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In the Name of God بسم الله

Atheist Cosmology

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(bismillah)

Thanks for the post Freedom, i was thinking of posting a topic about islamic cosmology after my exams insh.

Just to say that the major difference between the Atheist cosmology and Islamic cosmology is that Islamic cosmology looks at the cosmos as the self disclosure of God. It is living and every movement of it has significence. It is in fact the only way that God is know to his creatures as his essence is beyond human understanding.

Therefore science plays a central role in Islam as it is searching for knowledge of God, which is the best action in Islam.

On the other hand Atheist cosmology leads to the conclusion that there is no purpose to existence as everything was just there and for no particular reason.

The search for science is then just a means to dominate the cosmos. It is this distructive outlook that has lead to the current rape of the earth as well as a fall in human values (especially from a the perspective of a person who beleives in God)

On the other hand, you may have heard the hadith attributed to the Prophet (SAW) or Imam Ali (as) that "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord"

Hence there is an intemate link between the cosmos and the human. In fact the human is referred to as the microcosm and the cosmos the macrocosm. Things found in the macrocosm through investigative science can be extrapolated and realated to the human and also to God. This integrated system leads to respect for the cosmos and each human, as all humans have this intemate link, man or woman, white or black, child or elder.

A person that understands these things finds it hard to think of atheism as a real alternative as it is in essence the absence of any explaination rather than an integrated understanding of the cosmos and also why Atheist cosmology is, as 09 said...cold.

Insh hope that helps:)

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(bismillah)

Thanks for the post Freedom, i was thinking of posting a topic about islamic cosmology after my exams insh.

Just to say that the major difference between the Atheist cosmology and Islamic cosmology is that Islamic cosmology looks at the cosmos as the self disclosure of God. It is living and every movement of it has significence. It is in fact the only way that God is know to his creatures as his essence is beyond human understanding.

Therefore science plays a central role in Islam as it is searching for knowledge of God, which is the best action in Islam.

On the other hand Atheist cosmology leads to the conclusion that there is no purpose to existence as everything was just there and for no particular reason.

The search for science is then just a means to dominate the cosmos. It is this distructive outlook that has lead to the current rape of the earth as well as a fall in human values (especially from a the perspective of a person who beleives in God)

On the other hand, you may have heard the hadith attributed to the Prophet (SAW) or Imam Ali (as) that "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord"

Hence there is an intemate link between the cosmos and the human. In fact the human is referred to as the microcosm and the cosmos the macrocosm. Things found in the macrocosm through investigative science can be extrapolated and realated to the human and also to God. This integrated system leads to respect for the cosmos and each human, as all humans have this intemate link, man or woman, white or black, child or elder.

A person that understands these things finds it hard to think of atheism as a real alternative as it is in essence the absence of any explaination rather than an integrated understanding of the cosmos and also why Atheist cosmology is, as 09 said...cold.

Insh hope that helps:)

You don't seem to like atheism because you don't think it gives purpose.

So what is your god-given purpose?

What is the divine purpose that you have that I haven't found?

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You don't seem to like atheism because you don't think it gives purpose.

So what is your god-given purpose?

What is the divine purpose that you have that I haven't found?

If you don't mind me interrupting; I think he was referring to the purposiveness behind a God-produced universe, in general. While, on this same token, an atheist can never have a "purpose" to the whole. I agree with Mackie, in that, an atheist may have "purposes" to live, which you must contrive for yourself, but when it comes down to the foremost question - you do not exist for a purpose...that which is all around you does not exist for a purpose either; it is naught but a heap of matter impelling, impacting, importing ever doing something, never not doing nothing.

