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Labaik_Ya_Zahra

Why Do We Do Matham?

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Salam All,

Salam bro Maula,

seems that we are thinking so differently n we follow different Marja' too :) but here my reply ,, however it is not so complete coz I feel if am going to write I will write a book for u n discuss it for ever :D

the fact i was trying to make about the shaheeds, is that our bodies ARE worth damaging if the cause is noble.

That’s exactly what I mean ,,, IF THE CAUSE IS NOBLE ,,, as i said am thinking differently

if we worried about the state of our bodies constantly islam would be trampled all over because people would be too worried to fight in battles.

No, we shouldn’t be worried abt our bodies for ISLAM n fighting for ISLAM

in that frame of mind, i was trying to say that for azadari, the incredible rewards and sawaab we gain for all acts of azadari done with the right intentions, are WORTH the damage to our bodies, within limits. no body is saying we should go and cut ourselves in half with a chainsaw lol.

Lool , but this is what som of our brothers saying n doing …. Don’t say our brothers not doing ,,, some of them ofcourse not all

if a single tear shed for imam hussain will protect us from hellfire how much more valuable will a single drop of blood be?

Yessssssssss, exactly n am totally agree but ,,,, not in the way some of us doing it ,,

azadari is something that is intensely personal to each azadaar; if someone wishes to read a noha, or do matam, or zanjeer zani, or kamma zani, and they feel that their grief cannot be expressed to their satisfaction without these acts, then they do them. we believe that our imam, sayyed ush shuhada (as) is fully aware of our intentions and can see we are doing these acts in his devotion and love, and we will be rewarded for our devotion.

Yes as u said he is fully aware of our intention but he doesn’t say that do this ,,,, I know again you will say can I tell u my mysterious shaikh :D just kidding

you know bro ,,, i do agree that Ahle Beyt deserve to sacrified ourself for them n it will be the same that you say but i think coz we are thinking differently ,,, i can't accept the way we are expressing our grief ofcourse with that knife n Kimma n these staffs ,,,, but as u said since u r thinking like that u hv the right to do this ,,, let it be ,,, it is just coz we ppl thinking differently n accepting things if we get conveinced ,,,, which is here u r convenced n me no :D

any how bro Muala ,,,, no need for appologyze :) u r my bro n sisters n brothers fights some times right :)

am glad that we can discuss n say our opinions n believes so freely here n to each other :) we r here to discuss n learn from each other

Ya Ali

Khoda Hafiz

Fari

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We equally oppress our bodies by fasting.....not providing it with food and water.....it can cause us to vomit become illl...so how comes thats not haram......nothin really happens to us when we do maatam in terms of serious injuries so whats wrong with it and plus add abit of the quranic verses mentioned by everyone

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We equally oppress our bodies by fasting.....not providing it with food and water.....it can cause us to vomit become illl...so how comes thats not haram......nothin really happens to us when we do maatam in terms of serious injuries so whats wrong with it and plus add abit of the quranic verses mentioned by everyone

(salam)

Kurray

O kehen day "Fasting is ordained by Allah, it is obligated in the Book" blah blah blah [as if Maatam is something proscribed, haraam].

The issue is simple.

What exactly do we lament, mourn, decry, when we do Maatam? We lament the injustices heaped upon Mohammad and Ahlal Bayt-e-Mohammd. Our Maatam is a centuries old tradition of PROTEST against injustice. Just as the Palestinians stage rallies beating their chests against Israili injustices [only the Israili injustices and the sufferings of the Palestinians are inconsequential when compared to those heaped upon the Ahlal Bayt. Just as the Iranian staged protest rallies against injustices during 1978 -1979 beating their chests and calling down Allah's wrath upon Raza Shah Pahlavi. Only the magnitude of the dhulm that was inflicted upon the Ahlal Bayt was a million times greater than anything Raza could have done.

