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al-khoei12

Let's Discuss Sayed Fadlullah

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there is no doubt that sayed mouhammed fadllullah loves and respects al el biet ,,,but alot of his books and teaching does not give them the 1st lumuniary pedestale that the rest of our maraje3 do .

,,I have not heard anything on imam ali sa moubayat after 6 months,,,but mainly he is judged bec

1-the prophet accrding to him saaw can make mistakes and forget verses from the koran = you'll find it in ãä æÍí ÇáÞÑÂä Ì-4/Õ-153

2- he does not belive that aisha was behind the camle battle :http://www.bayynat.org/www/arabic/nachatat/afkar16122002.htm#6

3- imam ali sa had sins or znoub in arabic I do not knwo what the translation is but you can read it in his book ÔÑÍ ÏÚÇÁ ßãíá¡ ,,the explantion od dua kumaail,,,where it is due to imam ali sa faults or znooub he is doing teh suppliation. pages=159

4- he does not refute the door incident but he cast doubts on it in his book= in a letter to ayat al tabrizi :

so I provided proof anoe with his books coudl verify.

I am still waiting to get back regardding the list bro jnoub lebanon gave us for ulama vouching for sayed fadullaalh as a marje3...

I think it is more important for us as shia to knwo rules of taqleed before we go into discussion and debating our ulama's schools of thoughs.

may we all be guided to what is right

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(salam) wazz,

If you really want to know you should send the question to www.bayynat.org ,this is the best way. These forums have been a source of lies.

lets look at an example, ive been reading this lie about Sayid Fadlallah not believing that the wilayah is part of the religion, or not an important part, lets read here what he says in his quran tafsir "min wahi al qur'an" :

ÅßãÇá ÇáÏíä.. ÈæáÇíÉ Úáíø (Ú)

{Çáúíóæúãó ÃóßúãóáúÊõ áóßõãú Ïöíäóßõãú æóÃóÊúãóãúÊõ Úóáóíúßõãú äöÚúãóÊöí æóÑóÖöíÊõ áóßõãõ ÇáÅöÓúáÇóãó ÏöíäÇð} åÐÇ ÇáÏíä ÇáøóÐí ÊßÇãá ãä ÎáÇá äÒæáå ãäÌøãÇð Úáì ÇáäÈí(Õ) ÍÇãáÇð ãÚ ßá ÂíÉ ãä ÂíÇÊå ÇáãÝÇåíã ÇáÚÇãÉ ááßæä æÇáÅäÓÇä æÇáÍíÇÉ. æßÇä ÇáÊÔÑíÚ íÎØæ ÎØæÇÊå ÇáËÇÈÊÉ ÑÇÕÏÇð ÇáæÇÞÚ æãÑÇÞÈÇð ÍÇÌÇÊå áíÃÊí Ýí ÍÌã ÇáãÔßáÉ¡ æßÇä Çááå ÑÝíÞÇð ÈÚÈÇÏå¡ Ýáã íäÒá Úáíåã ÇáÞÑÂä ÌãáÉ æÇÍÏÉ¡ æáã íÈÚË ÇáÃÍßÇã áåã ÏÝÚÉ æÇÍÏÉ¡ Èá ßÇä ÇáÊÏÑÌ åæ ÇáÎØ ÇáøóÐí ÎØøå ÇáÅÓáÇã ááÅäÓÇä áíÕá Èå Åáì ÇáÊßÇãá¡ ÍÊøì ßÇäÊ äåÇíÉ ÇáãØÇÝ æÃßãá Çááå ááãÓáãíä Ïíäåã¡ æÃÊãø Úáíåã äÚãÊå Èå¡ Ýåæ ÇáäÚãÉ ÇáøÊí áÇ äÚãÉ ãËáåÇ¡ áÃäøóåÇ ÇáÓÈíá Åáì ÇáäÌÇÉ Ýí ÇáÏäíÇ æÇáÂÎÑÉ.. ÝÑÖí áåã ÇáÅÓáÇã ÏíäÇð.

you can read the rest in the link:

http://arabic.bayynat.org.lb/books/quran/maeda03.htm

I apologize to those who can't read arabic.

But basically what is written is clear that he believes that ayah 5:3 , (today i have completed your religion...) was revealed for the wilayah, which is the completion of the relgion.

If you study this great mans works with an honest heart, you will see that he has only answered everything within the boundaries of how one should study islam. You will notice that he has not said anything which contradicts the usool al deen, nor the fooro3 al deen. I can't say how many of these things i hear about him are lies. You all can see it yourself right here on this thread, people accuse him of believing that Imam Ali a.s. drank wine, and that he sinned, that is ridiculous.

People try to twist his words just to cause problems between the Ummah, because the enemies of Islam (zionists and their friends http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...75AC0A961948260) know how much this man was doing for islam, they realized his impact. They tried to kill him before because he spoke too much against the enemies, but they failed, so instead they decided to taint his image by putting these thoughts into our minds.

I warn you all to be careful about what you hear, so it does not haunt you in the afterlife, do not slander your muslim brother. A difference in opinions is no reason to deny someones marja3iya, epecially on different opinions which have valid questions and logical arguments. Why do we even have a system of ijtihad if everytime someone goes against a mainstream view he is attacked from all sides? Even if you do not agree that he is a marjaa, he is muslim, and shia, and he is at a very high level of knowledge which you must respect. And at least except that he is a marjaa for other people who differ from your opinion, so please let us focus on what is more important for islam and for Ahlul Bayt a.s.,

Sayid Fadlallah only wants to protect Ahlul Bayt a.s. like all of us, this is why he speaks of their infallibility, their great akhlaq, their great knowledge, and most of importantly their leadership which Allah chose them for, and all of their amazing qualities. Of course some people will still deny his love for Ahlul Bayt a.s., but of course they do this while not paying attention to all of his sermons and books.

And I cant say enough how shocked I am everytime i see an accusation and look it up. The truth is there for those who want to see it. Alhamdulilah Sayid Fadlallah has done a good job at not letting this deter him from his work in the way of Allah, and for speaking out for all muslims in order to remind the muslims of their situation, and this is what those outside of Islam want to see stopped.

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dear bor jnoub lebnan,

I read soem of his books too and I gave yousome examples I hope that you have the real version to go and verify the sources and see if they are there regarding al zahar sa,,and aisha and imam ali sa,,,see above.

I gave pages you may go and verify and let ,me knwo if these saying are there or not ,

but what I am trying to prove here ,,,is not a bad man from a good man ,,bec it is not in our interest to spread fitanh and Allah sawt knows that we loevsr of all el biet have enemies that jump at any weakness they see..

what I am trying to prove and need all shia brothers and sisters to see here ,,is that WE do not MAKE RULES.

SAYED fadullah being a great man ,,my he live long ,,is not enough to make him a marje3.

sayed al waeli and al mouhajier,,and I can give you 100 others ulama who are wonderful,,amazaing,,,GREATNESS ITSELF.

but great does not make them marje3.

there are rules and critirea for a marje3. Main one 2 well known well vouched ulama have to vouch for him.

you supplied me with a list and you are kind of offensed as to why I question it.

****you list has exactely 11 names on it = I proves to you the 1st three are not to be there -re-read my above posts and I can give you tel numbers.,,you never followed up.

leave 8 that I am still investigating thur good borthers ..inhsallah I will let you know

****my list has 34 names on it who say other wise= including the man with highest degree of ayatollah in this century who is alive today ,,SAYED SISTANI...WHOM I personnaly called and you MUST call as well to hear his reply.

I also called three others..same reply.

if you want me to call all 34 on list so you do not say :

Sister (i hope im right) karbala, i think you have been given the wrong information from whoever you asked. I have asked heard from representatives of Sayyid Sistani (ha) that he does not give his own opinion on it. If you send a question to sistani.org they will not answer you. Maybe a certain office does answer this question, but most of them do not.

it is not just him but 33 others and I vouch for an extra three.

my mind is at ease so is yours. and thank god we are blessd with your love for al el biet to unite us.

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That's not an answer to the question. What is the basis for this system?

First, you can't prove a negative.

Second, in the past I have seen such lists (particularly at the main anti-Fadlallah site, which I will leave nameless so as not to in any way accidentally promote it as a side effect), have looked up the quotes, and found them to be flat out mischaracerizations of what was said. These sites and these lists do the same [Edited Out] that Wahhabis do to us; they play games with words.

I have heard that some scholars are involved with these sites; if they are, they should be strung up for their willing slander of another scholar, particularly one doing so much valuable work for the community.

