What Is The Self?

eThErEaL · November 9, 2007

what do we mean by "I"? is "I" even meaningful and how?

**layman** · November 9, 2007

(salam)

"I" is an entity in human which is not physical. And the "I" runs / rules the physical part of the self.

Allah swt, Muhammad waa ali Muhammad are supposed to rule the "I" of all humans / selves.

If the "I" submit to the wills of Allah swt through Ahlulbayt (as), then that "I" is not longer "I", but the Light of Allah swt (Tauhid).

Who so ever knows himself, knows his Rabb....

Human being is the slave of Allah swt, and the word "I" does not exist in a real slave....total submission...total worship...total in witnessing the Tauhid.

Layman

only1 · November 10, 2007

i is a term used by all humans, we are selfish beings therefore we use the term i

Asha · November 10, 2007

"I am we". what you do to my brothers and sisters you do to me. "Injustice anywhere, is injustice everywhere" MLK JR.

In a sense, there is a meaning in "self" as being part of a bigger whole.

waterfellled · November 12, 2007

what do we mean by "I"? is "I" even meaningful and how?

I believe your answer lies in a counter question ... What does Allah mean by "I" ?

What is Allah's Self ?

Dua e Kumayl[ra]:

* Allahomma inni ataqarrabo ilayka bidhikrika wa astashfi'o bika ila nafsik

* O Allah! I approach You, through remembrance of You; and I seek intercession from You with Yourself;

The Self is something exalted; the self is something to leave behind.

misunderstood · November 12, 2007

(salam)

Imam Ali (as) says: "Whoever knows the truth about the self, will know Allah".

The point of this saying, as I understand it is, since we cant know Allah and we cant fully understand the self.

But anyway, that should not stop us from understanding as much about the self as we can.

We all know that human beings are very complex creatures. And I think trying to understand the self can lead us to understand a lot of other things in Islam. We all know that human beings have dual inclinations. We need to control ourselves. This one sentence "we need to control ourselves" says a lot about us as human beings. It is as if we are not one being. We can talk to ourselves. We can 'control' ourselves. We can challenge ourselves. We can purify ourselves. So, we are the doer and we are the one the act is being done on. In other words, it is almost as if we are not one but two. That there is one side of us that looks after another side of us.

Qur'an and the teachings of Ahlul Bayt actually seem to agree with to this idea. In the English language we might have one word for the 'self', but in the language of the Qur'an there is more than one kind of self. There is the ruhand there is the nafs.

Ruh

Ruh is the pure self.

The Ruh that is directly from the command (amr)of Allah.

[17.85] And they ask you about the ruh. Say: The ruh is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little.

The Ruh is based on the nature of Islam, the nature of Allah.

[30.30] Then set your face upright for religion in the right state-- the nature made by Allah in which He has made men; there is no altering of Allah's creation; that is the right religion, but most people do not know--

This side of human beings is pure. Some call it the conscience. Some call it nature. Some call it intuition. But this is the real self. The thing that governs human beings. The real we.

Nafs

Nafs is the thing that is the mixture of the Ruh and the materialistic worldly desires. This self can be defiled. This self needs to be purified. This is the self that we (the ruh) must control. That is why you will see that in the Qur'an when Allah tells us to purify our selves, he always uses the word 'nafs'. For example: We say tazkiya an-nafs. We dont say tazkiya ar-ruh.

The Qur'an talks about purifying the 'nafs' and it also talks about the many different kinds of nafs, based on how much they are purified.

For example:

The most purified nafs mentioned in the Quran (that people interpret to mean Imam Hussain (as) ) is Nafs al-Mutmainnah ( íóÇ ÃóíøóÊõåóÇ ÇáäøóÝúÓõ ÇáúãõØúãóÆöäøó Surah Fajr ayah 27)

The most corrupt nafs is the one that pushes you towards evil, as mentioned in the Quran. It is called Nafs al-ammarah bis soo ÇáäøóÝúÓó áÃóãøóÇÑóÉñ ÈöÇáÓøõæÁö as mentioned in Quran 12:53.

