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In the Name of God بسم الله

Funeral Prayers Of Fatima [sa]

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Abu Bakr as-Siddiq and �Uthman Zinnureyn and Abdur-Rahman bin Awf and Zubayr bin Awwam were in the mosque for night prayer, when (they heard that) Hadhrat Fatimah had passed away some time between evening and night prayers. It was the second day of the blessed month of Ramadan and the following day was Tuesday. She was twenty-four years old and the Messenger of Allah (her blessed, beloved father) had passed away only six months before. Upon Hadhrat Ali�s request, Hadhrat Abu Bakr became the imam and conducted the namaz (of janaza) for her with four takbirs.

(Fasl ul-Hitab)

From another thread I have taken this and posted here in order to not take that topic off its main purpose. I would pose the same questions here that I posted in the other thread:

Abu Bakr did not even know Fatima [sa] was buried in the darkness of the night hence how and when did he lead the Funeral prayers of Lady Fatima [sa]? More to that it was the Wasiyah of Lady Fatima [sa] that those who hurt her and oppressed her should not be part of her funeral and given the incident of Fadak why would Imam Ali [as] break her Wasiya?

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The Sahih Bukhari screams out the fact that she died unhappy with Abu Bakar, didn't speak to him for 6 months after the incident of Fadak and was infact angry with him. Was Ali (as) not aware of this fact? I hope you know that there are also many Sunnis sources that say that Bibi Fatima (sa) did not want him to be at her funeral, therefore Ali (as) burried her at night time with only a few close people.

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From another thread I have taken this and posted here in order to not take that topic off its main purpose. I would pose the same questions here that I posted in the other thread:

Abu Bakr did not even know Fatima [sa] was buried in the darkness of the night hence how and when did he lead the Funeral prayers of Lady Fatima [sa]? More to that it was the Wasiyah of Lady Fatima [sa] that those who hurt her and oppressed her should not be part of her funeral and given the incident of Fadak why would Imam Ali [as] break her Wasiya?

The burial was done in the dark for Fatimah's intense need of privacy. However she requested Abu Bakr's wife Asma (who Ali r.a. later married) to wash her body, thus Abu Bakr certainly knew of the funeral. Ali, Asma and Abbas washed her body. Regarding who led the funeral prayer, there is a difference of opinion. According to some it was Abu Bakr and others say it was Ali and yet others that it was al-Abbas. (Al-Bidayah wa l-Nihayah)

The closeness of Abu Bakr and Umar with the Prophetic household is well known. It is well authenticated Abu Bakr and Umar helped in burying the mother of Ali r.a. (Fatimah bint Asad) who helped raise the Prophet s.a.w. Gibril Haddad wrote: It is known that `Umar had a particular veneration for the Prophetic Household (Ahl al-Bayt) as illustrated by the following reports:

(a) Ibn Sa`d narrated from al-Sha`bi and al-Hasan that al- `Abbas had some need of `Umar one day and said to him: "Commander of the Believers, suppose the uncle of Musa, upon him peace, came to you as a Muslim, how would you treat him?" He replied, "I swear by Allah that I would treat him well!" Al-`Abbas said, "Well, I am the uncle of Muhammad the Prophet - upon him and his House blessings and peace!" `Umar said, "Abu al-Fadl, and what do you suppose? By Allah, your father [`Abd al-Muttalib] is certainly dearer to me than my own father!" He said, "By Allah?" `Umar said, "By Allah, yes! Because I know that he [`Abd al-Muttalib] is dearer to the Messenger of Allah than my own father, therefore I prefer the love of the Messenger of Allah to my love."

(B) A man disparaged `Ali ibn Abi Talib in the presence of `Umar whereupon the latter said: "Do you know the dweller of this grave? He is Muhammad ibn `Abd Allah ibn `Abd al-Muttalib. And `Ali is the son of Abu Talib ibn `Abd al-Muttalib. Therefore, do not mention `Ali except in a good way for if you dislike him you will harm this one in his grave." Narrated by Ahmad with a good chain in Fada'il al-Sahaba (2:641 #1089).

© After `Umar saw al-Husayn ibn `Ali ibn Abi Talib waiting at his door he said to him: "You are more deserving of permission to enter than [my son] `Abd Allah ibn `Umar! You see the goodness that was placed on our head; [therefore] first Allah; then you [the Prophetic Household]!" and he placed his hand on his head as he spoke. Narrated by Ibn Sa`d, Ibn Rahuyah, and al-Khatib.

(d) Jabir said he heard `Umar ibn al-Khattab say on the pulpit after he married Umm Kulthum, the daughter of `Ali and Fatima - Allah be well-pleased with them:

"Do not disparage me [for marrying a young girl], for I heard the Prophet say, upon him blessings and peace: 'On the Judgment Day every means will be cut off and every lineage severed except my lineage.'"

