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Ibn al-Hussain

Sunni View Supported By Shia Books

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Here's the prove from your own books. it proves Imamat is wrong ,,,, http://clearblogs.com/AllAboutGQ/43660/The...3039%3Bism.html

Ismaili Shia were majority. minority ithna Asharis became the majority after iran was invaded by the Alewi turks

salam alikum,

dear bro,the OP MEANT FOR US TO BRING FORTH PROOF ,,AS IN ACTUAL HADITHS THAT CAN PROVE SUNNI REFUT ON MENTIONED ISUES.

The nice looking website you gave ,,only looks nice but the info in it is like me reading "laala.faa.daa..blahhhh"

why you ask?

fairy tale ,,personnal opinion..NO PROOF..

i read it and here is a sampke from THAT website ,,that is NOT supported by sunni NOR SHIA HADITH.:

Trends

part one :

The cornerstone of the Shi‘i faith is the belief that the spiritual and temporal leadership of this Ummah after the demise of Rasulullah sallallahu ‘alayhi wasallam is vested in the Imam, who is appointed, like the Nabi sallallahu ‘alayhi wasallam himself, by Allah, and who enjoys all the distinctions and privileges of the Nabi sallallahu ‘alayhi wasallam.

However, they believe that Imamah, unlike Nubuwwah, can never come to an end. In this regard there is a well-known Shi‘i hadith which says that “the world cannot exist without an Imam”, and another which goes that “if the earth were to be without an Imam for a single day it would sink.”

There were four major trends amongst these various sects:

(1) There were those who accepted the death of Hasan al-Askari as a fact, and accepted also the fact that he left no offspring. To them Imamah had thus come to an end, just like Nubuwwah came to an end with the death of Rasulullah Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam . However, there were some amongst them who kept hoping for the advent of a new Imam.

(2) The second trend was one to which the student of the history of “succession to the Imamah” would be much more used to. This was the tendency to deny the death of Hasan al-Askari, and to claim that he would return in the future to establish justice upon earth. We have seen this tendency emerge amongst the Shi‘ah at more than one critical juncture in the history of the Imamah of the Shi‘ah; it is therefore only logical to expect it to resurface at a moment as critical as the death of Hasan al-Askari.

(3) The third trend was to extend the chain of Imamah to Hasan’s brother Ja‘far.

(4) The fourth trend was the claim that Hasan al-Askari did in fact have a son. It is the fourth trend which ultimately became the view of the dominant group in Shi‘ism.

SO here is my reply to each one :

part one:

sorry to burst the sunni bubble but it is not only shia that belive

in they believe that Imamah, unlike Nubuwwah, can never come to an end. In this regard there is a well-known Shi‘i hadith which says that “the world cannot exist without an Imam”, and another which goes that “if the earth were to be without an Imam for a single day it would sink.”

proof:

only some of the traditions about Imam al-Mahdi which Sunnis admit to their authenticity and existence:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Even if the entire duration of the world's existence has already been exhausted and only one day is left (before the day of judgment), Allah will expand that day to such a length of time, as to accommodate the kingdom of a person from my Ahlul-Bayt who will be called by my name. He will fill out the earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice and tyranny (by then)."

Sunni References:

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v2, p86, v9, pp 74-75

Sunan Abu Dawud, v2, p7

Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,376; V3, p63

al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn, by al-Hakim, v4, p557

Jami' al-Saghir, by al-Suyuti, pp 2,160

al-Urful Wardi, by al-Suyuti, p2

al-Majma', by al-Tabarani, p217

Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v9, p144

Fat'h al-Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by Ibn Hajar Asqalani, v7, p305

al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249

al-Tathkirah, by al-Qurtubi, p617

al-Hawi, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 165-166

Sharh al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah, by al-Zurqani, v5, p348

Fat'h al-Mugheeth, by al-Sakhawi, v3, p41

Kanz al-Ummal, v7 P186

Iqd al-Durar Fi Akhbar al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, v12, Ch. 1,

al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman, By Ganji al-Shafi'i, Ch. 12

al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki, Ch. 12

Arjahul Matalib, by Ubaidallah Hindi al-Hanafi, p380

Muqaddimah, by Ibn Khaldoon, p266

and also in the works of Ibn Habban, Abu Nua'ym, Ibn Asakir, etc.

answer to the sunni trends from sunni sources:

1-2-3 oh ok and 4:

need no answer these are such stupid trends with no back proof that do not need debating.

proof that al mahdi will be born is in sunni books:

link here with links to sunni tradition that imam al askarii sa,,had a son:

The contemporary Scholar, Safi Golpaygani, has collected all these traditions in his book: Muntakhab al-athar, citing their Sunni and Shi'i sources. Following is the list of the subject and the number of traditions on that subject:

http://www.al-islam.org/mahdi/nontl/Chap-5.htm

also:

Q6.

Who was the father of Imam al-Mahdi (as)?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Shia along with some Sunni scholars believe that his father was Imam Hasan al-Askari (d. 260/874). Below I have included the name of 31 Sunni scholars who confirm this fact. The overwhelming majority of prophetic traditions about Imam al-Mahdi (some of which I mentioned in the previous part) state that the name of Imam al-Mahdi is the same as the name of the Prophet (i.e., Muhammad). However there exists a single Sunni report that has an additional phrase concerning that "his father's name is also similar to that of the Prophet's father (i.e., Abdullah)." This extra phrase does NOT exist in all other reports transmitted by the Shia and the Sunni traditionists who narrated the Hadith. Moreover, the extra phrase in some Shi'i traditions is in the form of: "his nickname is the same as the Prophet's nickname (i.e., Abul Qasim)" which is correct. In fact, Sunnis narrated that:

The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "An issue will be born to you whom I have gifted him with my name and my nickname."

