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al-khoei12

Threats To True Shi'ism

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Al-ghulat Lanatullahi Alaihim

bismillah wasslatu alla habib Allah muhammed al-mustafa salla allahu alaihe wa'lih wasallam

i noticed that today some shia unfortunately are more inclined towards ghulu (exaggeration ) in their beliefs about the imams

(alaihim assalam)

the gulat are kaffir according to the imams themselves and also

the great shia ulama and i klove to quote the master of shia ulama 's

of alla time sheikh al-mufid radhiallahu anh

ÞÇá ÇáÔíÎ ÇáãÝíÏ :

æÇáÛáÇÉ : ãä ÇáãÊÙÇåÑíä ÈÇáÅÓáÇã åã ÇáÐíä äÓÈæÇ ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä æÇáÃÆãÉ ãä ÐÑíÊå - Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã - Åáì ÇáÃáæåíÉ æÇáäÈæÉ ¡ ææÕÝæåã ãä ÇáÝÖá Ýí ÇáÏíä æÇáÏäíÇ Åáì ãÇ ÊÌÇæÒæÇ Ýíå ÇáÍÏ ¡ æÎÑÌæÇ Úä ÇáÞÕÏ ¡ æåã ÖáÇá ßÝÇÑ Íßã Ýíåã ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä - Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã - ÈÇáÞÊá æÇáÊÍÑíÞ ÈÇáäÇÑ ¡ æÞÖÊ ÇáÃÆãÉ - Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã - Úáíåã ÈÇáßÝÑ æÇáÎÑæÌ Úä ÇáÅÓáÇã he said that the ghulat are people who display islam and attributed to ameer al-momineen and the imams from his progeny alaihim asslam some sort opf deity and prophethood, and described them with attributes in which they overstepped the limit , and veered of the truth , THEY ARE KAFFIR MISGUIDED AND AMEER AL-MOMINEEN ORDERED FOR THEM TO BE BURNED AND ALL THE IMAMS WITNESS THAT THEY ARE KAFFIR OUTSIDE THE FOLD OF ISLAM

also imam ridha (as) said :about al-ghulat: whoever loves them hates us and whoever hates them loves us

some ignorant shia today attribute the knowledge of the unseen to the imams and that's a clear shirk billah and projects a bad image about madhab ahl-bait (a)and many other practices like saying imam ali has wilayat takweenyat astaghfirullah

these people are mushrik and dont represent us

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Salaam

The thing is that some shia are leaving their fiqha behind because of these ghulat because they think that shiaism is what these ghulat believe when really it is far from that. Also sunni's if given a choice between ahlul sunnah wa'al jamaah and true shiaism would always choose shiat but it seems the only thing they see around them associated with shiaism is Ghulat.

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some ignorant shia today attribute the knowledge of the unseen to the imams and that's a clear shirk billah

I prefer the verses of the Quran which you quoted in your Wilayat e Takweenyat thread which contradict what you state here, viz 6:59 and 81:24.

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asak wa rahmatullahi wa barakaato Hu,

Who is Ghali or ghulaat?

Imam Jaffer as sadiq a.s says: A Ghali is that who attributes to us what we do not say about ourselves a.s.

So, ghali is one who for e.g. creates a hadeeth or ayat, adds to it or substracts it to change meaning, creates their own fiqh, create their own religion, attributes to themselves attributes of masoomeen a.s , snatches Imam a.s rights, proclaims masoomeen a.s as zaath Allah swt etc.

Very interesting subject mashallah. ghalis are definately kafirs and mushrikeen. Lanat on all the ghalis.

Ya Ali Madad

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[Qur'an: 3.86] How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their believing and (after) they had borne witness that the Apostle was true and clear arguments had come to them; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

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asak wa rahmatullahi wa barakaato Hu,

Who is Ghali or ghulaat?

Imam Jaffer as sadiq a.s says: A Ghali is that who attributes to us what we do not say about ourselves a.s.