Another example is of that self that refrains itself from commiting evil. That is called nafs nahi anil hawa. Translated as "[75.2] Nay! I swear by the self-accusing self."

And there are other examples in the Qur'an about the types of nafoos (pl. of nafs).

In the end, I would like to quote shaheed mutahhari, from his book "The Perfect man" ( http://al-islam.org/perfectman/ ):

Gnosticism respects the heart but scorns the self and believes in its abandonment. This, in itself, is right and Islam accepts it. But there are two types of self in Islam, one of which is negated and the other is revived by Islam, This is like a friend and an enemy placed side by side while our target of shooting is the enemy in which case we must aim very carefully not to mistakenly hit the friend. That self which is to be crushed is meanness and vileness, and the other self, which must be preserved, is the source of all human values.

The miracle of Islam lies in the fact that these two selves are so exactly distinguished that there is no room for error. In gnosticism there is sometimes a distinction between the two, but more often the friend is shot instead of the enemy, that is, instead of killing that self, the man and his heart are killed, Such an attitude, on account of the sweetness of the language of literature and its wider influence among people, has had a deep effect on the destiny of our society, and a perfect man, for most people, is the figure introduced by Gnostics. Therefore, a further explanation is necessary to illustrate this subject.

An important issue in the Gnostic school, in connection with a perfect man, is the relation of man with his self, a problem that is also Islamic in nature, Both Gnostics and Sufis as well as Islamic teachings are in favor of combating selfishness and carnal desires, But the fact is that this jihad against the self is an Islamic view which they adopted.

(wasalam)

eThErEaL · November 18, 2007

yeah, great stuff you all shared.

we are microcosms. as was just mentioned, we have a ruh and a body. and in between our ruh (spirit) and our body is the soul (nafs). our soul is in flux and is not static. dependning on our actions, the soul either becomes more body like or becomes more spirit like. our goal is to recognize that we are not merely bodily beings. our goal is to create a distinction between our ruh and our body by realizing we do have a ruh which is special nature. which is luminous and angelic. God says: "have not the disbelievers beheld that the heavens and the earth were all bound up, and then We tore them apart-and from water fashioned every living thing" (Quran). the erath is our body and the heavens is our spirit. we need to tear apart our spirit from our body (with God's help of course, hence the "We tore them apart"). by creating the distinction then the soul or nafs grows by recieving water (ingredients for existence and being alive) from God. by recieving water then only we become alive, living.

haidcat1 · November 23, 2007

salam

how do we know philosophically taht we have an eternal and incorruptible ruh, or even a moving nafs for that matter?

haidcat1 · November 23, 2007

Salam to all.

I have two questions for now in this thread.

What is the nature of the self/soul??

HOw can we logically/philosophically know that this soul is immortal.

Shookran

eThErEaL · November 27, 2007

Ask yourself who you are. what is the "I"? is this "I" the sum of all your mental acts? in other words are you merely the sum of all your mental acts? no. there is something that unifies all your mental acts and connects them. there is something that gives you your identity. you are not many things. you are just one thing. what is this one thing? can it be your mental acts (which is more than one)? No. so there is something which is more basic than all your mental acts which underlies them and unifies them. in fact, whatever this one thing is, it is the condition of possibility for you undergoing mental acts. this one unifying thing is what I would call my spirit (or God?).

