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BintAlHoda

Why Can't A Woman Be A Marja'?

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(salam)

Does anyone know why a woman cannot be a marja'?

I am looking for the RELIGIOUS PROOFS (Qur'an, hadith, reasoning, etc).

Please do NOT share your viewpoints on female intellect, female emotions, the "nature of women", PMS, childbearing (since not all women bear children anyway), female weakness, or other reasons why YOU PERSONALLY would not want a female marja'. I am not asking for your OPINION. I am asking for the REAL reasons why they rule that a lady cannot be a marja' although she can be a mujtahid.

Anyone know?

Edited by BintAlHoda

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(salam)

Does anyone know why a woman cannot be a marja'?

I am looking for the RELIGIOUS PROOFS (Qur'an, hadith, reasoning, etc).

Please do NOT share your viewpoints on female intellect, female emotions, the "nature of women", PMS, childbearing (since not all women bear children anyway), female weakness, or other reasons why YOU PERSONALLY would not want a female marja'. I am not asking for your OPINION. I am asking for the REAL reasons why they rule that a lady cannot be a marja' although she can be a mujtahid.

Anyone know?

Could it be a similar to why all Prophets are male.

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I read women can acquire the learning to extent that she does not follow a mujtahid because she is one herself. I heard few scholars say maybe other women could follow her taqlid. But it seems to be largely theoretical as in recent times few women have obtained the level of education necessary, for many reasons.

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I'm sure you've read Imam Ali's (as) words on the matter. Do you question their context or authenticity?

Yes; he is not talking about the marja'iyyah, and his words were addressed to a specific situation and context, and not women marja's as a whole.

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Yes; he is not talking about the marja'iyyah, and his words were addressed to a specific situation and context, and not women marja's as a whole.

If his sayings are authentic, it seems to me he demolished the very foundations whereby a woman could possibly be a marja. Now it's all on thin air.

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If his sayings are authentic, it seems to me he demolished the very foundations whereby a woman could possibly be a marja. Now it's all on thin air.

What in the world are you talking about? What saying?

(salam)

Does anyone know why a woman cannot be a marja'?

Who toldja they can't be?

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(salam)

woman can be mujtahid but not marji3 because marja3 has a leadership role and under islam the men are leaders and sustainers of the women as the quraan says

secondly the woman is a source of attraction and requires hijab and its against the concept of hijab to subject a woman to going public and to subject her to the sights of people and the interaction with the public a role which is required by a marji3.

fatimat alzahra says : "the best woman is one that not one has seen her and she has not seen any"

so how will this so called marji3 which is meant to be a role model for women be a good woman with millions of men seeing her and talking to her ???

Have you ever heard of a Woman prophet ???

the problem is today women have lost their feminine side they think acting like a man will elevate them

Edited by alimohamad40

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I think they have been, in the past.

Salaams

interesting post. Thats why I kep coming bk to this forum.. despite all the other stuff :(

Let us not forget Bibi Zainab s.a is the founder of azadaari.. Azaadari is the legacy of the mourning women of Karbala..

and in itself a very feminine process.. outlet of righteious anger, outrge, emotion and pain.. a 'Dard' which is very feminine in its essence..

it makes grown men open up to their 'feminine' side.. and shed tears..Alhamduillah!!

Edited by lfatima

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woman can be mujtahid but not marji3 because marja3 has a leadership role and under islam the men are leaders and sustainers of the women as the quraan says

it says they are "qawwamun" because of what they spend. if a lady is not married or her husband/family does not support her, then that does not apply.

secondly the woman is a source of attraction and requires hijab and its against the concept of hijab to subject a woman to going public and to subject her to the sights of people and the interaction with the public a role which is required by a marji3.

not necessarily... a lady could be a marja' and still wear full hijab, even niqab... most of the role is in scholarship

so how will this so called marji3 which is meant to be a role model for women be a good woman with millions of men seeing her and talking to her ???

well, don't male maraaji' talk to millions of women and still preserve their religion?

however, to simplify the discussion, what if a woman became a marja' FOR OTHER WOMEN? that way, they would be comfortable asking their religious questions to her.