Purpose, to my mind, is a notion foreign to the atheological conception of the universe. This is why almost every atheistic existentialist, I know of, has posited as the crowning question of being; not whether a God of sorts exists, but rather, whether or not to commit suicide. . .As Rousseau wrote, "Never, they say, can truth be hurtful to men. I think so too; and this, in my opinion, is a strong proof that what they teach(atheism) is not the truth." Meanings a myth, purpose a cruel joke; pain the incense, a coffin the altar and certain, unending, death - the Deity. Anything which pits a man between self-concocted purposes in a purposeless potpourri of matter, or the razor blade across his wrists; is not, my, truth.

. . You know, I was staring into twilight just the other evening and I thought to myself; I truly feel sorry for the person who looks up at this navy drenched sky, sprinkled with a select few softly shining stars, who takes a deep breath and then realizes that it has nothing to it...it is a purposeless pile of, principally, mindless states of affairs. . .I am not saying this is a good reason to become a theist, but I do believe it to be a monumental issue for anyone who wishes to have an existentially satisfying atheism. It may not decide the matter, however - it, decidedly, matters.

. . .Meilleurs Voeux. . .

Edited by Servidor
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If you don't mind me interrupting; I think he was referring to the purposiveness behind a God-produced universe, in general. While, on this same token, an atheist can never have a "purpose" to the whole. I agree with Mackie, in that, an atheist may have "purposes" to live, which you must contrive for yourself, but when it comes down to the foremost question - you do not exist for a purpose...that which is all around you does not exist for a purpose either; it is nothing but a heap of matter impelling, impacting, importing ever doing something, never not doing nothing.

Okay, so an atheist (or at least some) is fine without having a designer.

A theist, on the other hand, likes to believe that he was made for a purpose which he cannot explain.

How is the theist situation better?

"I was made for a purpose!" screams the self-absorbed child.

This is the classic tantrum. Please tell me how your purpose is so much greater than mine, and you will serve your God, and the universe that he created, more than a nonbeliever.

Purpose, to my mind, is a notion foreign to the atheological conception of the universe. This is why almost every atheistic existentialist, I know of, has posited as the crowning question of being; not whether a God of sorts exists, but rather, whether or not to commit suicide. . .As Rousseau wrote, "Never, they say, can truth be hurtful to men. I think so too; and this, in my opinion, is a strong proof that what they teach(atheism) is not the truth." Meanings a myth, purpose a cruel joke; pain the incense, a coffin the altar and certain, unending, death - the Deity. Anything which pits a man between self-concocted purposes in a purposeless potpourri of matter, or the razor blade across his wrists; is not, my, truth.

"He's an atheist, therefore he must be Nietzsche."

The universe need not revolve around you. If such a universe makes you contemplate suicide, then you are not fit to be within it anyways.

To dream up some sort of comforting story written by barbarians in the stone ages is a crutch you need for survival, then is this not an aside about your own mental health, and not mine?

. . You know, I was staring into twilight just the other evening and I thought to myself; I truly feel sorry for the person who looks up at this navy drenched sky, sprinkled with a select few softly shining stars, who takes a deep breath and then realizes that it has nothing to it...it is a purposeless pile of, principally, mindless states of affairs. . .I am not saying this is a good reason to become a theist, but I do believe it to be a monumental issue for anyone who wishes to have an existentially satisfying atheism. It may not decide the matter, however - it, decidedly, matters.

. . .Meilleurs Voeux. . .

The night sky is ever more wondrous when you accept that the universe is greater than you. I see the sunset in all its vivid colors, without appending some know-it-all answer to do with some homophobic cosmic father.

Is it not enough to say that a garden is beautiful, without believing there are fairies in it?

Can I not say with as much validity that you are suicidal and don't appreciate life because you don't believe in Zeus, Jupiter, or Ra?

Your response was incredibly ad hominem.

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Okay, so an atheist (or at least some) is fine without having a designer.

A theist, on the other hand, likes to believe that he was made for a purpose which he cannot explain.

How is the theist situation better?

"I was made for a purpose!" screams the self-absorbed child.

This is the classic tantrum. Please tell me how your purpose is so much greater than mine, and you will serve your God, and the universe that he created, more than a nonbeliever.