So, ghali is one who for e.g. creates a hadeeth or ayat, adds to it or substracts it to change meaning, creates their own fiqh, create their own religion, attributes to themselves attributes of masoomeen a.s , snatches Imam a.s rights, proclaims masoomeen a.s as zaath Allah swt etc.

Very interesting subject mashallah. ghalis are definately kafirs and mushrikeen. Lanat on all the ghalis.

Ya Ali Madad

CORRECTION:

Imam Jaffer Sadiq (as) said: "A Ghali is one who attributes to our status what we do not say about ourselves."

So, ghali is one who elevates the status of Imams beyond the actual status in the name of so-called maa'rifat. This is the correct definition of Ghali, as told by the Imams, so please do not mould this definition.

One who creates a hadeeth or ayat, adds to it or substracts it to change meaning, creates their own fiqh, create their own religion, attributes to themselves attributes of masoomeen a.s , snatches Imam a.s rights, etc is a NASIBI

In Imam Ali's words:

"Nasibi's are our enemies; Ghali's are Allah's enemies" (meaning Ghali is one who denies Allah, and elevates Imams to the status of Allah).

More hadiths of Masoomeen (as) can be produced to ascertain this definition.

May Allah curse Nasibis, Kharjis and Ghalis. Ameen!

Edited by fayyazabbas

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ASAK

Brother I was not moulding anything. I would be ghali if I do that. I am presenting you the translation from arabic and both your and my definitions meant the same but you seem to be very much stressing on something in the begining whereas I was stressing on it in the end. Active and passive voice.

Imam Mohammed Baqir a.s replied to a question on Muqassir that Muqassir is that who would refrain from gaining the recognition of Masomeena.s, Amr and Ruh, which are compulsory (to learn) for everyone. I asked, how one could recognise ‘Ruh’?

Imam a.s replied, One should believe and understand that to whom Allah swt associated with Ruh and has handed over His Amr (meaning Masoom Imam a.s has in his control both the Ruh and Amr). Thus, he a.s would resurrect and create with His swt permission. He would know what are people’s intentions and thoughts and all that has already happened (in the past ) and what to come until the day of judgement. This is all due to the ‘Ruh’ which is ‘Amr’ of Allah swt, thus whoever has in his powers both the Ruh and Amr is perfect without any inadequacies and flaws. He (Imam a.s) would be able to perform as per his Wish- which is the reflection of Allahswt ‘s attributes. He would go from East to the West in a split of a second, can reach skies and come back within no time; there are no limitations in performing any of tasks what so ever.

I asked, I would like to know about Ruh from the Book of Allah swt in order to understand whether it is among those command which Allahswt has specified for His Prophet Mohammedsaww. Imama.s said, read this verse: ‘And similarly we have sent to you our Ruh which is from Our Amr. Prior to this they did not know about the Book and the Eemaan. But we have sent down the Noor through which we guide whoever we select.

‘We have secured Eemaan in their hearts and provided them guidance through Our Ruh’.

I then said to Imama.s, God may bless you, it would mean that most of the Shia are ‘Muqassir’ I do not find any one of my friends who would be qualify to the qualities which you have described.

Imam a.s replied O Jabir! Although you do not know them but I know few of them who visit me, send blessings and ask about those hidden and sacred knowledge, which is not known to ordinary people.

THIS IS THE COMMON BELIEF OF SHIAS ABOUT THEIR HOLY IMAMS, Now tell me what is your perspective in this regard or what is the status of Imam a.s in your eyes?, in detail please. I even did not understood what you are trying to tell by starting so many threads on a similar and in reality the same thing.

Ya Ali Madad

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So, ghali is one who elevates the status of Imams beyond the actual status in the name of so-called maa'rifat. This is the correct definition of Ghali, as told by the Imams, so please do not mould this definition.

Bismillah!!!

Salam + Ya Ali Madad!!!

So who can claim to know the real status????? Do U????? Enlighten me PLEASE...

Lets look at the flip side..... If you can not comprehend the real status and you down play it, what does that make you????

