Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
al-khoei12

Let's Discuss Sayed Fadlullah

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

If you are going to sit and tell me that you did not pass a judgement on most people who follow him, then I don't know what to say. The above quote was clearly a judgement.

Can you tell me whether you are right or not? I know you can't, because I know you do not have a survey of thousands of people. So since you can't prove whether you are right, why did you make the accusation?

Of course, I haven't.

Can you prove it that it was an accusation? Can you prove it wrong? I know most (if not all, then most) of them follow him because of his "feel-good" fatawa as well as his 'rational' takes on important issues on Shi'ism (most of which he has rejected).

I did not pass a judgement on you, I only told you what you did, and then I gave you Imam Sadiqs a.s. advice against what you did.

If you can't prove the above, then I can say the same thing as bluntly as you did.

Knowledge is the qualification.

Okay, I know many brothers/sisters who are knowledgeable here. Would you follow them?

I have already given proof for his marja3iyah from others testifying to his knowledge and level of ijtihad.

Why are there doubts on his credentials then?

Sayyid Sistani was in Najaf, a city where there is usually one top scholar, like Sayyid Khoei r.a. was, this is why he was endorsed in this way. This does not mean that he would not have become a marja if he was not endorsed to be the next leader, it simply means that he was endorsed to be the top person to keep the marja3iyah alive.

Yes, that is why I said there is a whole lot of difference between what you posted and what I did. Sayyed Sistani was endorsed to be the next successor and it is also mentioned (if you missed it) In the same year, he was awarded a permit by Imam Al-Khu'i and another by Shayk Hilli, certifying that he had attained the level of (ijtihad)- deduction of legal judgment in matters of religion.

Whereas, for Fadlallah neither was there any endorsement nor any mention of permit given.

Again I ask, can you post the same thing from Bayynat? And can you post a list of who were his teachers and who all gave him ijaza or approval of ijtihad? As I said, I want to see how many of his teachers gave him ijaza or their approval of his ijtihad. If you can post this, then I will be satisfied that he at least got the approval or the ijaza from his teachers.

Not that it matters to me, but at least I won't debate on this anymore because of clear-cut proof.

The part you quoted from bayynat only tells us at what point that Sayyid Fadlallah decided to become a marja. I really don't know why you're reading so much into it.

Well, I didn't know you become a marja when you start answering people's queries by issuing your own fatawa. I was under the impression that you undertook more studies to become a marja.

It is also worth noting that he did not immediately start issuing his fatawa when he migrated to Lebanon. He would solve people's queries by giving them the fatawa of other Maraje.

This discussion is starting to get repetitive and unproductive. Even though you dont want an apology I am sorry if you feel insulted by me, insulting you is furthest from my intentions, but you should realize that what you said was a clear judgement, if you did not mean it in that way that it appeared then you should at least reword what you said. But I think that if I told you "most people who follow Sayyid Sistani only do so blindly because most others do, and they dont even care if he's the most knowledgable or not" - you would call that a judgement that is untrue, and it definetly is untrue.

Again I repeat, I would advise everyone to completely research into the credentials of a marja/mujtahid before deciding on one.

I wouldn't encourage people to blindly pick and choose any marja but to research and then decide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam Alaikum

Salam

I see everybody discussing fiqh issues here as if they have some authority. I don't think any of us have the right to criticise fatwas individually with regards to Seyyid Fadhlallah.

I used to do taqleed of Seyyid Fadhlallah and have met him on one occasion. He is a lovely man. However the issue I have with him is the way he uses opinion over hadith. Seyyid Khoei was one of the greatest meraj' to ever exist and he would always put a weak hadith against his own opinion. On the other hand Seyyid Fadhlallah ignores hadiths and uses qiyas. Just have a read through his books and see how he uses qiyas (often with science) and ignores quran and hadith.

The problem we have with Seyyid Fadhlallah is not him as an individual, he is a great guy. The fundamental problem is the method by which he derives laws and now the laws themselves.

Hassan

That is also my finding. I don't have any animosity with him, I don't know him personally, but by other people's witness, I believe he is a good person. In the face of criticism from sincere people, his followers tend to believe that it is just a personal or political grudge against him, which is of course nonsense.

I have the same issue which you have with his type of ijtihad. I posted before a serious and obvious inconsistency to which I have received no satisfactory reply from his followers nor from his office. People are not appreciating the responsibility of a marja and and seriousness of this error by Sayyed Fadhlullah.What I deduce from such instances is that he takes his pre-conceived ideology first and foremost, such as friendship with Ahlus-Sunnah, before any objective and constructive analysis of our sources of ahadeeth.

Wassalam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(salam)

There are not even 34 confirmed, like I said a lot of those emails are misleading questions, or questions that have nothing to do with Sayyid Fadlallah at all.

If you do not believe he is a marja, then that is fine, do not follow him. But there are mujtahids who approve of his ijtihad, and people have their own minds to think. Even if 34 were against him, I dont think us shias like it when Sunnis use their numbers as proof against Shia Islam, or when Christians do the same with Islam. Shia Islam does not run on ijma3 (majority) , this is a Sunni way of doing things, and it is one of the big differences between the way the Shias and Sunnis determine things, and it is also why we have the system of ijtihad.

you are right bro,,I agree with completely ,,it is not a maater of numbers,,that is why I gave storng names and hard core eveidence on thier opposition ,,but I am not able to attach it ,,i am getting in touch witha bro that might help me,,

it is not number only it is quality

I have no doubt where sayed sistani stands or al hakim or alsadr or al khoei bec I saw ,,and I called.

but I really do not want you to take my word for it,,bec for all you know I wld be an undercover fitna creator ,,anyone can come here and write

34...100....500 say he is bad and I called all of them

my simple request is bec there are 34 or 13 or 50 ,,,you ,,dear bro ,,and anyone who follows sayed fadullah have to call ,,,pick any three you have no doubt in your heart are deemed marje3,,what have you to fear ?

after all taqleed is based on what your heart feels comfort to and in you assessment is a valid one,,( including 2 other ulama to vouch)

you are happy with the list he gave you ,,,and all I am saying is

bec there might or might not other who oppose it

pick three ulama you have faith and there must be ,,,

and call,,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My last word:

The brother has reported that the research has been done by him already, some time ago. You don't like the results, so you argue about it.