You have missed the point, twice now. It is not a matter of personal purpose per person - we are discussing the question of whether or not, anything at all has a purpose. Do you believe that the universe has a purpose? Is there any underlying purposiveness to it? Or is it just a massive orgy of mindless states of material affairs?

"He's an atheist, therefore he must be Nietzsche."

Clearly you have never read Nietzsche - he gave man a purpose; it just was too hard for most to take on, himself included. I spoke of multiple existentialists and quoted a French author; so how did the old German come into this dialogue? Two shots and no target. Lets see what you come up with next post. Though I shall do you a favour and lay out the classical problem of being as proffered and, eerily agreed upon, by almost all atheistic existentialists.

Purpose cannot exist when it comes to yourself or the universe. For you are a product of the universe and the universe is a purposeless resultant of itself. Purpose, requires a goal or aim. If one slams their head against a brick wall - they do something, but to no aim(goal) and hence no achievement(purpose). The universe is a thoughtless material product, of other thoughtless material states; without thought there can be no goal(aim) set and thus those unfortunate enough to be rendered able in terms of thought later on - have no purpose(achievement). Life is a "race without a rudder", to quote Van der Leeuw. . .Now, there is much pain, much depression, much sorrow - and there is no purpose to the universe, yourself or life---you are doomed to die within a relatively short period of time, never to wake again. Why not just save yourself the trouble? End it all now, or alternatively, have nature end it all later. . .There is no other serious choice in the atheistic universe - you either commit suicide, or you make up purposes to live in a purposeless mess. . .To not take suicide, I believe, would be a token to mental illness - why perpetuate the pointless? Only a madman would force this painful existence upon himself, for no purpose whatsoever.

The universe need not revolve around you. If such a universe makes you contemplate suicide, then you are not fit to be within it anyways.

To dream up some sort of comforting story written by barbarians in the stone ages is a crutch you need for survival, then is this not an aside about your own mental health, and not mine?

Nobody has said that the universe needs to revolve around me, rather, I merely underscored that on your belief system, it does not revolve for a purpose. This terrifies you - I have been accused of being self-centered, narrow minded, believing in stone age fairy tales and now, perhaps, I am even mentally ill---all this in response to such a straightforward and, thus far, undenied fact. . .Do you, honestly, expect the usual list of atheistic bigotry to save you, in this your moment?

The night sky is ever more wondrous when you accept that the universe is greater than you. I see the sunset in all its vivid colors, without appending some know-it-all answer to do with some homophobic cosmic father.

^_^ How many years till God becomes a "pedastophobe" I wonder, place the petty barbs aside though and your statement loses all substance. For, when does the theist claim that the universe is not greater than himself? He simply believes that there is something greater than the universe and that the universe has a purposiveness to it, as per the creative will of a Creator. If admiring that which is greater than oneself was the hallmark of truth, then Monotheism would trump atheism once more.

Is it not enough to say that a garden is beautiful, without believing there are fairies in it?

Relevance? I spoke of purpose, you of beauty - my point was that the beauty is meaningless, it is purposeless and on whole, ephemeral...a sad realization for any thinking man or woman who finds solace in the sky. And you, naturally, have dodged this reality, this, with an antiquated stock phrase... ^_^ How does somethings being beautiful, negate its utter lack of meaning or purpose? Somethings looking pleasant, is hardly a reason to spend your entire life sitting there staring at it(you'll have delusioned yourself worse than any mythical meme ever could, if that is your approach to being) - walk out of your garden, face the rest of the world for a month and then return to the rotted mess which was once so pretty. . .One cannot be content with a garden for eternity and worse still, time is against you - you have a little over a century, tops. Furthermore; it is precisely the beauty of the universe(our bright and boundless garden) that makes swallowing this notion of it having no purpose whatever, so tragically hard to do. You have ceded my argument and yet you cannot bring yourself to admit, that for all the beauty and enchantment in the breadth of these heavens - they are naught but a purposeless pile of, principally, mindless states of material affairs. . .As I said, I feel sorry for you.