Narrated by al-Tabarani. Al-Haythami said its narrators are those of al-Bukhari and Muslim.

`Umar desired to place himself in the Prophet's lineage through this marriage due to the precedence of Ahl al-Bayt in the Prophet's intercession, upon him and them peace.

http://www.livingislam.org/o/twua_e.html

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(d) Jabir said he heard `Umar ibn al-Khattab say on the pulpit after he married Umm Kulthum, the daughter of `Ali and Fatima - Allah be well-pleased with them:

"Do not disparage me [for marrying a young girl], for I heard the Prophet say, upon him blessings and peace: 'On the Judgment Day every means will be cut off and every lineage severed except my lineage.'"

Narrated by al-Tabarani. Al-Haythami said its narrators are those of al-Bukhari and Muslim.

`Umar desired to place himself in the Prophet's lineage through this marriage due to the precedence of Ahl al-Bayt in the Prophet's intercession, upon him and them peace.

http://www.livingislam.org/o/twua_e.html

Can you please tell me why did Prophet refuse Umar's proposal for prophets own daughter Fatima??

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The Sahih Bukhari screams out the fact that she died unhappy with Abu Bakar, didn't speak to him for 6 months after the incident of Fadak and was infact angry with him. Was Ali (as) not aware of this fact? /quote]

Selective reading of a hadith never helps. She was initially angry as she disagreed with Abu Bakr's interpretation of the Prophet's words "We leave no heir". However al-Bayhaqi reports with a sahih chain according to ibn Hajar and ibn Kathir that al-Sha'bi said:

“When Fatima became ill, Abu Bakr came to her and asked for permission to enter. So Ali said, ‘O Fatima, this is Abu Bakr asking for permission to enter.’ She answerd, ‘Do you want me to give him permission?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ So she allowed him (to enter), and he came in seeking her pleasure, so he told her: ‘By Allah, I only left my home and property and my family seeking the pleasure of Allah and His Messenger and you, O Ahlel Bayt.’ So he talked to her until she was pleased with him.”

Thus they settled their disagreement before her death. As for "did not speak with him", in the narration of Ma'mar it says "did not speak with him in regards to that wealth" and this was the interpretation favoured by al-Tirmidhi and his teachers although others disagreed (Fath al-Bari). However the above narration removes any ambiguity as to the position of Fatimah on Abu Bakr before her death. Abu Bakr said to her while he wept he loves the relations of the Prophet more than his own family.

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why would Umar need to marry from the family of Ali (as), as sunnis keep quoting about the alleged marriage with Imam's (as) daughter, Umm Kulthum (ra), when Umar was already father in law of the prophet (pbuh) due to Prophet (pbuh) marrying Hafsa bint umar?

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Selective reading of a hadith never helps. She was initially angry as she disagreed with Abu Bakr's interpretation of the Prophet's words "We leave no heir". However al-Bayhaqi reports with a sahih chain according to ibn Hajar and ibn Kathir that al-Sha'bi said:

“When Fatima became ill, Abu Bakr came to her and asked for permission to enter. So Ali said, ‘O Fatima, this is Abu Bakr asking for permission to enter.’ She answerd, ‘Do you want me to give him permission?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ So she allowed him (to enter), and he came in seeking her pleasure, so he told her: ‘By Allah, I only left my home and property and my family seeking the pleasure of Allah and His Messenger and you, O Ahlel Bayt.’ So he talked to her until she was pleased with him.”

Thus they settled their disagreement before her death. As for "did not speak with him", in the narration of Ma'mar it says "did not speak with him in regards to that wealth" and this was the interpretation favoured by al-Tirmidhi and his teachers although others disagreed (Fath al-Bari). However the above narration removes any ambiguity as to the position of Fatimah on Abu Bakr before her death. Abu Bakr said to her while he wept he loves the relations of the Prophet more than his own family.

I think you will find that many accounts disagree with what you have stated above. If really they were forgiven then why did they not know that Fatima [sa] was dead and buried in the night? Why did they come next morning to Imam Ali [as] asking about Fatima [sa]?

Secondly refer to this in history where she states to Abu Bakr and Umar: "I ask you by God, did you hear the Prophet [pbuh] say: 'Fatima is a piece of my flesh and I am from her. Whoever troubles her has troubled me. And whoever troubles me has troubled Allah. Whoever troubled her after my death is like the one who troubled her during my lifetime. And whoever troubled her during my life is like the one who troubled her after my death"

Both replied [Abu Bakr and Umar]: Yes we have heard this

She states: "Praise to be Allah. . .O Allah I make You a witness and the angels a witness and say that you both have hurt me and have not pleased me. When I meet the Prophet [pbuh] I shall complain to him about you both"

Hearing this Abu Bakr began crying and complained:"I wish my mother had not given birth to me"