Basically, as I see it, the conservative Fadlallah haters are walking a huge contradiction. If you ask them what are the requirements to be a mujtahid, they'll tell you: "Two recognized mujtahids vouch for you, and you're good." But then when it comes to Fadlallah, it's a whole different story. "Yeah, sure, more than two support him, but what about the ones that don't support him?"

Subhanallah. Pick a story and stick with it. If the system says once two support you, you're part of the marjaiyyat, then the real question is why these other maraja' disrespect the institution by continued questioning when someone has fulfilled the requirements. Those who keep repeating, like a tape recording, that "this isn't political" seem to me a bit naive. If there was a real problem with Fadlallahs ideas, scholars wouldn't be funding Wahhabi-style sites like zalaal. The fact that they use lies to supposedly pursue truth should set off alarm bells in the mind of any rational person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

Sister spizo, Im not going to answer your post because I already have a number of times, so I'm not going to sit and go in circles, life goes on.

Salam

I see everybody discussing fiqh issues here as if they have some authority. I don't think any of us have the right to criticise fatwas individually with regards to Seyyid Fadhlallah.

I used to do taqleed of Seyyid Fadhlallah and have met him on one occasion. He is a lovely man. However the issue I have with him is the way he uses opinion over hadith. Seyyid Khoei (ra) was one of the greatest meraj' to ever exist and he would always put a weak hadith against his own opinion. On the other hand Seyyid Fadhlallah ignores hadiths and uses qiyas. Just have a read through his books and see how he uses qiyas (often with science) and ignores quran and hadith.

The problem we have with Seyyid Fadhlallah is not him as an individual, he is a great guy. The fundamental problem is the method by which he derives laws and now the laws themselves.

Hassan

(salam) brother Hassan,

Sayyid Fadlallah mentions the weakness of certain hadiths in his opinion, and then he also gives a logical reason to why the hadith may be weak. He does not simply disagree with something and give his opinion, he uses the science of hadith, although he may have different opinions on certain narrators, and this could be the cause for some differences, however there are many hadiths which he mentions as weak and everybody else agrees they are also weak, yet the other scholars have their own respected reasons for continuing to believe in certain things.

As for qiyaas, please look at post 93 where I posted an email I recieved from the Sayyids office. If you can't read the arabic, it says that the Sayyid does not use any qiyaas in his fatwas, and qiyaas is not allowed in our madhhab.

Salam Alaikum

That is also my finding. I don't have any animosity with him, I don't know him personally, but by other people's witness, I believe he is a good person. In the face of criticism from sincere people, his followers tend to believe that it is just a personal or political grudge against him, which is of course nonsense.

I have the same issue which you have with his type of ijtihad. I posted before a serious and obvious inconsistency to which I have received no satisfactory reply from his followers nor from his office. People are not appreciating the responsibility of a marja and and seriousness of this error by Sayyed Fadhlullah.What I deduce from such instances is that he takes his pre-conceived ideology first and foremost, such as friendship with Ahlus-Sunnah, before any objective and constructive analysis of our sources of ahadeeth.

Wassalam

(salam) brother Abbas,

No disrespect intended, but what you are saying is simply your own opinion on him. Sayyid Fadlallah gives proof for everything he says. I dont see what his attempts at unity have to do with this. He makes the same attempts at unity with ahlul sunna that Imam Khomeini r.a. made. And these things have no effect on his rulings. I may have posted this on this thread, but I once sent him a question about praying behind Sunnis. I had already known that according to him, if I pray behind a sunni, I must pray it as my own prayer by saying all the words myself, and having the intention of an individual prayer, but I wondered about maghrib and Isha prayers. Since we have to say those prayers in a audible voice, I asked if it was ok to say them in a inaudible voice while praying behind a sunni. He said that I must say it in an audible voice. This is one example that he does not put unity with sunnis over the rules of the religion and its beliefs. I have also heard in many speeches and read many times where he speaks strongly against Umars actions, if he had wanted to please sunnis, he would have stayed away from this topic which he did not have to talk about.

And most importantly, he often speaks about those who denied Imam Ali's a.s. right.

One time I was looking through the website which is known for criticizing Sayyid Fadlallah, and I came across the accusation that I had heard many times on this forum, but I had thought that people made it up, because it seemed too unlikely to be a real problem among scholars. I have often seen people accuse the Sayyid of saying that Imamah is not a major part of the religion, one of those people has posted in this thread about it on other forums as well as on this forum.

But i was very surprised to see that a scholar would actually make a similar accusation when he used a quote from Sayyid Fadlallahs book to complete the thoughts of the sentence himself and say that Sayyid Fadlallah believes that the Wilayah came after the religion was completed. So I quoted the part of the book this scholar used and sent a question to the Sayyids office about it. And it clearly states the Sayyids believes that the Wilayah was the completion of the religion. However this is not my point, my point is that baseless accusations have been made and this is how the situation got bigger than it really was.

Brother Abbas you have mentioned that it is nonsense to believe there is an agenda against him, but when I see such baseless accusations being made by websites promoted by scholars, and not to mention accusations made by scholars themselves, I really begin to wonder why such comments are made. When I say this, I do not point fingers at anybody personally, but it just really makes me wonder why such ridiculous things are said.

If you strongly disagree with Sayyid Fadlallahs opinions, that is fine, you have the right to disagree, but please do realize that there are SHIAS who follow him as a marja. So even if he is not your marja, or you do not believe he is qualified to be a marja for you, then at least keep in mind that he is a marja for other people. I have given my proofs that there are mujtahids who agree that he is a mujtahid, if you agree with another opinion about him, then go right ahead, but let us keep in mind that different opinions do exist, and let us keep the Islamic situation in our minds first and foremost.

This topic really seems to be lost- as most of them end up-, I suggest that if it looks like it is of more harm than good, it should be closed, we've pretty much gone over everything anyways, and its best that we worry about the bigger things which face Islam everyday.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are there any other mujtahids/marjas whose ijtihad has been supported by more than two mujtahids while other mujtahids doubt it and disapprove it? I'm talking about 'approval of ijtihad as well as ijaza' here.

Secondly, as far as I know, even if two vouch for his ijtihad and there are 10 against him, then he has to find 8 more to have a balance. So, if there are 7 who have given their approval and 30 or 37 against him, then he has to find 23 or 30 more to obtain a balance.