Can I not say with as much validity that you are suicidal and don't appreciate life because you don't believe in Zeus, Jupiter, or Ra?

Red herring, par excellence. What present pertinence, does this query carry? If you wish to turn the discussion upon different religions - then it is a matter of objective truth. I am simply saying that a godless universe is devoid of any purpose, will you deny as much? So long as the universe is the product of an Agent/s, remissless of who that agent, or group thereof, is - it has a purpose. Whether or not I am aware of who gave it purpose, is a whole other issue---but to be a theist and wrong with respect to religion, is to misunderstand the source; though the universe still, ultimately, has a purpose. Whereas; a universe with no creative pulse behind it, is purely purposeless. So, no. There is no validity to your response - it was merely a common atheistic punt; as put into play by you and yours, whenever you find yourselves cornered.

Your response was incredibly ad hominem.

Oh? Apparently you are not aware of what ad hominem means - I attacked no man's character in my post, I insulted noone, I did not even mention a single person's name. . .And hence; you have committed the fallacy, of which you had accused me of employing. My character has been spattered upon because you can't help but tiptoe about a simple fact of your own avowed worldview. It is the "brave-autonomy" factor of atheism, gone wrong.

. . .Meilleurs Voeux. . .

Edited by Servidor
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(bismillah)

You don't seem to like atheism because you don't think it gives purpose.

So what is your god-given purpose?

What is the divine purpose that you have that I haven't found?

Your questions are proof for Servidor's very well argued points, that atheism has not given you any purpose to life.

For us, the universe is living, not dead or simply following impersonal scientific rules. We are also living beings, not simply rational masses of nothing.

Our purpose is to know God and thus know true Reality, resulting in actions based on that Reality, which are the best in this world as well as earning felicity in the next world.

Our existence is full of purpose as we have to actualise the Names of God which are dormant within us but which is what is ment when it is said "God taught Adam all the Names"

It is a process of continual self discovery which yeilds happiness and good action.

To fulfill ones purpose is incomparable to any other happiness and loftier than any other goal.

A life without purpose is empty in the same measure as a life with purpose is full.

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You have missed the point, twice now. It is not a matter of personal purpose per person - we are discussing the question of whether or not, anything at all has a purpose. Do you believe that the universe has a purpose? Is there any underlying purposiveness to it? Or is it just a massive orgy of mindless states of material affairs?

What difference does it make?

Do rapists have a purpose? Does murder have a purpose?

Clearly you have never read Nietzsche - he gave man a purpose; it just was too hard for most to take on, himself included. I spoke of multiple existentialists and quoted a French author; so how did the old German come into this dialogue? Two shots and no target. Lets see what you come up with next post. Though I shall do you a favour and lay out the classical problem of being as proffered and, eerily agreed upon, by almost all atheistic existentialists.

Purpose cannot exist when it comes to yourself or the universe. For you are a product of the universe and the universe is a purposeless resultant of itself. Purpose, requires a goal or aim. If one slams their head against a brick wall - they do something, but to no aim(goal) and hence no achievement(purpose). The universe is a thoughtless material product, of other thoughtless material states; without thought there can be no goal(aim) set and thus those unfortunate enough to be rendered able in terms of thought later on - have no purpose(achievement). Life is a "race without a rudder", to quote Van der Leeuw. . .Now, there is much pain, much depression, much sorrow - and there is no purpose to the universe, yourself or life---you are doomed to die within a relatively short period of time, never to wake again. Why not just save yourself the trouble? End it all now, or alternatively, have nature end it all later. . .There is no other serious choice in the atheistic universe - you either commit suicide, or you make up purposes to live in a purposeless mess. . .To not take suicide, I believe, would be a token to mental illness - why perpetuate the pointless? Only a madman would force this painful existence upon himself, for no purpose whatsoever.