Have you ever heard of a Woman prophet ???

are marja's prophets?

the problem is today women have lost their feminine side they think acting like a man will elevate them

it could be... but i do not see how that applies in this situation. knowledge is not un-feminine. men and women are both encouraged to learn. a marja' is supposed to be the most learned, so if a lady happens to be the most learned, why not?

for instance, if sayyeda zaynab (saa) were alive among us, and no one else from ahl al-bayt (as) were, wouldn't we want to follow her religious rulings?

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What I don't understand is that if a woman can be a mujtahid, why can't she be a marja? It's another thing, that when she is a mujtahid people are not supposed to emulate her, but she can follow her own derived laws.

People do taqleed of mujtahids too. So what's the difference? And why should she be stopped from becoming a marja?

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What I don't understand is that if a woman can be a mujtahid, why can't she be a marja? It's another thing, that when she is a mujtahid people are not supposed to emulate her, but she can follow her own derived laws.

People do taqleed of mujtahids too. So what's the difference? And why should she be stopped from becoming a marja?

It's stronger than that apparently:

It is haram for a person who has reached the level of ijtihad to do taqlid

for another mujtahid. This applies equally to men as well as women.

http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/aali...k/msg00250.html

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so it's due to the ijmaa' of male scholars???

no comment is the best comment....

anyway it's not like i myself want to get out there and be a marja', i have no interest in all the intricacies you need to study to even possibly reach that point. i'm perfectly content to trust in my own marja' with regards to making religious rulings. however, i have sometimes felt that there is little use in a woman getting to the level of ijtihad when she can't really use it for anything. even though some women do do it out of interest or some other reason.

Edited by BintAlHoda

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Subhan'Allah it was just today that I was remembering a story that was told to me about women becoming marja3. Well maybe i can enlighten you on this situation so that you can see the pure logic behind this incident. A marja3's wife once came up to him and questioned why is it women cannot be a maraji3, especially if she is able to obtain the same knowledge. One day this marj3 travels overseas, he leaves a note for his wife and tells her that he wanted to marry another women. The Marja3's wife became emotional, losing her sense of reasoning, when he came back from his trip he told her this is why women cannot lead in having a role of being a marja3, Women are way too emotional and cannot handle people while trying to deal with their own conflicts, however a man is stronger in that aspect. Its truely amazing how he was just testing his wife, and look what measures she went to, how then would she be able to handle thousands of followers?

DrEaMa...

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^^^ Actually I am a female haj, and have no pride in rejecting what could be the truth!

DrEaMa...

Sorry.

Actually I posted here:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234938282

about what seems to be a (new?) radical feminist approach to Shia Islam. It goes far wider than just the issue of mar'ja and goes into the realm of re-interpreting what the Qu'ran says.

It seems too radical to me - but I think this is one of those areas where once/if you question the role/status of women in one area of religion (e.g. being a marja) you then need to reassess the consistency of what you are saying in other areas as well.

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(salam)

from what i know she can be a historical marji3 (for fiqh, woships and dealership) but not a political leader and judge

the complete marji3 is Also a political leader and a judge and both of those roles are prohibited on females in islam

how is a woman whom its ideal for her to " not be seen by any man and no man should see her " how can she be able to preform the role of leadership and judgment (which is not hers)

The womans battle ground is her house not the streets and the cities and the war capms:

Allah says in the quraan : "oh wives of the prophet sit at home and do not decorate the decoration of the first ignorance era"

A political marji3 woman is An Aisha or an Amina wadud where she leads a prayer while having males and females and gays pray behind her and makes her self and her body subject to the sight of the males when she bends for rokoo3 or sujood do we want that femenists???

is this what you people are calling for?

come on read the story of how musa walked infront of the two doughters of shuaib in median and said: "we the prophets do not look at the womens back" which made her say " this man is ameen" trustworthy and asked him for marriage " the best match"

Edited by alimohamad40

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I think a woman can follow the guidance of a female mujtahid, but a man should only follow a man. I think I read that somewhere, but I'm not sure where. I'm also pretty sure I've read that there have been women marjas only for other women to follow in the past. I have read too many things to recall precisely where I've read this, so hopefully someone else has also seen this information and will be able to verify it.