I am just confused about what the relation of the spirit is to God. This is the way i see it.

alimasta · December 8, 2007

The real I is something

Beautiful

Which we all share

Look inside

Your soul shines bright

Wanting to die

And reunite

What it never left

**AbuHope** · December 10, 2007

I don't know about your selves. My self, My I, is the one who makes my eyes cry in prayer, my legs shake in dua, my body seized and frozen when thinking about the stories of the Prophet saws and his Ahlul bayt as, my whole attention fixed at being reunited with my beloved Lord.. that is I.

you · December 19, 2007

salaam alaikom brothers and sisters:

I am to add a few statements made by ahlulbait which is:

a person has more than one soul:

the nearest to Allah chosen by him have 5 souls:

the soul of: ruh al-Qodos+

the soul of: ruh al-Iman

the soul of: ruh al-quwwa

the soul of: ruh al-shahwa

the soul of: ruh al-madraj

the ruh al-Qodos is the one that guides the chosen ones and that what makes them speak of Allahs knowledge and truth ( now I am speaking of ruh al-Qodos by following the teachings of Imam Ali and Imam Assadiq )

this soul is not given to others but it may be copied

the second one is the one that is always with the chosen ones but the followers have it oftenly but when sinned this soul is lost! thats why there is a hadith saying: the faithful does not sin!

these two souls aint in the kafer! for sure!

the soul of quwwa( strength) is used by the chosen one with the help og God in worshipping without a mistake

also they desire that with the soul of shahwa(desire)

but the kafer uses these two souls as the animals do!

the soul of : ruh al-madraj is just the one we share even with the plants! and animals! what we move and grow with!

this is what I read in the tafsir of suratul Waqi3a

--------------

I must add a conclusion of the hadith: whoever knows himself will then khow Allah!

we each , meaning: every " I " of us : share things and lack in things and are created not by chance so when we know we are created we then know there is a creator!

when we know that we need we then know theres the needed one that does not need!

when we know that we have a beginning then we know that God had no beginning

etc....

so this is how we know |God by knowing ourselves!

this was from some teachings mentioned in the first chapter in the book of al-Kafi!

what else is there to know whats: " I " its " you" in another shape and colour with a fate that affects yours!

"me" is considered a part of this world with a role to obey and be out of self to fully submit to god!

nice topic but its night time to sleep to add more! thankyou

lfatima · January 2, 2008

(salam)
"I" is an entity in human which is not physical. And the "I" runs / rules the physical part of the self.
Allah swt, Muhammad waa ali Muhammad are supposed to rule the "I" of all humans / selves.
If the "I" submit to the wills of Allah swt through Ahlulbayt (as), then that "I" is not longer "I", but the Light of Allah swt (Tauhid).
Who so ever knows himself, knows his Rabb....
Human being is the slave of Allah swt, and the word "I" does not exist in a real slave....total submission...total worship...total in witnessing the Tauhid.
Layman

Wow!

very profound.. I always wondered if 'I' had a 'self' and what it was..

there is ame.. but there is also a prt which isnt this 'person' as defined by this body, name and label..

so who am I?

The Nur.. the Ruh..

As the Sufis say: Light upon Light..BUt there is an 'I' becasue Allah SWT wants us to love Him and his Ahl e Bayt.

I have reached a conclusion.. there are ONly two type of ppl in the world.. all other 'religions' identities, tribes are man made labels..

those who love the Ahl e Bayt As and those who dont..

I have many non Muslim freinds and some relatives too who looove the Ahle Bayt.. in India the Hussiani Brahman community fought in Karbala and till today are revere the Imams AS and the House of the Propeht s.a.w and are ready to fight for its cause..

Among "Muslims' there are many who oppose this thinking..

ppl like Thomas Carlyle, Mahatma Gandhi, Charles Dickesn have written about their love and respect for the Ahl e Bayt a.s...

May Alah SWT grant us the taufeeq to learn more and Hasten the reappearance of Imam ATFS..Ameen

seekers14 · January 2, 2008

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...p;#entry1548467

"I"! this is explain above

INNAH LILAH WA INNA ALEHEY RAJAOON.

