't a prophet. He was just someone who happened to be in a fortunate position at the time that he could make his protests without risking being thrown onto a bonfire.

Many other had attempted to do exactly what Luther had done over the previous 400 years. Including a number in England.

All ended up on a bonfire.

(salam)

Well said. That was the state of Europe in the Dark Ages.

Hope we dont end up that way in our intolerance of differences in opinion.

Peace!

Edited by lfatima

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Well said. That was the state of Europe in the Dark Ages.

Hope we dont end up that way in our intolerance of differences in opinion.

The period I was refering to was not the dark ages. it was the Middle ages.

It would seem that Islam is already very much in a state of intolerace.

It suits your leaders to keep you divided.

If God is one who is greater Jesus or God?

Who do you think?

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Luther wasn't a prophet. He was just someone who happened to be in a fortunate position at the time that he could make his protests without risking being thrown onto a bonfire.

Many other had attempted to do exactly what Luther had done over the previous 400 years. Including a number in England.

All ended up on a bonfire.

So for the first 15 centuries,Christians believed in a wrong type of Christianity?It took a new Prophet,Luther to correct their faith.

OF JUSTIFICATION

by Dr. Martin Luther

292 It is impossible for a papist to understand this article: ‘I believe the forgiveness of sins.’ For the papists are drowned in their opinions, as I also was when among them, of the cleaving to our inherent righteousness. The Scripture names the faithful, saints and people of God, It is a sin and shame that we would forget this glorious and comfortable name and title. But the papists are such direct sinners, that they will not be reckoned sinners; and again, they will neither be holy nor held so to be. And in this sort it goes on with them untoward and crosswise, so that they neither believe the Gospel which comforts, nor the law which punishes, But here one may say: the sins which we daily commit, offend and anger God; how then can we be holy?

That is what I mean.Both Judaism and Christianity were corrected by the later day Prophets so how can we be sure that they are the true Religion?True religion like Islam needs no correction like these two so called Religions.

Tolerance is allowing others to hod false beliefs.It doesn't mean that we should also believe such beliefs.

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Judaism:When Judaism came in contact with Islam in Spain,Maimonides formed its basic theology,which was heavily influenced by Islam.

But when Jews were expelled from Spain, Rabbi Isaac Luria (1534 – July 25, 1572)proposed a new theory of Jewish God and creation.His theories were the basis of modern Judaism,in which Israel is searching for a Union with God,by mitzvot.This exile of Shekinah,made them observe 631 mitzvot with fanatic zeal.

Sadly, the person from whom you are quoting knows very little about Judaism. Perhaps it would help if you would cite your source.

Judaism, unlike many other religions, does not center on a 'creed' or affirmation of dogmas, or, in the above writer's view, "basic theology." It centers on the mitzvot ('commandments'), which constitute the grammar of a Jew's relationship with God.

Maimonides wrote some crucial works on halacha (Jewish law), including the Mishneh Torah, and a commentary on the Gemara (an ancient text). These are authoritative Jewish legal works and are studied to this day. He also wrote many other books on other topics. For example, he wrote a treatise on asthma. (He was a physician.)

Now, as a Jew, I have to pay very serious attention to Maimonides' halachic rulings (although even at that I am not necessarily bound by them). But I do not have to pay any attention to his views on treatment of asthma. Those derived from his own research and from what he learned from physicians who preceded him.

The same goes for his philosophical writings (e.g., Moreh Nevuchim, A Guide for the Perplexed). To the extent that Maimonides was writing philosophy, it's very interesting, but it's not binding on anyone, because Judaism isn't about philosophy, any more than it's about asthma. No one, but no one, has to believe anything because "Maimonides said so." And, in fact, you will find that various aspects of his philosophy were contested heavily from the day they were written, and never fully adopted.

As for the ARI (Rabbi Isaac Luria), his thinking (mysticism) was enormously influential in the development of kabbalah, and many customs which are widespread across the Jewish world. However, if you are not "into" kabbalah, it has very little practical relevance for you. The mitzvot do not change.

Islam:During the past centuries,Muslims have also observed rise and fall in their history.But Islam has not changed with the tide of history like the other religions.This proves that Islam is a superior and the only divine religion.

No, this proves that the author doesn't know anything about history. If I pulled out a 10th century book by the mutazila or mutakallimun, would that 100% represent what goes on at your mosque, today?

Edited by Maimonides

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Maimonides:

Maimonides used Sufi and Islamic ideas to give Judaism a faith,defying every law about reading the Torah.He succeeded in saving Jews from converting to Islam,but at the cost of destroying Judaism forever.