Sister spizo, Im not going to answer your post because I already have a number of times, so I'm not going to sit and go in circles, life goes on.

Your wish, bro. But if you really wanted to conclude this debate, you could have presented the proof of ijaza or approval of his ijtihad from his teachers. That's all I want and if that is presented I'll retract my statements.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sayyid Fadlallah mentions the weakness of certain hadiths in his opinion, and then he also gives a logical reason to why the hadith may be weak. He does not simply disagree with something and give his opinion, he uses the science of hadith, although he may have different opinions on certain narrators, and this could be the cause for some differences, however there are many hadiths which he mentions as weak and everybody else agrees they are also weak, yet the other scholars have their own respected reasons for continuing to believe in certain things.

As for qiyaas, please look at post 93 where I posted an email I recieved from the Sayyids office. If you can't read the arabic, it says that the Sayyid does not use any qiyaas in his fatwas, and qiyaas is not allowed in our madhhab.

Salams

The method of rejecting hadith is through placing it in the light of Quran. All shias agree on this. Sure you can discuss weakness etc, but when we have a hadith which does not contradict quran and an opinion, which should we take? Furthermore I have read through many rulings of Seyyid Fadhlallah where he places the majority of the emphasis on science and ignores the Islamic perspective. Simple examples of this are:

a) Female Masturbation

B) Moon Sighting

For example with a) he overlooks many narrations which lay people like myself have come across and says because there is "no sperm" that it is mubah. More worryingly he uses a christian arabic dictionary to give the meaning of "menee".

As for B) he ignores the agreed upon hadith of the visual sighting (or you may claim uses "his interpretation").

The most worrying this I have come across is when I see him saying that there is only 1 hadith which narrates such and such and that it is weak. I look to see if it is true and discover there to be at least 20 narrations on the subject! I have read this with my own eyes a couple of years ago.

As for Qiyas, he often asks for the judgement from scientists and bases his rulings on that. As far as I can see that is qiyas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

I did present proofs, whether you accept them or not is not up to me.

First of all who told you there are only 2 with him? And how do you know the opinion of every single mujtahid? Many of the mujtahids opinions people give against him are infact not against him, like I said earlier they are indirect questions that do not even mention his name, or they are misleading questions.

Second of all this method of choosing the aalam with 2 opinions for the aalim and 2 against him is not even used by people who claim to follow it. Not to mention that this is an opinion of how to choose, and is not mentioned in the hadiths. We see many people following different marjas, I am more than sure that 2 people believe that Sistani is not aalam, and that it is another like Tabrizi (or was in this case), Khamenai, or anyone else. Likewise I am sure that there were mujtahids who would disagree that Khamenai or whoever else the aalam, and that it was infact Sayid Sistani who was/is the aalam. And I can go on and on, each person will make the same case for his own marja, otherwise they wouldnt be following them. There are contradictions everywhere, and I have never seen a list of who is aalam from each mujtahid. On top of that each mujtahid does not have sufficient information about every other mujtahid to be able to judge who is aalam in a fair way, their opions are just opinions from what they have seen. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that going to mujtahids for advice is wrong, but it is not the only way. Anyways, this is another topic that its probably best not to get into.

Salams

The method of rejecting hadith is through placing it in the light of Quran. All shias agree on this. Sure you can discuss weakness etc, but when we have a hadith which does not contradict quran and an opinion, which should we take? Furthermore I have read through many rulings of Seyyid Fadhlallah where he places the majority of the emphasis on science and ignores the Islamic perspective. Simple examples of this are:

a) Female Masturbation

B) Moon Sighting

For example with a) he overlooks many narrations which lay people like myself have come across and says because there is "no sperm" that it is mubah. More worryingly he uses a christian arabic dictionary to give the meaning of "menee".

As for B) he ignores the agreed upon hadith of the visual sighting (or you may claim uses "his interpretation").

The most worrying this I have come across is when I see him saying that there is only 1 hadith which narrates such and such and that it is weak. I look to see if it is true and discover there to be at least 20 narrations on the subject! I have read this with my own eyes a couple of years ago.

As for Qiyas, he often asks for the judgement from scientists and bases his rulings on that. As far as I can see that is qiyas.

(salam) Hassoon,

Sayyid Fadlallah always uses the Qur'an in rejecting something. If a hadith is weak, it does not mean you reject it unless it disagrees with the quran, or contradicts other strong hadiths. Just because the Sayyid has different opinions on some things, it does not mean he doesnt follow the correct way of determining things. Has it ever occured to you that maybe he just looks at some things differently? Many other mujtahids themselves disagree on issues even though they study it the same way, but sometimes the way one understands something may be different. Shaheed Muttahari has mentioned that the family of Imam Hussain a.s. did not go back to Karbala on their way back to Madina for arba3een:

Another example relates to the day of 'Arba'in. At the time of 'Arba'in everyone relates the narrative that leads the people to imagine that the captives of the Imam's family arrived at Karbala' on the day of 'Arba'in, and that Imam Zayn al-'Abidin met Jabir (ibn 'Abd Allah al-Ansari) there. However, excepting the Luhuf, whose author is Sayyid ibn Tawus and who has denied it in his other books, or at least has not confirmed it, such an episode is not mentioned in any other book, nor does it seem very reasonable to believe it. But is it possible to expunge these stories, which are repeated every year, from the people's minds? Jabir was the first visitor to Imam Husayn grave, and the significance of 'Arba'in is also nothing except that it is the occasion for the ziyarah of Imam Husayn's tomb. It is not for the renewal of mourning for the Ahl al-Bayt, nor on account of their arrival in Karbala'. Basically, the road to Madinah from Syria is not through Karbala' and the two ways diverge from Syria itself.

First Sermon, http://al-islam.org/al-tawhid/ashura/

Another difference in opinion is playing chess. Why do Ayatollah Khomeini r.a. and Ayatollah Khamenai allow the playing of chess, while many other mujtahids do not allow it. I don't think those who rule that chess is haram do it on the basis of obligatory precaution either, please correct me if i am wrong, but I have read a ruling by Sayyid Sistani saying that playing chess against the computer is not allowed because of obligatory precaution, so i'm pretty sure he says the rest is outright haram in his opinion. There are many other differences as well. It's a difference of opinion like I said. If we all had the same opinions then there would be no need for ijtihad.