When I first found out about this stuff, as a relatively new convert of a few years, it really broke my heart, and when I heard that scholars, maraja even, knew about this and approved it, it soured a lot of my respect for the institution of the marjaiyyat (my respect for the institution as a whole has only recently healed fully) and made me much more critical of what I hear.

dear bro ,, I knwo where you are comming from ,,,it almost made me go out of my mind when /i first went into this website ,,and there are only 2 websites so far that speak of sayed fadullah and are set against him.

but I really have to explain these sites 2 sites ( specificaly these 2 sites)...I know the people who are behind it. and they are not anything to be compared to wahabi's ,,we have to give the reality as it is ,,and you really do not have to take my word for them,,

but I really need to defend scholars on these 2 sites: before we judge them for thier participation ,,becuase as I mentioned one of them is SAYED SISTANI ra and he has the highest degree in ayatolaah azthmah today ,, I was shocked to see his name bec before I started to follow him I knew of him ,, but I did a simple thing and I called his office ,

they gave me a valid and clear explabation. and I aksed his office as to why they do not make it more out there as to where he stands,,

since there are brothers who think sayed sistani is not clear as to where he stands .

they said they do nto want to cuase fitnah just like you here brother and the other moderators and other shia religous websites with moderators are doing ,,,WE DO NoT WANT TO ALLOW THE real wahabis to use and abuse this issue.

the reason why I had to reply to you is because you wrote:

and when I heard that scholars, maraja even, knew about this and approved it

and I know dear bro that it might make you more critical but the names of scholars and proof of their participation is really big bec they can not lie or allow what they think in thier opinion is not right ,,really big names and if you do not trust the sites ,,I respect you for that becuase we really shoudl not ,,no matter how pure they look,,but we need to actually validate whats on it when it is a serious matter.

there are big names ,,,and you may and I think it is very safe and smart idea,,youmay refuse not to trust or promote these sites,,,but you MUST call whoever you follow and get your heart at ease ,,that is why we have a marje3 ,,to settle thinsg we are not able to ...

big names on these sites :

ÂíÉ Çááå ÇáÓíÏ ÃÍãÏ ÇáãÏÏí

sayed ahamd al madadi ra

ÓãÇÍÉ ÇáÓíÏ ÇáãÑÌÚ Úáí ÇáÓÓÊÇäí

sayed al sistani ra

ÇáÔíÎ ãåÏí ÔãÓ ÇáÏíä

sayed shams al denn ra

ÓãÇÍÉ ÂíÉ Çááå ÇáÓíÏ Úáí ÇáÎãäÇÆí

sayed ali al khminaie ra

ÂíÉ Çááå ãÍãÏ ÈÇÞÑ ÇáÍßíã

sayed baqyr al hakim ra

ÂíÉ Çááå ÇáãíÑÒÇ ÌæÇÏ ÇáÊÈÑíÒí

sayed jawad al tabrizi ra

ÂíÉ Çááå ÇáÔåíÏ ÇáãÑÌÚ ãÍãÏ ÕÇÏÞ ÇáÕÏÑ

sahed mouhammed al sadr ra

ÂíÉ Çááå ÇáãÑÌÚ ßÇÙã ÇáÍÇÆÑí

sayed kazem al haeiri ra

ÓãÇÍÉ ÂíÉ Çááå ÝÇÖá ÇáãÇáßí

sayed fadel al maliki ra

ÂíÉ Çááå ÇáãÑÌÚ ÕÇÏÞ ÇáÑæÍÇäí

sayed sadiq al rouhani ra

ÓãÇÍÉ ÂíÉ ááå Úáí ÇáãíáÇäí

sayed ali al milani..

there are no bigger names than these ,,and before we become crtical of their participation bec NO ONE CAN DOUBT SAYED SISTANI OR SAYED TABRIZI OR ANYOTHER NAME..

call their office and ask .,,,why are the brothers here specaily jnoub lebanon and thsoe who follow taqleed sayed fadullah afraid of calling it is on 10 cents a min from north america and not more than 50 cents a min /I assume to call any office and get your answer as to

1- is sayed mouhammed a taqleed

2- why not?

3- are there officla bayant ?

4- what about thsoe who vouch for him ?

4 questions is worth it when anyone who debates here belives in taqleed and is not taking it lightly .

pay 20$ for a phoen call ,,and get your real answer.

I have mine becuase I did that already and I am not allowed to post it .

so I ask you and anyone ,,before we judge or assume or follow or debate or anything ,,

we shoudl go to thsoe who know better ,,that is why we come from the school of imam ali sa .

and do nto only go to one source like our brothers from the other sect,,

thank god we have one majore source al el biet ,,and those UNDISPUTABLE ulmama THAT DISSECT THEIR KNWOLEDGE FOR US.

ALWAYS ,check more than one source ,,and we have sources you can not argue about,,like the names i listed about ,,these are NON disputable .

I urge you and otherbrothers to call and come back and say we called,,and advice others if they should do same or not?

peace

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(salam)

Im sorry sister karbalah if it seemed like I was attacking you, but this is a very sensitive subject which I feel has bee exploited and made bigger than it is. Please dont take anything I say as a direct attack on you.

Most of the emails that were sent to those mujtahids did not even mention Sayyid Fadlallah by name. The questions lead the reader.

You called Sayid Sistanis office, not Sayid Sistani himself, there is a difference. And Sayid Sistanis offices have not been consistant in what they say. If Sayid Sistani has stayed quiet because of fitna as you say, then why has information leaked out to this office you speak of? That is not staying quiet!!! Its possible that the people gave you their own opinion or something they heard which was not true. Regardless of the Sayids respected opinion, there are other opinions, and althogh his knowledge is great, it is not agreed that he is the most knowledgable by everybody... otherwise every shia would be following him, and i say that with the utmost respect towards him.

I have attatched some emails from Shaheed Mohammad Sadiq al Sadr, and from Ayatollah Montazeri. Since people have persisted in advertising the names of mujtahids with mostly indirect questions, I will post these which are direct.

Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi and Ayatollah Fayyaadh as well as Ayatollah Yaqoobi are also not against Sayid Fadlallah.

I will do my best to get more Inshallah.

Shaheed Mohammad Sadiq Sadrs email says that his books show his ijtihaad.

Here is a clearer version of Ayatollah Montazeris reply from the attatchment:

ÇáÓáÇã Úáíßã¡ ÓãÇÍÉ ÂíÉ Çááå ÇáÍÇÌ ÇáÓíÏ ãÍãÏ ÍÓíä ÝÖá Çááå ÏÇãÊ ÈÑßÇÊå Ýí ÈíÑæÊ ÚÇáã ãÌÊåÏ íÎÏã ÇáÅÓáÇã æíäÊÝÚ ÈÚáãå æÈßÊÈå.

2 ÑÈíÚ ÇáÇæá 1324 (åÌÑí ÔãÓí)

ÍÓíä Úáí ãäÊÙÑí.

I dont want to translate it wrong, but I have highlighted the part where he calls him a 3aalim and a mujtahid. He also speaks about he serves Islam and about his books.

This is also a site arabic readers might want to see:

http://www.iraqcenter.net/vb/showthread.php?t=4943

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The following is an excerpt from the book "Fatima, a role model for men and women", by Sayed Muhammad Husayn Fadlullah. The second bit ("other grievances") was also posted by 'al-khoei12', at the beginning of this thread in Arabic, so I thought I'd provide it in English:

1. The attack on her house

Historians, one of whom is Ibn Qutaybh in al-Imamah wal Siyasah, said that -- after the death of the Prophet and al-Saqeefah episode-- men came with wood to burn down the house of Ali and Fatima (as), to threaten them and those whom they considered as opposition, who had gathered at the house of Ali (as). Some said to the leader of the assault: "O man! In the house is Fatima!", and Fatima was the person whom the Muslims agreed to love and respect, and whose position they agreed to acknowledge, because she was the only daughter that the Prophet (saw) left when he died, and because she was part of him -- what made her angry made him angry and what harmed her harmed him... So, how come you come with fire to burn her house?

But, he replied with his famous statement: "Even still...!"

We regard this as one of the most dangerous utterances, because it means that there are no sacred entities in this house, and so there is nothing to prevent it being burned with it's people inside!

This utterance points to the mindset of the people, and what they were prepared to do. However, had they opened the door to dialogue through nice words, they would have found Ali the man of dialogue, as he had always been throughout his life, even after he became a caliph; and they would have found Fatima a woman of dialogue, because the Qur'an, to which Fatima above all others adhered most closely to, was the book of dialogue. However, those people had already passed the stage of dialogue by the time they gathered the wood to burn the house of al-Zahra (as). So when in reply to "In the house of is Fatima", that man said "Even though!" this represented the ugliest form of injustice to which Fatima (as) was subjected.

2. Other grievances

There were other events in which she suffered, but they have not always been substantiated fully beyond doubt. Those include the actual burning of the house, the breaking of her rib, the miscarriage, the slapping of her cheek, and the beating of her and others. These are recorded in narrations that may have question marks raised against them, either in their actual text (matn) or in the chain of narrators (sanad), as is the case with many historical narrations.

Therefore, we have raised some queries, as have been raised by some scholars in the past (may Allah be satisfied with them) such as Sheikh al-Mufeed who seems to question the miscarriage issue, even the existence of the pregnancy -- although we disagree with him on the latter. However, we do not deny that these events may have taken place -- as Sheikh Muhammad Husayn Kashif al-Ghita has done regarding beating her and slapping her cheek, because denying requires as much proof as accepting. At any rate, what is definite is that the numerous narrations attain the level of mutawatir as a whole, confirm that there was an assault on her if only by exposing her house, attacking it and threatening to burn it -- and this alone should be sufficient to prove the degree of crime which took place. It was a crime that continues to haunt those who committed it, and this was why the first caliph declared as he was dying: "I wish I had not exposed the house of Fatima, even if it had declared war on me".