The argument for sufi influence is particularly tempting. Maimonides' in-law was a known sufi; his wife may have been one too; there were known Jewish sufis in his entourage; his son was under sufi influence; and the school that developed under R. Abraham was certainly under sufi influence. Indeed, in his Mishne Torah in Hilkhot Nezirut 14:15, Maimonides argues just for such pietistic living in spite of its not being a life led according to the golden mean as he requires elsewhere:

But he who vows to God in the way of holiness -- this is pleasing and praiseworthy. Concerning this it was said, "The laurel (Heb., nezer) of his God is upon his head ... he is holy unto the Lord" (Nu. 6:4-5). And Scripture has accounted him as equal to the prophet, as it says, "I shall cause prophets to arise from your children and nazirites from your young men" (Amos 2:11).

Again, in his Mishne Torah in Hilkhot Shemitta ve-Yovel 13:12-13, Maimonides makes an argument for intensely religious living:

Why did [the tribe of] Levi not merit an inheritance in the land of Israel and a share in the spoils of war together with its brothers? Because it was set aside to worship God, to teach His direct ways and His righteous judgements to the public ... Therefore, they were set aside from the ways of the world: they did not wage war like the rest of Israel and they did not inherit the land ... Rather, they are the army of the Lord, as it says ...

The tribe of Levi is not alone [in this]. Rather, every single person of those who live in the world, whose spirit has gratefully welled up, and who has comprehended in his or her mind to be separated and to stand before God, to serve Him, to worship Him, and to know Him; who has walked in the straight path that God has intended for her or him; and who has shed from his or her neck the yoke of the many accountings that humans make [of one another] -- this person has become holy [like] the holy of holies, and God will be her or his portion and inheritance forever and ever. Such a person will have sufficient in this world, as did the priests and levites, as David, may he rest in peace, said, "The Lord is my portion of inheritance and my cup; You sustain my destiny" (Ps. 16:5).

Lobel has pointed out that Halevi took terms that were in the Islamic environment and transformed those terms by applying them in a rather strict rabbinic framework of thought. Much the same may be true of Maimonides: that he first built an intellectualist, philosophic system rooted largely in Aristotle though drawing on Alfarabi and others; and then, on the basis of his own personal religious experience, he added on top of that a spiritual teaching which used sufi-like terms in their non-technical sense, transforming those terms to serve his own purposes.

Maimonides in the twelfth century formulated his "Thirteen Articles of Faith" that have become the most famous creedal formulation. His statement that accompanied the formulation was a caveat that a person who held to these beliefs should be loved with affection and brotherly sympathy - even if he be guilty of every possible transgression through his desires and lack of self-control. He will be punished according to the measure of his perversity but he will none the less enjoy a portion in the world to come. However, if a man breaks away from any of the fundamental principles of belief, then he loses his membership in the body of Israel; he is a heretic who should be hated and extirpated.

Maimonides thus made correct faith supreme over all other aspects of Judaism and Jewish life. "The believing sinner is included in 'the general body of Israel.' The unbeliever [though a righteous and just person] is excluded."(31) This, I submit, is a nonbiblical position. I hazard the thought that Maimonides was driven to take this position by his rationalist approach, his great power of conceptualization, and perhaps also by his fear that the danger of apostasy to Islam or Christianity was so great and imminent that a strong and unusual measure had to be taken. Since Islam and Christianity emphasized creedal faith, there had to be, to meet the emergency, a formulation of Jewish creedal beliefs

Milton R. Konvitz

Isaac Luria

The teachings of the Ari have been widely accepted in Orthodox Judaism, although not all groups follow the customs he initiated or revived. Those communities which most tend to play down or avoid the influence of the Ari mainly consist of certain Litvish and Modern Orthodox groups, as well as a noticeable segment of Baladi Yemenite Jews and others who follow a form of Torah Judaism more strictly in line with classical authorities like Maimonides and the Geonim (see Dor Daim) and the Spanish and Portuguese Jews.

Islam;

Yes,Islam remained the same over the centuries,despite various attempts by the Jews to destroy the true religion.

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Maimonides:

Maimonides used Sufi and Islamic ideas to give Judaism a faith,defying every law about reading the Torah.He succeeded in saving Jews from converting to Islam,but at the cost of destroying Judaism forever.

The argument for sufi influence is particularly tempting. Maimonides' in-law was a known sufi; his wife may have been one too; there were known Jewish sufis in his entourage; his son was under sufi influence; and the school that developed under R. Abraham was certainly under sufi influence. Indeed, in his Mishne Torah in Hilkhot Nezirut 14:15, Maimonides argues just for such pietistic living in spite of its not being a life led according to the golden mean as he requires elsewhere:

But he who vows to God in the way of holiness -- this is pleasing and praiseworthy. Concerning this it was said, "The laurel (Heb., nezer) of his God is upon his head ... he is holy unto the Lord" (Nu. 6:4-5). And Scripture has accounted him as equal to the prophet, as it says, "I shall cause prophets to arise from your children and nazirites from your young men" (Amos 2:11).