In Iran, and in India as well as some other parts of the world, they stage passion plays in Moharram. Sinners, often blatant sinners assume the garb of maasoomeen and their companions in such passion plays. This is considered "permissible". When my sons, brothers, husband do zanjeerzani and become live shabeehs of the injured at Karbala, THAT is haraam.

Its all a game called love, sister. Pyaar. Mohabbat. Mawaddat. Which again is ordained. Ajr-e-resalat. The whetstone against which the acceptibility of other 'amaal-e-fardh-wa-mustahab will be tested.

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When my sons, brothers, husband do zanjeerzani and become live shabeehs of the injured at Karbala, THAT is haraam.

i agree with you on pretty much everything you said...but i dont understand why you say that particular thing is haram?

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Salams,

What's wrong with grieving for the grandson of the Prophet (saaw)?

"and do not thoink of those who have died in Allah's way as dead. Nay! They are alive but you do not perceive" Surah Baqara.

Beating yourself is not haram:

We read in Ahl'ul Sunnah's authority work Ma'arij al Nubuwwa Chapter 1 page 248:

"Prophet Adam was so distressed that he smashed his hands onto his knees and the skin from his hands caused gashes from which bone could be seen."

Those who deem the act of self-harm to be batil should look at the bloodletting actions of Prophet Adam (as). If Prophet Adam (as) can do this why cannot the Shi'a when mourning for Imam Husayn (as)?

"Rasulullah (s) was in a state where he was hitting his chest."

Saheeh al Bukharee Volume 2 page 50

"When Ai'sha was defeated and Ali saw the corpses on the ground he began to beat his thighs"

Tauhfa Ithna Ashari, page 523

In Surah adh-Dhaariyaat we read that Sara (as) struck her face when she was told that she would conceive a baby.

"Then came forward his wife in grief, she smote her face and said (what! I) An old barren woman?"

Quran 51:29

So what's worng with beating yourself? Nothing's wrong at all. When people say it's haram then they are insulting the Prophet , because the Prophet himself at one stage was beating himself.

Wasalams

Edited by Flower_from_Fadak

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salam (infact I am now from the School of Ja'far this for whoever think that i am a sunni salafi wahabi nasibi),

What you call "matam" is not a part of the Sunna of the Prophet (pbuh) and nore any verse of the Quran can explain it !

The actual form of "matam" and beating with chains or hands on your chest has been introduced by some Shia Dynasties nearly in 14 to 15 Century (I think The Buyyid) for political reasons as like the Day of Gadeer, or 10 days of the begenning of the Muharram.

These ceremonies are not a part of a Muslim's faith.

It's better in not doing that ! There's nothing logic in it ! (for the "Matam" not day of Gadeer and 10 days of Muharram)

Of course, grieving for the grand Son of the Prophet (pbuh) is not a problem and it's recommanded by some ahadith.

Prophet Adam was so distressed that he smashed his hands onto his knees and the skin from his hands caused gashes from which bone could be seen.

lol ! This is totally against the Quran and Islamic Law. And as for Adam, a Prophet of God, I don't think he would prefer to go against quranic verse to the extent that "bone could be seen" ! It's an exaggeration.

"Rasulullah (s) was in a state where he was hitting his chest."

Yes, but was Rasulullah doing this everytime ? I don't think so ! Once yes, but frequently is impossible !

"When Ai'sha was defeated and Ali saw the corpses on the ground he began to beat his thighs"

Same reasoning, one yes, but not frequently !

"Then came forward his wife in grief, she smote her face and said (what! I) An old barren woman?"

Same reasoning !

Conclusion : There is nothing islamic in what you call "Matam". On the contrary, I have never read in any hadith in which it is reported that any of our Imam (1st to 11th) done "Matam" or beating there chest with chains etc.....

If our Imam of the Ahlul bayt have never done this so why I (and the Shia) who loves the Imam of the Ahlul Bayt will do that !

Edited by bakr_umar

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(salam)

Kurray

O kehen day "Fasting is ordained by Allah, it is obligated in the Book" blah blah blah [as if Maatam is something proscribed, haraam].