Umar replied:"I am surprised at how the people made you the Caliph! You have lost your senses due to your old age. You cry on account of the displeasure of women and are pleased with their pleasure"

References:

Elalush Sharaae page 186-187

Behaar vol 43 page 202-203

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The burial was done in the dark for Fatimah's intense need of privacy. However she requested Abu Bakr's wife Asma (who Ali r.a. later married) to wash her body, thus Abu Bakr certainly knew of the funeral. Ali, Asma and Abbas washed her body. Regarding who led the funeral prayer, there is a difference of opinion. According to some it was Abu Bakr and others say it was Ali and yet others that it was al-Abbas. (Al-Bidayah wa l-Nihayah)

That above is absurd to say the least. The body of Fatima [sa] was washed by Imam Ali [as], as it was during that period he discovered what Fatima [sa] had suffered when the door was kicked upon her by Umar.

And as I said her wasiya was clear that those who harmed her and oppressed her should not participate in her funeral then would Imam Ali [as] go against the Wasiya of his beloved wife? I think not.

The closeness of Abu Bakr and Umar with the Prophetic household is well known. It is well authenticated Abu Bakr and Umar helped in burying the mother of Ali r.a. (Fatimah bint Asad) who helped raise the Prophet s.a.w. Gibril Haddad wrote: It is known that `Umar had a particular veneration for the Prophetic Household (Ahl al-Bayt) as illustrated by the following reports:

(a) Ibn Sa`d narrated from al-Sha`bi and al-Hasan that al- `Abbas had some need of `Umar one day and said to him: "Commander of the Believers, suppose the uncle of Musa, upon him peace, came to you as a Muslim, how would you treat him?" He replied, "I swear by Allah that I would treat him well!" Al-`Abbas said, "Well, I am the uncle of Muhammad the Prophet - upon him and his House blessings and peace!" `Umar said, "Abu al-Fadl, and what do you suppose? By Allah, your father [`Abd al-Muttalib] is certainly dearer to me than my own father!" He said, "By Allah?" `Umar said, "By Allah, yes! Because I know that he [`Abd al-Muttalib] is dearer to the Messenger of Allah than my own father, therefore I prefer the love of the Messenger of Allah to my love."

(B) A man disparaged `Ali ibn Abi Talib in the presence of `Umar whereupon the latter said: "Do you know the dweller of this grave? He is Muhammad ibn `Abd Allah ibn `Abd al-Muttalib. And `Ali is the son of Abu Talib ibn `Abd al-Muttalib. Therefore, do not mention `Ali except in a good way for if you dislike him you will harm this one in his grave." Narrated by Ahmad with a good chain in Fada'il al-Sahaba (2:641 #1089).

© After `Umar saw al-Husayn ibn `Ali ibn Abi Talib waiting at his door he said to him: "You are more deserving of permission to enter than [my son] `Abd Allah ibn `Umar! You see the goodness that was placed on our head; [therefore] first Allah; then you [the Prophetic Household]!" and he placed his hand on his head as he spoke. Narrated by Ibn Sa`d, Ibn Rahuyah, and al-Khatib.

(d) Jabir said he heard `Umar ibn al-Khattab say on the pulpit after he married Umm Kulthum, the daughter of `Ali and Fatima - Allah be well-pleased with them:

"Do not disparage me [for marrying a young girl], for I heard the Prophet say, upon him blessings and peace: 'On the Judgment Day every means will be cut off and every lineage severed except my lineage.'"

Narrated by al-Tabarani. Al-Haythami said its narrators are those of al-Bukhari and Muslim.

`Umar desired to place himself in the Prophet's lineage through this marriage due to the precedence of Ahl al-Bayt in the Prophet's intercession, upon him and them peace.

http://www.livingislam.org/o/twua_e.html

Wow so was it this closeness that lead Umar to attack the house of Fatima [sa] with the likes of Ma'loon Khalid bin Waleed and others?

As for the marriage of Umme Kultum to Umar that is something which has been debated many times and there is no evidence to suggest that it is true. One question would arise is why would Imam Ali [as] give his daughter to a person who attacked their house and kicked the door on Fatima [sa] which also happens to be the mother of Umme Kultum?

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why would Umar need to marry from the family of Ali (as), as sunnis keep quoting about the alleged marriage with Imam's (as) daughter, Umm Kulthum (ra), when Umar was already father in law of the prophet (pbuh) due to Prophet (pbuh) marrying Hafsa bint umar?

He did not need to marry in the family of Ali. He wished to so as to be from the lineage of the Prophet s.a.w. Umm Kulthum bore `Umar Zayd al-Akbar, known as Ibn al-Khalifatayn (‘Son of the Two Caliphs’ i.e. `Umar and `Ali) who became renowned for his great beauty, and a daughter, Ruqayya. Zayd al-Akbar died a young man, childless.