Again, in his Mishne Torah in Hilkhot Shemitta ve-Yovel 13:12-13, Maimonides makes an argument for intensely religious living:

Why did [the tribe of] Levi not merit an inheritance in the land of Israel and a share in the spoils of war together with its brothers? Because it was set aside to worship God, to teach His direct ways and His righteous judgements to the public ... Therefore, they were set aside from the ways of the world: they did not wage war like the rest of Israel and they did not inherit the land ... Rather, they are the army of the Lord, as it says ...

The tribe of Levi is not alone [in this]. Rather, every single person of those who live in the world, whose spirit has gratefully welled up, and who has comprehended in his or her mind to be separated and to stand before God, to serve Him, to worship Him, and to know Him; who has walked in the straight path that God has intended for her or him; and who has shed from his or her neck the yoke of the many accountings that humans make [of one another] -- this person has become holy [like] the holy of holies, and God will be her or his portion and inheritance forever and ever. Such a person will have sufficient in this world, as did the priests and levites, as David, may he rest in peace, said, "The Lord is my portion of inheritance and my cup; You sustain my destiny" (Ps. 16:5).

Lobel has pointed out that Halevi took terms that were in the Islamic environment and transformed those terms by applying them in a rather strict rabbinic framework of thought. Much the same may be true of Maimonides: that he first built an intellectualist, philosophic system rooted largely in Aristotle though drawing on Alfarabi and others; and then, on the basis of his own personal religious experience, he added on top of that a spiritual teaching which used sufi-like terms in their non-technical sense, transforming those terms to serve his own purposes.

Maimonides in the twelfth century formulated his "Thirteen Articles of Faith" that have become the most famous creedal formulation. His statement that accompanied the formulation was a caveat that a person who held to these beliefs should be loved with affection and brotherly sympathy - even if he be guilty of every possible transgression through his desires and lack of self-control. He will be punished according to the measure of his perversity but he will none the less enjoy a portion in the world to come. However, if a man breaks away from any of the fundamental principles of belief, then he loses his membership in the body of Israel; he is a heretic who should be hated and extirpated.

Maimonides thus made correct faith supreme over all other aspects of Judaism and Jewish life. "The believing sinner is included in 'the general body of Israel.' The unbeliever [though a righteous and just person] is excluded."(31) This, I submit, is a nonbiblical position. I hazard the thought that Maimonides was driven to take this position by his rationalist approach, his great power of conceptualization, and perhaps also by his fear that the danger of apostasy to Islam or Christianity was so great and imminent that a strong and unusual measure had to be taken. Since Islam and Christianity emphasized creedal faith, there had to be, to meet the emergency, a formulation of Jewish creedal beliefs

Milton R. Konvitz

Isaac Luria

The teachings of the Ari have been widely accepted in Orthodox Judaism, although not all groups follow the customs he initiated or revived. Those communities which most tend to play down or avoid the influence of the Ari mainly consist of certain Litvish and Modern Orthodox groups, as well as a noticeable segment of Baladi Yemenite Jews and others who follow a form of Torah Judaism more strictly in line with classical authorities like Maimonides and the Geonim (see Dor Daim) and the Spanish and Portuguese Jews.

Islam;

Yes,Islam remained the same over the centuries,despite various attempts by the Jews to destroy the true religion.

Rambam was influenced by Islam, especially shia ismaili thought, and Muslim thinkers were also influenced by Jews. So what?

"The Jews tried to destroy Islam?" umm, when was this? You sound like these born-agains (but at the other extreme). Please cite when "the Jews" tried to destroy Islam.

Even Islam is historically influenced. For example, hadith: as a shia I believe many hadith were fabricated by abbasids and umayids to tarnish the ahl bayt (as). Concepts like Taqleed are later developments. In fact there is a hadith that states than when Sahib Az Zaman (as) returns he will reintroduce the true form of Islam.

It is safe to say that the essentials of Islam have not changed: The Quran ... It is not like we turned our beloved Prophet (Salli Allahu alaihi wa alihi wa salam) into a god, astaghfurullah. But the Islam we practice is not the exact same as that practiced in the 8th century.

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In fact there is a hadith that states than when Sahib Az Zaman (as) returns he will reintroduce the true form of Islam.