The issue is simple.

What exactly do we lament, mourn, decry, when we do Maatam? We lament the injustices heaped upon Mohammad and Ahlal Bayt-e-Mohammd. Our Maatam is a centuries old tradition of PROTEST against injustice. Just as the Palestinians stage rallies beating their chests against Israili injustices [only the Israili injustices and the sufferings of the Palestinians are inconsequential when compared to those heaped upon the Ahlal Bayt. Just as the Iranian staged protest rallies against injustices during 1978 -1979 beating their chests and calling down Allah's wrath upon Raza Shah Pahlavi. Only the magnitude of the dhulm that was inflicted upon the Ahlal Bayt was a million times greater than anything Raza could have done.

In Iran, and in India as well as some other parts of the world, they stage passion plays in Moharram. Sinners, often blatant sinners assume the garb of maasoomeen and their companions in such passion plays. This is considered "permissible". When my sons, brothers, husband do zanjeerzani and become live shabeehs of the injured at Karbala, THAT is haraam.

Its all a game called love, sister. Pyaar. Mohabbat. Mawaddat. Which again is ordained. Ajr-e-resalat. The whetstone against which the acceptibility of other 'amaal-e-fardh-wa-mustahab will be tested.

i agree with you on pretty much everything you said...but i dont understand why you say that particular thing is haram?

Read the bold part with what follows. Her statement is an intellectual backhand on the faces of the opponents of Maatam.

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Read the bold part with what follows. Her statement is an intellectual backhand on the faces of the opponents of Maatam.

oh man i TOTALLY misread that bit.....i full dumb now lol :lol:

and bro oranje......you are the man B)

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Its all a game called love, sister. Pyaar. Mohabbat. Mawaddat. Which again is ordained. Ajr-e-resalat. The whetstone against which the acceptibility of other 'amaal-e-fardh-wa-mustahab will be tested.

I agree with everything you said, I just wanna add if one has no mawaddat then they will never understand matam.

In light of aya-e-tatheer mawaddat will be attained by those whose hearts are paak from love of ahlulbayt's enemies.

Edited by MOHIB E AHLAYBAIT

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salam,

Its all a game called love, sister. Pyaar. Mohabbat. Mawaddat. Which again is ordained. Ajr-e-resalat

A game called LOVE ? lol !

Hindus and other religion also have this GAME called LOVE (ie. PASSION OF THE CHRIST)

But love without intellect is nothing !

Edited by bakr_umar

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(salam)

And when my sons, brothers, husband do zanjeerzani and become live shabeehs of the injured at Karbala, they label THAT is haraam.

Its all a game called love, sister. Pyaar. Mohabbat. Mawaddat. Which again is ordained. Ajr-e-resalat. The whetstone against which the acceptibility of other 'amaal-e-fardh-wa-mustahab will be tested.

i agree with you on pretty much everything you said...but i dont understand why you say that particular thing is haram?
Read the bold part with what follows. Her statement is an intellectual backhand on the faces of the opponents of Maatam.
oh man i TOTALLY misread that bit.....i full dumb now lol :lol:

I have edited that sentence in my post to make it more clear.

I agree with everything you said, I just wanna add if one has no mawaddat then they will never understand matam.

In light of aya-e-tatheer mawaddat will be attained by those whose hearts are paak from love of ahlulbayt's enemies.

Quite true. And you will not find a person who has the love of the enemies of Ahlal Bayt in his heart doing Maatam

salam,

A game called LOVE ? lol !

Hindus and other religion also have this GAME called LOVE (ie. PASSION OF THE CHRIST)

But love without intellect is nothing !

If you are not able to fathom the difference between what I said and the example you have quoted, Allah help you

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(salam)

Crying or hurting one's self is a natural way of expressing grief. Some extremists go as far as committing suicide but thats haram and strictly prohibited in Islam. I would like to express my self with these ash'aar (urdu poetry).

