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In the Name of God بسم الله

Sajda Group -- their beleifs

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salaam,

The sajdah group is part and parcel of the Akhbaris however some of their praactices are now creeping out into the traditional Usooli groups.

The question being is Sajdah Tahzim allowed in Islam to any except Allah.

and yes i do know about the angels being ordered to bow towards Hz Adam(as)

The evidence is that Sajadah Tehzim was not a practice endorsed by The Holy Prophets (PBUHAHP) or by any Imam.

In fact if you read Nahjul Balagha , there is a story of a man dismounting from his horse for Tehzim of Hz Ali (as). In this story you will find that Hz Ali (as) admonished the man for his action.

This is just a man dismounting from his horse. How much more would this man have been admonished if he had bowed.

salaam

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Also what about eating the excrement of a horse in the name of Islam and saying that you will get Shifat and it can cure any disease. Watch any juloos in the UK or Pakistan with a Zuljenah and you will see one person walking behind it picking up its waste and putting it into bags and later they wait till its dry and give it out to eat and put in their hair. I have personally talked to someone who doeas this and have been offered some aswell. If you dont know what Im talking about they call it LID in Urdu.

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salaam as i said with all due respect to Cy Shah's mother and indeed his memory of her account to him.

There is a 'grubby' little book published called Sakina binte Hussain. About a dancing singing wown who lived in Shaam. The controversy has been firstly in the name of the book, secondly in the Shrine of Hz Bibi Sakina, and thirdly in comments attributed to 'Dhaku' about Hz Bibi Sakina returning to live in Medina.

The chinese whispers are now attributing the book authorship to him.

It must be understood that there are many academic discussions about the history of Karbala which perhaps is beyond the scope of the ordinairy man to understand because it goes against something that they have believed as gospel for many years. The mistake is in opening academic discussions to the general public.

salaam

salam,

DEAR BROTHER,

What is it i dont know but how cud u even say that discuusion in general public is like a mistake.Do you know what does it mean that u are saying what is publish all what happened with me was that i was stunned after reading what did u start last day on the name of discussion. i m in Pakistan tell me from where i can find that book.

wassalam

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salam,

DEAR BROTHER,

What is it i dont know but how cud u even say that discuusion in general public is like a mistake.Do you know what does it mean that u are saying what is publish all what happened with me was that i was stunned after reading what did u start last day on the name of discussion. i m in Pakistan tell me from where i can find that book.

wassalam

salaam what book is that

if you mean Sakina binte Hussain. As i said it is a story book and nothing to do with Dhakoo . I am surprised you have not heard of it. The books name is distasteful so it caused controvery in the UK. I do not know where to get the book because i rarely go ot of my way to read garbage.

As to academic discussions of Karbala, they are just that academic discussions. In reality what you and i are taught about the history of Islam is a highly distilled simplified form that is easy for the average man to digest. Moving academic discussions into the public arena would just confuse the average man.

Any person can of course seek to learn more and that is why u can go to Islamic colleges to learn more. If you are ready to learn more then u should do so.

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if you mean Sakina binte Hussain. As i said it is a story book and nothing to do with Dhakoo . I am surprised you have not heard of it. The books name is distasteful so it caused controvery in the UK. I do not know where to get the book because i rarely go ot of my way to read garbage.

Is it meant to be Nouzobillah a book about that great personality or is it just a fiction that was made as a means to Insult Shia and split muslims.

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Is it meant to be Nouzobillah a book about that great personality or is it just a fiction that was made as a means to Insult Shia and split muslims.

the book was not meant to be about Hz Bibi Sakina. The book was ment to be semi-fiction i gather. From what i heard the book was designed to hurt the shias.

I never read it so only talking second hand. I found the title distasteful in the context that it was about a dancing woman so never went out of my way o find the book.

salaam

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O ok I thought it was maybe a fiction with a offensive title but it is an actual attack on Shiaism then by trying to defame or degrade some great personalities we hold close to our hearts.

