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In the Name of God بسم الله

Ya Ali Madad?

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(salam)

Hope your all in good health. Anywayz I am alwaying seeing people type "Ya Ali Madad" on SC. I never hear people (Shiite) say that in "real life". Is this like Pakistian/ Indian Shia muslim thing? Because I am Arab and I never hear and Sheikh or Sayed or the common folks ever say that.

Edited by ÍíÏÑ ÇáßÑÇÑ
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(salam)

Hope your all in good health. Anywayz I am alwaying seeing people type "Ya Ali Madad" on SC. I never hear people (Shiite) say that in "real life". Is this like Pakistian/ Indian Shia muslim thing? Because I am Arab and I never hear and Sheikh or Sayed or the common folks ever say that.

(salam)

Some Pakistani (I am not sure about Indian) Shi'as have in recent years started saying this along with or in place of salaam.

Personally, I am a strong believer in invoking the help of ma'sumeen (as) and, therefore, a believer in saying Ya Ali Madad or Ya Ali Adrikni. However, since it has been a distinguishing practice of Ismailis to say Ya Ali Madad instead of salaam (responded by 'Maula Madad'), I avoid this she'aar as a replacement of recommended salaam as that would make me look similar to that polytheist group.

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Why dont you say Ya Allah, by saying ya ali you are presuming he is all hearing and can aid you in your difficulties when he cannot, thats shirk. Thats a crystal clear refutation.

(salam)

Saying Ya Ali Adrikni is sunnat-e muakkida of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and a she'aar approved through taqreer (non-objection) of our Infallible Imams (as)

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Offcourse the prophet called Ali when he wanted something he also called on Umar and Abu bakr does that mean the prophet was calling on them as he called on Allah, you have insulted the prophet(sw) by saying he said Ya ali in the way you say ya ali, Even the shias place the prophet above the Imams why would he use Ali as his waseela to Allah? your argument makes no sense.

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Offcourse the prophet called Ali when he wanted something he also called on Umar and Abu bakr does that mean the prophet was calling on them as he called on Allah, you have insulted the prophet(sw) by saying he said Ya ali in the way you say ya ali, Even the shias place the prophet above the Imams why would he use Ali as his waseela to Allah? your argument makes no sense.

Salaam

Brother here is something that a shiachatter provided a while back and I decided to save it and I think if you read it you will get a better understanding into Waseelah and Intercession as a means of approach.

Calling upon the rasul(pbuh) and the holy imams(a.s)is not shirk

Shias are commited of Shirk (associate partners with Allah) when they say “Ya Mohamed,” “Ya Ali,” …etc.*

*Ofcoarse Shirk or what is know as Polytheism is haram.

Wahabies & Sunnies usually go through the exact same sequence when it comes to the issue of intercession. The Discussion about this matter usually start by the Sunnies/Wahabies saying:" If anyone asks other than Allah it is shirk. For example the Quran says: "Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) we ask for help." Quran[1:5]"

Such claims can be refuted so easily by indicating that these people have taken this verse out of context, and let me show you how. For example, if your friend has asked you to help him move furniture from one place to another, will your friend be committing shirk? He is asking you for help isn’t he? Why doesn't he ask Allah(swt) to help him/her straight away !? Why does he call upon you for your help!? According to the ideology such people have, then such a person asking others for help is also Shirk!

as for the claim that "err, it is ok to ask the living for help because they can help you, but you can’t ask the dead for help." Backing up their selves with Verses from the Holy Quran such as :" Verily! thou canst not make the dead to hear, nor canst thou make the deaf to hear the call when they have turned to flee. " Quran[27:80] they also claim that the Dead can't hear so for that reason it is Shirk to call upon the Prophet(pbuh&hf) and the Holy Imams(as) though this understanding of theirs is contradictory to the Holy Quran itself and their Narrations books.

First Allah(swt) in the Holy Quran says:

"And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive." Quran[2:154]

Taking this verse into perspective, Prophet Mohammad(pbuh&hf) and the Holy Imams(as) are not dead, for they have been slain in the way of Allah(swt) and thus are not to be called dead because they are not.

Secondly, According to Saheeh Bukhari (Volume 2, Book 23, Number 453), This verse means that the dead now know that the prophet used to say the truth.

Moreover, there are many narrations in Sunnie books that prove that the dead can hear. For Example, in Saheeh Bukhari (Volume 2, Book 23, Number 452) and (Volume 5, Book 59, Number 360) the Prophet(pbuh&hf) told the companions that the dead hear better than us.

*Read these Hadeeths Online from the links provided above.