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Sister YaZahraa` in the same book, he says:

I merely regarded it as unlikely; I raised a question mark on the basis of historical analysis. I said: 'I do not react positively with this because the Muslims' love for Fatimah (as) had been greater than their love for Ali, and greater than their love for al-Hasan and al-Husain, and greater than that their love for the Messenger of Allah (sawa). I said that it was unlikely that anyone would commit such an act, but conceded that bad intentions were plotted - not to establish the innocence of anyone, but in fear of agitating Islamic public opinion.

There were many narrations: some said that they entered the house, while others said they did not. Hence, I said: 'I see that to be unlikely and I do not react positively to the word itself'. The world roared and heavens fell on earth, and words began to be fabricated and spread in some quarters!

This reaction has still not abated in more than one place, and leaflets are being distributed around the world. It is as if the dangers confronting the Muslims and all the injustice that we live in have become nothing, and all that matters is this historical issue!

First, he is questioning the incident not on the basis of historical analysis or weak traditional proofs, but on the basis of his assumption or opinion that the Muslims' love for Fatema (SA) was greater than Ali (A) and therefore it was 'unlikely' that they would have committed the heinous act.

Second, he reduces the incident to a 'mere historical issue' as if it is some insignificant part of our belief which we shouldn't fret on. This is enough to show his perspective on the issue.

Third, I asked a scholar regarding the views of Shaykh Mufeed and Muhammad Husayn Kashif al-Ghita on this issue, and he said this is wrongly attributed to them. They did not believe as such as Fadlallah has referenced them to prove his point.

Fourth, if anyone researches all the discrepancies which Fadlallah has with other scholars, there is certainly a huge difference and these are not just minor differences within aqeedah which could be overlooked, but enough to change Shi'ism to Salafism/Sunnism. The references of other scholars, past as well as present, whom Fadlallah has quoted to prove his point show that he bases his opinion on 'half-researched' matter and has mostly quoted them out of context (ironically which he accuses others of doing so).

Those who are sincere and are in his taqleed, I would genuinely request them to research his beliefs, his credentials, his qualifications, etc. . since as brother Jnoub said, it is a matter of the hereafter and the decision which you take in this world is going to affect your hereafter.

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The following is an excerpt from the book "Fatima, a role model for men and women", by Sayed Muhammad Husayn Fadlullah. The second bit ("other grievances") was also posted by 'al-khoei12', at the beginning of this thread in Arabic, so I thought I'd provide it in English:

there is a book called the tragedy of zahraa by ayatullah murtadha amili. he resopnds to sayid fadlallah. i am gogint to copy and paste some of the things written by sayid fadlallah and then show the response given by ayatulah amili:

sayid fadlallah wrote:

There were other events in which she suffered, but they have not always been substantiated fully beyond doubt. Those include the actual burning of the house, the breaking of her rib, the miscarriage, the slapping of her cheek, and the beating of her and others. These are recorded in narrations that may have question marks raised against them, either in their actual text (matn) or in the chain of narrators (sanad), as is the case with many historical narrations.

the response:

There are numerous traditions cited by the Infallible Ones clearly outlining how al-Zahra’ (A.S.) was persecuted. They deal with how her house was assaulted with the intention to have it burnt, how the burning did actually take place, how she was hit, how she miscarried, and many other details of what she went through during the said assault. These narrations are consecutively reported (mutawatir) even if we do not add to them what others narrated and what the historians and others recorded in their books as facts. The latter is also quite numerous, even consecutively reported, as we previously pointed out.

sayid fadlallah wrote:

Therefore, we have raised some queries, as have been raised by some scholars in the past (may Allah be satisfied with them) such as Sheikh al-Mufeed who seems to question the miscarriage issue,

he is referring to these words in kitab al irshad:

“There are among the Shi`as those who say that Fatima, peace and blessings of Allah be upon her, miscarried a boy after the demise of the Prophet (A.S.) whom the Messenger of Allah (A.S.) named, when he was in his mother’s womb, as `Muhassan.’ So, according to this sect, the children of the Commander of the Faithful (A.S.) are twenty-eight in number, and Allah knows best.”

the the reply of sayid amili:

the word “Shi`a” used to be applied during al-Mufid’s time to many sects such as the Zaidis, Isma`alites, Imamites and others, actually even the Mu`tazilites who used to rule Baghdad and who permitted the commemoration of `ashara’ in the well known way since then. The opponents of the Shi`as used to call the latter “Rafidis.”

Al-Nawbakhti, in his book titled Firaq al-Shi`a, al-Ash`ari in his book titled Al-Maqalat wal Firaq, and Shaikh al-Mufid himself in Al-Fusal al-Mukhtara, have all discussed this issue; so, whoever wishes to see the details should refer to them and to other books dealing with schisms and sects. The honorable `allama al-Mazandarani al-Khawajoo’i has rebutted those who claimed that the word “Shi`a” was applied particularly to those who believed in Ali’s Imamate even if he does not believe in other Imams saying, “This is strange and is indicative of the limited knowledge of one’s research. There is an indication in many narratives that the Zaidis, Waqfis and their likes were also called Shi`as.”

Al-Mufid here does not want to attribute the narrative of al-Muhassan’s miscarriage to all the Shi`as in the general sense but rather to the Imamites in particular. He, may Allah have mercy on him, may have chosen the term “sect” after that to identify a sect from among the Shi`as that narrates the same, not all the sects labelled as “Shi`as.”
Shaikh al-Tusi was a student of al-Mufid, and al-Mufid, may Allah have mercy on him, was the Number One man among the Shi`as then; so, it is not conceivable that al-Tusi should claim that there was a consensus among the Shi`as in such emphasis, decisiveness and clarity then contradict his professor and the greatest man among the Shi`as! At least, he was supposed to tell us that his professor contradicted such consensus, or that his professor denied the existence of such a consensus!
When al-Mufid wants to address the Shi`as and write a book about this sect, he never hesitates to openly declare the details of what the truthful Lady, al-Zahra’ (A.S.), had to undergo. He narrates in his book titled Al-Ikhtisas from `Abdullah ibn Sinan who cites Imam al-Sadiq (A.S.) saying the following:

"Abu Bakr wrote a title of her ownership of Fadak, so she went out and the title was in her hand. `Omer [ibn al-Khattab] met her. He said to her, “What is this piece of paper which you are holding, O Daughter of Muhammed?” She said, “A title written for me by Abu Bakr whereby he restored my ownership of Fadak.” He said, “Give it to me.” She refused to give it to him, so he kicked her with his foot, and she was big with Muhassan, causing her to miscarry. Then he slapped her. It is as though I can see an earring in her ear being broken. Then he took the title and tore it to pieces. She left, and she remained sick for seventy-five days because of `Omer thus beating her, following which incident she died"

Shaikh al-Mufid, may Allah have mercy on him, discussed what al-Zahra’ (A.S.) had to go through in more than one place in his other books as well. So, notice the following:

1. Al-Kanji al-Shafi`i has cited Shaikh al-Mufid, may Allah have mercy on him, saying that the latter added to what is narrated by the mass of others the following: Fatima (A.S.) miscarried a boy after the demise of the Prophet (A.S.), one who had been named by the Messenger of Allah (A.S.) as Muhassan.

sayid fadlallah wrote:

However, we do not deny that these events may have taken place - as Sheikh Muhammad Husain Kashif al-Ghita' has done regarding beating her and slapping her cheek

sayed amili quotes a poem written by shaikh kashif al ghita:

At al-Taff, the grandson fell subdued:

This is the outcome of al-Muhassan

Miscarried behind the door.

And when the tents were set ablaze,

From the firewood of the house

Of the Guide’s daughter did it take its flame.

sayed amili also says regarding shaikh kashif al ghita:

He, himself, may Allah have mercy on him, states saying that there is a consensus regarding this matter, and we have already quoted some of his statements in this regard. Nevertheless, we would like to repeat them here again (with an addition):

“Numerous accounts in the books of the Shi`as since the inception of Islam, from the first century, such as the book of SALIM ibn Qais and those of his successors till the eleventh century and beyond, actually till our time. It is recorded in all Shi`a books which dealt with what went on to the Imams and to their father, the great aya, and to their truthful mother, pace of Allah be upon all of them. All those who documented their biographies and wrote a book about them have agreed with one another, or their researches agreed with one another, regarding the trials and tribulations which that particular divinely purified portion of the Prophet (A.S.) had to undergo after the demise of her father, the Chosen One (A.S.), how the oppressors slapped her on her face, hit her cheek till her eyes became red and her ear-ring scattered on the ground in bits and pieces, and how she was squeezed with the door till her rib was broken and she miscarried till in the end she died and her wrist carried a black mark like a bracelet. Poets who follow Ahl al-Bayt, peace of Allah be upon them, dealt with this issue and with these shameful acts, using them as the material for their poems and eulogies, taking these details as agreed upon. Among them are: al-Kumait, Sayyid al-Himyari, Du`bal al-Khuza`i, al-Numayri, al-Salimi, Deek al-Jinn and those who came after them, as well as those who preceded them, till this century. Major poets from among the Shi`as in the 13th and 14th centuries, such as al-Khatti, al-Ka`bi, al-Kawazan, al Sayyid Mehdi al-Hilli and others too many to count have elaborated on it. Each of these heart-rending and horrible incidents, the most awful and abhorred norms of conduct which stir amazement and denunciation, are almost unacceptable to reason, nor can the mind nor the conscience absorb them, especially since the same folks had committed what they committed: the (confiscation of) caliphate, the usurpation of the divine post from its rightful owners, is surely greater and more horrible.”