Wa Salam n Ya Ali Madad!!!

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Brother I was not moulding anything. I would be ghali if I do that. I am presenting you the translation from arabic and both your and my definitions meant the same but you seem to be very much stressing on something in the begining whereas I was stressing on it in the end. Active and passive voice.

No, we were not saying the same things and don't oversimplify by saying "active and passive voice"!!!

I said, and I repeat that your definition of Ghali was wrong, except the very last part. The definition I produced was the conventional definition as used by the Imams and the Ulema.

DEFINITION OF GHALI by ALLAMA MAJLISI:

"Ghuloo (exaggeration) about Prophets and Imams may be of the following types:

1. To deem them as divine

2. To deem them as partners in divinity with Allah

3. To say that Allah has entered into their bodies

4. Allah is (physically) united with them

5. They know the facts of ghaib wihout wahi and ilham

6. To deem Imams as Prophets

7. To keep the belief that their spirits transfer to each other's bodies

8. Their ma'rifat (spiritual knowledge of their status) exempts one from prayer to Allah, and exempts one from avoiding sins.

Keeping one of the above mentioned beliefs results in kufr and ilhad (infidelity), and results in expulsion from religion. ... Our imams have kept away from such people, and have pronounced their kufr (infidelity) and have thus, ordered their death. Thus, if you find any hadith leading to such false beliefs, its meaning should be understood with proper ta'veel (modification), or it should be attributed to Ghalis' fabrication."

(BIHAR AL-ANWAR vol. 7 by ALLAMA MAJLISI)

Your definition of Ghali was your own thinking, and none of our great Imams (as) and our Ulema have used the word GHALI in this sense (Your definition was: "ghali is one who creates a hadeeth or ayat, adds to it or substracts it to change meaning, creates their own fiqh, create their own religion, attributes to themselves attributes of masoomeen, snatches Imam's rights." Such people are called BIDA'TI or NASIBI). Only last part of your definition was relevant i.e. "ghalis is one who ... proclaims masoomeen as zaath Allah swt". If any of the Ulema has used the word ghali as you say, please guide me... I would be personally grateful indeed!

Imam Mohammed Baqir a.s replied to a question on Muqassir that Muqassir is that who would refrain from gaining the recognition of Masomeena.s, Amr and Ruh, which are compulsory (to learn) for everyone. I asked, how one could recognise ‘Ruh’?

Imam a.s replied, One should believe and understand that to whom Allah swt associated with Ruh and has handed over His Amr (meaning Masoom Imam a.s has in his control both the Ruh and Amr). Thus, he a.s would resurrect and create with His swt permission. He would know what are people’s intentions and thoughts and all that has already happened (in the past ) and what to come until the day of judgement. This is all due to the ‘Ruh’ which is ‘Amr’ of Allah swt, thus whoever has in his powers both the Ruh and Amr is perfect without any inadequacies and flaws. He (Imam a.s) would be able to perform as per his Wish- which is the reflection of Allahswt ‘s attributes. He would go from East to the West in a split of a second, can reach skies and come back within no time; there are no limitations in performing any of tasks what so ever.

I asked, I would like to know about Ruh from the Book of Allah swt in order to understand whether it is among those command which Allahswt has specified for His Prophet Mohammedsaww. Imama.s said, read this verse: ‘And similarly we have sent to you our Ruh which is from Our Amr. Prior to this they did not know about the Book and the Eemaan. But we have sent down the Noor through which we guide whoever we select.

‘We have secured Eemaan in their hearts and provided them guidance through Our Ruh’.

I then said to Imama.s, God may bless you, it would mean that most of the Shia are ‘Muqassir’ I do not find any one of my friends who would be qualify to the qualities which you have described.

Imam a.s replied O Jabir! Although you do not know them but I know few of them who visit me, send blessings and ask about those hidden and sacred knowledge, which is not known to ordinary people.

Any brother references please??? I have never read this hadith before, maybe my lack of vision but references please....