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not to mention, if Abu Bakr had led the funeral prayers, why did Aisha narrate the hadith about Bibi fatima (as) dying angry with Abu Bakr? serious problems with the story of Abu Bakr's alleged involvement with her funeral/burial... except as the cause of it :Hijabi:

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not to mention, if Abu Bakr had led the funeral prayers, why did Aisha narrate the hadith about Bibi fatima (as) dying angry with Abu Bakr? serious problems with the story of Abu Bakr's alleged involvement with her funeral/burial... except as the cause of it :Hijabi:

I have explained in an earlier post she did not die being angry with Abu Bakr r.a. As narrated in a sahih narration in Bayhaqi Abu Bakr visited her during her illness and "he sought her pleasure until she was pleased with him".

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then why was Abu Bakr's own daughter unaware of this? that hadith IS rated as sahih, right? how can BOTh be true? do you not think that this is something Abu Bakr would've made at least some people aware of, like HIS DAUGHTER???

Edited by Aliya
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As narrated in a sahih narration in Bayhaqi Abu Bakr visited her during her illness and "he sought her pleasure until she was pleased with him".

talk about picking and choosing hadith.

last time i checked bukhari was more sahih that bayhaqi and aisha was more trustworthy.

also, the bayhaqi narraiton is narrated by amir al-shabi who was a very staunch abubakr loyalist. He clearly invented the narration to make his leader look better.

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my dear bro suroof

in post 3 you do not even know what you have written.

kindly read it again and again and think of bibi fatima(as) being wanted to be buried at night because of privacy, and yet you have copied what you have copied.

bro the shia might be very wrong in faith but the accounts are quite contrary to what you have written, read all three of sis aliya's posts.

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btw does anyone know the credible narrations which say Fatima (as) specifcally did not want Abu Bakr to attend/lead her burial.

The Sunni propagandists say that the reason is because of her chastity, but didn't Abu Hurayra (non-mahram) lead Aisha's funeral prayers - so obviously, having your funeral prayer led by a man is not a sign of low chastity. In fact in Bukhari, it says Abu Talha Ansari buried the Prophet's other daughter.

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then why was Abu Bakr's own daughter unaware of this? that hadith IS rated as sahih, right? how can BOTh be true? do you not think that this is something Abu Bakr would've made at least some people aware of, like HIS DAUGHTER???

Aishah was not unaware of this. Aishah said "she did not speak with him until she died"; however other narrations of the same statement give the words "she did not speak with him regarding that wealth unil she died". And the narration in al-Bayhaqi clarifies he did speak with her and her anger did not remain. And as a rule, "the affirmative take precedence over the negative"; if Aishah or anyone failed to mention an event and somebody else mentioned it, then the latter will take precedence as it is possible the former overlooked it.

The narration of Aishah r.a. does not say Fatimah remained angry till she died but that she did not speak concerning the wealth till she died.

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Aishah was not unaware of this. Aishah said "she did not speak with him until she died"; however other narrations of the same statement give the words "she did not speak with him regarding that wealth unil she died". And the narration in al-Bayhaqi clarifies he did speak with her and her anger did not remain. And as a rule, "the affirmative take precedence over the negative"; if Aishah or anyone failed to mention an event and somebody else mentioned it, then the latter will take precedence as it is possible the former overlooked it.

The narration of Aishah r.a. does not say Fatimah remained angry till she died but that she did not speak concerning the wealth till she died.

bro this is bringing bukhari into doubt

she forgets

abu huraira adds

when someone makes an excuse for someone at least make it good and foolproof.

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This is the actual hadith from Bukhari:

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 546:

Narrated 'Aisha:

Fatima the daughter of the Prophet sent someone to Abu Bakr (when he was a caliph), asking for her inheritance of what Allah's Apostle had left of the property bestowed on him by Allah from the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) in Medina, and Fadak, and what remained of the Khumus of the Khaibar booty. On that, Abu Bakr said, "Allah's Apostle said, "Our property is not inherited. Whatever we leave, is Sadaqa, but the family of (the Prophet) Muhammad can eat of this property.' By Allah, I will not make any change in the state of the Sadaqa of Allah's Apostle and will leave it as it was during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle, and will dispose of it as Allah's Apostle used to do." So Abu Bakr refused to give anything of that to Fatima. So she became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband 'Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself. When Fatima was alive, the people used to respect 'Ali much, but after her death, 'Ali noticed a change in the people's attitude towards him. So Ali sought reconciliation with Abu Bakr and gave him an oath of allegiance. 'Ali had not given the oath of allegiance during those months (i.e. the period between the Prophet's death and Fatima's death). 'Ali sent someone to Abu Bakr saying, "Come to us, but let nobody come with you," as he disliked that 'Umar should come, 'Umar said (to Abu Bakr), "No, by Allah, you shall not enter upon them alone " Abu Bakr said, "What do you think they will do to me? By Allah, I will go to them' So Abu Bakr entered upon them, and then 'Ali uttered Tashah-hud and said (to Abu Bakr), "We know well your superiority and what Allah has given you, and we are not jealous of the good what Allah has bestowed upon you, but you did not consult us in the question of the rule and we thought that we have got a right in it because of our near relationship to Allah's Apostle ."

