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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why Hasnt The Shia/sunni Debate Gotte Over With Even After 1000+ Years

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  • Advanced Member
That is your opinion. And what are the reasons ?

Arrite, so an opinion on your opinion.

The reasons - egoism, egoism and egoism with thirst for power and pleasure to remain ignorant and deviated. This has been the case during the time of all the Prophets (A) where there were discrepancies and disputes in beliefs.

It's not the first time.

Secondly, Ahlul Bayt (A) have instructed to hate their enemies. Ever heard of tabarra? I'm sure you know. So I do not know what "reasons" or solutions are you advocating.

I had posted this before, but just to let you know, I'll post it again:

The Apostle of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "The best deeds are love for the sake of Allah and hate for the sake of Allah." He (PBUH&HF) also said in another Hadith: "Love for the sake of Allah is a duty (Faridha) and hate for the sake of Allah is a duty."

- Mustadrak al-Wasa'il, v12, p221, Hadith 13934, p226, Hadith 13948; Bihar al-Anwar, v66, p252, Hadith 32.

Imam al-Ridha (as) said, "The perfection of religion is: accepting our Wilaya and keeping aloof from our enemy."

-Bihar al-Anwar, v27, p58, Hadith 19.

Abu Jarud narrated:

About the verse "Allah has not assigned unto any man two hearts within his body (33:4)", Imam al-Sadiq (as) said, Ali Ibn Abi Talib, peace be upon him said, "Allah does not gather our love and the love of our enemy within a human's heart. Certainly, Allah did not give two hearts to man ... Thus, he who (really) loves us will purify his love for us like the purification of gold by fire, which does not leave any dirt in it. Therefore, if you want to know how much you love us, you should test your heart; if you have shared the love our enemies in your heart, you are not of us and we are not of you. Allah is their enemy, and so are 'Gabriel and Michael, and Allah is the enemy of the disbelievers. (2:98)'"

- Tafsir, Ali Ibn Ibrahim al-Qummi, v2, pp 171-172; Bihar al-Anwar, v27, p51, Hadith 1.

Imam Baqir (as) said: "... Is religion other than love and hate?" He (as) then recited: "but Allah has made you love the Faith and has made it beautiful in your hearts, and He has made you hate disbelief, wickedness, and rebellion. Such indeed are those who grow in righteousness (49:7)", and "they love those who migrate towards them (59:9)", and "Say, If ye truly love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (3:31)"

- al-Tafsir, Furat al-Kufi, p428, Hadith 567; Mustadrak al-Wasa'il, v12, p226, Hadith 13950; Bihar al-Anwar, v65, p63, Hadith 114.

Imam al-Sadiq (as) said:

"Whoever doubts in the disbelief of our enemies and those who have wronged us, is a disbeliever."

- Wasa'il al-Shia, v28, p345, Hadith 34923; Bihar al-Anwar, v27, p62.

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bismillah

Ay ay brothers!!!

The fight over Shias and Sunnis is not directly about religions and doctrines. They are fighting over the soul of Islam. The soul of Islam is its history. So they are fighting over the history of Islam. Which ever sides wins, their version of history (history also have sides and versions and interpretations). So It is not like other religion's devisions like Christian orthodox and catholic. They are fighting over doctrines of religion.

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No wonder we're on this earth brother.

Debates will never end, untill humankind ends.

Our belief is different. Debates will end, when the Saviour, Imam al-Mahdi (ATF) reappears which is what I've reiterating in this thread repeatedly. He will preach in such a way that people's beliefs and thoughts will be in conformity with Tawheed [unity of God].

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You have not comprehended the real problem with the Shia-Sunni differences. The main problem is that Shias hate some of the people whom Sunnis love. Shias say that these people have done a lot of mischief to the Ahlul Bayt.

(salam)

And what is wrong with that? Are we suppose to compromise our belief because it hurts their (sunnis) feeling?

If that was the case then perhaps Fatima Az Zahra should have forgiven Abu Bakr and Umar. That would make life much easier for everyone..right? :wacko:

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Since you have stated the causes/reasons as you say, might as well give us the solution?

The solution is not easy. The best one can do is to think of addressing the issue in light of the teachings of our Imams. In other words, try and think what our living Imam would have us do and to proceed accordingly.

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The solution is not easy. The best one can do is to think of addressing the issue in light of the teachings of our Imams. In other words, try and think what our living Imam would have us do and to proceed accordingly.

Okay thanks. But the reasons you gave don't coincide exactly with your solution. Because you said:

The main problem is that Shias hate some of the people whom Sunnis love.

The Ahlul Bayt (A) did too.

Shias say that these people have done a lot of mischief to the Ahlul Bayt.

The Ahlul Bayt (A) narrated the tragedies and lamented on the tragedy which the oppressors did on them.

So how exactly do we follow the Ahlul Bayt (A) in order to solve this problem of 'big gulf' between the two?

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So how exactly do we follow the Ahlul Bayt (A) in order to solve this problem of 'big gulf' between the two?