Sunni references:

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, p137

Sunan Abu Dawud, v4, p292

al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v4, p278 who said it is authentic based on the criteria of the two Shaikhs (i.e., al-Bukhari and Muslim)

Ma'arifat Ulum al-Hadith, by al-Hakim, p189

Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p95

Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p676, Tradition #1155

al-Tabaqat, by Ibn Sa'd, v5, p91

The single report which has the additional phrase (that his father's name is the same as that of the Prophet's father) has been probably fabricated by Abdullah Ibn al-Hasan (Muthanna -- the second) Ibn (Imam) al-Hasan (as). Abdullah (d. 145/762) had a son named Muhammad who called him "Nafs al-Zakiyyah" and the Mahdi. (See Ibn Taqtuqa, al-Fikr fi al-Adab al- Sultaniyyah, pp 165-166). Abdullah used all his power and wealth to support the revolt of his son. Abdullah concealed his son several times during the Umayad period when there was still no danger for him. When he was asked why he did this, he said: "What an idea, their time has not come yet." (Murooj al-Dhahab, by al-Mas'udi, v6, pp 107-108). In the first letter that Muhammad wrote to the Abbasid Caliph, al-Mansoor, he wrote: "From Muhammad Ibn Abdillah, the Mahdi, ..." (Tabari, v3, p29, Ibn Kathir V10, p85, Ibn Khaldoon, v4, p4).

Muhammad Ibn Abdillah started his claims at the end of the rule of the Umayad caliphs. Muhammad became powerful and tried to gain the support of the last Umayad Caliph who was Marwan Ibn Muhammad (132/750), but the Caliph did not pay attention to him:

Abul Abbas al-Falasti said to Marwan: "Muhammad Ibn Abdillah is striving to gain the power for he is claiming to be al-Mahdi". Marwan replied: "What does he have to do with me? (the Mahdi) is not him, nor any of his father's descendants. He will be the son of a slave woman."

Sunni Reference:

Maqatil al-Talibeen, by Abul Faraj al-Isbahani, Pub. in Saudi Arabia, pp 247,258

When Marwan said that al-Mahdi (as) is not one of his father's descendants, he meant the descendants of Imam al-Hasan (as), for al-Mahdi (as) is the descendant of Imam al-Husain (as) and is son of a slave woman (umm walad). Even Marwan was aware of these traditions because of which he did not pay attention to Muhammad Ibn Abdillah. This shows that the true versions of traditions from the Prophet were wide-spread at that time.

There is also a possibility that the fabrication of that extra phrase was done the Abbasid Caliph, Abdullah al-Mansoor, who called his son the Mahdi:

Muslim Ibn Qutaybah said: "Mansoor called me and said: Muhammad Ibn Abdillah rebelled and he called himself the Mahdi. By Allah he is not. I will tell you something else which I have told no one before, and will tell no one after you. By Allah my son is not the Mahdi either,... but I did so to make a good future for him."

Sunni Reference:

Maqatil al-Talibeen, by Abul Faraj al-Isbahani, Pub. in Saudi Arabia, pp 246-247

Also the Caliph al-Mansoor fabricated the following "tradition":

Ibn Abbas (allegedly) said: "These four are from us Ahlul-Bayt: al-Saffah, al-Mundhir, al-Mansoor, and al-Mahdi." (Recorded by al-Hakim).

It is clear that by fabricating the above reports, al-Mansoor was sorting the chain of Abbasid Caliphs and included his name and the name of his son, Mahdi, among Ahlul-Bayt! Ibn Abbas (ra) never uttered such words, and he himself is not among Ahlul-Bayt, let alone those Abbasid tyrants.

From all above it can be seen that the fabrication of the report which includes that extra phrase, could be reconciled on Muhammad Ibn Abdillah and/or the Abbasid Caliph, al-Mahdi. This is not the place to examine the Hadith critically, but merely to point out the historical background of it.

As I mentioned, some Sunni scholars rejected that single report. The following are the name of some Sunni scholars who wrote that Imam al-Mahdi has already been born, and is the only son of Imam Hasan al-Askari (as), and he is alive and in occultation, and will re-appear to establish the government of Justice. With this, they are in agreement with the Shia. Their names are:

1.

Kamal al-Din Ibn Talha, in his book "Matalib al-Su'aal Fi Manaqib Aal al-Rasool"

2.

Sulayman Ibn Ibrahim al-Qundoozi, al-Hanafi (known as Khawajah Kalan), in his book "Yanabi' al-Mawaddah" who has also established from important Sunni sources that love for Ahlul-Bayt is the only right path and the Islamic Way of Life.

3.

Abu Abdullah Muhammad Ibn Yusuf Ganji, al-Shafi'i, (d. 658 AH), the author of "Al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman" and "Kifayah al-Talib".

4.

Shaikh Nooruddin Ali Ibn Muhammad Ibn Sabbagh, al-Maliki, from Mecca, in his book "al-Fusool al-Muhimmah", pp 310,319.

5.

Ahmad Ibn Ibrahim Ibn Hashim al-Baladhuri is one of the great scholars and traditionists who also asserts the Imamat and occultation of the twelfth Imam in his book called "al-Hadith al-Mutasalsil"

6.

Ibn Arabi (Muhyiddin Muhammad Ibn Ali Ibn Muhammad al-Arabi), al-Hanbali, in his book "Al-Futuhat al-Makkia" (Chapter 366) discusses a detailed account of the birth of al-Mahdi, son of al-Askari (as), and of his re-appearance before the day of resurrection.

7.

Ibn Khashab (Abu Muhammad Abdullah Ibn Ahmad Ibn Ahmad Ibn Khashab), has given a detailed account of the twelfth Imam in his biographical book called "Tawarikh Mawaleed al-A'imma wa Wafiyatihim"

8.

Shaikh Abdullah Sha'rani (d. 905 AH), the celebrated Sufi, in his work "Yaqaqeet", Chapter 66, deals with the birth and the occultation of the twelfth Imam. Also He extensively talks about Imam al-Mahdi (as) in his other book "Aqa'id al-Akabir".

9.

Shaikh Hasan Iraqi who accepts the twelfth Imam, praises Sha'rani as a pious and a learned ascetic, and narrates the story of Sha'rani's meeting with the twelfth Imam.