Thereupon Abu Bakr's eyes flowed with tears. And when Abu Bakr spoke, he said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is to keep good relations with the relatives of Allah's Apostle is dearer to me than to keep good relations with my own relatives. But as for the trouble which arose between me and you about his property, I will do my best to spend it according to what is good, and will not leave any rule or regulation which I saw Allah's Apostle following, in disposing of it, but I will follow." On that 'Ali said to Abu Bakr, "I promise to give you the oath of allegiance in this after noon." So when Abu Bakr had offered the Zuhr prayer, he ascended the pulpit and uttered the Tashah-hud and then mentioned the story of 'Ali and his failure to give the oath of allegiance, and excused him, accepting what excuses he had offered; Then 'Ali (got up) and praying (to Allah) for forgiveness, he uttered Tashah-hud, praised Abu Bakr's right, and said, that he had not done what he had done because of jealousy of Abu Bakr or as a protest of that Allah had favored him with. 'Ali added, "But we used to consider that we too had some right in this affair (of rulership) and that he (i.e. Abu Bakr) did not consult us in this matter, and therefore caused us to feel sorry." On that all the Muslims became happy and said, "You have done the right thing." The Muslims then became friendly with 'Ali as he returned to what the people had done (i.e. giving the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr).

Source

Aisha has narrated everything which took place with Fatima [sa] in regards to Fadak. So how does your loophole apply here? And read the bold part that clearly states that she remained angry with him. She even testifies that the funeral was done without any information given to Abu Bakr and during night time. So where is the information that Abu Bakr lead her funeral prayers arise from?

Another question here as Sis Aliya asked if Abu Bakr had been forgiven then why would he fail to inform Aisha, his daughter of such an happening, given the magnitude of the incident?

Edited by A follower
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Suroof, if you're going to claim something, you should make it something not so easily refuted:

(I'm excerpting the part of the hadith that does exactly what you said it doesn't)

Sahih Bukhari

Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325:

Narrated 'Aisha:

Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle.

and in another narration also in sahih bukhari in which the above is reaffirmed, she states that Bibi Fatima (as) was buried at night, by Imam Ali (as) and that Abu Bakr was NOT NOTIFIED

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 546:

....So she became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband 'Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself

this is sahih bukhari, daughter of Abu Bakr saying it. Saying she was ANGRY with Abu Bakr UNTIL SHE DIED, that she stopped speaking to Abu Bakr UNTIL SHE DIED... how are less sahih narrations overruling what is so clearly said in these hadith. It cracks me up when we see non-shias claiming hadith do not say what they say very plainly. it's not like we're putting extra words there, or using obsure definitions of words to change the meaning, we're simply reading the hadith and saying what it says in it's own words, plain and simple.

is she suddenly an unreliable source to you guys? you who take her word for things no one else narrates, things that contradict narrations of others.... do you take her word for this?

on a side note, the word 'task' does not make sense, it seems the translator made a mistake and types task instead of talk, which would be easy to do as the same finger, only on the other hand, would be for 's' as for 'l'. can anyone confirm perhaps from the original Arabic the correct translation for that word?

Edited by Aliya
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(I'm excerpting the part of the hadith that does exactly what you said it doesn't)

Sahih Bukhari

Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325:

Narrated 'Aisha:

Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle.

The various narrations of Bukhari differ. Imam Bukhari wrote the work but it is the copies of the works that we possess today and there are variation in wordings e.g. between the narration of al-Kushmayhani and Ma'mar. Therefore it is a near impossiblity to translate accurately the work. The above hadith has the words "lam takallamhu hatta matat/tuwuffiyat" (she spoke not with him until she died) and another version adds "fi dhalika l-mal" i.e. she did not speak with him concerning the wealth; ibn Hajar highlights these variants in Fath al-Bari. Anyhow the hadith does not say she remained angry with him till she died but (according to the variants) either she did not speak to him or she departed from him.

In addition taking into consideration the narration in al-Bayhaqi mentioned above it should remove all doubt concerning the matter.