Jannat al-Ma’wa, pp. 83-84 and 78-81

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If the narrations contradict each other, then how do they form mutuwatir (when only one of the stories can be right?)...

Can someone show me the logic behind that?

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dear bro jnoub lebanan, I am very impressed that you are taking thsi seriously and trust me far be it for me to bash or start anything aganist this man ,,sinceI spent long nights in mosques in al qadr night and shura listening to him ,,and every friday speech when I follwed him listening to him .

the sayed sistani office I called is in beirut and you can get a direct answer from him if you want by faxing and they will fax you back with his offical signiture and stamp.

for the ones you listed above,,,I have a direct answer from them with proof ,,and as I said ,,lets not read on lien bayanat lets call them discretley and get answers if you wish ,,here are the replies directly from marje3:

1- ÂíÉ Çááå ÇáÔåíÏ ÇáãÑÌÚ ãÍãÏ ÕÇÏÞ ÇáÕÏÑ

ãÇ åæ ÑÃíßã ÇáÔÑíÝ Ýí ßÊÇÈ ( ÇáãÓÇÆá ÇáÝÞåíÉ ) ááÓíÏ ãÍãÏ ÍÓíä ÝÖá Çááå ¿

Ì ÈÓãå ÊÚÇáì :

ÇØáÚÊ Úáì åÐÇ ÇáßÊÇÈ ÞÈá ÃÔåÑ ¡ ÝæÌÏÊ Ýíå ßËíÑ ãä ÇáÝÊÇæí ÇáãÎÇáÝÉ ááãÔåæÑ ¡ Èá ááãÊÓÇáã Úáíå Èíä ÇáÝÞåÇÁ ¡ ÍÊì íßÇÏ íßæä ßÐÈåÇ ãä ÇáæÇÖÍÇÊ ¡ ÝäÊÃÓÝ ßËíÑÇð ãä ÕÏæÑ ãËá åÐå ÇáÝÊÇæì ãä ÑÌá ãÍÓæÈ ÚáíäÇ . æÚäÏãÇ ÓÃáäí ÈÚÖ ÇáÃÎæÉ Úäå ¡ ÞáÊ : Åäå ßÊÇÈ ÖáÇá ¡ æÏÇá Úáì Ãä ãÄáÝå ÛíÑ ãÌÊåÏ ¡ æÅäãÇ ÝÊÇæÇå ãÌÑÏ ÊÎÑÕ æÑÌã ÈÇáÛíÈ íãßä Ãä ÊÕÏÑ ãä Ãí ßÇÊÈ æáÇ íÌæÒ ÇáÚãá ÈåÇ ÈÃí ÍÇá

( ßÊÇÈ ÑÏæÏ ÇáãÑÌÚ ÇáÏíäí ãÍãÏ ÇáÕÏÑ Úáì ÏÇã Ùáå Úáì ÇáÔÈåÇÊ ÇáÈíÑæÊíÉ

I can not give you the sitehere bec its against moderators wish, but if you want I can pm it ,,scanned book on why ,,al sdar as mentioned above refuses sayed fadullah as a marje3 . it is diff from the website mentioned here before.

but I attached a straight reply scanned by fax from his office with his stamp,,,if you can read,,,the last question + 4 xclearly stateds YOU CAN NOT PRAY BEHIND him in friday prayers :

2- al haeiri:

ÂíÉ Çááå ÇáãÑÌÚ ßÇÙã ÇáÍÇÆÑí

ÇáÓÄÇá:

ãÇ åæ ÑÃíßã Ýí ÇÌÊåÇÏ ÓãÇÍÉ ÇáÓíÏ ãÍãÏ ÍÓíä ÝÖá Çááå æÊÞáíÏå¿

ÇáÌæÇÈ:

áÞÏ äÙÑäÇ Ýí ßÊÈå ÇáÇÓÊÏáÇáíÉ ÈÏÞÉ æÅãÚÇä ÝËÈÊ áÏíäÇ ÚÏã ÇÌÊåÇÏå.

Ó- åá ÕÏÑ ãäßã ÝÚáÇð æÞÏ ÇáÊÞØäÇå Úáì ÇáÅäÊÑäíÊ Ãäø ÇáÓíÏ ãÍãÏÍÓíä ÝÖá Çááå áíÓ ãÌÊåÏÇð æãä ÞáÏå ÊÞáíÏå ÈÇØá¿

Ì - ãÇ ÇáÊÞØÊãæå ãä ãæÞÚäÇ Úáì ÇáÇäÊÑäíÊ ÕÍíÍ.

áÞÏ ÃßÏäÇ ãÑÇÑÇ ÈÃä ÇáÓíÏ ÝÖá Çááå áíÓ ÈãÌÊåÏ æáÇ íÌæÒ ÊÞáíÏå

,,and you can get it from his OFFICAIL WEBSITE ,,there is no dispute there :

http://www.alhaeri.com/esteftaat/iraq_01.htm

3-ypu said al shirazi

the direct fax reply from his office is here :

al moutazeri as well:

these names you mentioned but we have direct handwrtten faxes = scanned ..with official stamps.

I ve got them all all that is missing are mountazeri and yacoubi ...nut inshallah we will fax their office or call and get you answer. ,,

as I said ,,anything you say dear brother I will nto take to heart or personnal bec we both share common love for all el biet ,,and both prqy that we die at the feet of our mahdi sa ,,and we cry blood for imam al houssain ,,our hearts and potahs are clear ,, but this debate is not about us it is about sayed fadullah .

as I said even if he is a great man ,,and I know he is vvery knwolegbel,,,,does that make him a 100% non disputabel marje3?

if we go to someone else to taqleed does not mean we think he is bad,,

rules of taqleed to to always go to the most knowlegble..

lets us say sayed fadullah has vast amount of knwoledge ,,and is a great man.. ( between you and me the only reason whuy i foolwed him in frist place bec he was only marje3 in lebanon able to reunite sunni-shia ,,,I loved him for it,,and I never went into details never read what made others take stand from him )

let us say he is a great man ...

surely there are more knwolegbel alive today with less contreversy that you can follow and may allaw bless him and guide us to the right path and may we stick to it.

??

post-36488-1201468163_thumb.jpg

post-36488-1201468180_thumb.jpg

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Sister YaZahraa` in the same book, he says:

Third, I asked a scholar regarding the views of Shaykh Mufeed and Muhammad Husayn Kashif al-Ghita on this issue, and he said this is wrongly attributed to them. They did not believe as such as Fadlallah has referenced them to prove his point.

He has used references in the book. When referring to Sheikh al-Mufeed, he says it can be found in the book Al-Irshad, vol.1, p. 355; He also goes on to say that this seems to be the opinion of al-Tabrazi in 'I'lam al-Wara bi A'lam al-Huda', vol. 1, p. 395, Ahlul Bayt publishers, Iran, 1417H.

As for the reference used for Sheikh Muhammad Husayn Kashif al-Ghita, he says it can me found in 'Jannatula Ma'wa', p. 135, Dar al-Adwa, Beirut 1988.

If anyone has kitaab al-Irshad, please look up the reference, since it's provided.

he is referring to these words in kitab al irshad:

“There are among the Shi`as those who say that Fatima, peace and blessings of Allah be upon her, miscarried a boy after the demise of the Prophet (A.S.) whom the Messenger of Allah (A.S.) named, when he was in his mother’s womb, as `Muhassan.’ So, according to this sect, the children of the Commander of the Faithful (A.S.) are twenty-eight in number, and Allah knows best.”

It doesn't seem to me, that Shiekh al-Mufeed is referring to himself here and his opinion on the matter. He's talking about others. Is there a reference for this bit? It might/might not match the one I provided above.

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My fellow Shias really piss me off sometimes. I really sometimes fail to fathom why anyone would be such a masochist to devote his life to be a scholar to try to help raise a community which is so heavily populated with unappreciative, reactive, savages. One must really have love in his heart to undertake such a thankless task. If anyone tries to do useful work to raise people's minds, they are cut down like animals by the hyenas of the community, while "noble scholars" either look on without comment out of fear of the hyenas, or even egg them on. To play on James Joyce's famous characterization of his native Ireland: "Shiism is the sow that eats her young."

"God does not raise the condition of a people until they raise themselves."

Edited by kadhim

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If anyone has kitaab al-Irshad, please look up the reference, since it's provided.

It doesn't seem to me, that Shiekh al-Mufeed is referring to himself here and his opinion on the matter. He's talking about others. Is there a reference for this bit? It might/might not match the one I provided above.

i have the translation by i k howard but the words are difficult to understand:

Among the Shia there are those who mention (another) Fatimah, the blessings of God be on her, who was born after the Prophet. They say that the apostle of god named her while he was carrying Muhsin. According to this group, there were twenty-eight children ...

tawriyah is the best form of taqiyyah. i can say to a sunni, "some shia beleive that abu bakr was a fasiq" and i would be referring to myself.

anyway sayed amili has given proof that shaykh mufeed did believe that she was murdered and that she miscarried her son. the proof is in his other works.