10.

Sayyid Ali, known as Khawas, the teacher of Sha'rani, also a believer of the twelfth Imam, confirms what Shaikh Hasan asserted about the meeting of Sha'rani with the twelfth Imam.

11.

Nooruddin Abdul Rahman Ibn Ahmad, known as Mulla Jami, in his book Shawahid al-Nubuwwah (The Evidence of Prophethood of Muhammad) gives an account of the birth of the twelfth Imam and his statement is in complete agreement with the Shia records.

12.

Muhammad Ibn Mahmood al-Bukhari, al-Hanafi, known as Khawaja Parsa in his book "Fasl al-Khitab" gives the account of the birth, occultation, and re-appearance of the twelfth Imam.

13.

Shaikh Abdul Haq Dehlawi, in his book "Jazb e Qulub", narrates the statements of Hakima, the daughter of the ninth Imam who was asked by the eleventh Imam, Imam al-Askari, to stay with Narjis, mother of the last Imam during the night at the end of which she gave birth to her son.

14.

Sayyid Jamaluddin Husaini Muhaddith who is the author of the celebrated book "Rawdhat al-Ahbab". According to Dayar Bakri, Mulla Ali Qari, Abdul Haqq Dehlawi, "Rawdhat al-Ahbab" is one of the reliable sources of reference. The author mentions the twelfth Imam in the most reverential terms. He states:

The auspicious birth of the pearl of the Vicegerency and the precious form of the mine of guidance took place on the 15th of Sha'ban in the year of 225 AH at Samarra. He has described the Imam in the following words:

al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar (the expected Mahdi)

al-Khalaf al-Salih (the righteous successor)

Sahib al-Zaman (the master of the time)

15.

al-Arif Abdul Rahman Sufi, in his works "Mir'at al-Asrar" (The Mirror of Mysteries) gives a detailed account of the birth, and the occultation of the twelfth Imam.

16.

Ali Akbar, son of Asadullah Maududi, in his book Mukashifaat (Visions), which is a commentary on "Nafahat al-Uns" by Abdurrahman Jami, asserts the existence of the Mahdi as being the pole of guidance after his father Imam Hasan al-Askari, who was also the pole of guidance and Imamat.

17.

Malik al-Ulama Dulatabadi who is a well known scholar, in his work "Hidayat al-Saada" has confirmed the Imamat and the occultation of al-Mahdi.

18.

Nasr Ibn Ali Jahzami Nasri, one of the most reliable reporters of traditions whom Khateeb al-Baghdadi has praised him in his works on history, and Yusuf Ganji al-Shafi'i, in his book Manaqib has introduced Nasr as one of the masters of al-Bukhari and Muslim. Nasr asserts the existence of:

Qa'im Aale Muhammad (The 'Support' among the family of Muhammad), the one among the Imams of the House of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) whose duty is to establish Islam throughout the world.

19.

Mulla Ali Qari, one of the greatest traditionists, in his famous book, "Mirqat", talks about Imam al-Mahdi after mentioning the celebrated statement of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) that after him there would be twelve successors (Caliphs). Mulla Ali states whether they are in power or not makes no difference as they are the rightful Imams.

20.

Kazi Jawad Sibti was a Christian but later became a Muslim. He wrote "Baraheen Sibtiyya" (Proofs forwarded by Sibti), which is a refutation of the Christian writers. He narrates the Prophecy from Ashaya (Joshua) concerning the coming of a man from the chosen branch of the chosen lineage of Adam who would be the seat of the spirit. In other words, he will be filled with the spirit of wisdom, sympathy, justice and knowledge and he will be God fearing. God will bestow on him a sound and glorying reason and make him firm. His judgment would be based on hearing an external evidence, but he will have a guided insight about everything and judge people according to what they really are in their hearts. He further states that his method of judgment is peculiar to him and has not been adopted by any prophet or Vice-regent of God. The Muslims are unanimous that the Mahdi of this description shall be descendant of Fatimah, daughter of the holy Prophet (PBUH&HF). Particularly the view of the Shia seems to be real interpretation of this real prophecy.

21.

Sibt Ibn al-Jawzi, al-Hanafi, (Shams al-Din Abul Mudhaffar Yusuf), the author of "Tathkirat al-Khawas", pp 325-328 gives the names of 22 people believed by Muslims to have lived various ages from 3,000 down to 300 years! He also writes about the twelfth Imam as follows

He (al-Mahdi) is Muhammad Ibn al-Hasan Ibn Ali Ibn Muhammad Ibn Ali Ibn Musa al-Ridha

His title is Abu Abdillah and Abul Qasim

He is the last successor of the Prophet (PBUH&HF)

He is the Last Imam of the House

He is the authoritative proof of God (al-Hujjah)

He is the master of time (Sahib al-Zaman)

and he is the expected one (al-Muntadhar)

22.

Abu Bakr Ahmad Ibn Hasan al-Bayhaqi, the famous Shafi'i jurist, has confirmed the birth of the son of al-Askari and his being as the expected Mahdi.

23.

Shaikh Sadruddin, known as Hamavi, who has written a book about the Last Imam of the House of the Prophet (PBUH&HF). He quotes a tradition of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) as follows

Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The learned one among my followers are in the rank of the Prophets from among the Children of Israel", also referring to the twelve Naqeeb (chiefs)of the Children of Israel (see Quran 5:12). But the last Wali, who is the last of the successors of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) and who is the Twelfth Wali in the chain of Awliaa, is al-Mahdi, "Sahib al-Zaman", his appellation and title should not be used for any one else.

24.

Shaikh Ahmad Jami, (as quoted by Qundoozi, author of "Yanabi al- Mawaddah", and Qadhi Noorullah author of "Majalis al-Mu'mineen") has composed the following poem:

My heart is fine and bright with the love of Haydar

Next to Haydar, al-Hasan is our Guide and Leader.

The dust beneath the Shoes of al-Husain

is the eyeliner (surmah) for my eyes.

al-Abideen, the ornament of all devotees

is like a crown on my head.

al-Baqir is the light of both my eyes.