This is my opinion or rather the person who told me about the book. The title of the book can only have been deliberately offensive . Noone would have been stupid enough to have done it by mistake. You will have to speak to someone who has actually read the book to know more.

salaam

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Salaam

Some beleifs and practises I have come across are as follows:

Doing sajda to the Zari or after finishing the matam (hence the name Sajda party)

Not reading Eid or Jummah namaz because it is haram in the absence of the Infallible (as)

Sending lanat on people like dhako or even Jan Ali Kazmi and the more lerned amongst them even do lanaat on Marja

Not believing or doing Taqleed and anyone who does so is a 'MUNKAR'

Instead of Ayatollahs they have Peers how they turn to for answers and spiritual problems

These listed above are just some of the practices which the so called sajda party do, I personally dont have a problem with them or any of thier beliefs but when they start cursing the Marja thats going to faar and talking bad about people like Jan Ali KAzmi.

so true...

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^The thing is bro I don't have a problem with matami sanjats but when these kinds of practices become a norm it is very dangerous to be led astray from the true Islam of the ahlul bayt (as). Also it is hard to expose a practise which is little known and which has no documentation or record like the eating of LID.

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Salaam

Some beleifs and practises I have come across are as follows:

Sending lanat on people like dhako or even Jan Ali Kazmi and the more lerned amongst them even do lanaat on Marja

I used to have a lot of respect for jaan ali kazmi, that was until i heard him giving a speech stating all these people that go to shaam (Syria) and take kafaley are Jewish Agents??? how proposterous!!!

What i also heard him saying was about the Alam! along the lines of move on now no need to display the Shabees. I'm not one to get involved normally in the malang molvi debates but lanat is simply condemning (stating one is wrong) and not cursing. It is also as i'm sure you're aware part of our Faru E deen! (tabbarra) With all due respect I belive ones actions and not title (ayotalla, Alim, molvi) etc should command ones respect! Without disrespecting our true Shia scholars when our Imam Mahdi (as) will appear they will behead many shia scholars (i'm sure you know the numbers so we should not be scared to (even openly) condemn somebody when they are wrong be it a scholar or normal person.

I hope i have not offeneded anyone

Fee Imanallah

These listed above are just some of the practices which the so called sajda party do, I personally dont have a problem with them or any of thier beliefs but when they start cursing the Marja thats going to faar and talking bad about people like Jan Ali KAzmi.

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^The thing is bro I don't have a problem with matami sanjats but when these kinds of practices become a norm it is very dangerous to be led astray from the true Islam of the ahlul bayt (as). Also it is hard to expose a practise which is little known and which has no documentation or record like the eating of LID.

I have heard all these rumours also but... I do not think there are enough of them to label them as (The Sajda Group)! In my opinion there are less then 10 of them and by giving them the infamous title of (The Sajda Group) it maligns the rest of the mathami. Let us not give them any more attention or if you want to make a difference or tell them they are wrong then speak to them directly.

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Also what about eating the excrement of a horse in the name of Islam and saying that you will get Shifat and it can cure any disease. Watch any juloos in the UK or Pakistan with a Zuljenah and you will see one person walking behind it picking up its waste and putting it into bags and later they wait till its dry and give it out to eat and put in their hair. I have personally talked to someone who doeas this and have been offered some aswell. If you dont know what Im talking about they call it LID in Urdu.

can you name and shame these people? i have seen many videos i cant seem to see this bit, please pin point on some video from perhaps www.youtube.com

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^The thing is bro I don't have a problem with matami sanjats but when these kinds of practices become a norm it is very dangerous to be led astray from the true Islam of the ahlul bayt (as). Also it is hard to expose a practise which is little known and which has no documentation or record like the eating of LID.

salam ya Ali saw madad

i have been around these people off and on for the last 5-6 yrs...i have never seen anyone do the things your talking about ...and i would be the first one to ask ques about anyone eating horse feces..and doing the things your saying they do....i had also never heard of the term "sajda group" until i saw your post...i didnt realize i was part of this so called group apparently i missed the memo...but i would also ask if your going to make such outrageous claims then at least prove it...b/c i know lots of people and no one has ever done any of the things i have heard claimed against them...and i have heard some outrageous claims and even been present when some of these so called acts were supposedly taking place and i know for a fact at those events the practices did not happen and they were out right lies...

its one thing for a shia to have to defend their beliefs against wahabis...wahabis print lies about shia being grave worshippers commiting shirk and all kinds of outrageous lies and they have no proof...and all wahabis claim to have "seen it with their own eyes"...its a sad day when shia are now having to defend themselves against shias..making claims with no proof...

if this event is happening in front of your eyes...i dont think its too hard to pull out a mobile phone and snap a pic of it...otherwise i would keep silent...remember when one muslim starts labeling another a kaafir ..one of them surely is...

instead of being so concerned with what everyone else is doing..we should first look at ourselves...and when we are without sin then we can start labeling others...even if you see your muslim brother/sister doing something you think is haram...your suppose to give them 70 excuses...now adays everyone is an official member of the haram police and dont give one excuse to their muslim brother/sister...let alone 70....