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i think his "fatwa" on pornography is enough to tell us the truth about him:

Q: Is it permissible for a married man to look at some pictures of naked women to arouse his instincts only before having a sexual intercourse with his wife? 4/18/2006 1:14:19 PM

A: It is not permissible for a man to look at those pictures, unless, it is the only treatment for frigidity.

Publish Date: 8/18/2006 12:22:02 AM

http://english.bayynat.org.lb/QA/qa.aspx?id=84

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One must really have love in his heart to undertake such a thankless task. If anyone tries to do useful work to raise people's minds, they are cut down like animals by the hyenas of the community, while "noble scholars" either look on without comment out of fear of the hyenas, or even egg them on. To play on James Joyce's famous characterization of his native Ireland: "Shiism is the sow that eats her young."

"God does not raise the condition of a people until they raise themselves."

(salam)

Isn't this the path of the Prophets, ahl al bayt (as) and the promise to the true Shi'a? One must indeed have love in their hearts, humility, and a love of Allah (swt) and ahl al bayt( as) greater than all the hate thrown their way.

May Allah (swt) guide us. Adrikna ya Imam.

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What's his work got to do with his beliefs? Umar apparently, according to Sunnis, did a lot of good work too in propagation of Islam (albeit through the sword). A believer in Abu Bakr does a lot of charity but that doesn't make him right/correct in his beliefs or that his beliefs are not going to be questioned in the hereafter.

Considering the incident of torture of Fatema (SA) as something 'insignificant' is enough to prove his perspective on the Ahlul Bayt (A) - this surely isn't the path of Ahlul Bayt (A) when they have lamented over this tragedy time and again [there are other beliefs of his too which aren't from the path of Ahlul Bayt (A)].

Edited by SpIzo

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The sad fact of the matter is that the slander and distortions made against him most likely stem from a jealosy among some circles of his success and contribution as a spiritual leader, and a fear that this success will undermine their own authority. At heart this is the real issue. The sites slandering Fadlallah are politically motivated, and are the equivalent of the "Swift-boating" tactics seen in the last US election.

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Slander is attributing false words to someone. In this case, all his beliefs are proven from his books as well as his website. He himself admits it. I don't understand how this is slander or distortion. I've certainly not based my opinion of him on heresay or third party websites. It is from my debates and discussions with his followers who have brought up his beliefs from his books, fatawa as well as his official website. Even the proofs he has quoted of the past scholars, I've tried to research up on them and the conclusion is that most of the references he has quoted are taken out of context or false or half-researched.

It does lead to questions regarding his credibility and qualifications, which as the result proved are also considered as dubious.

Anyone sincerely researching Islam would come to know the truth eventually. Most people who follow him are either his followers because he does good work in Lebanon or because of their nationality being Lebanese or because of his "feel-good" fatawa (which he doesn't have the credentials to conjure up in the first place).

If anyone has any objections to what I said, then they can research up the matter on their own. I've nothing against him except for his half-researched stances on pivotal issues and there is nothing political in this.

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Sister YaZahraa` in the same book, he says:

I merely regarded it as unlikely; I raised a question mark on the basis of historical analysis. I said: 'I do not react positively with this because the Muslims' love for Fatimah had been greater than their love for Ali, and greater than their love for al-Hasan and al-Husain, and greater than that their love for the Messenger of Allah (sawa). I said that it was unlikely that anyone would commit such an act, but conceded that bad intentions were plotted - not to establish the innocence of anyone, but in fear of agitating Islamic public opinion.

There were many narrations: some said that they entered the house, while others said they did not. Hence, I said: 'I see that to be unlikely and I do not react positively to the word itself'. The world roared and heavens fell on earth, and words began to be fabricated and spread in some quarters!

This reaction has still not abated in more than one place, and leaflets are being distributed around the world. It is as if the dangers confronting the Muslims and all the injustice that we live in have become nothing, and all that matters is this historical issue!

This was his answer to the question, "Q9 - Fatima's rib: what is your true position regarding this matter?".

In his answer, he said: Anyone who claims that I have said that Fatima's rib was not broken is a slanderer. Some people have been talking this nonsense for more than five year. Here, I have this to say to you, to clarify the matter: to start with, I reiterate that I did not say tat Fatima's rib was not broken, and everyone who claims that I did is a liar. I merely regarded it as unlikely; I raised a question mark on the basis of historical analysis...

When I read his answer, I don't see it as though he is reducing the incident to a 'mere historical issue'. He's trying to explain how it was blown out of proportion, but this doesn't mean he regards it as insignificant. He has been teaching people about the Ahlul-Bayt all his life, his love for Ahlul-Bayt is shown through his works, his teachings, his literature, his weekly sermons, etc.

I don't believe he is disregarding what happened to Sayeeda Fatima (as) as unimportant, I think it's the extent of the injustice she endured that he questions.

At the end of the day, he is neither accepting nor rejecting certain incidence's, but still leaning more so towards accepting. This is how I understand it, but I look forward to reading any further posts of yours on this matter, as I always do. :)

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Anyone sincerely researching Islam would come to know the truth eventually.

Indeed. I'm praying for you and wish you luck.

Most people who follow him are either his followers because he does good work in Lebanon or because of their nationality being Lebanese or because of his "feel-good" fatawa (which he doesn't have the credentials to conjure up in the first place).

If anyone has any objections to what I said, then they can research up the matter on their own. I've nothing against him except for his half-researched stances on pivotal issues and there is nothing political in this.

First, as has been demonstrated here, he is qualified to make his fatwas. Second, his more controverisal positions in jurisprudence are supported by other Ayatullahs whose credentials are in no way in question. (Saanei, Jannaati, e.g.)

You may find the positions "feel-good," but if you supposedly respect the institution of marjaiyyat, then you will recongize that the opinions are within the sphere of ikhtilaaf of learned people and refrain from ill-considered comments.

what is more, I have done my research. The sites that attack him use cut and paste Wahhabi hack job tactics.

There is a clear and unmistakeable effort to unjustly attack him. Personally, I think anyone who goes along with it should be ashamed of himself, or herself, as the case may be.

Edited by kadhim

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When I read his answer, I don't see it as though he is reducing the incident to a 'mere historical issue'. He's trying to explain how it was blown out of proportion, but this doesn't mean he regards it as insignificant.

Sister, it was 'blown out of proportion' not because he regarded the incident as 'unlikely' based on historical proof or weak traditions but because it was based on his opinion. He mentions it very clearly (I said: 'I do not react positively with this because the Muslims' love for Fatimah had been greater than their love for Ali, and greater than their love for al-Hasan and al-Husain, and greater than that their love for the Messenger of Allah (sawa). I said that it was unlikely that anyone would commit such an act).

Secondly, his statement that 'and all that matters is this historical issue!' proves that it was an incident which shouldn't matter to us just because it's 'historical'.

I don't believe he is disregarding what happened to Sayeeda Fatima (as) as unimportant, I think it's the extent of the injustice she endured that he questions.

At the end of the day, he is neither accepting nor rejecting certain incidence's, but still leaning more so towards accepting. This is how I understand it, but I look forward to reading any further posts of yours on this matter, as I always do. :)

I believe he has also stated, that he is still researching the matter. Till he has not researched this matter, I just wonder how he can present his opinions with assurance and certainty.

You may find the positions "feel-good," but if you supposedly respect the institution of marjaiyyat, then you will recongize that the opinions are within the sphere of ikhtilaaf of learned people and refrain from ill-considered comments.

Marja'iyyat? Lol, is this a joke? Fadlallah hasn't completed his educated from the hawza and he started giving out fatawa only because he considered himself a link between the people and Islamic world as he states in his biography.

And if I'm not mistaken, you were actually defending him and asking as to how this institution came to be established just because people questioned his qualifications. Would be good if you respect the institution first, yourself and then advice others. :) Moreoever, you were the one who was supposedly arguing for using your opinion if your conscience rung a bell with regards to particular fatawa of the maraje. Whatever happened to respecting the institution of marja'iyyat then?

I have done my research. The sites that attack him use cut and paste Wahhabi hack job tactics.

There is a clear and unmistakeable effort to unjustly attack him. Personally, I think anyone who goes along with it should be ashamed of himself, or herself, as the case may be.

Lol, kadhim I'm not referring to any site. As I've said my arguments against him are based on my debates and discussions with his followers as well as my research on the references he has quoted. I don't base or take my arguments on/from websites and I've never used them as proof.

Please don't make it out be a political issue when it isn't one.

Edited by SpIzo

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(salam)

Sister karbalah,

please read the attatchments you posted. One of them is the same thing that I posted from Shaheed Sadiq al Sadr. In fact it says that Sayyid Fadlallahs books point to his ijtihad.

You also said that he says you can't pray behind him, but it does not say that anywhere. In fact it just gives the general rules for praying behind someone, 3aadil, etc.

And for the email from Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi, it also does not say anything against Ayatollah Fadlallah. All it does is ask what his opinion is on the riwayat about the issues about harming Sayyida Fatima a.s. and he says that they are well known among the shia and then says salawat on them and curses their enemies... thats it.

There is a difference between disagreeing with a mujtahid and saying that someone is not a mujtahid. Ayatollah Makarem simply gives his view to the issue, but says nothing about Ayatollah Fadlallah.