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So who can claim to know the real status????? Do U????? Enlighten me PLEASE...

MaazAllah, I don't claim to know the real status. Noone can make that claim, when RasoolAllah (SAWAW) has said:

" O Ali!

Noone except me and you knows Allah's status!

Noone except Allah and you knows my status!

Noone except Allah and me knows your status!"

My understanding:

1. When people ask this question from others, they are trying to make this claim that they have better maarifat than others.

2. This question is commonly raised by Ghali's, Tafwizi's and Sheikhi's to make people convinced that "all" hadiths pertaining to merits of Infallibles (as) should be accepted, and their credibility should not be checked lest they become muqassirs.

May Allah enlighten us all... Ameen

Lets look at the flip side..... If you can not comprehend the real status and you down play it, what does that make you????

May Allah save us all from such situation, but in case that happens:

1. Several hadiths from the Infallibles (as) have the wording: "When a Ghali tries to access us, we don't accept. But when a Muqassir tries to access us, we MAY accept him." (BIHAR AL-ANWAR vol. 7 ; MIRAAT AL-ANWAAR)

2. All Imami Ulema have consensus on the kufr of Ghali's, but none has pronounced kufr for muqassirs (though both will go to hell).

It is our common attitude that we fear from being a muqassir but very few of us fear from being a ghali. Our zakireen and ulema are always stressing on the fact that we should avoid from taqseer, but very few tell us what ghuloo or tafwiz is.

The best way is to take an intermediate path, and never cross the upper or lower limits. The lower limits are obvious; for upper limits a momin may keep Allama Majlisi's definition of Ghali (that I posted in the last post).

JazakAllah

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--- MORE STUFF ON THE TOPIC ---

Answer - 12690

From: Grand Ayatollah Fazel Lankarani (fazel@lankarani.com)

Sent:Wednesday, October 11, 2006 12:24:49 PM

To: XXXXX@hotmail.com

I have two questions:

1. Are all Sunnis kafir, or they may go to jannah even without believing in Wilayat-e-Ali (as). When your highness says that it is impermissible to marry with Nasibis, who are Nasibi's exactly

2. Who are Ghali's, with whom nikah is not allowed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate the Merciful

Salamun alaikum

1) No, Sunnis are not Kafir and if they love the Ahlalbayt of the Holy Prophet (pbuh), they will not be tormented or punished in the hereafter.

2) Nasibis are those who hate the Ahlalbayt and considered them their enemies.

3) Ghali is one who exaggerates about the Infallibles (a.s.) and says things that not true. For example, (God forbid) he might say that one of the Infallibles is god or God's partner or can do anything independently from God.

Wassalam

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al-khoei12 you seem to be a danger Sunni practicing Taqiyyah. Your Islam seems to be the "Shi'a Islam" of the fool Nawasib Saudi Arabian government-paided "scholar" Musa al-Musawi and his kaafir, Nasibi book of lies "Al-Shi`a wal-Tasheeh" (Shi`as and authentication).

You made countless false and deviant "Sunni-backed" claims.

You said: "It is Ghulat (or exagerration) to claim the Imams of Ahlul-Bayt(as) have knowledge of the Unseen".

It is well documented that the Imams of Ahlul-Bayt(as) knew the Knowledge of the Unseen, and the act on your part of questioning this almost certainitly bridges on denying a central part of the Holy Imamate(as).

I suggest you read from the great website: http://www.answering-ansar.org/

On this topic you brought up; look here: http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/imamate/en/chap7.php; Quote:

Reply Three – Allah [swt] grants the Knowledge of unseen to his chosen ones [Awliya] through inspiration and other ways

One quick Sahih Hadith for you from Kitabl al-Kafi; Kitab Al Kafi Volume 4 Chapter 3 Hadith 421, Ch. 3, h 1:

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from Isma‘il ibn Marrar who has said the following "Al-Hassan ibn al-‘Abbass al-Ma‘rufi wrote to Imam al-Rida (a.s.). "May Allah take my soul in service for your cause, explain to me the difference between the messengers, the prophets and the Imams." The Imam said or wrote, " The difference between the messengers, the prophets and the Imams is that a messenger is one to whom Jibril (Gabriel) comes. He sees Jibril and hears his speech and Jibril (the angel) brings him (Divine) revelation and sometimes he may see in his dream like the dream of Abraham (a.s.). A prophet is one who may hear the speech and may see the person or may not hear. The Imam is the one who hears the speech but does not see the person."