And this is when the Sunnies usually stop. They do not grasp how deep Tawheed(Monotheism) is in the school of Ahlul-bayt(as). Shias say that anything can be done only with Allah’s well. For example, if someone believes that water will quench his thirst independent from Allah, this is shirk. If someone believes that the doctor can cure him independent from Allah, this is shirk. Shias say that everything happens with God’s well. And praying to any other than Allah is Shirk.

There are many evidences to prove that intercession is permitted and actually encouraged.

1. Qurananic Evidence.

A."O ye who believe! Be mindful of your duty to Allah, and seek the way of approach unto Him, and strive in His way in order that ye may succeed." Quran[5:35].

Allah(swt) is telling us to mind our duty and find means of approaching him. Allah can be approached through good deeds like prayer, fasting, charity, and through the dearest to Allah. And who is closer to Allah than the best of creation, Prophet Mohammad(pbuh&hf) and his Household(as).

B.“We did not send a messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah’s permission; and had they, when they had done injustice to themselves, come to you and asked Allah’s forgiveness; and the messenger (also) had asked pardon for them, surely, they would have found Allah oft-returning, merciful” Quran[4:64]

Here it has been made clear that the presence of the Prophet of Allah (SWT) has been a way for the people to use as a means of approach in asking forgiveness.

2. Logical Evidence.

Imagine someone who wants to work in a company, but he does not think that he is qualified to get the job. It happens that the President of the company is the father of his friend. Now, his chances of being hired in that company are higher if he applies to the position through his friend than if he applied by himself. Then, it is up to the president of the company to accept that person’s application or not.

This is a good parable that explains what intercession is. Many of us might have sins that hinder the dua’, and we can have better chances of the dua’ being accepted by Allah if we ask him by the sake of those whom he loves.

3. Hadith Evidence.

A.Narrated Anas: Whenever there was drought, ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab used to ask Allah for rain through Al-‘Abbas bin ‘Abdul Muttalib, saying, “ O Allah! We used to request our Prophet to ask You for rain, and You would give us. Now we request the uncle of our Prophet to ask You for rain, so give us rain.” And they would be given rain.” (Volume 5, Book 57, Number 59)

B. Al-Bukhari narrated in his book “ Al-Adab Al-Mofrad” the following narration that has also been authenticated by Ibn Taimiah in his book “ Al-Kalim Al Taib”: Narrated Al-Haytham bin Khanash: he said: “ we were with Abdullah bin ‘Umar when his leg fill numb, so a man told him: “ mention the dearest man to you,” so he said, “ Ya Mohamed” and he got better.

This has also been narrated by:

•Ibn Al-Sni in “ ‘Amal Al-Youm wa Al-Layla”

•Al-Nawawi in his book “ Al-Athkar”

•Alhafith Shams Al-Din bin Al-Jazary in his book “ Al-Husn Al-Hasin”

Prophet Musa(as) and Prophet Muhammad(pbuh&hf) both prayed for helpers to ease their burdens

Right from the beginning of his mission Musa(as) prayed as follows:

“Musa said: O Allah! assign me a Vizier from my family, (that is) my brother Haroon. Add to my strength through him, and make him share my task: that we may celebrate thy praise without stint... (Allah) said: “We granted your requests, O Musa” Holy Quran[20:29-36]

Now here Musa(as) is asking for help, not from Allah(swt) alone but from his brother as well. He is NOT turning to Allah(swt) exclusively for help he is asking help from another human as well, is this an act of shirk?

Interestingly Suyuti in his commentary of the above verse sites the following tradition:

“When this verse descended, The Prophet(pbuh&hf) was on a mountain, straight after it’s descent, The Prophet(pbuh&hf) prayed to Allah, ‘Oh Allah! Through my brother Ali, ease the burden on my back’, and Allah accepted this prayer”

Tafsir Durre Manthur, by Jaladin Suyuti, Vol 4 p 295

Why is Rasulullah(pbuh&hf) not asking Allah(swt) for help? Would Al Khider not assert that calling on others for help is Shirk? Yet here Rasulullah (s) is asking Allah (swt) that Ali (as) be made his helper. This being the case is it not Sunnah to seek help from Imam Ali (as)? Whose words should we deem to be more important, those of all Khider or those of Rasulullah (s)?

The Bani Israil turned to Prophet Musa(as) for help

In Surah Araf we read as follows:

“We divided them into twelve tribes or nations. We directed Moses by inspiration, when his (thirsty) people asked him for water: "Strike the rock with thy staff": out of it there gushed forth twelve springs: Each group knew its own place for water. We gave them the shade of clouds, and sent down to them manna and quails, (saying): "Eat of the good things We have provided for you": (but they rebelled); to Us they did no harm, but they harmed their own souls" Holy Quran[7:160].