The religion of Ja'far is true and the path of Musa is right.

O, loyal, ones: listen to me praising the King of Kings (al-Ridha)

who is buried in Khurasan.

A particle from the dust of his tomb is the cure of all pains

Leader of men of faith is al-Taqi, O dear Muslims

If you love al-Naqi in preference to all other people,

you have done the thing which is proper and right.

al-Askari is the light of the eyes of both Adam and the world.

Where can be found, in the world,

such a chief in command like al-Mahdi?

25.

Shaikh Amir Ibn Basri has composed an eulogy called Qasidah Tayya. The composition contains theosophical lore, maxims, mystical points, and matter of etiquette. Here are some lines quoted:

O' Imam al-Mahdi! How long will You be hidden?

Oblige us, O' our father, with your return!

We feel sad the waiting time is prolonged.

For the sake of Thy Lord, bless us with your audience.

O the pole of being! Hasten, O our beloved!

Return, so that we may enjoy the sight.

Surely, it is a great a pleasure

for a lover to meet his beloved after a long absence.

26.

Husain Ibn Hamdan al-Husaini, in his book "al-Hidaya" mentions the twelfth Imam, the master of time, as the son of the eleventh Imam Hasan al-Askari.

27.

The well known biographer, Ibn Khallakan in his book "Wafayat al-A'ayan", has given a brief account of the birth of the Imam.

28.

Ibn al-Azraq, as quoted by Ibn Khallakan, asserts the existence of the twelfth Imam.

29.

Ibn al-Wardi the historian, in his work asserts the birth of the son of al-Askari in 255 AH.

30.

Sayyid Mu'min Shablanji in his work "Noor al-Absar" gives the genealogy of Imam Muhammad al-Mahdi (as), the twelfth Imam.

After these and many more, those who deny his birth and his present life have no proof against those who have accepted this fact, while they still recognize the correctness of traditions about Imam al-Mahdi. The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said:

"He who dies not knowing the Imam of his era, has died the death of al-Jahiliyya (Days of Ignorance; the era before Islam)."

CASE CLOSED

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Mufti, are you implying that shia is other than Islam???

A Shi'a? A Shi'a can be anything, doesn't necessitate being non-Muslim or being Muslim. One of your lot on this forum proudly posts with a statement that says Shi(an) Uthman will follow Dajjal. Obviously anybody who follows Dajjal is not Muslim. You have to clarify what you mean for me. I wasn't even talking about Shi'ism, I said (main part of my text),

It doesn't make sense to bring proof from something that the sects don't recognize at all, that came after the kutuwb of all of them. And even in the cases that we do, you don't accept them on the basis of such excuses as taqiyah. It's very easy to "prove" an incorrect view when text is deliberately misconstrued by the apologists for audiences of a different language. And it's very easy to "prove" an incorrect view when you deprive traditions of their context (the book itself) and their established meaning (shurooh) - and sometimes when you deprive the tradition of it's own context in your translations and nonsupporting citations

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A Shi'a? A Shi'a can be anything, doesn't necessitate being non-Muslim or being Muslim. One of your lot on this forum proudly posts with a statement that says Shi(an) Uthman will follow Dajjal. Obviously anybody who follows Dajjal is not Muslim. You have to clarify what you mean for me. I wasn't even talking about Shi'ism, I said (main part of my text),

It doesn't make sense to bring proof from something that the sects don't recognize at all, that came after the kutuwb of all of them. And even in the cases that we do, you don't accept them on the basis of such excuses as taqiyah. It's very easy to "prove" an incorrect view when text is deliberately misconstrued by the apologists for audiences of a different language. And it's very easy to "prove" an incorrect view when you deprive traditions of their context (the book itself) and their established meaning (shurooh) - and sometimes when you deprive the tradition of it's own context in your translations and nonsupporting citations

Your hadith's "context" comes from your later scholars; not even from al-Bukhari or Muslim.

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^^Sis Karbalah that is one of best refutations I have read all day. You being an ex-sunni comes in handy in these debates.

Great job!

:blush:

thnx bro was away for a while ,,but I see somethings never change,,I have yet to read a refute based on facts rather than alice in wonder land stories.

my reply to sunni bro ,,was in hope that he actually reads his given proofs,,

proof requires evidence,,,

3-

i challenge him to give m one evidence on his :

dasayy @ Aug 24 2008, 10:14 PM) *

Here's the prove from your own books. it proves Imamat is wrong ,,,, http://clearblogs.com/AllAboutGQ/43660/The...3039%3Bism.html

Ismaili Shia were majority. minority ithna Asharis became the majority after iran was invaded by the Alewi turks

;)

1-A Shi'a? A Shi'a can be anything, doesn't necessitate being non-Muslim or being Muslim. One of your lot on this forum proudly posts with a statement that says Shi(an) Uthman will2- follow Dajjal. Obviously anybody who follows Dajjal is not Muslim. You have to clarify what you mean for me. I wasn't even talking about Shi'ism, I said (main part of my text),

3-It doesn't make sense to bring proof from something that the sects don't recognize at all, that came after the kutuwb of all of them. And even in the cases that we do, you don't accept them on the basis of such excuses as taqiyah. It's very easy to "prove" an incorrect view when text is deliberately misconstrued by the apologists for audiences of a different language.4- And it's very easy to "prove" an incorrect view when you deprive traditions of their context (the book itself) and their established meaning (shurooh) - and sometimes when you deprive the tradition of it's own context in your translations and nonsupporting citations

(bismillah)

salam alikum dear bro,,

interesting response but again i request that you support your opinion if it is a personnal opinion or a taught one with some sources or examples ,,,

1- ditto,,not al shia are true Muslims,,not all sunni are lovers of al el biet,,,some hindo will EAT cow meat ,,

it follows individual beliefs,,just bec your sect dictates your shia/sunni/hindo,,does notmean you practice that faith.

good point you made. saddam was a sunni,,,but he was not a muslim.;)

2- ummm...this dajal thing ,,,i need to clarify :

shia,,,means followers of al el biet,,meaning follow of the path that the prophet saaw asked us to ,,ie,,his family sa

you know imam ali,sa,,al housssain sa,,al hassan sa,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,al mahdi sa....

so shia when dajal is here ,,the "real believers )not hindu that eat cow meat believers like).." will follow imam mahdi ,,that is what we pray for and ask for and wait for :)

any shia that tels u I will follow dajal,,means he does will not follow imam mahdi sa,,means he is not follower of al el biet sa .!!!!!!