(From: http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/imamate/en/chap7.php)

So without any doubt the Imams of Ahlul-Bayt(as) possessed the knowledge of the unseen. Of course the Imams(as) did not own this knowledge of the unseen; they were GIVEN the KNowledge of the Unseen by Allah(SWT). It is okay if your intention was to say the Imams(as) themselves do not own the knowledge of the unseen but they CERTAINLY POSSESSED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE UNSEEN, BUT THEY POSSESSED IT ONLY THROUGH THE WILL OF AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì

This is the same as the clear and unrefutable fact that the Imams of Ahlul-Bayt(as) possess the control of the "Atoms of Creation".

Further on this topic I suggest you read from: http://www.answering-ansar.org/index.php

Quote from: http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/cre...ed/en/chap6.php

By citing this reference the Minhajj al Nasibi are suggesting that control of atoms constitutes divinity. To suggest that this is divinity is absurd, for we believe that Allah (swt) gives this powerful to his chosen Servants. If only our opponents had bothered to examine the contents of the Holy Qur'an.

The Great Book informs us of the miracles of the Prophets of God.

"And what is that in thy right hand, O Moses? He said: "This is my staff. On it, I lean, and with it, I beat branches for my sheep, and in it I find other uses". God said: "Cast it down, O Moses!" He cast it down, and behold! It became a snake, slithering. God said: "Grasp it and fear not. We shall return it to its former state. And draw thy hand to your side, it will come forth white without harm. That will be another miracle." (ch. 20. vs. 17-22).

This means that the dead cells that composed the rod of Moses were transformed into living cells. Then those living cells miraculously went back to dead cells.

In chapter Al-Shu'ara, we read the following words of the Almighty:

"We revealed to Moses: Strike the sea with thy staff. It parted, and each part was like a huge mountain." (ch. 26, v.64)

Does this not mean that God made the sea obedient to Musa (as) to such a degree that Moses was able to divide the water of the sea into two solid parts, each of them as huge as a mountain in height and size?

The Qur'an Informs Us Of Hadhrath Isa (as) in Al- 'Imran, we read that the Almighty informed us about Jesus:

"And we will make him a messenger to the children of Israel (with this message): I come to you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird, by Allah's leave. I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I raise the dead by Allah's leave . . ." (ch. 3, v.49)

Here we see that the Almighty enabled Isa (as) to transform a piece of clay into a living bird that could fly like other birds. Is this the work of Moses or Jesus? Would the Qur'an invite us to deify someone other than God?

With regard to the Prophet Muhammad (s), we read God's word in the chapter of The Moon:

"The hour (of judgement) is near, and the moon has been split. But if they see a sign, they turn away and say: This is prolonged magic." (ch. 54, vs. 1-2)

This verse informs us that Allah split the moon in response to His Messenger Muhammad's prayer, and this never happened before the time of Muhammad.

End of quote.

So it is a bad lie for you to claim such things are Ghulat (exagerration). Ghulat would encompass should claims as saying the Imams of Ahlul-Bayt(as) on THEIR OWN possess the "Knowledge of the Unseen", etc. Again they were GIVEN this "Knowledge of the Unseen", etc. by Allah(SWT).

Also it would Ghulat (exagerration) to make lying claims like the Imams(as) are equal to Allah(SWT) or the Imams(as) have some part in divinity with Allah(SWT). May Allah(SWT) forgive me for even repeating such sinful and blasphemous claims.