Logo nabi(saww) zadi ka bazaro me jana,

Aur bandh k rassi mein darbaroun mein lana,

Is Baat pay routay hein Is dard ka matam,

Mazloom ka matam hai ye mazloom ka matam!

Feamaannillah!

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  1. WHY DO WE DO MATAM IS A QUESTION ASKED BY SOMEBODY, BUT BEFORE ANSWERING I WANT HIM/THEM SOME QUESTIONS, WHICH R AS FOLLOWS:
    Q1. WHAT DO U BELIEVE, R MASOOMEEN (A.S.) HUMANS LIKE US.... GOD FORBIDDEN?
    Q2. WHY DID OUR 4TH IMAM CRIED FOR 40 YEARS, WHAT WAS THE REASON?
    Q3. WHY DO WE WRITE SUCH QUESTIONS, WHICH HURTS OUR SECT?
    Allah DOES NOT OUR WORSHIP THERE R SUCH ANGELS, EITHER THEY ARE IN "RUKU", "SAJDA" "QAYAM" AND WILL CONTINUE TILL DOOMS DAY. SAME IS THE CASE WITH MATAM, (MASOOMEEN A.S.) THEY DO NOT NEED OUR MOURNING, LAMENTING. EVERY THING IN THIS WORLD DOES PERFORM MATAM-E-HUSSAIN(A.S) TREES, MOUNTAINS, BIRDS, JINNS, ANGELS, EVERY THING CREATED BY Allah.
    BESIDES, WE (SHIA) PEOPLE ARE SELECTED FOR THIS WORSHIP. DONT U KNOW, THAT ON THE BRITH (WILADAT) OF IMAM HUSSAIN (A.S.) OUR PROPHET MOHAMMAD (SAWW) CRIED WHEN HE TOOK THE BABY IN HIS ARMS AND ON INQUIRING BY JENAB FATIMA ZAHRA (S.A.) THAT AREN'T YOU HAPPY. HE (SAWW) REPLIED THAT ANGEL GABRiEL (JIBRAEEL A.S.) INFORMED ME WHAT WILL HAPPEN WITH YOUR GRANDSON (HUSSAIN A.S.), THEN HE NARRATED THE WHOLE STORY OF KARBALA. EVERYBODY CRIED ON HEARING THE SUFFERING OF IMAM HUSSAIN (A.S.), WHICH HE (A.S.) WAS GOING TO FACE IN THE LAND OF KARBALA.
    THEN A QUESTION WAS ASKED BY JENAB FATIMA ZAHRA (S.A.), THAT WHO WOULD MOURN THE MARTYDOM OF MY BELOVED SON HUSSAIN (A.S.). OUR PROPHET MUHAMMAD (SAWW) REPLIED THAT A GROUP OF PEOPLE WILL MOURN, LAMENT THE MARTYDOM OF HUSSAIN (A.S.) TILL DOOMSDAY...... AND MY DEAR ..... WE SHOULD BE HAPPY THAT WE HAVE BEEN SELECTED FOR THE MOURNING OF IMAM HUSSAIN (A.S.) AND HIS FAMILY (A.S.) RATHER THAN TO RAISE QUESTION ON THIS.
    BESIDES, DON'T YOU KNOW THE SUFFERINGS THEY (A.S.) FACED ..... WALLAH
    LET ME WRITE ONE OF SUCH SUFFERING......
    WHEN ON 11TH MOHARRAM WIFE OF HUR (A.S.) BROUGHT THE WATER TO THE SADA'AT, BIBI ZAINAB (S.A.) (UMMAL MASAIB) SAID GIVE IT TO (MINOR) CHILDREN. WHEN WATER WAS GIVEN TO SAKINA (S.A.) YOU KNOW WHAT SHE DID, SHE RAN TO THE GRAVE OF ALI ASGAR (A.S.) YOU KNOW WHY, BECAUSE SHE SAID ALI ASGAR (A.S.) IS THE YOUNGER TO HER (S.A.)
    YA ALI MADAD.....