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Subhan'Allah it was just today that I was remembering a story that was told to me about women becoming marja3. Well maybe i can enlighten you on this situation so that you can see the pure logic behind this incident. A marja3's wife once came up to him and questioned why is it women cannot be a maraji3, especially if she is able to obtain the same knowledge. One day this marj3 travels overseas, he leaves a note for his wife and tells her that he wanted to marry another women. The Marja3's wife became emotional, losing her sense of reasoning, when he came back from his trip he told her this is why women cannot lead in having a role of being a marja3, Women are way too emotional and cannot handle people while trying to deal with their own conflicts, however a man is stronger in that aspect. Its truely amazing how he was just testing his wife, and look what measures she went to, how then would she be able to handle thousands of followers?

DrEaMa...

Another story. An otherwise intelligent man came home early from a business trip and found his wife in bed with another man. He went ballistic, losing his reason temporarily, and killed them.

Therefore, using the principle of "sweeping generalization by isolated anecdote " I conclude that men cannot be maraja.

Sorry.

Actually I posted here:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234938282

about what seems to be a (new?) radical feminist approach to Shia Islam. It goes far wider than just the issue of mar'ja and goes into the realm of re-interpreting what the Qu'ran says.

It seems too radical to me - but I think this is one of those areas where once/if you question the role/status of women in one area of religion (e.g. being a marja) you then need to reassess the consistency of what you are saying in other areas as well.

Well, it seems it's a necessary thing. If opening everything up to discussion is what is necessary to resolve an issue, then so be it. In this day and age, it doesn't fly to just say, "we're not going to talk about this." It just makes things worse to bottle up the discussion.

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There are certain things that a Marja-taqleed can do. When one becomes a marj-taqleed, he has the choice of exercising Wali-al-Faqih. A woman cannot do this. A marja is responsible for the affairs of the public such as taking care of any and all orphans that he is aware of, leading a war when necessary, being a judge, etc. There are many things that a marja must do and must take responsibility for, many of these things a woman cannot do, Islamically for good reason.

Why can a woman not do these things. Most women spend large parts of their lives resolving conflicts and caring for the helpless. It's called "mothering."

People need to realize that, particularly in the West, it simply doesn't cut it anymore to say, "oh, a woman obviously can't do these sorts of things, it's obvious and end of discussion." They'll either laugh at you or stone you or both.

Either there is a solid rational reason that we should be able to explain to people here, or, if we cannot find a solid rational reason that holds up then we have to begin to question the Islamic authenticity of these general statements that women cannot be maraja, judges, leaders, etc. Every Islamic truth has a reason behind it, and as the imams have said, the post-prophetic age is the age of aql, reason, intellect.

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Salaam to everyone..

I'm not even sure what a marja is, can anyone clarify?

I know this may be a bit too easy to answer the problem, but if one or any of the responsibilities of this marja-position is to lead the congregational prayers, then maybe that's why there is a restriction on a woman-marja...?

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(salam)

how is a woman whom its ideal for her to " not be seen by any man and no man should see her " how can she be able to preform the role of leadership and judgment (which is not hers)

Unless you want to argue in this day and age that women should always stay at home and never leave, you'll probably want to dump this as a support of your argument.

Allah says in the quraan : "oh wives of the prophet sit at home and do not decorate the decoration of the first ignorance era"

You can't generalize from the instructions to the wives of the prophet. As the Qu'ran says, "you are not like other women." They were asked to stay in to keep their reputation intact.