3-you are kind of right here ,,it really is a waste of sunni time to bring proof to shia from their books,,bec and i hate to be one to tell you this,,but its been debated before,,,we have proven about over 100 times that these sources are highly questionable..as in the those who wrote them

ex boukhari

and said them

ex abu hourarirah

this is an example since both sources have also been scrutinized and refuted byy other sunni scholars,,so it it not taqiyah ,,it is more like,,

bring us shia hard proof from a non questionable source to BOTH sunni and shia ,,and lets discuss

but if you telme abu hourrairah said..I will tell you aisha,,beat him and called him a liar get me someone else!!

nothing to do with taqiyah

4-100 % right ,,that is what most sunni actually do !!!!!

"

prove" an incorrect view when you deprive traditions of their context (the book itself) and their established meaning

example :

sunni views can only be traced to boukhari and sahih muslim and those scolars who came at least 100 years after the prophet,,

shia do not deprive thems,,but shia debate them

you see,,i am willing to challenge you on any issue that diverts us shia from sunni,,,

and Iwill not deprive you of using your hadith.

i really do want you to use your tradition to explain one thing for me .

why do you belive in sahih al boukhari and muslim and abu hourariah more than imam ali sa?????????

why do sunni schools teach hadiths of aisha on how she and the prophets saaw used to wash rather than study and decode the secrest to the treasures of naju al balaghah for imam ali sa?

why do i not find books on hadiths for imam ali sa and al houssain in suni schools?????????

prove,,and I will not deprive you ,,bring me all your sunni traditions and sunni scholars ,,,and use all the resources that you have,,give me one Koranic verse OR sunni hadith OR sunni story

that proves that at anytime ,,in history ,,during and after the prophet ,,imam ali sa,,,was NOT the bravest of all three( omar abu baker and othman)

the most knowledgeable ...or even most loved by the prophet...

there is no hadith and if there is bring it that proves abu baker was braver than imam ali sa

there is no hadith that proves he was more knowledgeable

yet there are hadiths that proves otherwise.

so why follow the least brave and knowledgeable of the2?

give me one hadith or 10 that proves abu baker was more knowledgeable than imam ali or more brave..

I will not deprive you o list them and I promise you to debate not refute.

Edited by karbalah

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salam alikum dear bro,,

wa 'alaikum asalaam

good point you made. saddam was a sunni,,,but he was not a muslim.;)

He wasn't Sunni while he was kafr, the Sunna ulema did takfeer of him, regardless of his good deeds.

(2)

2- ummm...this dajal thing ,,,i need to clarify :

No, you don't. I'm well-aware of that. Aaliyah was (implying) that I was breaking rules :)

that is what we pray for and ask for and wait for

You pray and ask to follow the alleged mohammad ibn hasan al askari.

any shia that tels u I will follow dajal

Well, no Shi'i would say that. The 12er here who uses that quote in his sig is just insulting Sunna' since Sunna' respect Sahaba.

(3)

-you are kind of right here ,,it really is a waste of sunni time to bring proof to shia from their books,,bec and i hate to be one to tell you this,,but its been debated before,,,we have proven about over 100 times that these sources are highly questionable..as in the those who wrote them

ex boukhari

and said them

ex abu hourarirah

I won't delve into this, and that's besides the point. When Sunna' reply by a quote from Bukhari (and not 12er books) it's to establish the context of whatever quotation you 12ers are taking out of context. For example, lets say you quote the hadith al kisa from Bukhari. Than Sunna will correct the context (that you took it out of) by quoting the hadith of nikah or the hadith of the allegation (on 'Aisha).

bring us shia hard proof from a non questionable source to BOTH sunni and shia ,,and lets discuss

There's no such thing. I can do that with Zaydiya Shi'a. I can do that with Ibadiya. But you guys recognize none of the same books with the exception of Qur'aan and than you don't accept the same tafsir because you believe in alteration of position (etc.)

nothing to do with taqiyah

No, if I quote Shi'i books from one of the four main Shi'i books than you will say taqiyah. If you will not say taqiyah, your ulema will.

(4)

4-100 % right ,,that is what most sunni actually do !!!!!

You know, that's funny since I've exposed (repeatedly) you guys doing that. Whether individual members or the apologists on Answering-Ansar...

and Iwill not deprive you of using your hadith.

Don't worry, for the points I want to make and when I set the challenge, I can easily use 12er traditions...

why do you belive in sahih al boukhari and muslim and abu hourariah more than imam ali sa?????????

If you bring me one thing sahih from 'Ali (ra) that he rejects Bukhari and Muslim, I will renounce Bukhari and Muslim also.

why do sunni schools teach hadiths of aisha on how she and the prophets saaw used to wash rather than study and decode the secrest to the treasures of naju al balaghah for imam ali sa?

Fiqh is more important than later-day fabrications and Sunna are the only one's who do real critical study of Nahjul Balagha. 12er websites USE Sunni research on it for takhrij...

why do i not find books on hadiths for imam ali sa and al houssain in suni schools?????????

Did you see (you're 'Arabi right?) study by fnoor on ahadith in Al Kafi compared with Sahiheen?

prove,,and I will not deprive you ,,bring me all your sunni traditions and sunni scholars ,,,and use all the resources that you have,,give me one Koranic verse OR sunni hadith OR sunni story

that proves that at anytime ,,in history ,,during and after the prophet ,,imam ali sa,,,was NOT the bravest of all three( omar abu baker and othman)

the most knowledgeable ...or even most loved by the prophet...