As a side note on the variations of Bukhari, see: http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/bari.htm

"However the most celebrated is without question the magnificent Fath al-Bari (‘Victory of the Creator’) by Imam Ibn Hajar al-‘Asqalani, a work which was the crown both of its genre and of the Imam’s academic career. It is appreciated by the ulema for the doctrinal soundness of its author, for its complete coverage of Bukhari’s material, its mastery of the relevant Arabic sciences, the wisdom it shows in drawing lessons (fawa’id) from the hadiths it expounds, and its skill in resolving complex disputes over variant readings. For Bukhari’s text has not come down to us in a single uniform version, but exists in several ‘narrations’ (riwayat), of which the version handed down by al-Kushmayhani (d.389) on the authority of Bukhari’s pupil al-Firabri is the one most frequently accepted by the ulema. This is, for example, why the new and definitive edition of the Sahih, through the authorised narration of the best-known hadith scholar of recent times, Shaykh al-Hadith ‘Abdallah ibn al-Siddiq al-Ghimari, uses the Firabri version (for this text see www.thesaurus-islamicus.li). Ibn Hajar frequently uses the Kushmayhani variant as his standard text, but gives his reasons, often in complex detail, for preferring other readings where these seem to have particular merit. In doing this he makes it clear that he is authorised, through the ijaza-system, for all the riwayat he cites."

and in another narration also in sahih bukhari in which the above is reaffirmed, she states that Bibi Fatima was buried at night, by Imam Ali and that Abu Bakr was NOT NOTIFIED

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 546:

....So she became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not task to him till she died. She remained alive for six months after the death of the Prophet. When she died, her husband 'Ali, buried her at night without informing Abu Bakr and he said the funeral prayer by himself

The translation is inaccurate (see: http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display...=3913&doc=0 ). The wording is "lam yudhin biha Aba Bakr" - the dafn (putting on the shroud and burial) was not permitted to Abu Bakr, not that he was not informed of the funeral or death. The hadith also has no indication as to whether Abu Bakr prayed the funeral prayer or not, or whether he led it or not. It says about Ali simply "salla alayha" (he prayed over her); this could mean he led the prayer or he prayed behind the one who led the prayer. The reports on the one who led the prayer differ; some say it was Abbas, others Ali himself and others Abu Bakr.

this is sahih bukhari, daughter of Abu Bakr saying it

And if you read a bit further into it, it gives Ali's testimony to Abu Bakr "we know of your superiority and what Allah has given you" and Abu Bakr wept and said the family of the Prophet is more beloved to him than his own family.

Saying she was ANGRY with Abu Bakr UNTIL SHE DIED, that she stopped speaking to Abu Bakr UNTIL SHE DIED

It does not say she was angry with Abu Bakr till she died but that she did not speak with him; and the variant narrations show how this does not conflict with Abu Bakr's later conversation with her mentioned in the Sunan of al-Bayhaqi.

it's not like we're putting extra words there, or using obsure definitions of words to change the meaning, we're simply reading the hadith and saying what it says in it's own words, plain and simple

That's the thing: hadith is not a simple science. Many people narrate the same thing from the same person but with variant wordings. Those wordings have all to be considered before making a decision of what is meant. That is why commentaries like Fath al-Bari are necessary to understand such a complex tradition as the Sahih al-Bukhari which is not the book that we read in the translated version of Muhsin Khan but the centuries of narration from one person to another. Ibn Hajar himself has a chain back to Bukhari for the narrations of the book and he looked into the different manuscripts and explained how the hadith can have slightly different meanings.

It's not a simple matter of reading a translation, but not only must the variations in the hadith itself be consdiered before a conclusion can be made but also all the ahadith surrounding that matter. This is why commentators also mention the other ahadith surrounding the issue, like ibn Hajar mentioning the narration of Bayhaqi in Fath al-Bari. And this goes to show translations can never supplement the real thing, and as a clear indication:

on a side note, the word 'task' does not make sense, it seems the translator made a mistake and types task instead of talk

Yes it should be "talk" not "task".

Edited by Suroof
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oh, sorry, I guess they were getting for tea, having dinner, etc. and just avoiding that little Fadak issue :rolleyes:

btw, attitude's definition (as used in the first hadith) which describes her as angry

1. manner, disposition, feeling, position, etc., with regard to a person or thing; tendency or orientation, esp. of the mind:

a. A state of mind or a feeling; disposition: had a positive attitude about work.

b. An arrogant or hostile state of mind or disposition.

1. a complex mental state involving beliefs and feelings and values and dispositions to act in certain ways;

2. a mental position with regard to a fact or state b : a feeling or emotion toward a fact or state

ALL of these (which is the only definitions that fit in this context) have to do with feelings or state of mind, and NOT simply action (such as not talking to someone)

btw, contradictory hadith in your "sahih" collections do not prove to shias your beliefs (because you have to piece together from this book and that book, and this other book, to substantiate your version, and the versions differ from group to group within the sect(s)), rather the issue comes to you to resolve them, and you contort, distort, and sidestep plain hadith in order to attempt a reconciliation of the discrepancies in these so called "sahih" hadith (that each collector had their own criteria, so what may be sahih to Muslim or Dawud is not necessarily sahih to Bukhari, is interesting, because sunnis have accepted them ALL as sahih) that somehow makes them (discrepancies) all either irrelevant or non-existant, rather than just adopting one line of "this is what happened, these contradicting hadith are erroneous" which would be simpler and most probably more accurate than theoretical assumptions, piecemeal stories, etc. that you have now.