Being without divinity doesn't mean that one necessarily finds life pointless.

That is, I can live life for amusement. Is life not amusing?

You seem to view life as one huge painful experience that would mean nothing without a greater being that we are purposefully acting for.

I see that to be the negative view of life.

Nobody has said that the universe needs to revolve around me, rather, I merely underscored that on your belief system, it does not revolve for a purpose. This terrifies you - I have been accused of being self-centered, narrow minded, believing in stone age fairy tales and now, perhaps, I am even mentally ill---all this in response to such a straightforward and, thus far, undenied fact. . .Do you, honestly, expect the usual list of atheistic bigotry to save you, in this your moment?

You seem to have removed all sense of personal purpose at this point, and expanded it to something general. That is, the universe has a purpose.

So what is the purpose of the universe?

^_^ How many years till God becomes a "pedastophobe" I wonder, place the petty barbs aside though and your statement loses all substance. For, when does the theist claim that the universe is not greater than himself? He simply believes that there is something greater than the universe and that the universe has a purposiveness to it, as per the creative will of a Creator. If admiring that which is greater than oneself was the hallmark of truth, then Monotheism would trump atheism once more.

Atheism has never been trumped. It has always been with us.

The same cannot be said of any religion.

There has never been 100% belief rate, and within a religion there has never been 100% consistency within worldview. Has no religion seen apostasy? Do Shia agree on everything within themselves?

Why is it that so many believers are children of believers? Why do we not see as many fresh atheist converts that one might expect?

Because it is very hard to believe if your childhood wasn't severely manipulated.

Relevance? I spoke of purpose, you of beauty - my point was that the beauty is meaningless, it is purposeless and on whole, ephemeral...a sad realization for any thinking man or woman who finds solace in the sky. And you, naturally, have dodged this reality, this, with an antiquated stock phrase... ^_^ How does somethings being beautiful, negate its utter lack of meaning or purpose? Somethings looking pleasant, is hardly a reason to spend your entire life sitting there staring at it(you'll have delusioned yourself worse than any mythical meme ever could, if that is your approach to being) - walk out of your garden, face the rest of the world for a month and then return to the rotted mess which was once so pretty. . .One cannot be content with a garden for eternity and worse still, time is against you - you have a little over a century, tops. Furthermore; it is precisely the beauty of the universe(our bright and boundless garden) that makes swallowing this notion of it having no purpose whatever, so tragically hard to do. You have ceded my argument and yet you cannot bring yourself to admit, that for all the beauty and enchantment in the breadth of these heavens - they are naught but a purposeless pile of, principally, mindless states of material affairs. . .As I said, I feel sorry for you.

Red herring, par excellence. What present pertinence, does this query carry? If you wish to turn the discussion upon different religions - then it is a matter of objective truth. I am simply saying that a godless universe is devoid of any purpose, will you deny as much? So long as the universe is the product of an Agent/s, remissless of who that agent, or group thereof, is - it has a purpose. Whether or not I am aware of who gave it purpose, is a whole other issue---but to be a theist and wrong with respect to religion, is to misunderstand the source; though the universe still, ultimately, has a purpose. Whereas; a universe with no creative pulse behind it, is purely purposeless. So, no. There is no validity to your response - it was merely a common atheistic punt, as put into play whenever they find themselves cornered.

Oh? Apparently you are not aware of what ad hominem means - I attacked no man's character in my post, I insulted noone, I did not even mention a single person's name. . .And hence; you have committed the fallacy, of which you had accused me of employing. My character has been spattered upon because you can't help but tiptoe about a simple fact of your own avowed worldview. It is the "brave-autonomy" factor of atheism, gone wrong.

. . .Meilleurs Voeux. . .