The Ahlul Bayt did not express their disgust of their enemies in the manner we do. They treated their enemies in a manner that is beyond description in this post. Also, they did not indulge in name calling as we Shias do.

I will tell you what I do in my personal life. I have some Sunni friends and acquaintances and while I hate the enemies of the Ahlu Bayt just as much as anyone else does, I try and avoid raising sensitive topics with them.

On a larger scale, if you are writing an article, for example, it is not possible to avoid those sensitive things altogether. But is is possible to treat the subject objectively rather than plain emotionally.

We can always try to deal with the subject in a graceful fashion rather than allow our emotions to take control.

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The Ahlul Bayt did not express their disgust of their enemies in the manner we do. They treated their enemies in a manner that is beyond description in this post. Also, they did not indulge in name calling as we Shias do.

You're generalising. Just because some [or most] Shi'as behave in that manner, doesn't mean we should cut out the hating or narration of the mischiefs done by the usurpers on the basis of the argument that, that is the root cause.

Secondly, even if what you say is correct - that 'the Ahlul Bayt (A) did not express disgust as we do' and so on. . the Ahlul Bayt (A) were still oppressed and tortured weren't they? The gulf did not recede if these were really the cause as you say. In fact, it expanded and we saw more killings of Shi'as day in and day out only because of the fact that they were Shi'a.

I will tell you what I do in my personal life. I have some Sunni friends and acquaintances and while I hate the enemies of the Ahlu Bayt just as much as anyone else does, I try and avoid raising sensitive topics with them.

I avoid such topics too although they pretty much show their disgust that we are Shi'a when they want to.

On a larger scale, if you are writing an article, for example, it is not possible to avoid those sensitive things altogether. But is is possible to treat the subject objectively rather than plain emotionally.

We can always try to deal with the subject in a graceful fashion rather than allow our emotions to take control.

Try it. You would get butchered for even speaking objectively regarding the issue like many of our scholars did.

Edited by SpIzo
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Just because some [or most] Shi'as behave in that manner, doesn't mean we should cut out the hating or narration of the mischiefs done by the usurpers on the basis of the argument that, that is the root cause.

Hating something does not have to be accompanied by an offensive expression of the hate.

The gulf did not recede if these were really the cause as you say. In fact, it expanded and we saw more killings of Shi'as day in and day out only because of the fact that they were Shi'a.

My experience does not support your statement.

I avoid such topics too although they pretty much show their disgust that we are Shi'a when they want to.

Keep your distance if you cannot get along with them. But don't do anything to make matters worse. That is the important thing.

Try it.

I have made several speeches in Sunni forums on the subject of Karbala.

You would get butchered for even speaking objectively regarding the issue like many of our scholars did.

Oh no, they won't do that to me.

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Hating something does not have to be accompanied by an offensive expression of the hate.

But the Ahlul Bayt (A) did and advised their followers too to recite this expression of "hate": 'Allahumma la'an. . '

My experience does not support your statement.

History does. I was talking about the Ahlul Bayt (A). You spoke about the causes and the solution which you gave was to follow the Ahlul Bayt (A). I said, if these causes are true as you say and you advise to follow the Ahlul Bayt (A), then the Ahlul Bayt (A) should have lived peaceful lives and the gulf should have been blocked then and there but we see it was otherwise.

Keep your distance if you cannot get along with them. But don't do anything to make matters worse. That is the important thing.

I would suggest this for all groups of people. Why only Sunnis?

I have made several speeches in Sunni forums on the subject of Karbala.

And that has stopped the massacres or oppression of Shi'a in different parts of the world?

Oh no, they won't do that to me.

Don't be too sure. I would advise caution.

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But the Ahlul Bayt (A) did and advised their followers too to recite this expression of "hate": 'Allahumma la'an. . '

That is not an expression of hate but of dissociation.

History does.

That is your opinion. I am not going to bother about disputing it. You are welcome to hold on to it.

I would suggest this for all groups of people.

Good idea

Why only Sunnis?

I never suggested that restriction.

I would advise caution.

Thanks

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That is not an expression of hate but of dissociation.

Looks like you missed all the traditions on 'love and hate'.

That is your opinion. I am not going to bother about disputing it. You are welcome to hold on to it.

Experience != History. So we can see what is opinion and what is fact. But your choice and your opinion.

Thanks

You're welcome.

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Looks like you missed all the traditions on 'love and hate'.

I know them very well and also their import in our day to day existence.

Experience != History. So we can see what is opinion and what is fact.

I know history also only too well.

But your choice and your opinion.

Your opinion against mine !

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I know them very well and also their import in our day to day existence.

So you admit there's an expression of 'hate'? Might as well enlighten us how to import?

I know history also only too well.

I thought you didn't want to dispute. You would like to explain your history then?