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Bring forth a couple of shia hadith in which their imams (ra) compare themselves to the Prophet (saw) in rank and in knowledge and you'll see them stuttering with multiple interpretations..

"Ohhh it didn't mean that.. What the heck is wrong with you!!??".

Anyways.. do not waste your time explaining the same stuff that has been explained over and over bro.

It'll most likely fall on deaf ears. Just go through earlier threads on this exact same topic and it begins and ends exactly the same.

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Bring forth a couple of shia hadith in which their imams (ra) compare themselves to the Prophet (saw) in rank and in knowledge and you'll see them stuttering with multiple interpretations..

"Ohhh it didn't mean that.. What the heck is wrong with you!!??".

There are Hadiths which hold the Imams [as] on the same level of knowledge as that of the Prophet [pbuh]. Even the Quranic tafseers have that so what are you trying to suggest exactly?

Maybe you should keep to the topic instead of spewing useless rhetoric all the time and digressing!

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And if you read a bit further into it, it gives Ali's testimony to Abu Bakr "we know of your superiority and what Allah has given you" and Abu Bakr wept and said the family of the Prophet is more beloved to him than his own family.

Allah(swt) gave us aql for a reason and not for deep storage.

you are superior to me but i am your mawla. when will you guys make up something good.

promise you it will never be foolproof, for only the truth is foolproof.

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btw, attitude's definition (as used in the first hadith) which describes her as angry

1. manner, disposition, feeling, position, etc., with regard to a person or thing; tendency or orientation, esp. of the mind:

a. A state of mind or a feeling; disposition: had a positive attitude about work.

b. An arrogant or hostile state of mind or disposition.

1. a complex mental state involving beliefs and feelings and values and dispositions to act in certain ways;

2. a mental position with regard to a fact or state b : a feeling or emotion toward a fact or state

ALL of these (which is the only definitions that fit in this context) have to do with feelings or state of mind, and NOT simply action (such as not talking to someone)

What is the point in finding the definiton of an Enlgish word used in the translation? The Arabic for the first narration is here: http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display...=2862&doc=0

The wording for the part you are referring to is: "faghadabat Fatimah fahajarathu fa lam takun mahajaratahu hatta matat" (Fatimah departed from him and this departure remained till her death); here it is explicit it is not the anger that continued. Under the commentary of this, ibn Hajar say: in the narration of Ma'mar it is "Fatimah departed him and did not speak to him till she died" and... in another version of Ma'mar "she did not speak with him regarding that wealth till she died".

In order to understand this better ibn Hajar brings up the narration of Bayhaqi

btw, contradictory hadith in your "sahih" collections do not prove to shias your beliefs (because you have to piece together from this book and that book, and this other book, to substantiate your version, and the versions differ from group to group within the sect(s)), rather the issue comes to you to resolve them, and you contort, distort, and sidestep plain hadith in order to attempt a reconciliation of the discrepancies in these so called "sahih" hadith

Even the same hadith has different wordings and may appear "contradictory" and therefore it is the job of the highly trained muhaddith to find the meaning from the various narrations. The difference between sunnis and shia in this regard is the shia selectively impose one or two narrations which appear to favour their view; however Sunnis consider all narrations on an issue, their individual relative grading, and eventually make a suitable judgement. The reason is the shia have a bias that needs to be substansiated - they assimilate those narrations only which support their beliefs; Sunnis on the other hand formulate their beliefs based on what the Quran and Sunnah say.

that each collector had their own criteria, so what may be sahih to Muslim or Dawud is not necessarily sahih to Bukhari, is interesting, because sunnis have accepted them ALL as sahih

No they haven't. Regarding the Sahihs of Bukhari and Muslim, many have considered all the ahadith in them sahih; however many ahadith in them are not without their disagreements. Regarding Abu Dawud it is unanimous it contains weak and strong ahadith. In fact Abu Dawud himself after narrating a hadith would say "this is weak", as it is a Sunan not a collection of Sahih.