I actually enjoy reading your posts a lot, but this is what I see your posts here as saying to me at this point:

"Oh, atheists are existentalists that ultimately face some sort of life struggle where they think about killing themselves. Theists are immune to this!"

... is like saying...

"Oh, I don't know how anybody could be a theist, all the theists I know are ex-cons, former alcoholics, and Roman Catholic boy loving priests. They participate in a death cult, and if I was a theist, I think I would kill myself so I could be brought to God even faster!"

Seriously, if atheists are so damn suicidal, why are the only people willing to strap bombs on their chests and fly planes into buildings theists?

Maybe they want to visit the guy you speak of so highly?

(bismillah)

Your questions are proof for Servidor's very well argued points, that atheism has not given you any purpose to life.

For us, the universe is living, not dead or simply following impersonal scientific rules. We are also living beings, not simply rational masses of nothing.

Our purpose is to know God and thus know true Reality, resulting in actions based on that Reality, which are the best in this world as well as earning felicity in the next world.

Our existence is full of purpose as we have to actualise the Names of God which are dormant within us but which is what is ment when it is said "God taught Adam all the Names"

It is a process of continual self discovery which yeilds happiness and good action.

To fulfill ones purpose is incomparable to any other happiness and loftier than any other goal.

A life without purpose is empty in the same measure as a life with purpose is full.

This sounds like an almost pantheistic worldview. If this is the case, then we can agree on a lot more things than I had expected.

However, between now and a state of knowing reality completely, I do not wish to dream up answers.

That is why I have problems with creationism, codes, rules, scripture, prophecy, prophets and dogma.

You have implied this worldview is without purpose - somehow that if I don't have an anthropomorphized god, described in one scripture or another then I really don't have a purpose in life.

I asked you what purpose this relationship with God gives you. I don't think you've answered that with honesty.

You've high-fived Servidor's rant about depressed atheists, as if that was somehow an answer.

If we want to compare how sad a state of affairs we are in, we are referred to discussions of social strife and politics, where we are equally screwed and depressed.

I think depression is irrelevant, yet I believe that I am happier than most on this forum.

I do not look at the world with islamic goggles. On this forum, apparantely bacon, music, talking to non-mahrams, certain forms of dress are all insults to god in one form of Islam or another.

But I look upon these things and I do not feel any sort of depression when they prove popular. I do not wish the world to repent. The world is imperfect, as I am. The world simply is, as I am. And I am content.

Now, again, please tell me what your purpose is, or, what the purpose of the world is. Use your relationship with god to explain this.

Explain how your life is purposeful. Explain how theists see life as beautiful, in what their scripture may describe as a sin filled, disgusting world.

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Cold?

Yeah, its cold. Without reason and stupid. Want your kids to say they don't believe in a hereafter and God??

Having a little girl inspire people, smart yet she seemed to not have a very good education. And the comments, they made me laugh. :P

FreedomFromReligion- please don't take offense.

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Here we go again! Theist and their purposeful existence :lol: You simply can't accept the fact that you are little and unimportant in the scheme of things. Your anthropomorphic Gods and little geocentric universe is not a consoling truth anymore. The universe, is grand beyond the imagination of your unimaginative medieval religions, cold and apathetic.

I argue that even if an atheist's existence is pointless, it's better than false sense of purpose. A comforting lie is not better than a bitter truth.

A friend who offers a false consolation is indeed a false friend ;)

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Yeah, its cold. Without reason and stupid.

How is it without reason?

Want your kids to say they don't believe in a hereafter and God??

Yes. Why should they believe the best part of life comes after death?

Who knows what they'll do if they actually believe that. They may want martyrdom.

FreedomFromReligion- please don't take offense.

None taken :)

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(bismillah)

This sounds like an almost pantheistic worldview. If this is the case, then we can agree on a lot more things than I had expected.

I apologise. I did not realise that you thought that there is in fact a deeper purpose to what you see around you. In fact if you have this kind of outlook, i think you will be amazed in how much we can share:)

However, between now and a state of knowing reality completely, I do not wish to dream up answers.