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Well its been 1400+ years since Islam. Thats a long time. Why is it that the Shia vs Sunni debate hasnt come across a conclusion? Why is it that both the sects are thirving? Why is it not that all our Alims sit down together with a sincere debate and agree to accept the others sect if they fail to win the debate? In this way whichever sect looses will lose their high level Alims and many if not all will be encouraged to convert. Dont our Alims have the backing of our Imam (as)? Like in Taqlid, you can follow any Marja you want, why cant we do the same with Shia or Sunni?

The debates continue because people die and new people are born. They see, think, and debate all over agai

Obviously the side that has the most to lose will never admit to a sincere debate because they are probably not sincere.

I dont think the Imam is interested in coverting people. Maybe he is more concerned about us, and Shia fiqh is likely to remain the minority forever.

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(salam)

i think the sunni- shia debate is over hyped. sunnis is 80-90% whereas shias are 15%.

hardly a split is it??

before the iraq war most sunnis wont even heard of shiaism and what they are.

i think sunnis are more occupied with their own than with shias

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(salam)

i think the sunni- shia debate is over hyped. sunnis is 80-90% whereas shias are 15%.

hardly a split is it??

before the iraq war most sunnis wont even heard of shiaism and what they are.

i think sunnis are more occupied with their own than with shias

Better get the word about the Sirat al-Mustaqeem out there, bro. :D Perhaps people will begin seeing the truth.

- Mansab Jafri

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(salam)

i think the sunni- shia debate is over hyped. sunnis is 80-90% whereas shias are 15%.

hardly a split is it??

before the iraq war most sunnis wont even heard of shiaism and what they are.

i think sunnis are more occupied with their own than with shias

Basically what you are saying is that Sunnis don't know much about Shia'ism... But I think if the entire Sunni world were to objectively learn about it without the lies and propaganda that exist about us, I think many would see the true path. Shias know about Sunnis, but Sunnis don't know about Shias... and Shias don't become Sunni... so what's missing here? ;)

- Mansab Jafri

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • Advanced Member

Bismillah,

" "But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you (Muhammad, peace be upon him) as a judge in all disputes between them, and find no resistance against your decisions, and accept (the decisions) with full submission." [Holy Quran 4:65]"

During the Prophet's (as) lifetime, and especially towards the end, Islam was the "de-facto" belief system and around the time of the Prophet's death almost everyone professed Islam. However, we know from the Quran....

" When the hypocrites come to you they say, "We bear witness that you are the messenger of GOD." GOD knows that you are His messenger, and GOD bears witness that the hypocrites are liars." 63:1

So in this situation, how would we know who really had become Muslims (i.e., submitted their will to the will of Allah (swa), and made the Messenger of Allah (swa) a "judge in all affairs") and who had not? Not by their WORDS, but by their ACTIONS.

We know that during some battles (i.e., the battle of Badr, for example) some "sahaba" fled, and they themselves admitted as much. We know that some "sahaba" disobeyed the Messenger of Allah (swa) publicly during his lifetime. This is clearly in violation of the orders of Allah (swa) in the Quran (3:132, 4:59). We know that some companions congratulated Imam Ali (as) at Gahdir, and then later acted as if they were never present or never heard the words of the Noble Messenger (as) when he said " "Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), Ali is his leader (Mawla). O' God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghadir_Khumm

These same "sahaba", who claimed to believe in the authority of the Quran, and the authority of the Prophet (as) later claimed this authority FOR THEMSELVES and acted CONTRARY to the teachings of the Holy Quran and the words of the the Noble Messenger of Allah (as). This was even more surprising since they has themselves witnessed the revelation of the Quran (in many cases), and heard the words of the Prophet (as) with their own ears and admitted as such.

So if "sahaba" during the lifetime of the most noble messenger acted such, why is it surprising that those who live 1400 years AFTER these events occurred are disputing with each other? May Allah (swa) guide us all to the straight path, and may we die as Muslims.

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Asalaamalaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaathohoo,

I think shias should either love Imams or hate thier enemies. You cant entertain both. Needless to say Imam wont command us something which he never did. Every Imam did tabarra by calling names and much more everyday after every salaat.

I dont understand why some shias get hurt when I curse the enemies of ahlulbayt. ANY PROBLEM?

It is impossible that haq can anyday compromise with batil either politically or religiously. You can practice taqayya while among others but not compromise Siraat al Mustaqeem for someone will get hurt.

The prophet a.s. says: Kullo hum behain Illal momineen. ALL ARE ANIMALS EXCEPT MOMINEEN.

Ya Ali Madad

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  • 1 month later...
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Most Sunnis are actually uneducated as to what Shi'ism actually is. I have talked to many brothers educated in Arabia, North Africa or by Imams from these areas, they were taught that Shi'a believe the Prophethood of the Prophet (pbuh) was a mistake and that it was intended for Imam Ali (ra). There are many other lies spread, like Shi'a have a different, or some extra Suras in the Qur'an.

I believe that the vast majority of Sunni brothers will come to the path of Ahlul Bayt once the lies have been dispelled and especially once Arabia is liberated.

Unfortunately what you right is true but i can equally argue that some of the [Edited Out] i've read on this forum regarding Sunnis is also untrue.

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