We don't do comparison of Sahaba in this kind of way.

give me one hadith or 10 that proves abu baker was more knowledgeable than imam ali or more brave..

I will not deprive you o list them and I promise you to debate not refute.

Why would I enter a discussion where I don't set the agenda or have one that I don't mind? And a discussion on 'bravery' for example is simply not a rational debate, it becomes one about emotions and opinions. Favorite discussions I'm interested in = not allowed here :D

Edited by MohammadMufti

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wa 'alaikum asalaam

salam alikum

He wasn't Sunni while he was kafr, the Sunna ulema did takfeer of him, regardless of his good deeds.

(2)

he was sunni from sunni tribes,,( again it is not a religous stamp ,,nor identity ) just in name ,,since he was no muslim.

No, you don't. I'm well-aware of that. Aaliyah was (implying) that I was breaking rules :)

no harm ther :)

You pray and ask to follow the alleged mohammad ibn hasan al askari.

I have proof for ya,,,there is no " alleged about it ";)

we follow the whole line dear bro,,,,,from mohammed saaw downwards;)

ie,,prohet saaw and family :)

Well, no Shi'i would say that. The 12er here who uses that quote in his sig is just insulting Sunna' since Sunna' respect Sahaba.

(3)

hummm,,,i see your point,,,,but hope you see mine,,

we respct you as a person,,but shia do not realy hold sahab in good graces..for reasons we debate now and thn..

we belive according to shi-sunni hadith and quran ,,there are 2 paths you could follow,,,

hizb Allah sawt

ir hizb al shytan

it is in koran ,,we can opne new topic

and hiszb Allah sawt is hizb that included his prophet saaw and those who donate while praying (imam lai sa and al mou2mennin)

the other path is loosers path

so we follow mohammad saaw imam ali sa,,and those who came after ,,( ie not before imam ali as in abu baker omar and othman)

so you follow prophet saaw and imam ali ,,or the other team?

I won't delve into this, and that's besides the point. When Sunna' reply by a quote from Bukhari (and not 12er books) it's to establish the context of whatever quotation you 12ers are taking out of context. For example, lets say you quote the hadith al kisa from Bukhari. Than Sunna will correct the context (that you took it out of) by quoting the hadith of nikah or the hadith of the allegation (on 'Aisha).

it is not besides the point it is the point,,,

me ,,myslef,,an ex sunni,,,,...I never ever take anything out of context,,i copy and past sunni haditsh as is and ask sunni to make some sens of them

hadith of alegation on aisha,,I can also give you proof from quran

and more than one hadith

you see bro,,say a shia takes sunni hadith (one sunni hadith) out of context but can we do thsi for 3 or 4 sunni hadith that deal with smae issue

I usualy try to go for more than one source if you see my posts...

and trust me I never waste time taking hadiths out of contexts.

There's no such thing. I can do that with Zaydiya Shi'a. I can do that with Ibadiya. But you guys recognize none of the same books with the exception of Qur'aan and than you don't accept the same tafsir because you believe in alteration of position (etc.)

debatable dear bro,,,,,the alterations or tafseer

you want to discuss ibn katheer in sunni conext without going out of conetxt?

why would I belive him when I have tafseer imam ali sa????

and why is it when I give you a sunni koran tafseer for iben katheer ,,that proves s hai view,,like al el biet and mouta3a,,you do not belive and need a back up hadiths to fortify it ?? mut3a in ibn kather tafseer ,,then hadith that forbids it ???

No, if I quote Shi'i books from one of the four main Shi'i books than you will say taqiyah. If you will not say taqiyah, your ulema will.

(4)

no I will not

and 4 man shi books,,,

see this is were you are majorly mislead dear brothers

any shia here can el you that shia have more than 4 main books

where did you get 4 from???????

You know, that's funny since I've exposed (repeatedly) you guys doing that. Whether individual members or the apologists on Answering-Ansar...

I have never seen a shia exposed,,,post me an example,,,,bec thru all my debates,,sunni back out due to not dperivation but lack of evidence

Don't worry, for the points I want to make and when I set the challenge, I can easily use 12er traditions...

please,,,be my guest.......

set one,,,use sunni and shia and hindu ,,,but go thru till the end.

If you bring me one thing sahih from 'Ali (ra) that he rejects Bukhari and Muslim, I will renounce Bukhari and Muslim also.

you see,,,,I can bring you sunni proofs from sunni scholars who renouced them,,,,,since no sunni ,,or sunni follwer will ever use a saying of imam ali sa that renouces the base of their belifs..

you gave yourslef proof here

since when do boukhari or muslim care about imam ali sa teaching ?

the sahih say that their is a hadith where omar says if not for ima ali sa omar would be a goner,,

but unless I need to review them..majority hadith are by hourarah ,,aisha,,and some other names,,,,

and dear bro .....I can give you more than one sahih thing from ima ali sa on abu baker and omar and wht they did to him,,will you renounce them ?

give me time and I wil get you somthing as well.

Fiqh is more important than later-day fabrications and Sunna are the only one's who do real critical study of Nahjul Balagha. 12er websites USE Sunni research on it for takhrij...

what fabrications,,

as far as shia and sunnu are concerend there is only one naghulalabalagh,,from its name you'll see it is not easy to fabricate such intricate and genius wrting supported by quran and hadith.

your knowledge is very limitted on our shcolars dear bro and how shia study hadith....

if sunni did 0.1% of the way shai study hadith ,,,you will not find haditsh such as moses sa running nakes after a stone,,,or abu hourarah saying he made thsi hadith from his own "bag "

I need to go pray ,,,but you did not naswer me you did the same thing you said shia do

I am not asking you to bring fabricated shia hadith

I am asking you to bring sahih sunni hadith the proves abu baker had more knwolegde ,,more wisdom,,or was braver than imam ali

one hadith,,that puts them both in same conext and but abu baker ahead ???