____________________________________

I forgot if it was posted in this thread or in another... but someone made the accusation that Sayyid Fadlallah allows Qiyaas, so I'm going to attatch a fatwa from the Sayyids office about qiyaas.

Some people are making comments here that the Sayyid is leading people out of Shia Islam. None of the differences contradict the Usool al Deen or even Furoo3 al Deen. In fact the things that he differs on are issues which many shias don't even know about themselves, or they dont practice them. The core aqeedah beliefs are the usool al deen, everything else is based on ones own research. Sayyid Fadlallahs followers do not have to agree with his beliefs, as we know taqleed in aqeedah is haram.

The truth will always prevail, so why are we afraid of hearing different opinions? Opinions which are not even the core parts of our madhhab.

The Sayyid also gives proofs for his beliefs, whether you agree with him or not is a different story.

Is it haram to call the issue of hitting Sayida Fatima a.s. a historical issue? Is that not what it is? Ashura is a historical issue as well, that does not lessen its importance. Fadak, where the transgressors wronged Sayida Fatima a.s. is also a historical issue. Its not aqeedah, and its not fiqh, so its historical.

Loving Ahlul Bayt a.s. is aqeedah. Some people try to claim that the Sayid questioning (not denying) this event is an act of hate against Ahlul Bayt a.s., this is furthest from the truth and nothing but emotional thoughtless talk. Listen or read his lectures (english ones are available on his site for reading) before you comment on how he feels about Ahlul Bayt a.s.

Another accusation that somebody has made in this thread is that the Sayyid has only done half the research. Astaghfirallah, once again we see baseless accusations without proof. People should try to speak to the source itself before they possibly slander somebody. And this is what i meant when i said its a matter of the hereafter, we should be careful about what we say about others.

It is also being said that the Sayyid questions the issue simply because he believes it is improbbable. This must make him a horrible scholar because now he's just denying things out of the blue right? Well the thing is, this accusation --- surprise surprise--- is also not true.

First of all, Sayyid Fadlallah, may Allah protect him, believes that the riwayahs are dha3eef, or weak. If you want information on why, then I suggest you go to him.

Secondly, there are other versions of what happened after Umar made the threat to burn the house, shias that believe Sitna Fatima a.s. was hit even do not agree on the details of what happened, and I believe that there are hadiths which mention that she a.s. was not hit. By the way, nobody disagrees that Umar made the threat to burn the house, this is what Sayyid Fadlallah believes is thaabit, or firm.

Thirdly, when the Sayyid mentions that the Muslims had love for Sitna Fatima a.s., he is right. When Umar said to burn the house, another man said "but Fatima a.s. is in there". Notice he did not say "but Ali a.s. is inside" or "but Ali a.s. and Fatima a.s. are inside", he mentioned Fatima a.s. This should be taken into account along with the study of the hadiths and their authenticity, and the different versions. And of course after Umar heard this, he said "Even if" or "So what", and this itself is a big insult and disrespect to Sitna Fatima a.s., her Father (s), Ahlul Bayt a.s., and most of all, Allah s.w.t.

People should know that Sayyid Fadlallah is not the only scholar who questions these things. Shaheed Mohammad Baqir al Sadr expresses the same doubts, yet we see nobody attacking him and throwing him out of shia islam, slandering him, and making up things that he says.

If you do not believe me go buy yourself a copy of Fadak fil Tareekh (Fadak in History) by Shaheed Sadr. In the english version, on page 26, Shaheed al Sadr says:

"Omar, who attacked you (principles) in your house in Mecca,, which the Prophet had made as a centre for his mission, attacked the family of Muhammad in their house (in Medina) and set fire to it or was about to do so"

So please, lets see you criticize Shaheed Sadr in front of the Ummah like you criticize Sayyid Fadlallah.

Sayyid Fadlallah also mentions in a speech that Shaheed Sadr had the same view, and this book confirms it. Sayyid Fadlallah and Shaheed Sadr knew each other very well, they used to write a magazine together in Najaf.

Shaheed Sadr is known to have sad " All those who left Najaf lost something on leaving except Sayyid Muhammad Hussein Fadullah and in his case, it was the Najaf University that lost."

As for Sayyid Amili's book, there is a book which answers things that he said by Sheikh Jafar al Shakhoori al Bahraani. Its called marja3iyat al mar7ala wa ghibaar al taghyeer. Unfortunately it is in arabic.

I will try to reply about what was said about Sheikh Mufeed, but it is difficult to abtain this information at times. But people should know that just because you heard a little bit of an explanation, does not mean you've heard it all, and the same goes for myself of course.

I want to once again remind everybody the danger of this situation. This situation is not specifically about Sayyid Fadlallah himself, but it is about Islam. We must protect this religion and not attack each other to wound ourselves and let our enemies attack us, and we must refrain from saying untrue things about each other, especially about the most learned people among us.

Wa Alaykom Assalam.

post-13146-1201494540_thumb.jpg

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Anyone sincerely researching Islam would come to know the truth eventually. Most people who follow him are either his followers because he does good work in Lebanon or because of their nationality being Lebanese or because of his "feel-good" fatawa (which he doesn't have the credentials to conjure up in the first place).

So now you're judging people? Can you see their hearts to do this?

Marja'iyyat? Lol, is this a joke? Fadlallah hasn't even completed his educated from the hawza and he started giving out fatawa only because he considered himself a link between the people and Islamic world as he states in his biography.

from his website:

His first teacher was his father Sayyid Abdulraouf Fadlullah.

He completed with him the course called Sutouh in which the student reads the book and listens to his teacher’s explanation. He also studied the Arabic language, logic and Jurisprudence, and did not need another teacher until he studied the second part of the course known as Kifayat at Usul which he studied with an Iranian teacher called Sheikh mujtaba Al-Linkarani. He attended the so-called Bahth Al-Kharij in which the teacher does not restrict himself to a certain book but gives more or less free lectures.

...

The Sayyid attended the Bahth Al-Kharig of some of the greatest scholars and religious authorities of that time including:

Sayyid Abulkassim Al Khoui: He was born in 1306h? He emigrated to Najaf in 1318 and there he studied with some of its greatest and most prominent scholars including Sheikh Shari`a Asfahani, Editor and researcher Dia’ Al-Iraqi. Sheikh Muhammad Hussein Al-Asfahani Al-Kimbani, Sheikh Muhammad Hussein Na`ini, Sheikh Mahammad Jawad Al-Badkoub who was considered to be the greatest leader of the academic moment in Najaf for a long time, and was a religious authority (Marga) until he died, May Allah have mercy on him.

Sayyid Muh`sin AL-Hakim: Born in Al-Najaf in 1306H/. And attended the courses of scholars such as Sheikh Khurassani the author of Kifayah, and Sheikh Muhammad Hussein Anna`ini. He is considered one of the most prominent Marga. For he condemned Marxism that was invading the Muslim community at that time and considered it in his bold and famous judgment as” unbelief and atheism”.

Sayyid Mahmoud Shah`roudi: Born in one of the villages of Shah`roud in 1301H/. He went to Najaf and attended the courses of Sheikh Muhammad Qazim Al-Kharassani until the latter died. Then he attended the courses of Diaz Al-Iraqi and Sheikh Muhammad Hussein Na`ini. He then became one of the few Marga that were recognized all over the Islamic world.

Sheikh Hussein Hilli: He was first taught by his father who was one of most prominent teachers of his time. He then studied under several teachers the last of which was Mirza Hussein Al-Na`ini with whom he spent several years, and became known for his wide knowledge, research skills, good morals, honesty and humbleness. He died in 1349H/.

Mullah Sadra Al-Qafkazy who was known as Sheikh Sadra Al-Badkoubi.

...

After 21 years of studying under the prominent teachers of the Najaf religious university he concluded his studies in 1385 H and returned to Lebanon.

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Marja'iyyat? Lol, is this a joke? Fadlallah hasn't completed his educated from the hawza and he started giving out fatawa only because he considered himself a link between the people and Islamic world as he states in his biography.

Setting aside for the moment your arbitrary assumption that legitimate education only resides in the hawzas,

I repeat:

Second, his more controverisal positions in jurisprudence are supported by other Ayatullahs whose credentials are in no way in question. (Saanei, Jannaati, e.g.)You may find the positions "feel-good"...
And if I'm not mistaken, you were actually defending him and asking as to how this institution came to be established just because people questioned his qualifications. Would be good if you respect the institution first, yourself and then advice others.

No, you are mistaken. There was no questioning of "the institution" related to this issue, but rather of something much more specific related to the practical working of the system of accreditation process of mujtahids. I will warn you against purposefully distorting my statements for the purpose of personal attacks.

Moreoever, you were the one who was supposedly arguing for using your opinion if your conscience rung a bell with regards to particular fatawa of the maraje. Whatever happened to respecting the institution of marja'iyyat then?

Questioning a particular fatwa in no way constitutes an undermining of the entire system of marjaiyyat.

I suggest you quit the hyperbole and kindly refrain from straying from the topic into personal attacks.

Edited by kadhim

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Setting aside for the moment your arbitrary assumption that legitimate education only resides in the hawzas,

It's not just one issue, mind you. It seems to me, you are not even aware of the differences in aqaed.

As for legitimacy, whether or not they are not in conformity with other Ayatullahs fatawa, it doesn't make him qualified to issue fatawa.