Again it would be Ghulat (exagerration) to make lying claims like the Imams(as) are equal to Allah(SWT) or the Imams(as) have some part in divinity with Allah(SWT). May Allah(SWT) forgive me for even repeating such sinful and blasphemous claims. It is very bad to misuse true Ghulat (exagerrations) in an attempt to aid the Nawasib Salafi Wahhabi scum and liars.

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some ignorant shia today attribute the knowledge of the unseen to the imams and that's a clear shirk billah and projects a bad image about madhab ahl-bait (a)and many other practices like saying imam ali has wilayat takweenyat astaghfirullah

what sort of "knowledge of the unseen" are you concerned about? can you clafiry?

for instance, the imams foretold the future. such as, imam ali (as) is recorded to have to have told maytham al-tammar how he would be killed. or, the imams have spoken about what will happen at the end of the world before the zuhur. is that not "knowledge of the unseen" since the future is, by definition, unseen? would you consider that problematic?

what about the miraculous events that have been recorded where the imams knew about the people who came to see them before the people told them who they were, and this knowledge served as proof for these people that the imams were given their position by god? or when the imams offered assistance to people who were in dire need when they did not ask? that involves knowledge of the unseen too. do you consider that problematic?

what i am asking is, what element of the "'ilm al-ghayb" do you say that the shi'a ascribe to the imams but should not?

and, do you consider this to be a flaw of "hadith" or of "ignorance"? that is to say, are you saying that the shia have ghulat beliefs bwecause their hadith are inaccurate transmissions of what the imams said? or beacuse they are ignorant of their own hadith?

Edited by BintAlHoda

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^when people ascribe such exaggerated, in essence limitless powers, to human beings, they are only short from one day actually believing in polytheism, reincarnation, partnership etc.. to a degree that Allah (swt) becomes redundant for them and being devoted to God Almighty in itself and by itself becomes "primitive" and "unnecessary" when there exists "shortcuts". This is the bending of laws which makes the path to God Most Exalted obscure and leads to making "the straigh path" crooked.

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^ Ah, accusing others of shirk... God help you. If one cares to investigate, such 'exaggerations' are done by the Imams (as) themselves. Need I even mention the amount of "strange/weird/ghulat" narrations? I have posted one such in the other thread. Because it escapes your and my narrow limited intellects, you shall label it 'ghulat'? God help you indeed, and truth is often stranger than fiction.

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what sort of "knowledge of the unseen" are you concerned about? can you clafiry?

for instance, the imams foretold the future. such as, imam ali (as) is recorded to have to have told maytham al-tammar how he would be killed. or, the imams have spoken about what will happen at the end of the world before the zuhur. is that not "knowledge of the unseen" since the future is, by definition, unseen? would you consider that problematic?

what about the miraculous events that have been recorded where the imams knew about the people who came to see them before the people told them who they were, and this knowledge served as proof for these people that the imams were given their position by god? or when the imams offered assistance to people who were in dire need when they did not ask? that involves knowledge of the unseen too. do you consider that problematic?

what i am asking is, what element of the "'ilm al-ghayb" do you say that the shi'a ascribe to the imams but should not?

and, do you consider this to be a flaw of "hadith" or of "ignorance"? that is to say, are you saying that the shia have ghulat beliefs bwecause their hadith are inaccurate transmissions of what the imams said? or beacuse they are ignorant of their own hadith?

salam sister

my point is clear , the imams have no power of knowing the unseen and if we believe this then we contradict the koran

yes Allah might chose to show them some information from al-ghaib i'm not disputing that

at alla but that's exactly my belief

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MaazAllah, I don't claim to know the real status. Noone can make that claim, when RasoolAllah (SAWAW) has said:

" O Ali!

Noone except me and you knows Allah's status!

Noone except Allah and you knows my status!

Noone except Allah and me knows your status!"

My understanding:

1. When people ask this question from others, they are trying to make this claim that they have better maarifat than others.

2. This question is commonly raised by Ghali's, Tafwizi's and Sheikhi's to make people convinced that "all" hadiths pertaining to merits of Infallibles (as) should be accepted, and their credibility should not be checked lest they become muqassirs.