Apostate_111 · January 2, 2008

"Self" is an illusion. We get this illusion due to greater awarness of our surroudings owing to the mental processes going on in our brains. Conciousness, or a sense of being, can be attributed to evolution, since it would in the benefit of the members of a species to be self-aware and thus easily safeguard themselves. Mind/consciousness is thus a fuction of the biological organ called brain.

eThErEaL · January 6, 2008

"Self" is an illusion. We get this illusion due to greater awarness of our surroudings owing to the mental processes going on in our brains. Conciousness, or a sense of being, can be attributed to evolution, since it would in the benefit of the members of a species to be self-aware and thus easily safeguard themselves. Mind/consciousness is thus a fuction of the biological organ called brain.

why do you say we get this illusion of [self] because of a greater awareness of our surrounding? May you explain the connection between the two?

faylasufi · January 20, 2008

Greetings,

"Self" can be considered as "illusion" because only God is Real, however, if God is envisaged as Self, as the Witness, as the Real 'I', which we borrow and employ in reference to our "individuality", then the Self is Reality as such. It all depends on how we envisage "self-hood", whether self qua individuality or self qua Self as Witness (al-Shahid), since in Reality and from the highest point of view only God knows God. "I was a hidden treasure and loved to be known."

This is why Al-Hallaj was able to say "Ana al-Haqq" or "I am the Real" without committing shirk.

Wa 'Llahu a'lam

lfatima · January 21, 2008

Greetings,
"Self" can be considered as "illusion" because only God is Real, however, if God is envisaged as Self, as the Witness, as the Real 'I', which we borrow and employ in reference to our "individuality", then the Self is Reality as such. It all depends on how we envisage "self-hood", whether self qua individuality or self qua Self as Witness (al-Shahid), since in Reality and from the highest point of view only God knows God. "I was a hidden treasure and loved to be known."
This is why Al-Hallaj was able to say "Ana al-Haqq" or "I am the Real" without committing shirk.
Wa 'Llahu a'lam

(salam)

Very beautifully said. SubhanAllah!

bonjer_gal · January 22, 2008

what do we mean by "I"? is "I" even meaningful and how?

what the "I" appears in this material world, is the representative of the "I" which exist in the non material world.

KSIMC · January 23, 2008

'I eat therefore I am' Subcartes

asphyxiated · January 23, 2008

The "I" is self-consciousness. There is consciousness and self-consciousness. Our recognition of our own self-consciousness gives us the notion of "I". Hegel says that recognition of self-consciousness cannot be fully attained without an other. Independent self-consciousness, through their mode of recognition, play a role in the "I" formation. I cannot form my self-consciousness without the other. The manner in which the other(s) recognize me play a role in how I recognize my own self-consciousness. Without the other, I am merely consciousness driven by basic desire and impulse - an object, if you will.

The importance of Adam and 7owa for me isn't merely a matter of procreation, but that of self-consciousness and recognition.

Muraqib ul tarighat · January 26, 2008

what do we mean by "I"? is "I" even meaningful and how?

"He who knows himself knows his Lord."

eThErEaL · January 27, 2008

"He who knows himself knows his Lord."

Beautiful, mashallah...but it would have been better if you explain this famous prophetic saying.

jonrhaider · February 14, 2008

As Descartes said, "I think therefore I am".

We are complex structures of organic materials, proteins and other substances without which life couldn't exist. All living things possess the ability to grow, meaning to take from its surroundings and benefit... Whether plants, bacteria, humans or other creatures, we have the power to comprehend the physical and natural laws that surround us in order that we adapt ourselves to function in ways that would allow us to continue to grow. Self preservation. By growing I don't only necessarily mean biologically, but also becoming more aware of our surroundings, more aware of our nature, of our purpose, of our duties and to rationally sort this understanding to contribute to the further sophistication of life; intellectual growth. Matter is not self preserving, and it would be illogical to claim that life evolved from pure matter.