And for 'arbitary assumption', I take it that according to you a person is qualified enough to conjure up fatawa if he acts as a link between the people and the Islamic world?

No, you are mistaken. There was no questioning of "the institution" related to this issue, but rather of something much more specific related to the practical working of the system of accreditation process of mujtahids. I will warn you against purposefully distorting my statements for the purpose of personal attacks.

Questioning a particular fatwa in no way constitutes an undermining of the entire system of marjaiyyat.

I suggest you quit the hyperbole and kindly refrain from straying from the topic into personal attacks.

That's a nice way of putting your statement in other words. There were no personal attacks. In fact if you just read your post to which I responded, you attacked first (Indeed. I'm praying for you and wish you luck. . .but if you supposedly respect the institution of marjaiyyat). If you can show me where I attacked you to which you responded that way, I'll apologise.

You did not question a particular fatawa but you undermine the entire system of marja'iyyat because you believe that your opinion is more valid than the fatawa just because it does not gel with your conscience.

Anyway I don't want the discussion to divert into this topic.

I suggest you quit all the fanciful words, and research on the issue before posting your comment.

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So now you're judging people? Can you see their hearts to do this?

That message was for everyone, including me. If Fadlallah believes in the truth, then I might as well believe in it. If others believe in truth, then I would follow it. If anyone researches Islam sincerely, they would come to the truth eventually not on the basis of what scholars say or our opinions, but on the basis of Qur'an and Ahadith.

As for the reasons given for people following him, can you tell me whether I'm wrong or not?

You are defending him not because you want to defend the issues but because you want to defend the personality.

from his website:

Did he have the ijaza to issue fatawa? There's no mention about it. He started issuing fatawa only when (from his website):

The Sayyid as a Religious Authority (Maraga’) following the deaths of the great Islamic leader, Sayyid Al Khouie and Imam Khomeini, and after the passing away of all the symbols of the First generation such as Sayyid Al-Kalbakani who undertook the task of issuing fatwas as a religious authority, a great vacuum was left. People from various regions came to the Sayyid and asked him to undertake this task, for they were used to asking the Sayyid about the fatwas of the various Marga’s until he became the link between the people and their religious authorities all over the Islamic world. They had a lot of trust in the Sayyid especially after the long struggle they had gone through together, in addition to their certainty that he was a just, righteous and pious man, he had to respond to their plea and hold his responsibilities.

The Sayyid had issued a lot of fatwas that he had made in response to believers’ questions.

Just because the people considered him to righteous and pious man and they pleaded, he started issuing fatawa. Is this how a marja issues fatawa?

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Secondly, there are other versions of what happened after Umar made the threat to burn the house, shias that believe Sitna Fatima a.s. was hit even do not agree on the details of what happened

This is basically the thing everyone ignores.

The famous book used to show it's mutuwatir, the hadiths all differed. One saying it was sword, one saying door, one saying whipped, one saying beat... there was no one version... so I don't know how when they all differ, anyone can say it forms mutuwatir.

Yes alot of hadiths, but when they differ from one another, that it means only a few can be true. Which would make others all liars. Which makes it not mutuwatir but even more suspect, because we know there was some motive to fabricate about it because certainly a lot of the hadiths undoubtably are fabrication and no1 can deny that as they differ...

anyone can show how contradicting stories form mutuwatir - the logic behind that - is welcome to do so.

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i think his "fatwa" on pornography is enough to tell us the truth about him:

Q: Is it permissible for a married man to look at some pictures of naked women to arouse his instincts only before having a sexual intercourse with his wife? 4/18/2006 1:14:19 PM

A: It is not permissible for a man to look at those pictures, unless, it is the only treatment for frigidity.

Publish Date: 8/18/2006 12:22:02 AM

http://english.bayynat.org.lb/QA/qa.aspx?id=84

does anyone have comments to make about this fatwa?

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(salam)

That message was for everyone, including me. If Fadlallah believes in the truth, then I might as well believe in it. If others believe in truth, then I would follow it. If anyone researches Islam sincerely, they would come to the truth eventually not on the basis of what scholars say or our opinions, but on the basis of Qur'an and Ahadith.

As for the reasons given for people following him, can you tell me whether I'm wrong or not?

You are defending him not because you want to defend the issues but because you want to defend the personality.

Did he have the ijaza to issue fatawa? There's no mention about it. He started issuing fatawa only when (from his website):

"Giving judgement is not permissible for someone who has not been endowed by Allah with the qualities of inner purity, sincerity in both his hidden and visible actions, and a proof from his Lord in every state. This is because whoever has judged has decreed, and decree is only valid by the permission of Allah and by His proof. Whoever is liberal in his judgement, without having made a proper examination, is ignorant and will be taken to task for his ignorance and will be burdened with his judgement as the tradition indicates. Knowledge is a light, which Allah casts into the heart of whomsoever He wills."

--Imam Jafar as Sadiq (as)

Lantern of the Path

Section 6: Giving Judgement

I don't understand why you keep assuming when I have reminded you about the consequences of saying untrue things. I'll say this again, you can't see into other peoples hearts, so stop making judgements. Many people follow Sayyid Fadlallah because of his knowledge. Of course there are people who follow him for the wrong reasons, but the same thing happens with the followers of every other marja, this does not make the majority of their followers insincere people. Many people only follow Ayatollah Sistani because everybody else does, does this mean that everybody who follows him is insincere? No of course not. Many people follow Ayatollah Khamenai for political reasons or because of all the excitement around the political things, but once again this does not make all his followers insincere people who do not believe that he is knowledgable.

Many people in Iraq as well as the gulf countries follow Sayyid Fadlallah. Do you really want to take the responsibility of having judged every one of their decisions without knowing if what you say is true or not? Allah is our witness.

I have already posted fatwas from Mujtahids who approve of the Sayyids ijtihad, and those are not the only ones. If you want to follow the opinion of some other people, go right ahead, but I have given my proof.

There is nothing wrong with what you quoted from bayynat, stop trying to demonize everything. The people at bayynat are only trying to explain to you what the situation was and why he decided to take this role.

Let me show you a similar quote from Sistani.org:

Some masters in Najaf Ashraf relate that, after the demise of Ayatullah Sayyid Nasrullah Mustanbit, many scholars had suggested on Ayatullah Khou'i that he should prepare the appropriate base by choosing a personality from the hawzah (of Najaf) so that the religious authority may remain alive and effective. His choice became correct and the choiced was Sayyid Sistani for his knowledge, good manner, stable policy, and many other virtues.

Ayatollah Sistani then began to perform the prayers at the niche of Ayatollah Khou'i, and started studying in his school.

Lastly, you mentioned that you did not make any personal attacks, but what you assumed about myself and many many many other muslims was indeed a personal attack. You have unjustly judged us, but as the Sayyid himself says, the personal attack is not important, it is this attack on Islam which harms us all the most. People forget that these assumptions and false judgements are also attacks on members of the Muslim Ummah who Allah asked us to respect and to be kind towards, and to speak kindly to, and to smile at. So in essence when you unjustly attack a Muslim, you have transgressed what Allah has asked you to do. I don't think an apology is wanted, but I do suggest you turn in repentance to your Lord.

does anyone have comments to make about this fatwa?

(salam),

I don't mean to say this in a negative way, but what was the purpose of posting this here? Since you posted it here, I have no choice but to answer it.

I am not accusing anybody, but this is a ruling many people use in order to exploit the differences. People simply look at one part of the fatwa and ignore the rest, and go on to assume that the Sayyid allows the viewing of pornographic films in general. I have a lecture where the Sayyid expresses deep disappointment when somebody asks him a question in which they complain about young men who watch pornographic films in the internet cafes of lebanon.

Anyways...

The ruling for FRIGID husbands:

Q: Is it permissible for a frigid wife or husband to watch pornographic scenes?

... if a husband or a wife, or both suffer frigidity in the absence of any means of treatment, whether natural- through mutual excitation -or through medication, and if the only treatment is watching pornographic scenes, then this will be permissible, only because this is the only means, keeping in mind that this should be done apart from any excess, just like taking the proper dosage of the medicine prescribed, provided that this passive situation may threaten their matrimonial life.

He also mentions that he does not recommend this, and clearly mentions that it is a LAST RESORT after every other means of treating the problem is not available, so this is probably a very rare case, and if the person abuses the rule then it is his own fault for not being aware of the correct ruling like he should. Some mujtahids have allowed transexual surgury, it doesnt mean they promote it, its for special cases.

If you keep reading the link that you posted you will find other questions on pornography:

Q: Is it permissible to watch sexual or pornographic pictures on the internet? 6/10/2006 9:27:55 AM

A: It is impermissible to watch pornographic pictures because they lead to corruption, deviation and loss of the moral immunity.

Publish Date: 10/10/2006 12:16:35 PM

Q: Is permissible to watch films that include pornographic scenes? 5/26/2006 11:22:50 AM

A: It is impermissible to watch pornographic films and scenes because they may cause corruption and deviation and may also make the pious person or the believer lose his moral immunity.

Q: Is it permissible for a married man to look at some pictures of naked women to arouse his instincts only before having a sexual intercourse with his wife? 4/18/2006 1:14:19 PM

A: It is not permissible for a man to look at those pictures, unless, it is the only treatment for frigidity.