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salam ya Ali saw madad

i have been around these people off and on for the last 5-6 yrs...i have never seen anyone do the things your talking about ...and i would be the first one to ask ques about anyone eating horse feces..and doing the things your saying they do....i had also never heard of the term "sajda group" until i saw your post...i didnt realize i was part of this so called group apparently i missed the memo...but i would also ask if your going to make such outrageous claims then at least prove it...b/c i know lots of people and no one has ever done any of the things i have heard claimed against them...and i have heard some outrageous claims and even been present when some of these so called acts were supposedly taking place and i know for a fact at those events the practices did not happen and they were out right lies...

its one thing for a shia to have to defend their beliefs against wahabis...wahabis print lies about shia being grave worshippers commiting shirk and all kinds of outrageous lies and they have no proof...and all wahabis claim to have "seen it with their own eyes"...its a sad day when shia are now having to defend themselves against shias..making claims with no proof...

if this event is happening in front of your eyes...i dont think its too hard to pull out a mobile phone and snap a pic of it...otherwise i would keep silent...remember when one muslim starts labeling another a kaafir ..one of them surely is...

instead of being so concerned with what everyone else is doing..we should first look at ourselves...and when we are without sin then we can start labeling others...even if you see your muslim brother/sister doing something you think is haram...your suppose to give them 70 excuses...now adays everyone is an official member of the haram police and dont give one excuse to their muslim brother/sister...let alone 70....

Bro just go on a juloos with a Zuljenah and you will realise that there is one person who picks up the excrement of the horse then you after the juloos talk with him and 9/10 he will be a LID eater who will use the excrement of the horse as Shifah and If you dont believe me just ask and observe yourself Allah gave you hands and eyes so dont just follow blindly like I said in my OP they don't document practices like this but to say they dont exist is seriousally ignorant.

You claim to have been with these people for 5-6 years but it seems very unlikely because I an outsider who attends the same gatherings as them have noticed but you despite being with them find nothing odd. Bro when you hear Muqassireen par lanaat who do you think they are on about ?

They are cursing Mutjahids and even call Molvi's who dont read Ali un Wali Allah Muqassir and kaafir. For refernce go to shiachat.

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one of them is called hassan aabid, the horse from which him and 3 of his friends used to get the lid from was called "saabar sain" and was kept in the back of 404 mosque in manchester. when it died they read a JANAZA for the horse, buried it in the back and built a zari for it. it can still be seen today.

one of hassan abids stooges, called sajjad, lost his mind when the horse died claiming (and i quote) "how could god have died". he has now become an apostate and works as a waiter in nawaabs restaurant on stockport road in manchester.

u want proof? go speak to sajjad. theres no point asking for the truth from hassan abid, any man claiming to be a shia, then repeatedly attempting to close down an imambargah and openly admitting it has zero reliability as a witness in my eyes.

oh by the way do you want to know how they killed the horse? the decided to save money by not going to a blacksmith to shoe the horse and did a DIY job. they hammered nails into the poor animals live hoof. all four legs became septic and it had to be put down.

i respect the shabi of zuljenah but this is [Edited] ridiculous.

[Please refrain from using swear words]

Edited by A follower
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There is not less than 10 and in the Uk the are booming with many sangats and ImamBargah's full of them. They are against mainstream shiaism and are now spreading their propaganda on the Internet also.

So please tell me, are you against a few silly people (unproven allegations) or against matamis in general?

judging by your quote above (UK is booming with sangats) please remember they are matami sangats not kafir (unless your wahabbi).

I don't know what kind of filth you have mustered in your mind regarding matamis but we (the matami) are not interested in you vile filthy thoughts! IF the imambargahs are booming with sangats is there anything wrong with that?

What propaganda is being spread on the internet? Is it the matami sangat as a whole that are spreading it? How do you know it's not a 7 year old sitting behind his pc at home or even a wahabbi?