Here the tribe of Bani Israil were thirsty, rather than seek Allah(swt) for sustenance they turned to Hadhrath Musa(as) to answer their prayers. Now if seeking the aid of another is Shirk then surely Musa(as) would have condemned them and told them to pray to Allah(swt), but he did not. Here the 'rod' acted as a Wasila, Allah(swt) could have sent down rain from the skies, and yet Allah(swt) instructed Musa(as) to strike the rod on the rock. The Bani Israil turned to Musa(as) and it was through him(as) that Allah(swt) answered their prayers.

Prophet Sulayman(as) sought the help of the people not AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì

And then we have these verses in Surah Naml:

"He said (to his own men): "Ye chiefs! which of you can bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?"

Said an 'Ifrit, of the Jinns: "I will bring it to thee before thou rise from thy council: indeed I have full strength for the purpose, and may be trusted."

Said one who had knowledge of the Book: "I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!" Then when (Solomon) saw it placed firmly before him, he said: "This is by the Grace of my Lord!- to test me whether I am grateful or ungrateful! and if any is grateful, truly his gratitude is (a gain) for his own soul; but if any is ungrateful, truly my Lord is Free of all Needs, Supreme in Honour !" Holy Quran[27:38-40]

So here we learn:

1. Prophet Sulayman(as) asked for the throne of Bilkis to be brought to him

2. He(as) did not pray to Allah(swt) he asked for the help from his supporters

3. A Servant with partial knowledge of the Book was able to bring the throne within the twinkling of an eye.

Now clearly a Prophet(as) has more power than an ordinary human being and yet he asked for help from one of his companions, if seeking the help from other than Allah(swt) is shirk, then why did Prophet Sulayman(as) seek the help from am inferior subject? Would you logic not deem this to be an act of shirk?

Now, if a Prophet(as) can seek the assistance of an individual with a partial knowledge of the Book why can’t I seek help from Rasulullah(pbuh&hf) who was the talking Qur’an, or from Maula Ali(as) who declared that he had a complete knowledge of the Book? In this regards we have the testimony of the great Sahaba Ibn Mas'ud said:

"The Holy Quran has outward and inward meanings, and Ali Ibn Abi Talib has the knowledge of both."

Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v1, p65

In addition contemplate these words of Imam Ali(as):

“ask me about the Book of Allah, because there is no Ayah but that I know whether it was revealed at night or in daytime, on the plain or in the mountain”

History of the Khailfa’s who took the right way by Jalaladeen Suyuti, English translation by Abdassamad Clarke, p 194

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Hope your all in good health. Anywayz I am alwaying seeing people type "Ya Ali Madad" on SC. I never hear people (Shiite) say that in "real life". Is this like Pakistian/ Indian Shia muslim thing? Because I am Arab and I never hear and Sheikh or Sayed or the common folks ever say that.

Brother by asking that question you are on the tip of a huge ice berg and you are better off not asking. Certain shia's have developed new innovations under the premise of the love for ahlul bayt when in actual fact they have gone astray from the deen. They replace Ya Ali Madat for the Salaam just like the GHULAT and now they even do sajda to Zari's and Zuljenah's and some even eat the excrement of the Zuljenah's. Basically they are a new group of GHULAT soming in and tricking the Shiah and have made thier group name SAJDA GROUP. Amongst thier strange practises is cursing the Mujtahids and Marjae and anyone who disagrees with them.

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Brother save your rhetoric im very familiar with the shia ideologies at the end it all comes down to wether the person your calling ie the prophet or the imam are actually all hearing or not? Now would u argue with me that only Allah is all hearing and all seeing? In my opinion some of the shia beliefs were local beleifs of the people who accepted shia islam and over centuries it has become part of the shia religion go to Pakistan,India and Iran and alot of the local people have great monuments over there dead saints and they do an annual pilgrimage to each of these "ziaras" so they can be blessed and pure. Over many centuries the Shias have come to accept these sort of rituals and provided vague ayahs and ahadeeth to provide evidance for there deviation just like the Ismailis and Alawis. None of these rituals were performed or encouraged by the prophet on the contrary the prophet gave the muslims a very brutally honest logical truth to death and after life none of which included go over my grave and ask for blessings.

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Brother by asking that question you are on the tip of a huge ice berg and you are better off not asking. Certain shia's have developed new innovations under the premise of the love for ahlul bayt when in actual fact they have gone astray from the deen. They replace Ya Ali Madat for the Salaam just like the GHULAT and now they even do sajda to Zari's and Zuljenah's and some even eat the excrement of the Zuljenah's. Basically they are a new group of GHULAT soming in and tricking the Shiah and have made thier group name SAJDA GROUP. Amongst thier strange practises is cursing the Mujtahids and Marjae and anyone who disagrees with them.