Sayyid Fadlallah usually uses science to further explain his opinions, but he does not use science over the Qur'an and hadiths, infact the proven sciences would not contradict hadiths anyways. For example we often use scientific examples to show people how amazing the Qur'an is. But in no way does Sayyid Fadlallah put anything over the Quran or strong hadiths.

The examples you gave only prove the point of what i just said. With female masturbation, if you look on his website, he gives the hadith that many scholars say forbids it, and then he gives his perspective on the hadith, he only uses a scientific explanation to further strengthen his point. I've never heard of the christian dictionary definition you speak of, I always thought sperm is sperm lol, but I'm sure if you send a respectful question to their office about that, they would answer you as to whether its true or not.

The same goes for moon sighting. If you listen to Sayyid Fadlallahs lectures, or read his website on this issue, you will see him mention the hadith that you speak of. He does not deny it in anyway. He uses Sayyid Khoeis r.a. method in sighting the moon (sharing the same night), but as you know accepts the form of calculations alongside of this. Now go ask Sayyid Sistani what he thinks about using calculations. He will say that if one is on yaqeen (certainty) that these calculations are right, then he can use them. So Sayyid Fadlallah uses the calculations that tell us where the moon is certainly visible, and if it is visible in a certain area, then the areas which share the same night will have eid the next day. Furthermore, if we know the moon is there, but we dont bother to make sure just because we didn't see it when we stepped outside, then we end up fasting on eid, that is not right. Anyways, if you are not convinced by this then that is your opinion.

I think you've made a mistake on seeing 20 hadiths, or you misunderstood him. Sometimes there are many hadiths on the same subject, but maybe 1 only has a certain description or certain detail. I really don't think he would miss something that big. Misunderstandings happen often, even with other marjas, but since there is not as much negative focus on the other marjas, they wont be exploited when something they say is misunderstood.

If you want to keep insisting that he uses qiyaas then go ahead, but Allah is our witness.

Once again i'll mention how little we should care about all of this. If you do not believe Sayyid Fadlallah is one of the most knowledgable then do not follow him, its as simple as that. But there are people who believe otherwise, so respect their views and his for the sake of Islam. There is no problem with having healthy discussions about his opinions, but we should be careful what we say since many untrue things have been spread.

The method which people use to attack his beliefs is the same method that wahabis use to attack shias. They take a belief of ours and spin it into their own definition, no matter how much we explain to them that what they say is not what we believe, they just keep on insisting that it is our belief. So please keep this in mind when hearing certain things. Of course some people will insist on continuing to say the things they say, just like the wahabis do. I don't know why we can't just leave things to Allah, all we're doing is complicating the Islamic situation and fogging up our view in seeing the issues that we should be focused on.

Again, I ask for this topic to be closed because nothing new is being brought to the discussion. I will keep answering misconceptions as long as it is open, but I think its better this topic be closed and we can let the people do their own research through PM'ing or asking the sayyids office.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't mean to say this in a negative way, but what was the purpose of posting this here? Since you posted it here, I have no choice but to answer it.

I am not accusing anybody, but this is a ruling many people use in order to exploit the differences. People simply look at one part of the fatwa and ignore the rest, and go on to assume that the Sayyid allows the viewing of pornographic films in general. I have a lecture where the Sayyid expresses deep disappointment when somebody asks him a question in which they complain about young men who watch pornographic films in the internet cafes of lebanon.

Anyways...

The ruling for FRIGID husbands:

He also mentions that he does not recommend this, and clearly mentions that it is a LAST RESORT after every other means of treating the problem is not available, so this is probably a very rare case, and if the person abuses the rule then it is his own fault for not being aware of the correct ruling like he should. Some mujtahids have allowed transexual surgury, it doesnt mean they promote it, its for special cases.

If you keep reading the link that you posted you will find other questions on pornography:

the purpose of posting that here was we are discussing his views and to show that the fatwa is not in line with islamic thinking.

pornography cannot be classified as medicine. throughout the 1400 + years of islamic history how many shia ulama or how many ahadith do we have that support watching 3rd parties fornicating in public to cure frigidity? it didnt need any scientific discoveries, its not medicine. there is no need for a fatwa to fuel a haraam industry.

imagine the negative implications this would have on a marriage! how would a person feel if their spouse started to watch things and then actually became less attracted to the spouse? how on earth is pornography supposed to cure frigidity?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Marja'iyyat? Lol, is this a joke? Fadlallah hasn't even completed his educated from the hawza and he started giving out fatawa only because he considered himself a link between the people and Islamic world as he states in his biography.

Show some respect.

Amili, etc. themselves admit that their problems with Ayatollah Fadhlallah (ha)'s maraj3iyya are not due to his education but due to his views. The Sayed is very well qualified and has received the ijaza of marja3iyya from Janaati, Historshidi, Montazeri, Yaqoobi etc.

Edited by YaZahraa`
I've had to edit your post, so that I can approve it in this section.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
the purpose of posting that here was we are discussing his views and to show that the fatwa is not in line with islamic thinking.

pornography cannot be classified as medicine. throughout the 1400 + years of islamic history how many shia ulama or how many ahadith do we have that support watching 3rd parties fornicating in public to cure frigidity? it didnt need any scientific discoveries, its not medicine. there is no need for a fatwa to fuel a haraam industry.

imagine the negative implications this would have on a marriage! how would a person feel if their spouse started to watch things and then actually became less attracted to the spouse? how on earth is pornography supposed to cure frigidity?

I understand the strong disagreement with the fatwa, but even Sayyid Fadlallah doesn't recommend it, if you read all of his explanation you'd see what he says. He even mentions some of the things that you are saying (losing interest) to show its negative effects. But you should also know that if there is frigity, its probably because the spouse is no longer feeling attracted. I personally don't know why the ruling was made, but i'm sure he has his reasons and if you were really interested in knowing and not just criticizing you would try to find out. In the end, nobody asked you to agree with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam Brothers n Sisters

I think this is being blown way out of proportion here....