You are coming very close to becoming an anti azadar, I really would take a long hard look at what you're saying and see what the difference is between certain individuals in a Manchester Imambargah and matamis.

As for eating lid im sure the learned out there will know that by eating any kind of feaces you will die from Tetnus.

If you seen someone eating lid why did you not tell them? Do you not practise your Faru E Deen?

If there are more then 10 people then name names or shut up!

Fe imanallah.

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So please tell me, are you against a few silly people (unproven allegations) or against matamis in general?

Read my OP instead of trying to defend horse worship because that is what it seems like to me and all other users on this thread. Like I said not all matami's are like this and infact most of the matami sangat's tried to ban these trouble makers from their mosques and Imambargah's like in Watford. I am aiming this refutatioin at the Sajada Group which is not a matami sangat but claims to be but its practices are just based on Azadari and they even curse those who read and call for namaaz.

I dont know who you associatte yourself with but clearly they are not the people we are talking about here and I wpuld advise you not to emotionally make me feel guilty and put words in my mouth like saying im against azadari.

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nastynas im a matami, but i dont see why you cant follow furu e deen yourself, you know, that bit that goes "NAIY HANIL MUNKAR". the reason why people attack all matamis and paint them with the same brush is that the world is full of utter geniuses like yourself who do not seem to have the courage to say "yes, there is a small diseased portion of our people who call themselves "matami" but that doesnt mean that we all are the same". instead almost every damn one of you keeps defending those [Edited] in ever decreasing circles.

stop defending those turd munchers. i havent seen them eating faeces but i GUARANTEE on my word as a shia, a momin, a lover of the ahlul bayt and a matami with my own eyes by god i am witness to them spreading it on their faces and encouraging others to do the same. not only that but hearing "inshah-ali", "subhan-ali and "ali-Allah". if i am lying then may Allah remove me from the shia kaum and turn me into an apostate and if YOU call me a liar may YOU be punished.

it is not unlikely at ALL that they eat it by drying it then adding small amounts to cooking pots. someone i trust told me that ijaaz sheikh from london was partial to that.

and as for hassan abid, do you think its a good idea to defend someone who was a FLAMING homosexual in karachi, who had an abusive boyfriend who would beat him repeatedly. hassan abid who changed his name when he came to the UK, and who repeatedly tried to shut down imambargahs both by force and underhanded techniques?

go on. defend them again. i DARE you.

[Please refrain from using swear words]

Edited by A follower
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(salam)

58 ThePleadingOne

19. The Shaitan has gained the mastery over them, so he has

made them forget the remembrance of Allah; they are the

Shaitan's party; now surely the Shaitan's party are the

losers.

Chapter 12:100 wa rafa’A abawayhi ‘Alal ‘Arshi wa khar-ruu lahuu suj-jadaa* wa qaala yaa abati haadhaa ta’wiylu ru’yaaya min qablu qad ja’Alahaa rab-biy Haq-qaa* wa qad aHsana biy idh akhrajaniy minas sijni wa jaa-a bikum minal badwi mim ba’Ådi an nazagash shayTaanu bayniy wa bayna ikhwatiy* in-na rab-biy laTiyful limaa yashaa’* in-nahuu huwal ‘Aliymul Hakiym

Pickthal:

And he placed his parents on the dais and they fell down before him in prostratation, and he said: O my father! This is the interpretation of my dream of old. My Lord hath made it true, and He hath shown me kindness, since He took me out of the prison and hath brought you from the desert after Satan had made strife between me and my brethren. Lo! my Lord is tender unto whom He will. He is the Knower, the Wise.

Peshwar Nights:- Third Session

PART 7

" If, however, we fall down on the ground in a manner similar to prostration and rub our foreheads on it (without intention of worship), this is insignificant. To bow down before a respected person without considering him Allah or to fall down on the ground and rub one's face on it, is not polytheism. It is the result of intense love. "

Moreover, the Holy Qur'an says in several places that the Angels performed the prostration before the Prophet Adam. So if prostration is polytheism, then the brothers of the Prophet Joseph and the angels of Allah were all polytheists. Only the cursed Iblis (Satan) was a monotheist!

These are just some of my references, I would like to begin with, giving proof from the Quran, and common books amongst othradox shias, It has come to my attention that there some people who believe sajda is only exclusive to Allah s.w.t, but these people have been misinformed. I would like to start this topic as It has become an area of concern. I would just like to clear any misconceptions and give this as an opportunity for people to bring there evidence forward from the quran and sunnah.