Q: Is it permissible to watch T.V programs, knowing that the actresses of these programs are unveiled? 2/21/2006 9:32:27 AM

A: It is permissible to watch them if they do not arouse the instincts.

If you don't mind, this is a public website, and I think its best that certain topics are best discussed in other ways. Im pretty sure you don't follow the Sayyid, so I don't think you need to worry about this ruling anyways. If you still want more information, then I suggest you contact him or his representatives.

Wasalamu Alaykom.

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The sad fact of the matter is that the slander and distortions made against him most likely stem from a jealosy among some circles of his success and contribution as a spiritual leader, and a fear that this success will undermine their own authority. At heart this is the real issue. The sites slandering Fadlallah are politically motivated, and are the equivalent of the "Swift-boating" tactics seen in the last US election.

sayed sistani ra is not a jealous alim,,,

neither is al hakim,,and al khoeie,,,or al shirazi....

Indeed. I'm praying for you and wish you luck.

First, as has been demonstrated here, he is qualified to make his fatwas. Second, his more controverisal positions in jurisprudence are supported by other Ayatullahs whose credentials are in no way in question. (Saanei, Jannaati, e.g.)

You may find the positions "feel-good," but if you supposedly respect the institution of marjaiyyat, then you will recongize that the opinions are within the sphere of ikhtilaaf of learned people and refrain from ill-considered comments.

what is more, I have done my research. The sites that attack him use cut and paste Wahhabi hack job tactics.

There is a clear and unmistakeable effort to unjustly attack him. Personally, I think anyone who goes along with it should be ashamed of himself, or herself, as the case may be.

nope it has not been demonstrated yet ,,bec you have 34 who say otherwise,,,only 7 still under investigation ,,,i will get more proof

but I Still do not know why people will not call and get answers,,call your taqleed office and ask!!!

if you follow sayed fadullah with only 7 who approve him

seven no one comes near the famous 34 scolars,,,

why stay in one place?

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(salam)

There are not even 34 confirmed, like I said a lot of those emails are misleading questions, or questions that have nothing to do with Sayyid Fadlallah at all.

If you do not believe he is a marja, then that is fine, do not follow him. But there are mujtahids who approve of his ijtihad, and people have their own minds to think. Even if 34 were against him, I dont think us shias like it when Sunnis use their numbers as proof against Shia Islam, or when Christians do the same with Islam. Shia Islam does not run on ijma3 (majority) , this is a Sunni way of doing things, and it is one of the big differences between the way the Shias and Sunnis determine things, and it is also why we have the system of ijtihad.

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(salam)

"Giving judgement is not permissible for someone who has not been endowed by Allah with the qualities of inner purity, sincerity in both his hidden and visible actions, and a proof from his Lord in every state. This is because whoever has judged has decreed, and decree is only valid by the permission of Allah and by His proof. Whoever is liberal in his judgement, without having made a proper examination, is ignorant and will be taken to task for his ignorance and will be burdened with his judgement as the tradition indicates. Knowledge is a light, which Allah casts into the heart of whomsoever He wills."

--Imam Jafar as Sadiq (as)

Lantern of the Path

Section 6: Giving Judgement

If you noticed, you are actually doing the same thing. You are judging me of judging you and others. You know, brother, there's a well-known phrase which goes like this: Practise what you preach.

I don't understand why you keep assuming when I have reminded you about the consequences of saying untrue things.

Please show me where I've said "untrue" things.

Many people follow Sayyid Fadlallah because of his knowledge.

Good. At least you admitted, not because he has the qualifications. There are many knowledgeable people but not all are qualified to issue fatawa.

I would advise anyone to completely research into the credentials of a marja/mujtahid before choosing anyone.

Many people in Iraq as well as the gulf countries follow Sayyid Fadlallah. Do you really want to take the responsibility of having judged every one of their decisions without knowing if what you say is true or not? Allah is our witness.

All the more why people should research before choosing anyone. It's a matter of akherah. As a sister said on another forum, it's like selecting a doctor. You won't go to a doctor whose credentials are dubious. If he has got the required credentials, then well and good. But if he hasn't, then it will be you who will come to harm.

I have already posted fatwas from Mujtahids who approve of the Sayyids ijtihad, and those are not the only ones. If you want to follow the opinion of some other people, go right ahead, but I have given my proof.

Can you make a list of all the maraje who taught him and all those who gave him ijaza to issue fatawa? I want to see how many of his teachers approved of his ijtihad or gave him ijaza.

There is nothing wrong with what you quoted from bayynat, stop trying to demonize everything. The people at bayynat are only trying to explain to you what the situation was and why he decided to take this role.

Let me show you a similar quote from Sistani.org:

There is a whole lot of difference between the quote from Sistani.org and what I posted from Bayynat. In the latter case, Sayyed Fadlallah decided to take the role of issuing fatawa upon himself without any endorsement from any teacher of his. This was when he was acting as a link between the people and the Islamic world - which Bayynat says, all he used to do was, when asked by the people, give them the fatawa of various Maraje', not issue his own. While, in the former case, it is clearly stating the Sayyed Khu'i was endorsing Sayyed Sistani as his successor. Can you show me the same thing from Bayynat?

Lastly, you mentioned that you did not make any personal attacks, but what you assumed about myself and many many many other muslims was indeed a personal attack. You have unjustly judged us, but as the Sayyid himself says, the personal attack is not important, it is this attack on Islam which harms us all the most. People forget that these assumptions and false judgements are also attacks on members of the Muslim Ummah who Allah asked us to respect and to be kind towards, and to speak kindly to, and to smile at. So in essence when you unjustly attack a Muslim, you have transgressed what Allah has asked you to do. I don't think an apology is wanted, but I do suggest you turn in repentance to your Lord.

You are judging and accusing me and going wayyy too far. Asking/advising people to sincerely research Islam who will reach the truth eventually is not a judgment. How did you conclude that it is? And is what I said, wrong?

I don't want an apology either, but all I suggest is that you research the ideologies of an individual based on Qur'an and Ahadith. Not opinions.

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(salam)

You said:

Anyone sincerely researching Islam would come to know the truth eventually. Most people who follow him are either his followers because he does good work in Lebanon or because of their nationality being Lebanese or because of his "feel-good" fatawa (which he doesn't have the credentials to conjure up in the first place).

If you are going to sit and tell me that you did not pass a judgement on most people who follow him, then I don't know what to say. The above quote was clearly a judgement. I did not pass a judgement on you, I only told you what you did, and then I gave you Imam Sadiqs a.s. advice against what you did.

You said an untrue thing by accusing most of his followers of something untrue in the quote above. And even worse, after I told you that you can not see into these peoples hearts, your only response was:

As for the reasons given for people following him, can you tell me whether I'm wrong or not?

Can you tell me whether you are right or not? I know you can't, because I know you do not have a survey of thousands of people. So since you can't prove whether you are right, why did you make the accusation?

Good. At least you admitted, not because he has the qualifications.

Knowledge is the qualification.

I have already given proof for his marja3iyah from others testifying to his knowledge and level of ijtihad.

There is a whole lot of difference between the quote from Sistani.org and what I posted from Bayynat. In the latter case, Sayyed Fadlallah decided to take the role of issuing fatawa upon himself without any endorsement from any teacher of his. This was when he was acting as a link between the people and the Islamic world - which Bayynat says, all he used to do was, when asked by the people, give them the fatawa of various Maraje', not issue his own. While, in the former case, it is clearly stating the Sayyed Khu'i was endorsing Sayyed Sistani as his successor. Can you show me the same thing from Bayynat?

Sayyid Sistani was in Najaf, a city where there is usually one top scholar, like Sayyid Khoei r.a. was, this is why he was endorsed in this way. This does not mean that he would not have become a marja if he was not endorsed to be the next leader, it simply means that he was endorsed to be the top person to keep the marja3iyah alive. Reread the quote and you will see it.

The part you quoted from bayynat only tells us at what point that Sayyid Fadlallah decided to become a marja. I really don't know why you're reading so much into it.

If you want more info ask him.

This discussion is starting to get repetitive and unproductive. Even though you dont want an apology I am sorry if you feel insulted by me, insulting you is furthest from my intentions, but you should realize that what you said was a clear judgement, if you did not mean it in that way that it appeared then you should at least reword what you said. But I think that if I told you "most people who follow Sayyid Sistani only do so blindly because most others do, and they dont even care if he's the most knowledgable or not" - you would call that a judgement that is untrue, and it definetly is untrue.

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Salam

I see everybody discussing fiqh issues here as if they have some authority. I don't think any of us have the right to criticise fatwas individually with regards to Seyyid Fadhlallah.

I used to do taqleed of Seyyid Fadhlallah and have met him on one occasion. He is a lovely man. However the issue I have with him is the way he uses opinion over hadith. Seyyid Khoei (ra) was one of the greatest meraj' to ever exist and he would always put a weak hadith against his own opinion. On the other hand Seyyid Fadhlallah ignores hadiths and uses qiyas. Just have a read through his books and see how he uses qiyas (often with science) and ignores quran and hadith.

The problem we have with Seyyid Fadhlallah is not him as an individual, he is a great guy. The fundamental problem is the method by which he derives laws and now the laws themselves.

Hassan

Edited by YaZahraa`
I've just edited a sentence from your post, so that your post isn't going against the ShiaChat.com rules.

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