I never thought i would see the day, when shia would be fighting shia, or simply putting one another down

I think this topic was posted so one can DISCUSS some of the things that Fadullah says, but so far i have seen nothing but his bashing.... I am for those who are quick to jump the gun and think im a free lance shiite as those like to say about more moderate of open shia, a Sistani follower, yet i seriously do not see the point in doing all of this bashing

I think its a little too much and shouldnt be driven to this extent

If u think Fadullah is too easy going, or moderate, then simply DO NOT FOLLOW HIM....

if he is wrong with his judgements then HE WILL BE JUDGED FOR IT, no1 else.

Its not your responsibility to try and convince poeple that he is right or wrong, its your responsibility to pray 5 times a day, give money to the poor, pay ur zakat and fast during ramadan.

So please ease up on the bashing here, cos its a little too much, i am lebanese yes, i am from the jnoob yes, do i DISAGREE with Fadullah YES, but am i here to bash him, or take things out of context NOOOOOOOOOO

You dont like him, dont follow him plain and simple...

WHy dont i see Khamenei followers bashing Sistani, or Sistani followers bashing Khamenei ?

regardless of the differences, we are all shia, we all believe and aknowledge La Ilaha Il Allah, Muhammadan Rasul Allah, QUran Kitab Allah, Ali Imam Allah and we all cry for Husayn, and we are all waiting for the Mahdi and Isa to return.

So whats the problem here ?

can someone please explain to me why we are not focusing on external issues, or the problem of a poor education rank within our communities, that we have to sit here and bash around other marja3s ?

Why dont you poeple who are being agressive in nature, give some Kudos points to those who are defending Fadullah, because they are showing the same courage the the 72 companions showed for Imam Husayn a.s

So please unless its going to be something productive, shut your mouth, because your own damaging our religion, and causing tension amongst each other when CLEARLY there are bigger issues at hand here....

Wake up poeple and ease of a bit for real

Salams

Deebo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My last word:

The brother has reported that the research has been done by him already, some time ago. You don't like the results, so you argue about it.

Basically, as I see it, the conservative Fadlallah haters are walking a huge contradiction. If you ask them what are the requirements to be a mujtahid, they'll tell you: "Two recognized mujtahids vouch for you, and you're good." But then when it comes to Fadlallah, it's a whole different story. "Yeah, sure, more than two support him, but what about the ones that don't support him?"

Subhanallah. Pick a story and stick with it. If the system says once two support you, you're part of the marjaiyyat, then the real question is why these other maraja' disrespect the institution by continued questioning when someone has fulfilled the requirements. Those who keep repeating, like a tape recording, that "this isn't political" seem to me a bit naive. If there was a real problem with Fadlallahs ideas, scholars wouldn't be funding Wahhabi-style sites like zalaal. The fact that they use lies to supposedly pursue truth should set off alarm bells in the mind of any rational person.

bro,,this is way too extrem of you to label those who do not follow sayed fadullah as "HATERS",,

just bec we disagree with him being a marje3 does not mean we hate him,,,we believe we have cause to be cautious bec of some of his saying but hating is not what I felt about anyone one who is against him here,,

2- the reason why with sayed fadullah we do not STICK TO ONE SYSTEM IS VERY easy and CLEAR=

we have not been able to locate and and get direct or locate thsoe who did support him ,,NOT YET anyways.

of all the names bro jnoub lebabon gave us from his website I was able to discredit the 1st three,,the rest i AM STILL IN PROCESS OF LOCATING THEM SO I CAL CALL THEM !!!!

3- those who discredit him are not your average alim who do it for their own selfish ;;

man we are talking about al hakim,,al khoei,,al sadr and al sistani...

if you disapprove so much of these people and alims ,,and you think you have just cAUSE to judge their fatwa,..woth out even GETTING IN TOUCH with them TO ASK WHY ?

then you have a serious problem here ,,just like our sunni brothers who have thier sahaihs ,,and refuse to add facts!!!!!!

1- you took it to FAITH the list that fadullah gave us for 2 alims vouching for him ,,but are you sure 100% these names are valid and EXIST nd that is their stand??

did you CALL THIER OFFICS ,,not websites ,,,and get a straight answer???

before you accuse and defend ,,bec what you are doing here is defending alims who are not as well known as well vouched for as the ones I mentioned.

you owe it to yourself ,,and your sons and duaghter when you have them to follow the right way for doing research.

saye dfadullah gave us 11 names,,

how many of these have you CALLED AND GOT staright answer from?

34 are against ?

how many of these you doubt thier marje3 that you ACCUSE THEM OR PUT THEM IN CATEGORY = FIRST YOU SAY JEALOUS THEN YOU SAY HATERS?????

BEC they arethe ones who oppose him and they arethe ones who made us opposse him

none of the bro and sis here oppose fadullah bec they feel like it

but bec we were directed by these alims to do so ,

so if we " hate him " it is not our personnal opionion ..we take it from those who know best .

BRO , my last words to you :

we are not fighting here ,,,we are all lovers of al el biet ( thank Allah sawt )

imam ali sa and al houssain sa and his sons and daughter showed us that we should not only argue superficial points.

I give you that what i say is what i say and do not trust me or take my word.

but from one sis to a bro ,,,do as I advise.

CALL sayed sistani or any of the 34 and get a straight answer .

then call any 2 you pick from those who approve and get a straight answer.

if you are satisfied then ,,,God bless.

do not stop here it is not fair .it means you follow blindly ,,,,and blind is not what shia is about.

search and look and you conclude ,,BUT NOT JUST THRU WEBSITES.call!!

may Allah bless you dear bro ,,,and us ,,and make us strong enough to follow our mahdi sa when he appears.

I understand the strong disagreement with the fatwa, but even Sayyid Fadlallah doesn't recommend it, if you read all of his explanation you'd see what he says. He even mentions some of the things that you are saying (losing interest) to show its negative effects. But you should also know that if there is frigity, its probably because the spouse is no longer feeling attracted. I personally don't know why the ruling was made, but i'm sure he has his reasons and if you were really interested in knowing and not just criticizing you would try to find out. In the end, nobody asked you to agree with it.

dear bro ,,,

I ask you not to be diverted by what sayed fadullah said , how he said it and why he said it for now .

I had a sister send a message last week ,and she was very lost and sad bec it seems a wahabi site is suing sayed fadullah saying to defend their views ,,if Ia m allowed to post the "wahabi website" THAT POST SAYED FADLLAH saying from his own official website to argue their case I will..