Did you see (you're 'Arabi right?) study by fnoor on ahadith in Al Kafi compared with Sahiheen?

nope,,list it or post link ,,

We don't do comparison of Sahaba in this kind of way.

in what way then??

if your mother is dying of cancer and you have 4 doctors ,,,according to the one who knows best which dr will you go to to save your rmothers life???

Why would I enter a discussion where I don't set the agenda or have one that I don't mind? And a discussion on 'bravery' for example is simply not a rational debate, it becomes one about emotions and opinions. Favorite discussions I'm interested in = not allowed here :D

see bro ,,you run out of good answers here...tssk I am disappointed....

you majored bravery with emotions while bravery back then ,,was measured in fighting for what is right ,,against what is evil ,,,

you knwo ,,islam.

I am talking about knowldge ,,where if you needed a resolution on a life or death matter ,,,and you need a wise man ,,with " knowledge",,who woudl you go to????

very very simple question ,,,,

I am willing to give you sunni hadith in context about imam ali wisdom and knowledge in islam and shariah issues.

and that he knew better than the other three

can you prove opposite??

no emotions,,,just hard facts?

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mufti, my question arises from this "accept Islam like bro TahaSyed" It's pretty well known that Br. TahaSyed finally decided on sunni, but was shia prior, and sunni prior to that... so I'm wondering if you're talking about his acceptance of Islam in general, or whether you were differentiating and implying that him being shia and then going to sunni was when he accepted 'Islam'.... which would lead me to believe that you are saying being shia is not the same as following a path of Islam/being Muslim. Please clarify, and stop dodging the question which was pretty clear the first time.

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very very simple question ,,,,

I am willing to give you sunni hadith in context about imam ali wisdom and knowledge in islam and shariah issues.

and that he knew better than the other three

can you prove opposite??

no emotions,,,just hard facts?

That's not hard facts, knowledge has several branches, in some branches 'Ali was outstanding, in others, other people were more knowledgeable. Today your ulema say "obligatory precaution". What's the purpose of that? The Muqallid trusts his aalim to be very knowledge, perhaps the most knowledgeable, but on those specific cases he can go to someone with more knowledge of the specialization. I go to a chemist for chemistry and I go to an archaeologist for archaeologist so each person has a specific field. So it's not about hard facts, you're asking about knowledge (which you take it from all the different Sahaba and attribute it all to this one single individual) which is not just one simple thing. The ahadith say so-and-so was knowledgeable, but the context (of what kind of knowledge they had) is found in other ahadith often in the same book...

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mufti, my question arises from this "accept Islam like bro TahaSyed" It's pretty well known that Br. TahaSyed finally decided on sunni, but was shia prior, and sunni prior to that... so I'm wondering if you're talking about his acceptance of Islam in general, or whether you were differentiating and implying that him being shia and then going to sunni was when he accepted 'Islam'.... which would lead me to believe that you are saying being shia is not the same as following a path of Islam/being Muslim. Please clarify, and stop dodging the question which was pretty clear the first time.

Clever of you to leave out that he was 12er first which you omitted, became Sunni and was wavering and considered himself 12er again and finally became Sunna (Maliki) which he is on now. Not everybody in this forum would know that so they'd just take your hole-filled recollection on it's own merit.

As for what I said, I didn't mean that Shi'ism is kufr as an asl hukm if that's what you mean.

Edited by MohammadMufti

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I didn't give a 'hole filled recollection', as shown by proof before. And might I add, I notice whenever you play this game of semantics, it doesn't change the question or answer one whit, and instead leaves you looking extremely arrogant and insulting.

and just for the record, he himself stated here he was raised salafi (see here http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...0&p=499876) in the statement "Alhamdulillah, I chose shiism after being a salafi sunni all my life"

so who'se giving incorrect statements now?

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and just for the record, he himself stated here he was raised salafi (see here http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...0&p=499876) in the statement "Alhamdulillah, I chose shiism after being a salafi sunni all my life"

so who'se giving incorrect statements now?

My apologies than. I wasn't here that long I guess, when I remember him from he was 12er, to Sunna, than he was wavering and became 12er (see his question for Modaressi) and than he rested on Maliki madhab. I wasn't aware of before that.

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Salaam brother,

I understand your point and frustration when you ask the non-Shi'a members to bring forward evidence to refute the 2nd list you stated. I'll tell you why it's difficult for me to do so, I'm not speaking for the other non-Shi'a on the site..

It's simply because I've never had the need to look into your books. See, what we agree on, the 1st list, is in our books. But the 1st list isn't a things of "Shi'a-specific beliefs". Most (if not all) non-Shi'a all know the stories and history behind the 1st list; and so we stop there. But the 2nd list is the "Shi'a-specific" things that become hazy, depending on which non-Shi'a you ask. I was raised to believe that Abu Talib did, indeed, convert on his death-bed to Islam. Something to the effect of (non-verbatim), "..my faith is the faith of Muhammad (pbuh)...his Allah is my Allah". Now, obviously some things are more controversial than others...Mut'ah being one. But what you ask for is for us to bring evidence, in your books, that mut'ah is wrong. And I personally cannot do that until I really sit down and study your books, not just read a quoted hadith on this site..

I hope your seeing my point and that this was helpful.. :)

Salams bro

I see your point. From a sunni muslim's perspective, I think one point to consider is that they are raised with primary focus on practical programs of Islam such as Salat , Roza , Zakaat , Hajj e.t.c Whereas there is little interest and encouragement by sunni scholars to research Islamic history, Islamic beliefs and their logic & reasoning. On the contrary, there is a lot of emphasis on Islamic history and beliefs in the shia school of thought. Furthermore, the flexibility and encouragement in shia school of thought to explore other texts allows their scholars to refer to sunni as well as shia texts to strengthen their argument. This makes their research and their efforts very convincing and worth value. I believe, if such a trend is encouraged in sunni school of thought as well, we will find many worthwhile discussions between the two school of thoughts.