As for differing criteria that is true. Bukhari had the stringest of criteria and Imam Muslim said Bukhari's criteria are overly excessive [for instance Bukhari said two consequitive narrators must have been noted to have met each other whereas Imam Muslim said no, they have only to have been in the same time]. Because there are different gradings to ahadith we look to later scholars like ibn Hajar and ibn Kathir who had a hollistic view and could therefore give a correct judgement as to whether a hadith is reliable or not.

rather than just adopting one line of "this is what happened, these contradicting hadith are erroneous" which would be simpler and most probably more accurate than theoretical assumptions

In many cases this is what is done. But the rule is when they are equally reliable AND reconcilable then reconciliation should be made. In the case of the narration of Aishah and al-Sha'bi in Bayhaqi, they are reconcilable, therefore they are reconciled. The science of hadith is a complex science, one which developed over hundreds of years of traditional narration from teacher to student, and the shii ignorance on this discipline is probably one of the reasons why they do not appreciate the vastness of its theory and the complexity of putting it into practice.

Edited by Suroof
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No they haven't. Regarding the Sahihs of Bukhari and Muslim, many have considered all the ahadith in them sahih; however many ahadith in them are not without their disagreements. Regarding Abu Dawud it is unanimous it contains weak and strong ahadith. In fact Abu Dawud himself after narrating a hadith would say "this is weak", as it is a Sunan not a collection of Sahih.

In many cases this is what is done. But the rule is when they are equally reliable AND reconcilable then reconciliation should be made. In the case of the narration of Aishah and al-Sha'bi in Bayhaqi, they are reconcilable, therefore they are reconciled. The science of hadith is a complex science, one which developed over hundreds of years of traditional narration from teacher to student, and the shii ignorance on this discipline is probably one of the reasons why they do not appreciate the vastness of its theory and the complexity of putting it into practice.

abu dawud perhaps understood best as the recorder of traditions.

if the shias do not understand the science of hadith, how come none of their books of narration are sahihs'. for the shias the only sahih is the holy quran.

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not to mention, if Abu Bakr had led the funeral prayers, why did Aisha narrate the hadith about Bibi fatima (as) dying angry with Abu Bakr? serious problems with the story of Abu Bakr's alleged involvement with her funeral/burial... except as the cause of it :Hijabi:

u shud also tell the sunnis that the prophet had only 1 daughter bibi fatmi a.s when prophet mohammed brought everyone under the blanket he did not bring all of the other so called daughters prophet always did justice if he would not bring all his other so called daughters wouldnt that be unjust yes that concludes to the fact that prophet mohammed P.B.U.H had only one daugher

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Fatima (A) then added:

"I ask you not to let anyone who did injustice to me to witness my funeral, for they certainly are enemies of mine, and the enemy of Allah's Messenger. Also don't give them the chance to pray over me, nor to any of their followers. Burry me at night when eyes are rested and sight is put to sleep."

Commenting on Imam Ali's speech after Fatima's burial, the commentator on Nahjul Balagha-English version-published by Ansariyan Publication, p.347 - wrote:

"The treatment meted out to the daughter of the Prophet after his death has been extremely painful and sad. Although Sayyedah Fatima (A) did not live in this world more than a few months after the death of the Prophet (S), yet even this short period has a long tale of grief and woe (about her). In this connection, the first scene that strikes the eyes in that the arrangements for the funeral rites of the Prophet had not yet been made when the contest for power started in the Saqifa of Bani Sa'eda. Naturally, their leaving the body of the Prophet (without burial), must have injured Hadhrat Fatima's grief-stricken heart to see that those who claimed love and attachment (to the Prophet) during his life, became so engrossed in their machinations for power that instead of consoling his only daughter, they did not even know when the Prophet (S) was given funeral bath and when he was buried; and the way they condoled her, was that crowded at her house with material to set fire to it and tried to secure allegiance by force with all the display of oppression, compulsion and violence. All these excesses were with a view to so obliterate the prestigious position of this house that it might not remain its lost prestige on any occasion. With this aim in view, in order to crush her economic position, her claim for (the estate of) Fadak was turned down by dubbing it as false, the effect of which was that Hadhrat Fatima (A) made the dying will that none of them should attend her funeral."

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u shud also tell the sunnis that the prophet had only 1 daughter bibi fatmi a.s when prophet mohammed brought everyone under the blanket he did not bring all of the other so called daughters prophet always did justice if he would not bring all his other so called daughters wouldnt that be unjust yes that concludes to the fact that prophet mohammed P.B.U.H had only one daugher

it would be haram for Imam Ali and the prophet's other daughters to be under the cloak at the same time

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^ yeah, that was the reason :dry: but since this event happened more than once (at least in front of Aisha and Umm Salama (ra)), wasn't there opportunity for them to be included, maybe without the Imams (as) and putting these women under the cloak or something, so that if these other women were meant to be included (wives too) they would've been and there wouldn't be the appearance (for those that believe the three daughters theory) of favoritism and exclusion (astaghfirullah) from Prophet (pbuh) to these other women? It is CLEAR to those who are not willfully blind by their own bias, that the people who were meant to be included were included, and those that weren't, weren't, and it is the will of Allah (SWT) who these people were and were not.

Edited by Aliya
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