A political marji3 woman is An Aisha or an Amina wadud where she leads a prayer while having males and females and gays pray behind her and makes her self and her body subject to the sight of the males when she bends for rokoo3 or sujood do we want that femenists???

Well, a marja doesn't necessarily need to lead a prayer. She just needs to provide religious guidance, answer questions.

Edited by kadhim

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Sorry, BintalHoda, I know you did not want the thread to be about this: Women are NOT deficient in intellect. Women are not too emotional. Aqsa Parvez-- the girl whose father murdered her over hijab-- totally let his emotions and anger overcome him. He committed murder due to his emotions.

Anyway, maybe someone should email a marja and find out exactly the reasoning, and please do share it on this thread if you find out. Let me caution you that some of the marja take months to respond, which is somewhat inconvenient.

Edited by BabyBeaverIsAKit

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Guest spacey

Simply put, God has already endowed women with the burden of childbearing and rearing.

Now it is not to say that a woman is not capable of the level of knowledge or spirituality of a Marja. But that there are priorities in life and raising your children and acting as the fountain of knowledge in your own home brings better results than trying to influence the world. Hence being allowed to become a mujathid (highest level of islamic knowledge independently, thus not required to follow a marja).

If women could become marjas that would be another responsibility set on the woman to have her juggle with. If anyone has seen their own mom stressed out they would know how a full plate of responsibilities can affect a woman. And even in the case of a strong, calm woman the many distractions would ultimately take away from her children or her husband or her marja role.

Thus Allah in his infinite Logic did not make the Marja role an option, knowing that it is a heavy burden to carry on top of all the other roles naturally designed for the woman. [Don't tell me she doesn’t have to get married and have kids, because that is basics of life in islam]

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Women are deficient in intellect--something like that. I think there are others too I can't remember now.
Yes; he is not talking about the marja'iyyah, and his words were addressed to a specific situation and context, and not women marja's as a whole.

(salam)

I think the 80th sermon of nahjul balagh might be helpful for you to understand that more clearly where Commander of faith said

O' ye peoples! Women are deficient in Faith, deficient in shares and deficient in intelligence. As regards the deficiency in their Faith, it is their abstention from prayers and fasting during their menstrual period. As regards deficiency in their intelligence it is because the evidence of two women is equal to that of one man. As for the deficiency of their shares that is because of their share in inheritance being half of men. So beware of the evils of women. Be on your guard even from those of them who are (reportedly) good. Do not obey them even in good things so that they may not attract you to evils.

okay that was a particular occassion when imam Ali a.s said this, but what i think if you read it out of context Imam ALI a. was talking as whole

Edited by Qamar Abbas

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i cant imagine how a woman will rule about polygyny if she became a marji3 lolol

the next day the rule will be off the books

I know this is directed at me. I am not against polygamy, there are practical reasons for it. I support polygamy for those people who want it, including co-wives or the first wife. If they're happy, then I'm happy for them. You just WANT to hear that I, as a feminist, am against polygamy.

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(salam)

I think the 80th sermon of nahjul balagh might be helpful for you to understand that more clearly where Commander of faith said

O' ye peoples! Women are deficient in Faith, deficient in shares and deficient in intelligence. As regards the deficiency in their Faith, it is their abstention from prayers and fasting during their menstrual period. As regards deficiency in their intelligence it is because the evidence of two women is equal to that of one man. As for the deficiency of their shares that is because of their share in inheritance being half of men. So beware of the evils of women. Be on your guard even from those of them who are (reportedly) good. Do not obey them even in good things so that they may not attract you to evils.

okay that was a particular occassion when imam Ali a.s said this, but what i think if you read it out of context Imam ALI a. was talking as whole

Yes, I am open to examining the contexts and possibilities; but, I don't think it has been proven for sure that he meant Aisha only or a specific trait. Even if he meant a specific trait, he used the example of women; thus, perhaps women have it in greater frequency? Well, I'm not sure in any case.

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