May Allah enlighten us all... Ameen

May Allah save us all from such situation, but in case that happens:

1. Several hadiths from the Infallibles (as) have the wording: "When a Ghali tries to access us, we don't accept. But when a Muqassir tries to access us, we MAY accept him." (BIHAR AL-ANWAR vol. 7 ; MIRAAT AL-ANWAAR)

2. All Imami Ulema have consensus on the kufr of Ghali's, but none has pronounced kufr for muqassirs (though both will go to hell).

It is our common attitude that we fear from being a muqassir but very few of us fear from being a ghali. Our zakireen and ulema are always stressing on the fact that we should avoid from taqseer, but very few tell us what ghuloo or tafwiz is.

The best way is to take an intermediate path, and never cross the upper or lower limits. The lower limits are obvious; for upper limits a momin may keep Allama Majlisi's definition of Ghali (that I posted in the last post).

JazakAllah

Bismillah!!!

Salam + Ya Ali Madad!!!!

Brother, I never claimed more marifat than ne one, nor am I a person who talks in codes... If I had to say that I have more marefat, than I would have said so.... So please do not try to interpret my words... They were simple and with no hidden strings... You are the one accusing ppl of Ghulat, which I asked just a simple question. who can understand the real status??? Your answer, as I gathered it, was "MaazAllah, I don't claim to know the real status. Noone can make that claim"... Exactly... So who are you or ne one else, for that matter, to claim some one else to be a ghali or not... Let the Personalities, who know, decide... You and me are in no position to interpret the next person's intentions..... Just keep in mind what Mola Ali (A.S) told AbuZar, "If you knew what Slaman has in his heart for me, you would kill him".

Let Allah (SWT) and his chosen few (SA) decide who is right and who is not... That's not urs or my decission..

Wa Salam n Ya Ali Madad!!!

^when people ascribe such exaggerated, in essence limitless powers, to human beings, they are only short from one day actually believing in polytheism, reincarnation, partnership etc.. to a degree that Allah (swt) becomes redundant for them and being devoted to God Almighty in itself and by itself becomes "primitive" and "unnecessary" when there exists "shortcuts". This is the bending of laws which makes the path to God Most Exalted obscure and leads to making "the straigh path" crooked.

Bismillah!!!

Salam + Ya Ali Madad!!!

Ah!!!! The very old Salafi argument... Prophet (pbuh)+ F was a human just like us.....

Try to understand they personality n they make claims.....

Wa Salam n Ya Ali Madad!!!

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^when people ascribe such exaggerated, in essence limitless powers, to human beings, they are only short from one day actually believing in polytheism, reincarnation, partnership etc.. to a degree that Allah (swt) becomes redundant for them and being devoted to God Almighty in itself and by itself becomes "primitive" and "unnecessary" when there exists "shortcuts". This is the bending of laws which makes the path to God Most Exalted obscure and leads to making "the straigh path" crooked.

right.

however, i didn't say anything about powers. i was asking specifically, what forms of "ilm al ghayb" are we saying that the imams have that brother khoei thinks are excessive/ghulat beliefs? since the original post was about ilm al ghayb.

my point is clear , the imams have no power of knowing the unseen and if we believe this then we contradict the koran

i did mention in a prior thread that, by the definition, the imams do not know the "unseen" since the "unseen" is, by definition, everything that is only known to Allah.

however, i am sure we would agree that, in shia belief, it is accepted that the imams know certain things that ordinary people do not.

my point is clear , the imams have no power of knowing the unseen and if we believe this then we contradict the koran

the "unseen" is a very broad category... i'm trying to get specific here.

for example, i have something posted on my wall right now quoting imam zaman (atf) who is saying that he is always aware of the condition of the shia. that is essentially "ilm al ghayb" since it is not something known to most of us. would you consider that a "ghulat" belief?

if not,then SPECIFICALLY what would you consider to be an "exaggeration"?

Edited by BintAlHoda

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