I will wait for permission of you or anyone want it pm andI can give you proof.

BUT that is not the major problem here :

dear bro jnoub lebnanon,,,

I only asked you to pick any three of the 34 alims ,,any thre you trsut surely it is not only sayed fadullah that is right and the others have no worth??

there are 34 names ,,pick three andI can giv eyou thier direct office number ,,let me know.

call them

and get an asnwer.

then ,,pick any three from fadullah list and call them ,,

why do we keep going in circles and do you fear calling ?

you think a list posted by sayed fadullah is enough to base your faith and for you not to question it ????

the reason why I say question it is bec as I said there are those more well known ,,more powerfull ,,,and defenitly more knowlegble for famous hawaza in jajaf and qum ,,WHO SAY OTHERWISE.

IT IS NOT A MATTER OF 11 TO 34 ,,THATT IS NOT IT.

IT IS QUALITY NOT QUANTITY/

please ,,,brothers and sisters in this forum ,,,,,

before you argue any more,,

and I hope somemoderators can help us out

let solve this and not argue around it

1- pick any three marje3 you want for list

2- call them ( am willing to pay the phone calls expense ,,it is on me)

3- call any 2 from fadullah list

4- call them

get answers..

that is soo easy ,,,

why do you shia bro and sist keep diverting us from the 1st steps.

let us get this out of the way bec we go in circles

bro jnoub lebanon is very well educated and wel informed anything you throw at him about fadullah saying comes back at you witha reply and he is 100% convinced

so that is not the way.

bro jnoub lebanon why are you afraid to pick three for those who oppose and call?

please do it .pick 3 you trust.

let me know

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I did present proofs, whether you accept them or not is not up to me.

I don't see any proofs of approval or ijaza from his teachers. Can you post the link?

First of all who told you there are only 2 with him? And how do you know the opinion of every single mujtahid? Many of the mujtahids opinions people give against him are infact not against him, like I said earlier they are indirect questions that do not even mention his name, or they are misleading questions.

I never said that 2 are "with him". I said if the majority disapproves and a minority approves, then he has to maintain a balance between both of them in order for his approval to be valid. As for opinion of "every single mujtahid", we have the Ahlul Kibra for that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I never said that 2 are "with him". I said if the majority disapproves and a minority approves, then he has to maintain a balance between both of them in order for his approval to be valid. As for opinion of "every single mujtahid", we have the Ahlul Kibra for that.

BS.

Nonsense.

It doesn't work like that and you know it.

If you grasp any harder at those straws they're going to break.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure. You get two or more votes of confidence from prominent marja's, and you become part of the community. It's sort of like a Ph.D., where once the members of your committee approve you, you are a Doctor of Philosophy. Others in the scholarly community can fundamentally disagree with you after that, but that doesn't affect your perceived right to the degree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BS.

Nonsense.

It doesn't work like that and you know it.

If you grasp any harder at those straws they're going to break.

It works like that and I know it. Go enlighten yourself before talking nonsense. I've got to say, your ignorance overwhelms me.

Sure. You get two or more votes of confidence from prominent marja's, and you become part of the community. It's sort of like a Ph.D., where once the members of your committee approve you, you are a Doctor of Philosophy. Others in the scholarly community can fundamentally disagree with you after that, but that doesn't affect your perceived right to the degree.

Arrite, even if you're right (you're most certainly not), who all of the PROMINENT MARAJE have given Fadlallah approval? Yaqoobi, Montazeri, Janaati, Historshidi (whoever he is) are all mujtahids, not Maraje. And these names in the list are not even "prominent". If by prominent you mean 'well-known' or 'qualified', then the credentials of some of the names mentioned in the list are themselves controversial.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It works like that and I know it. Go enlighten yourself before talking nonsense. I've got to say, your ignorance overwhelms me.

Arrite, even if you're right (you're most certainly not), who all of the PROMINENT MARAJE have given Fadlallah approval? Yaqoobi, Montazeri, Janaati, Historshidi (whoever he is) are all mujtahids, not Maraje. And these names in the list are not even "prominent". If by prominent you mean 'well-known' or 'qualified', then the credentials of some of the names mentioned in the list are themselves controversial.

I challenge your outlandish claims (out of politeness, I won't call them lies) with evidence. Either that, or be silent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BS.

Nonsense.

It doesn't work like that and you know it.

If you grasp any harder at those straws they're going to break.

why do ignore what I reuested dear bro,,,you seem to have taken one pth of defending him and disapprove any one who d does not without checking hard facts for urself...

what straws are we grasping ???

I told you ,,before youy make final decision you owe it to yourself to do your own homeowrkk and choose any three you trust and call,,

I will pay you the phone call fees

why do not conclude it ,,and have more faiths in our ulama and whatthey stand for,,

..please bro ,,I ams king this as sister to her brother .,,I know I am a teacher and health care professional ,,,I know what I am saying ,,but I do not want you take my word for it,,,

just pick any three you trsut sruley there are three ??

and call

and that is th ened of it

I hope ,,god bless you bro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This matter has been investigated a long time ago by many other people, and I am confident in their results. The only people still trying to raise dirt and sow confusion and uncertainty are certain fitna mongers amongs the laypeople, and the more credentialled fitna mongers who they represent. I have to ask myself why they don't have anything better to do. I have to ask myself why the scholars who have made a vendetta against the man have seemingly nothing better to do. It seems rather pathetic.

I am not going to jump through hoops that have already been jumped through by others, on this very thread, just for the sake of your entertainment. He's not even my marja - yet. Do you want me to prove that gravity exists and that the sun rises in the East as well?

From the bottom of my heart, I give you sincere advice. Get a life. Please.

That's all I have to say about this.

Edited by kadhim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You are wasting my time. This matter has been investigated a long time ago by many other people, and I am confident in their results.

So why dont you bring those results instead of speaking in fancy English?

The only people still trying to raise dirt and sow confusion and uncertainty are fitna mongers such as yourself, and the more credentialled fitna mongers who you represent. I have to ask myself why you don't have anything better to do. I have to ask myself why the scholars who have made a vendetta against the man have nothing better to do. It's pathetic.