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Edited by Rawshni

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WHY DO WE DO MATAM IS A QUESTION ASKED BY SOMEBODY, BUT BEFORE ANSWERING I WANT HIM/THEM SOME QUESTIONS, WHICH R AS FOLLOWS:

Q1. WHAT DO U BELIEVE, R MASOOMEEN (A.S.) HUMANS LIKE US.... GOD FORBIDDEN?

Q2. WHY DID OUR 4TH IMAM CRIED FOR 40 YEARS, WHAT WAS THE REASON?

Q3. WHY DO WE WRITE SUCH QUESTIONS, WHICH HURTS OUR SECT?

Allah DOES NOT OUR WORSHIP THERE R SUCH ANGELS, EITHER THEY ARE IN "RUKU", "SAJDA" "QAYAM" AND WILL CONTINUE TILL DOOMS DAY. SAME IS THE CASE WITH MATAM, (MASOOMEEN A.S.) THEY DO NOT NEED OUR MOURNING, LAMENTING. EVERY THING IN THIS WORLD DOES PERFORM MATAM-E-HUSSAIN(A.S) TREES, MOUNTAINS, BIRDS, JINNS, ANGELS, EVERY THING CREATED BY Allah.

BESIDES, WE (SHIA) PEOPLE ARE SELECTED FOR THIS WORSHIP. DONT U KNOW, THAT ON THE BRITH (WILADAT) OF IMAM HUSSAIN (A.S.) OUR PROPHET MOHAMMAD (SAWW) CRIED WHEN HE TOOK THE BABY IN HIS ARMS AND ON INQUIRING BY JENAB FATIMA ZAHRA (S.A.) THAT AREN'T YOU HAPPY. HE (SAWW) REPLIED THAT ANGEL GABRiEL (JIBRAEEL A.S.) INFORMED ME WHAT WILL HAPPEN WITH YOUR GRANDSON (HUSSAIN A.S.), THEN HE NARRATED THE WHOLE STORY OF KARBALA. EVERYBODY CRIED ON HEARING THE SUFFERING OF IMAM HUSSAIN (A.S.), WHICH HE (A.S.) WAS GOING TO FACE IN THE LAND OF KARBALA.

THEN A QUESTION WAS ASKED BY JENAB FATIMA ZAHRA (S.A.), THAT WHO WOULD MOURN THE MARTYDOM OF MY BELOVED SON HUSSAIN (A.S.). OUR PROPHET MUHAMMAD (SAWW) REPLIED THAT A GROUP OF PEOPLE WILL MOURN, LAMENT THE MARTYDOM OF HUSSAIN (A.S.) TILL DOOMSDAY...... AND MY DEAR ..... WE SHOULD BE HAPPY THAT WE HAVE BEEN SELECTED FOR THE MOURNING OF IMAM HUSSAIN (A.S.) AND HIS FAMILY (A.S.) RATHER THAN TO RAISE QUESTION ON THIS.

BESIDES, DON'T YOU KNOW THE SUFFERINGS THEY (A.S.) FACED ..... WALLAH

LET ME WRITE ONE OF SUCH SUFFERING......

WHEN ON 11TH MOHARRAM WIFE OF HUR (A.S.) BROUGHT THE WATER TO THE SADA'AT, BIBI ZAINAB (S.A.) (UMMAL MASAIB) SAID GIVE IT TO (MINOR) CHILDREN. WHEN WATER WAS GIVEN TO SAKINA (S.A.) YOU KNOW WHAT SHE DID, SHE RAN TO THE GRAVE OF ALI ASGAR (A.S.) YOU KNOW WHY, BECAUSE SHE SAID ALI ASGAR (A.S.) IS THE YOUNGER TO HER (S.A.)