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theres nothing wrong with doing sajda so long as the intention is not to worship what u are prostrating to like Allah.

it was custom in the days of early islam for freed slaves to prostrate in thanks towards their masters, it had nothing to do with worship innit

they are called the "sajda group" but since plenty of good and decent people do sajda lets rename their group as the "turd munchers", its much more accurate and fitting considering the people who do that are the ones we have a problem with

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“If an evil-doer comes to you with a report, look carefully into it.”

(Surah al-Hujurāt 49: 6)

“Avoid most of suspicion, for surely suspicion in some cases is a sin.”

(Surah al-Hujurāt 49: 12)

The Messenger of Allah (S) says,

“One who exposes an indecency is like the one who has committed it and one who curses and criticises a believer for a bad deed will himself fall into the same sin before he leaves this world.”

(al-Kāfi Vol. 2 page 356)

refernces can be fund on http://www.al-islam.org/greater_sins_complete/

Turd munchers hey? Need I say any more, just look at what is written above. You have no evidence to support what you say. You are like the Nasbies, who say Shias spill the blood of lamb on rice and eat it, or even worse the shias turn the lights of on the night of ashura and sleep with there motheres and sisters. Or even worse If a dog passes you when you praying your salat it aint void, but If a shia does its invalid. Any how horse manure can kill you. Try eatting it sometime you might do the rest of us a favour.

So can anyone still prove else wise, please do so.

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they are called the "sajda group" but since plenty of good and decent people do sajda lets rename their group as the "turd munchers", its much more accurate and fitting considering the people who do that are the ones we have a problem with

There is a new name for them because I think they have split and now they are called KORA GROUP translated into english as horse group.

Turd munchers hey? Need I say any more, just look at what is written above. You have no evidence to support what you say. You are like the Nasbies, who say Shias spill the blood of lamb on rice and eat it, or even worse the shias turn the lights of on the night of ashura and sleep with there motheres and sisters. Or even worse If a dog passes you when you praying your salat it aint void, but If a shia does its invalid. Any how horse manure can kill you. Try eatting it sometime you might do the rest of us a favour.

So can anyone still prove else wise, please do so.

If your from the UK go to manchester and visit the tomb of the dead horse and do salaam to it lol and that would be enough evidence for you.

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Well I take it you must have munched some of it too?.. How else would you know so much about Turd... I persume you were making sajda too?.. or you got one hell of a sharp nose. Mind you I have been to that Manchester Imam Bargah, and have not seen no such thing... Perhaps It was your upper lip? anyways next time you are there visting the tomb perhaps shouldnt gett on you knees like a four legged animal or people might think your eatting it oo.

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silat_warrior im not gonna argue with u...... ive sworn on the name of the ahle bayt and everything i hold dear that what im saying is true and if you dont believe me, then quite frankly you....

i was in the inner circle of this group since the founders, hassan abid, anwar, shahbaz, sajjad and abid first came to manchester. sajjad and abid (the brothers) were already members of 404 and they were the first recruits. i was there almost every day alone with them and for almost 10 years looking after the horse, and the other animals kept in the back and i used to love and respect them all. every thursday i would join them for matam and afterwards eat the haleem that hassan abid used to cook himself. i always gave them the benefit of the doubt no matter what id hear people say of them until a day during the summer, that i found out about their obsession with excrement.

when i saw that, i stopped being one of their sangat.

and next time you see hassan abid, ask him who he used to share a flat with in karachi, and why he changed his name when he came to the UK........

listen to me carefully, cos i know ur ignorant of whats really going on and are genuine in ur niyyat to defend what you do. understand 99.999% of matamis are good, decent, god fearing men who love the ahle bayt completely and swear themselves in maula hussains service. i am not attacking matamis. i am a matami myself. always have been and inshallah always will be.

my problem is with a rotten few men. less than 20. what they do is outside islam. its my job to expose them because there are so many people- unfortunately you included- who thinks the sun shines out of their every orifice. you have to understand that they are not the great holy men u think.

be careful of them, and try and keep your distance. cos they are a walking disaster area and they WILL drag you down with them.

p.s. if youve been to manchester like u claim to, you must have seen the tomb they built for the horse. whats ur explanation for that?

Edited by maula dha mallang
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