Wow, the pot calling the kettle black :lol:

A few posts back you were talking about personal attacks yet notice your own words are no short of them. Would you call the likes of Ayatollah Waheed Khorasani, Ayatollah Lankarani, Ayatollah Tabrizi and many more who doubted and even openly questioned the ijtehad of Sayed Fadullah to be fitna mongers? And these Scholars did not raise their issues because of a personal vendetta or because they have nothing to do rather they did so due to genuine problem in what he states. Why is it that Sayed Fadullah refused to discuss his stance on certain issues with Ayatollah Tabrizi and Ayatollah Waheed Khorasani when they asked him for a discussion?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You are wasting my time. This matter has been investigated a long time ago by many other people, and I am confident in their results. The only people still trying to raise dirt and sow confusion and uncertainty are fitna mongers such as yourself, and the more credentialled fitna mongers who you represent. I have to ask myself why you don't have anything better to do. I have to ask myself why the scholars who have made a vendetta against the man have nothing better to do. It's pathetic.

I am not going to jumpt through hoops that have already been jumped through for the sake of your entertainment. He's not even my marja - yet. Do you want me to prove that gravity exists and that the sun rises in the East as well?

From the bottom of my heart, I give you sincere advice. Get a life. Please.

That's all I have to say about this.

Kadhim, with all due respect - who do you think you are ? This is the 3rd time now, where you have avoided the "burden of proof".

You deny anything that goes against your own opinnion, demanding proof, but when it comes to you turn - you either claim burden of proof lies on us, or you don't have to prove anything, since others have done it before..

Earlier in this thread, you asked for proof of how the process of attaining ijaza for ijtihad worked. Your answer was given. You denied it.

Now all of sudden you are explaining to us how it works, and when we ask you the proof thereof, you evade the topic..

You are wasting my time. This matter has been investigated a long time ago by many other people, and I am confident in their results.

Oh really ? If appealing to history is what you are doing, then why cast doubt on the gender condition for ijtihad ? Since that has also "been investigated a long time ago by many other people, and I am confident in their results"

Furthermore, if you are confident in their results - then can you please show us these "results" too ? And why you are so confident in them ?

Seems like you are the one grasping straws. You disagree with the scholars on whatever is against your opinion, regardless of all the evidence present. Amusingly, you agree with them when there is no evidence present, but only that it conforms with your own view.

May Allah guide us all, Insha'Allah.

Wassalam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

Arrite, even if you're right (you're most certainly not), who all of the PROMINENT MARAJE have given Fadlallah approval? Yaqoobi, Montazeri, Janaati, Historshidi (whoever he is) are all mujtahids, not Maraje. And these names in the list are not even "prominent". If by prominent you mean 'well-known' or 'qualified', then the credentials of some of the names mentioned in the list are themselves controversial.

They may not be among the top mujtahids in your opinion, but that does not mean everybody agrees with you, but for sure they are marjas,

Ayatollah Yaqoobi is a marja, if you can read any arabic, read here where it says 'al marja3 al deeni sama7ad al sheikh mohammad yaqoobi'

http://www.yaqoobi.com/

Ayatollah Jannaati's website says Ayatollah al Uzma, meaning Grand Ayatollah = marja.

http://www.jannaati.com/eng/index.php

Ayatollah Montazeris site says the same

http://www.amontazeri.com/farsi/f2.asp

Just because you dont know them (you said 'whoever he is'), it does not mean they don't exist, or they are not knowledgable. There are marjas that I did not hear of before, but people say they are more knowledgable than the most popular ones. There are different opinions and theres nothing wrong with that.

Why is it that Sayed Fadullah refused to discuss his stance on certain issues with Ayatollah Tabrizi and Ayatollah Waheed Khorasani when they asked him for a discussion?

Sorry brother, but I've heard the opposite. I was told that Ayatollah Fadlallah invited Sheikh Tabrizi to discuss it, and he did not accept for whatever reason - I dont know, maybe it was health issues.

But anyways, I dont think either of us know the details to what happened there, so its best we dont talk about it so we dont make any unfair judgements.

But Sayyid Fadlallah says this issue is like thin air to him, he has other priorities, Islam has other issues to worry about. It's an old topic, so lets move on.

Today 91 people were killed in Baghdad, we need to stop putting holes in this ship that Rasool Allah (s) described the Ummah as and start worrying about those takfiris and other enemies of Islam.

If you don't want to believe he is a marja then don't follow him, but understand and respect the fact that other opinions do exist. He is a marja for many people whether you accept it or not. I've never heard that Lankarani said anything, but you throw the names of Tabrizi and Khorossani at us as if it is wajib on us to listen to them. Maybe you have a high respect for their opinions, but not everybody will give the same level of weight to what they say as you do. I have no problem discussing these things, but with some people there just comes a point where you have to agree to disagree and move on for the sake of Islam.

Allah humma y3ajjil dhohoor Imam al zaman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not going to dignify much of the above with a response.

Earlier in this thread, you asked for proof of how the process of attaining ijaza for ijtihad worked. Your answer was given. You denied it.

False.

I asked for the basis of the belief that two votes of approval of existing mujtahids are needed to establish ijtihad.

I actually don't recall receiving an answer to that question.

However, given the assumption that two votes in favor establish ijtihad and the right to be a marja, then Fadlallah passes that requirement, as demonstrated by others.

However, one of the same people who said that two votes of confidence were the only requiremenrs, later tried to spin that around by inventing other conditions.

At which point I called BS.

Oh really ? If appealing to history is what you are doing, then why cast doubt on the gender condition for ijtihad ?

Actually, I demonstrated that there is no unanimous gender condition.

In advance, I accept your apology for the above outburst.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So why dont you bring those results instead of speaking in fancy English?

I think the Lebanese brother posted the results half a dozen times by now, no?

Would you call the likes of Ayatollah Waheed Khorasani, Ayatollah Lankarani, Ayatollah Tabrizi and many more who doubted and even openly questioned the ijtehad of Sayed Fadullah to be fitna mongers?

Well, I'm not going to name any names, because I haven't seen any credible evidence that these are amongst the Fadlallah haters. However, to be more general, if, despite the fact that it is conventionally agreed that if two marjas give their ijaza, you can be a marja, and despite the fact that Fadlallah has received the required two permissions and more, there are scholars who, aware of this convention, attempt to deny Fadlallah's very right to ijtihad, well, then I am hard pressed what to call that other than fitnah mongering. Do you have any ideas what else to call it? I'm open to suggestions.