YA ALI MADAD.....

brother, this forum has been infiltrated by wahabis/sunnis

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brother, this forum has been infiltrated by wahabis/sunnis

nobody has conclusively proven it to be haram either on this board or anywhere, therefore no one has any right to impose on us that it is haram. inshallah we will remain in our duty to maula hussain and bibi paak (sa) whether people agree with it or not, because whats in our hearts and our niyyats is none of their concern.

ali waris.

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YAALIMADAD 'n' Salamun Alaikum

Dear Bro's,

Thanks and I was expecting this answer from you. We need the people like you who will carry the mission of Imam Hussain (A.S.) and Bibi Zainab (S.A.). As we know They don't need our mourning or lamenting but we do it all for ourselves. Dear Bro's, remember me in your duas.

Iltemase Dua

YAALIMADAD

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salam,

Allah also help You !

Help all Shia !

(wasalam)

He has already helped me by guiding me into the folds of the Shia faith from atheism, and is continually helping me by keeping me on the right path. and keeping me mustaghni of any assistance from the likes of you.

(salam)

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(wasalam)

He has already helped me by guiding me into the folds of the Shia faith from atheism, and is continually helping me by keeping me on the right path. and keeping me mustaghni of any assistance from the likes of you.

(salam)

man thats the best put down ive seen on this board all year, it deserves an award or something :!!!:

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salam evryone

hope evryone is all gd

i jus was wondering when someone asks you why do you do matham what are you responses

if they say why do you beat yourself and they say that the prophet p.b.u.h says that you should not opress your bodies what is your answer to them

do you give any hadiths or anything from quran how do you reply to their questionss???

(salam)

I became a shia about 5years and have read a bit about Azadari. I must admit I still fail to understand the use of Zanjeer etc, because people do seriously injure themselves (i am sorry but thats regarless what the scholars fatwa that Zanjeer and sword matam is fine).

From my finding of reading about our Imaams (as) they talk about lamenting and crying. Imaam Ali Raza (as) says that someone who sheds a tear equal to a wing of mousquito, for the love of Imaam Hussain (as) will be rewarded a house in paradise. Of course others don't believe in our Imaams (as) but they can refere to their own hadith bukhari etc and find references of Rasool shedding tears and women coming to do matam on martyrdom of Hazrat Hamza.

As for the beating, I don't know if anyone else has ever noticed but if grief completely over takes you the first thing a human being does it to hit themselves thats how we deal with our pain. I would saying beating is part of our protest against the opression our belove Imaam (as) suffered. Not everyone will cry due to what ever reason (although I don't know how there could be a dry eye when Hussain (as) is mentioned). However, during matam everyone is standing sholder to sholder, demonstrating solidarity. Of course even in this case there are ethics to be followed. i.e. not chatting, smiling and so on!!

(wasalam)

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(wasalam)

He has already helped me by guiding me into the folds of the Shia faith from atheism, and is continually helping me by keeping me on the right path. and keeping me mustaghni of any assistance from the likes of you.

(salam)

^ Good answer. :)
If you ask me, its insulting to the member she is responding to.

(salam)

Listen brother banned

Having been on these boards for close to three years, having spent hours upon hours reading posts and responding to some, I have developed a fair knack of knowing who is fairly replying, and who is just baiting me.

I do tend to ignore the majority of such posts too, but being a frail human, sometimes anger gets the better of me.

It seems this is the case with most of us.

(salam)

Edited by Rawshni

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When they ask me why do Shiites beat themselves

- Prophets family beat themselves after the news that Hossein was martyred (in particular fatemah)

- It is permissable by quran (hazrat sara)

- It is permissable since companions did it too if they grieved (belal)

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I do Matam to keep the walls around my heart broken so my love of Hussain is stamped into my heart

Mashallah May Allah opens every ones heart and they are thinking like u

IS mourning haram according to Quran ?

Hazrat Ayesha ... um-ul momineen for sunni bros and sis's beat her face on the death of Rasool s.a.w accoring to sunni hadiths ? is that Haram

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