Fi-Amanillah

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My apologies than. I wasn't here that long I guess, when I remember him from he was 12er, to Sunna, than he was wavering and became 12er (see his question for Modaressi) and than he rested on Maliki madhab. I wasn't aware of before that.

you never answered my question !

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you never answered my question !

You had said:

very very simple question ,,,,

I am willing to give you sunni hadith in context about imam ali wisdom and knowledge in islam and shariah issues.

and that he knew better than the other three

can you prove opposite??

And you said we will use narrations of Sunna' that are authentic (and I saw only sahih by ijma). So, I will answer your question once you respond to my statement, knowledge has different aspects, knowledge of one thing and knowledge of another thing, and I will with ease show Sahaba with greater knowledge than 'Ali in specific fields and we will divide the concept of knowledge in that manner into different fields of knowledge unless you can show from authentic Sunnah hadith that 'Ali has superiority in knowledge of all matters. We have to have agreement on the premise before I can answer a specific...

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You had said:

very very simple question ,,,,

I am willing to give you sunni hadith in context about imam ali wisdom and knowledge in islam and shariah issues.

and that he knew better than the other three

can you prove opposite??

And you said we will use narrations of Sunna' that are authentic (and I saw only sahih by ijma). So, I will answer your question once you respond to my statement, knowledge has different aspects, knowledge of one thing and knowledge of another thing, and I will with ease show Sahaba with greater knowledge than 'Ali in specific fields and we will divide the concept of knowledge in that manner into different fields of knowledge unless you can show from authentic Sunnah hadith that 'Ali has superiority in knowledge of all matters. We have to have agreement on the premise before I can answer a specific...

ok,,i accept your challenge with no mock,,bec i studied sahihs when i was sunni,,,,,i need to knwo which aspect were they better or had more knwoledge and wisdom,,

lets start with abu baker ,,give me one example of each and support with a story and a hadiths from sahih,,,

which filed was abu baker better or had more wisdom than imam ali sa???

i will agree with you that knowledge and to measure how good someon is we have to evaluate on many fields,,,give me those you have 100% green light to go ahead and set thsoe parameters,,and we will debate them.

:)

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ok,,i accept your challenge with no mock,,bec i studied sahihs when i was sunni,,,,,i need to knwo which aspect were they better or had more knwoledge and wisdom,,

May I ask under whom you studied? Or were you self-taught, went along the ahadith and made your own sharh for each one until you became Shi'i?

lets start with abu baker ,,give me one example of each and support with a story and a hadiths from sahih,,,

Wouldn't it be more appropriate for me to select the Companions and their fields of knowledge since I'll be the one bringing up the traditions? If you agree with this (I can bring the ahadith about different Sahaba, that I select the Sahaba) than I will proceed with the one's I already know and bring those and look for some more under the multitude of categories that fall under 'ilm? Fair enough?

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May I ask under whom you studied? Or were you self-taught, went along the ahadith and made your own sharh for each one until you became Shi'i?

choice.

Wouldn't it be more appropriate for me to select the Companions and their fields of knowledge since I'll be the one bringing up the traditions? If you agree with this (I can bring the ahadith about different Sahaba, that I select the Sahaba) than I will proceed with the one's I already know and bring those and look for some more under the multitude of categories that fall under 'ilm? Fair enough?

1-I lived in kuwait till 86 ,,studied religeon in kuwaiti schools ,,,but took courses from sahari sunni from age 12 to 16 then took some courses ynder habashi in lebanon beirut if you want name of the ia i will tell u i do not have one since it was sister gathering with our teacher maarried to an imam ,,I can get you his name

in lebanon religeon is not taught at school but you can join a mosque sugn up with sisters and go to nadwa,,I chose saharis but i read and went to some habashi gathering (sisters only ) Nizar al Halabi was killed by another mAJOR SUNNI SECT MADE HE START HAVING DOUBTS ABOUT BOTH

2- yes please do ,,,fair

just to let you know i studied omars virtues and abu baker when i was nine yrs before i heard about imam ali sa

I could tell you stories no shia would know about thier deeds unless they studied them and at some point respected them.

BORN TO SUNNI FAMILY,lived sunni country,moved to lebanon,,,coverted to shia fromm sahari sunni by choice

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Let me get this straight.

The Lion of Allah would sit back and let the caliph be taken? He wouldnt fight for the caliph if he though it was his right?

Audo billah minish shaytonir rajeem, May you have more respect for Ali.

okay, lets say imam ali did fight for his caliph. describe to me the potential aftermath...

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Let me get this straight.

The Lion of Allah would sit back and let the caliph be taken? He wouldn't fight for the caliph if he though it was his right?

Audo billah minish shaytonir rajeem, May you have more respect for Ali.

some stories say that the sahab tried to attack imam ali's house,,the GANGED UP ,,on him and bibi fatimah ,,,so GANG being 1st key word here

if you were more open minded ,,,i could give you a detailed story on what happened that dark night

what you will see

1- gang attack on the house of the prophet saaw( means they have no fear no respect and their brains couldl no longer see reason )

would you attack the house of fatimah sa?

2- their number when they went with fire sticks to her house,,was 3 to 4 times the number of the people in side the house

you see shia believe there was a MAJOR plan prepared and planned to win the caliphate and nothing not even fear of Allah sawt and alleged love of the prophet would stop them ,,they started spreading and getting and paying to get their number high ,,ready for war

how else would you explain the attack right after the prophet died saaw?

how else would you explain the fact that whil the prophet saaw was still warm ,,they rode their horse like bats out of hell to al saqifa to fight for calipahet while imam ali sa was not there,, he sa was busy with burying the prophet saaw.

so dear bro

1- you have a mad gang

2- they attack you in higher numbers than you are at that time ,,

3- attack you while your grieving a deeeeeeeeeeeeep loss

4- come at you fast

so would you walk into a mad lions den ??

imam ali ,,and saw what you do not see now

division of muslims

massacre by those claiming to be sahaba inorder to keep what hey stole .

if they attacked the prophet house and missed his burial

would they hesitate to create a thrid world war against the true muslims at that time??

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