Don't wanna take this thread off topic. My view of Imam Mehdi restoring the true shia islam, revolves around the many innovations and cultural leanings we all have developed, as well as many things outside islam....like shias who choose matam over prayers, shias who focus more on Imam Ali than the prophet, shias who focus more on Ahlul-Bayt than Allah swt and other similar stuff. He'll abolish all that.

Edited by koroigetsuga

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What is funny is that Judaism started as a religion of work and not faith.

According to "The Jewish Encylopedia", Judaism cannot be said to possess "Articles of Faith", as is found in Christianity or Islam. The encylopedia notes that: Many attempts have indeed been made at systematizing and reducing to a fixed phraseology and sequence the contents of the Jewish religion. But these have always lacked the one essential element: authoritative sanction on the part of a supreme ecclesiastical body. And for this reason they have not been recognized as final or regarded as of universally binding force. Though to a certain extent incorporated in the liturgy and utilized for purposes of instruction, these formulations of the cardinal tenets of Judaism carried no greater weight than that imparted to them by the fame and scholarship of their respective authors.

But Mamiondes fearing that Jews will convert to Islam if Judaism had no faith,his whole family had already become sufi muslim,formed his thirteenth principles.These 13 were debated from the start but were eventually accepted by the Judaism,destroying it and making it a religion which resembled islam.

This creed Maimonides wrote while still a very young man; it forms a part of his Mishnah Commentary, but he never referred to it in his later works (See S/ Adler, "Tenets of Faith and Their Authority in the Talmud," in his "Kobez 'al Yad," p. 92, where Yad ha¬Hazakah, Issure Biah, xiv, 2, is referred to as proof that Maimonides in his advanced age regarded as fundamental of the faith only the unity of God and the prohibition of idolatry). It did not meet universal acceptance; but, as its phraseology is succinct, it has passed into the prayer¬book, and is therefore familiar to almost all Jews of the Orthodox school.

Luther formed Protestanism not because he found that in bible,infact he even altered bible to suit his purpose.

The most important example of dogmatic influence in Luther's version is the famous interpolation of the word alone in Rom. 3:28 (allein durch den Glauben), by which he intended to emphasize his solifidian doctrine of justification, on the plea that the German idiom required the insertion for the sake of clearness. (39) But he thereby brought Paul into direct verbal conflict with James, who says (James 2:24), "by works a man is justified, and not only by faith" ("nicht durch den Glauben allein"). It is well known that Luther deemed it impossible to harmonize the two apostles in this article, and characterized the Epistle of James as an "epistle of straw," because it had no evangelical character ("keine evangelische Art").

I will not open a sectarian debate in a inter Religious forum,but I would like some answers from Jews and Christians as they are not addressed to Muslims.

It is not that Muslims have different beliefs.A few minority sects may have altered Islam but both Sunnis and Shias follow the same Islam

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Christianity:At the same time,when Jews realized that they can achieve Salvation through hard work,Christians reached on an opposite conclusion. So Protestant formed a depressing theology,in which humans were helpless to change their destiny through work.

Actually it is a wonderful feeling to know God is our Redeemer and our salvation is in only Him. The burden of sin is lifted and one can concentrate on praising our Creator.

I have wondered how terrible it must be for people to try and earn heaven. The value of living eternity with our Creator would be very high. Consider how long eternity is? The 6th verse of Amazing Grace says after 10,000 years of praising God we will not be one day shorter of the time we have. Would a man not give all his wealth for it?

Satan must be working hard casting doubt in the minds of those trying to earn such a wonderful thing. I have never seen a weight scale for the value of a good deed compared to the negative value of a sin. How do you know if your good deeds out weigh your sins? If you miss a prayer how much money should you give to charity to balance the scale. If you have lustful thoughts in your heart what kind of deed will balance the scale in your favor? If know scale exist do you have doubts in yourself? Is it fair no scale has been published so you can be sure?

I wish you Peace and Love from our Creator.

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If we cannt earn a heaven,then creation becomes meaningless.

Many persons have never heard of Jesus Christ.It will be foolish to suppose that all their good deeds will be wasted as they have a wrong faith.

002.062

YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

It is not tilting a scale that counts in Islam but TRYING to tilt one.

O our Rabb - Creator, Sustainer and Nourisher of the entire universe - it is you whom we worship and to you we turn for help and guidance. O our Benevolent Rabb, you have identified the entire mankind as one, single ummah. Pour in our heart love and empathy toward the humanity. O Allah, remove mutual hatred and bigotry from all of us and increase amity and empathy among the people around the world. O Allah, bless and guide me in this world and grant me your mercy in the hereafter. O Allah, bestow the same upon my dear ones among my family, relatives, friends and neighbors and upon the entire humanity. Of course, anyone who does not care about your mercy, blessing and guidance (or even deny or defy you), you are the most just and compassionate.

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