And these Scholars did not raise their issues because of a personal vendetta or because they have nothing to do rather they did so due to genuine problem in what he states. Why is it that Sayed Fadullah refused to discuss his stance on certain issues with Ayatollah Tabrizi and Ayatollah Waheed Khorasani when they asked him for a discussion?

One marja having a disagreement with another marja's opinions is one thing. Ikhtilaaf is to be expected, and there is no problem with that. But for another scholar to come out and deny Fadlallah's very right to be a marja' because of such disagreements? To my mind it shows a certain lack of tact, a certain lack of judgement. There are manners to disagreement that some allegedly seem not to be following. I think it actually reflects more poorly on the judgement abilities of Fadlallah's most harsh critics than on Fadlallah himself.

One of the troubling things is that when someone generally questions Fadlallah's very ability to act as a marja', it implicitly attacks the credibility and judgement of those marja's who gave their ijaza to Fadlallah in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In advance, I accept your apology for the above outburst.

Don't be so arrogant..

PS You totally ignored my main point:

Furthermore, if you are confident in their results - then can you please show us these "results" too ? And why you are so confident in them ?

I await these "results".

Edited by The Persian Shah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry brother, but I've heard the opposite. I was told that Ayatollah Fadlallah invited Sheikh Tabrizi to discuss it, and he did not accept for whatever reason - I dont know, maybe it was health issues.

But anyways, I dont think either of us know the details to what happened there, so its best we dont talk about it so we dont make any unfair judgements.

But Sayyid Fadlallah says this issue is like thin air to him, he has other priorities, Islam has other issues to worry about. It's an old topic, so lets move on.

Today 91 people were killed in Baghdad, we need to stop putting holes in this ship that Rasool Allah (s) described the Ummah as and start worrying about those takfiris and other enemies of Islam.

If you don't want to believe he is a marja then don't follow him, but understand and respect the fact that other opinions do exist. He is a marja for many people whether you accept it or not. I've never heard that Lankarani said anything, but you throw the names of Tabrizi and Khorossani at us as if it is wajib on us to listen to them. Maybe you have a high respect for their opinions, but not everybody will give the same level of weight to what they say as you do. I have no problem discussing these things, but with some people there just comes a point where you have to agree to disagree and move on for the sake of Islam.

Allah humma y3ajjil dhohoor Imam al zaman

My point in mentioning Sheikh Khorasani and Sheikh Tabrizi was not regarding the Marjiyyat of Sayed Fadullah rather it was referring to the point made by 'Kadhim' that those Scholars who are against Sayed Fadullah are due to their vendetta is totally a false assumption and more to that a very disgusting statement.

Sheikh Tabrizi's and Sheikh Khorasani's opinions are not hujjat upon anyone. One has the right to believe what they wish but just because these people have stated their opinion so publicily does not make them fitna mongers given that they feel concerned. Just read the quote below mine regarding what I had stated in my post.

Questioning his Ijtehad and denying his Ijtehad are two different things. People are very well aware that there was a time when many questioned the Ijtehad of Sayyid Khamenai. The names I mentioned questioned it but did I say they denied it? No I did not. Sheikh Lankarani himself did not agree on certain issues with Sayed Fadullah but he never opted the stance which indicated that he is not a Marja.

This thread is 6 pages old and if you notice that I am not here to discuss this issue at all. I have read enough and heard enough of this but I am not going to sit back and take it when someone labels others to be Fitna mongers just because they disagree with Sayed Fadullah.

Well, I'm not going to name any names, because I haven't seen any credible evidence that these are amongst the Fadlallah haters. However, to be more general, if, despite the fact that it is conventionally agreed that if two marjas give their ijaza, you can be a marja, and despite the fact that Fadlallah has received the required two permissions and more, there are scholars who, aware of this convention, attempt to deny Fadlallah's very right to ijtihad, well, then I am hard pressed what to call that other than fitnah mongering. Do you have any ideas what else to call it? I'm open to suggestions.

So why dont you give the names of Fadullah haters as you call them? Just because a Scholar disagrees with another Scholar does not automatically makes them a hater.

I was not even talking about his right to be a mujtahid, my point was regarding you labelling people to be fitna mongers just because they disagreed with Sayed Fadullah. And the Scholars I mentioned questioned his Ijtehad not deny it, there is a big difference there.

If you ever get a chance to leave Canada and get to go to Qum then please visit the office of Marhum Sheikh Tabrizi and ask them why did the Sheikh disagreed with Sayed Fadullah. Or go meet Sheikh Khorasani and ask him. Their differences was not on the issue of Sayed Fadullah having Ijtehad rather it was on other issues relating to Aqaid and Historical accounts. On that basis, they questioned his permission of Ijtehad. Sheikh Tabrizi took an issue with the account Sayed Fadullah presented regarding the tragedy of Fatima [sa] and certain other issues.

One marja having a disagreement with another marja's opinions is one thing. Ikhtilaaf is to be expected, and there is no problem with that. But for another scholar to come out and deny Fadlallah's very right to be a marja' because of such disagreements? To my mind it shows a certain lack of tact, a certain lack of judgement. There are manners to disagreement that some allegedly seem not to be following. I think it actually reflects more poorly on the judgement abilities of Fadlallah's most harsh critics than on Fadlallah himself.

One of the troubling things is that when someone generally questions Fadlallah's very ability to act as a marja', it implicitly attacks the credibility and judgement of those marja's who gave their ijaza to Fadlallah in the first place.

There are less than hand ful Scholars who deny the right of Ijtehad to Sayed Fadullah and those are not the ones I have mentioned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This thread is 6 pages old and if you notice that I am not here to discuss this issue at all. I have read enough and heard enough of this but I am not going to sit back and take it when someone labels others to be Fitna mongers just because they disagree with Sayed Fadullah.

The label of fitna mongering hater was not intended for those who express some disagreement in a principled fashion, but for those who deny his marjaiyyat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The label of fitna mongering hater was not intended for those who express some disagreement in a principled fashion, but for those who deny his marjaiyyat.

Thank you for the clarification. Much appreciated! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please just agree to disagree, and then just close this fitna creating thread.....with the state that the ummah is in we don't need shia on shia fighting

both those against and for him have made their claims; leave it at that please

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...