This is very true, and might help you understand where Iam coming from about people going to graves and asking the dead for blessings, these rituals all lead to the above you mentioned so its better off avoiding it all together, the prophet never asked us to do any of these rituals yet you defend it. Why cant we just say YA Allah pray go to haj pay zakat instead of dancing around dead people.

Today the shias allow so called "tawasull" and depicting images of Imam Ali, these are all leading to shirk this is not very hard to comprehend.

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Today the shias allow so called "tawasull" and depicting images of Imam Ali, these are all leading to shirk this is not very hard to comprehend.

Bro the shia are a very large and diverse community and some beliefs like the one you mention there is not universal amongst us.

This is very true, and might help you understand where Iam coming from about people going to graves and asking the dead for blessings, these rituals all lead to the above you mentioned so its better off avoiding it all together, the prophet never asked us to do any of these rituals yet you defend it. Why cant we just say YA Allah pray go to haj pay zakat instead of dancing around dead people.

Interesting how you said dancing around dead people because I can post a very good video showing Sunni doing this so called 'Dancing around dead people'. Now would it be fair for me to say that the Sunni fiqha leads to this deviation or should I hold this the belief and action of all Sunni like you did to shia ?

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I agree with you i didnt say all shias are deviated in fact i know many who are against the beleifs that most in here would deem as acceptable, Some sunnis too have been corrupted by sufis and deviated scholars. The only way for slavation of this deen is for us to follow the Quran and the prophet and reject those heretic beliefs that have no basis in the religion of islam like pilgrimages of the graves, sufism these arent sect specific rituals but the ulema themselves have been thought that which was wrong eg an aalim might know all the tricks of how to do the perfect pilgrimage of the grave and alot of people might deem him to be very knowledgable but when a logical person comes and tells the aalim and his followers that all these are wrong the people automtically assume the aalim is right due to the number of people who adhere to his beliefs. (Appeal to population)

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Assalam ala man ittaba al-huda

Why dont you say Ya Allah, by saying ya ali you are presuming he is all hearing and can aid you in your difficulties when he cannot, thats shirk. Thats a crystal clear refutation.

Attempting to usurp Allah's prerogative of deciding what is, and what is not polytheism, may itself be polytheistic!

It is dangerous to be a "monotheist" in the style of Iblees (la) who refused to bow to other than Allah even when expressly ordered do so by Allah! Look what happened to him!

Offcourse the prophet called Ali when he wanted something he also called on Umar and Abu bakr does that mean the prophet was calling on them as he called on Allah,

Prophet (pbuh) called on Abubakr and Umar for help!! Really?! When was that?

you have insulted the prophet(sw) by saying he said Ya ali in the way you say ya ali, Even the shias place the prophet above the Imams why would he use Ali as his waseela to Allah?

When Allah asks us ordinary humans for help, why would it be an insult if the Prophet (pbuh) asked the infallible Imam Ali (alahissalam) for help? We Muslims, of course, believe that according to Qura'an each and every action and utterance of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) was as per Will of Allah!

your argument makes no sense.

It won't - to you!

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RDX what is your concern how people choose to great each other ? The blessings of Allah are invoked on every muslim when we give or receive salaam if some one chooses to ask Ali to intercede on their behalf with Allah by Ya Ali Madad this is their right. Arne the house of the Prophet not given the right of intercession weven at quyamaat so why do you object and as for Arabs not using Ya Ali Mada vvery few do because they are Kuffyan

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(salam) Ya Ali Madad

right there u see how some Pakistanis (including mysef) say it... We say Salaamz 2 see whose a muslim, and say Ya Ali Madad 2 recognise a Momin or a Munafiq/Munkir (whicheva the 1 is that describes not being a follower of Ali)

Calling Imam Ali (as) for help is what the prophet (pbuh) done.. Making this the Sunnat of the Rasool... And if everybody is encouraged to follow the prophets Sunnat, why not say what he said... And also why not follow the Sunnat through the personification of the prophets Sunnat which is Imam Ali (as)

There is absolutly nothing wrong with saying Ya Ali Madad... And not like were gonna get chucked into hell for it lol... Every group/culture have their own way of greeting people within their own group, and my group called SHIAs :D greet each other with a Salaam the a Ya Ali Madad.