This ability to observe and organize our understanding is what defines who we are. I am aware of myself relative to my surroundings because of my nature as an intellectual being. "I think therefore I am". I am the result of the combination of my biological structure (flesh and nutrition) as well as my intellectual existence (perception and rationality). Intellect is life, and life cannot develop from a universe in which previous intellect did not exist, and God (Çááå) swt is the initial intellect, the Omniscient (ÇáÚáíã) to whom we owe the gratitude of granting us knowledge and the ability to advance.

This is why I believe Imam Ali (ÓáÇã Çááå Úáíå) said that whoever knows himself, knows his lord!

ÇáÓáÇã Úáíßã æÑÍãÉ Çááå æÈÑßÇÊå

Yahya30 · February 20, 2008

what are the methods through which we know ourselves (so we can know our Lord)?

jonrhaider · February 20, 2008

what are the methods through which we know ourselves (so we can know our Lord)?

Our senses. Our awareness of our surroundings. This is how we know ourselves; however, this in itself is not enough for us to know our Lord, but we must add to our senses the faculty of reason. By doing so we can realize that our awareness of our surroundings is the result of our senses, which could not have developed prior to our possession of knowledge of those surroundings, UNLESS there existed another intellect who WAS aware of that which we could not sense, and granted us the ability to observe it!

February 27, 2008

Our senses. Our awareness of our surroundings. This is how we know ourselves; however, this in itself is not enough for us to know our Lord, but we must add to our senses the faculty of reason. By doing so we can realize that our awareness of our surroundings is the result of our senses, which could not have developed prior to our possession of knowledge of those surroundings, UNLESS there existed another intellect who WAS aware of that which we could not sense, and granted us the ability to observe it!

Dear Jon,

Déjà vu - this line of reasoning has a Kantian feel to it (Critique of Pure Reason).

jonrhaider · February 27, 2008

Dear Jon,
Déjà vu - this line of reasoning has a Kantian feel to it (Critique of Pure Reason).

Thank you for pointing that out,

I'm not really familiar with Kant's works, and as much as I would like to be, there are too many books that I want to read, from Descartes, Kant, John Stuart Mill (Consequencialism), Sir Thomas More (Utopia), The Plato Republic and SO MANY Islamic philosophers' works (Tabetaba'i, Mohammad Baqr Sadr (qs), Imam Ruhullah (qs) and so many more).

I just don't know where to start.

As far as what I was saying about senses, it kinda makes "sense" that we could not have evolved from beings who are not sensistive to light (for example) to beings who are, since if we were not sensistive to it, then we couldn't have known of its existence! How would we develop sensitivity to that which we are not aware of, without there being a motivator that was aware of it!

ÇáÓáÇã Úáíßã æÑÍãÉ Çááå æÈÑßÇÊå

Jon R. Haider

DrEaMa · February 28, 2008

As mentioned by one of members, the hadith by Imam Sadiq a.s "Mun 3arafa Nafsu fa qad 3arafa Rabbu", "The one who knows himself will know his Lord". I think these words are best to contemplate on knowing oneself. There is another saying, that refers to oneself in regards to addressing himself with pride should recite "a3outhubillah min kilmet Ana". I seek refuge from the word 'I'. You see the human being is a wonderful creature that can destroy the soul or elevate in purification. It is through time that we have been given to understand the self and through this knowing the Bounty of Allah swt. To delve in further, we as humans can enter dangerous bounds that can eliminate our self worth an example as such is when we become victorious we say 'I' did it and when a calamity falls upon us, we say it is what Allah swt wills. Knowing Allah swt can only be achieved by purification, the more we purify ourselves the closer we get to Allah swt. This is how Ahul Bayt a.s knew Allah swt, it was through their purification.

Fi Amanillah

DrEaMa

eThErEaL · February 28, 2008

what are the methods through which we know ourselves (so we can know our Lord)?

READ: "SUFI PATH OF KNOWLEDGE" BY WILLIAM CHITTICK.

Sign In

What Is The Self?

Recommended Posts

Guest Dialectician

Join the conversation

Recently Browsing 0 members

Topics