Hope this helps and hope u all are in good health... and if your not then say what i say... "YA ALI MADAD"... :)

(salam)

Edited by xtauq786x
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RDX thanks for stealing the thread. :)

(salam)

ÍíÏÑ, xtauq786x - after your complaint - and I - before the theft - have attempted to give our views on your query. Do go through them. Meanwhile, let's hope others also contribute on the topic.

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right there u see how some Pakistanis (including mysef) say it... We say Salaamz 2 see whose a muslim, and say Ya Ali Madad 2 recognise a Momin or a Munafiq/Munkir (whicheva the 1 is that describes not being a follower of Ali)

You see brother although your intentions might be pure the messenger of Allah (pbuh) and his family never did this so we shouldn't either because then it becomes a bidah and by you thinking that it has something to do with Imam Ali (as) and loyalty to Ahlul bayt (as) makes it wrong and real loyallty is practised by trying to emulate then instead of just repeating thier names over and over.

Also it is a practise of the Ghulat as someone posted earlier which means that you are immitating kufaar and they are the ones who started it and it has crept into our culture.

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I am a strong believer of tawassul but it is VERY wrong to *replace* Salam with Ya Ali Madad. According to a hadith of the Prophet (pbuh) we should not talk to a person who doesn't start the conversation with a Salam.

Can anyone show me one hadith, which says that we should go "Ya Ali Madad" when we greet a Muslim?

EDIT: Oh and I am Indian and I have [thankfully] yet to see some Indian go Ya Ali Madad instead of Salam. It is an exclusively Paki thing, I believe.

Edited by Whizbee
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(salam) Ya Ali Madad

right there u see how some Pakistanis (including mysef) say it... We say Salaamz 2 see whose a muslim, and say Ya Ali Madad 2 recognise a Momin or a Munafiq/Munkir (whicheva the 1 is that describes not being a follower of Ali)

Calling Imam Ali (as) for help is what the prophet (pbuh) done.. Making this the Sunnat of the Rasool... And if everybody is encouraged to follow the prophets Sunnat, why not say what he said... And also why not follow the Sunnat through the personification of the prophets Sunnat which is Imam Ali (as)

There is absolutly nothing wrong with saying Ya Ali Madad... And not like were gonna get chucked into hell for it lol... Every group/culture have their own way of greeting people within their own group, and my group called SHIAs :D greet each other with a Salaam the a Ya Ali Madad.

Hope this helps and hope u all are in good health... and if your not then say what i say... "YA ALI MADAD"... :)

(salam)

what a great explanation...u go tauq....ali ali!!

Edited by Tears of Karbala
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As a Muslim and a Shia we should always try our best for the unity of the Muslim Ummah not something against it. Actions like this is also one of the reason which is disunifying Muslims.

All Muslims should greet eachother with Salam and it shows that they are muslims, this is what our prophet and Quran has taught us.

Saying Ya Ali madad is not wrong when you want to do tawasul but it should not replace the Salam. Then it is something against the teachings of our Deen.

Wasallam.

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(salam)

Hope your all in good health. Anywayz I am alwaying seeing people type "Ya Ali Madad" on SC. I never hear people (Shiite) say that in "real life". Is this like Pakistian/ Indian Shia muslim thing? Because I am Arab and I never hear and Sheikh or Sayed or the common folks ever say that.

(salam)

Bro it's more of a pakistani thing and u need to understand it with the right context. In pakistan, as you may already know, there are areas where there is extreme hatred or should I say misunderstanding regarding shias......

Now when you live in a society which dislikes you or your beliefs, mainly because of propagandas, and a society which considers Muawiyah as a respectable sahabi, it is natural that you will fight back and show your love and your commitment to your sacred beliefs even more...... thus many among the youth (and even elders) proudly say Ya Ali Madad nowadays, not to degrade the value of the official salam, but, to express their commitment and their love of Ali a.s and show their opposition to the enemies of Ehl-ul-Bayt and their followers.

Now this is something which a person living overseas or in shia majority areas, cannot perhaps comprehend, but if one has lived in circumstances, where there is a lot of abuse and opposition to ones belief, one would realise why someone would commit to "Ya Ali Madad" as a greeting to another Momin.

Whatever the circumstances, I have actually suggested to many such friends to start with Salam and then recite "Ya Ali Madad" .....and they have agreed .....

When you understand others, its easier to help them understand you.

Fi-Amanillah

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That doesnt make sense poster "inshAllah".

If there is a problem in Pakistan with different sects, why dont you show the sunnis that the shia are the ones who hold on to the religion the strongest, rather than just take exactly the opposite stance to what ever the sunnis do in Pakistan.

If the sunnis start reflecting on the Imams guidance, are you going to reflect on muawiyas "guidance"?

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