Here we need to be careful. You must realise that knowing reality is a very delicate business. In the world today a lot of words are used to make something credible.

An example from your video is when the "scientist" is trying to explain why matter comes in and out of existence. He says the the first explianation is that there is a parrallel universe. This is an acceptable "scientific" explaination. However it is little more than science fiction. He has no basis for that explaination.

One cannot know reality from the outset, but must find it. For that a person cannot rely only on one faculty alone even if it is rationality.

A person is usually trapped within their education. But i contend that there are other parts of a human with which reality can be perceived with. I call it a soul. Other people have called it the magnetic waves that each and every cell in you body emits. Whatever you choose to use, you must at least know that rationality is not enough.

That is why I have problems with creationism, codes, rules, scripture, prophecy, prophets and dogma.

This is the exact place were we differ. I think that there have been people that have understood reality. I also think that the Real that created us wants to guide us to reality and so chooses people who will serve as guides to humanity.

Since people do not immediately understand reality, they need help and this is the role of religion. In Islamic spirituality little progress can be made without following the sharia and further understanding reality means understanding sharia.

What i mean here is that everything is created with a reality. A human is the only creature that can come to the understanding of these realities and so is the only creature that can act with everything according to its reality, whish is the essence of the sharia.

You have implied this worldview is without purpose - somehow that if I don't have an anthropomorphized god, described in one scripture or another then I really don't have a purpose in life.

As mentioned above, i did take you for an atheist that denyed all types of depth or even the existence of a spiritual relm. However if you are a pluralist then there is possibly some purpose if you agree that you too have to find more about God.

We do not beleive in an anthromorphizised god and the principles we are talking about are found in all religions. I too read other spiritual texts, but i also believe that Islam is the final message and has everything contained in it.

I do not look at the world with islamic goggles. On this forum, apparantely bacon, music, talking to non-mahrams, certain forms of dress are all insults to god in one form of Islam or another.

But I look upon these things and I do not feel any sort of depression when they prove popular. I do not wish the world to repent. The world is imperfect, as I am. The world simply is, as I am. And I am content.

As explained previously the sharia has the dos and donts of reality. It is not surprising that you are content with these things as you have no claim to know reality especially in the way i have refered to.

However a day will come when every person will face reality. If you search yourself you know deep inside that every action you do you will face its consequences finally.

In the same way, although you might not find any problems with the things we avoid now, in time you will.

Now, again, please tell me what your purpose is, or, what the purpose of the world is. Use your relationship with god to explain this.

Explain how your life is purposeful. Explain how theists see life as beautiful, in what their scripture may describe as a sin filled, disgusting world.

This time insh i hpe i am more successful in explaining. Using the background of our discussion there are the following points:

1) God is exhalted so that he cannot be compared with anything on the one hand but discloses Himself on the other hand.

2) God is manifest through the cosmos and through the human.

3) He is the Real and that means that everything surrounding us is reality but also manifests His other Names in differing proportions.

4) We all have these Names within us.

5) Actuallising the Names means that we understand God and the cosmos.

6) We therefore act according to reality.

7) This brings the best actions in this world which is harmoney with creation and happiness.

8) It also bring success in the next world, which is the disclosure of reality. On that day those that acted according to reality will be rewarded with proximity to God and those that did not will have not met their purpose.

Their creation would have been worse than useless as they not only did not fulfill their purpose, but the acted arrogantly concerning God and they will face His punishment.

This too on reflection is a very natural process.

Hence if i talk from a personal relationship perspective, experiencing reality is a process which strengthens. A person must try through performing good acts and reflection to attract God's Mercy. The dominion of the heart is only God's. There is no way to make the heart do anything (in terms of knowledge) without God. God then guides his servent from darkness into the light of what it means to be alive.

The heart here is in the Islamic sence, that is the center through which holistic understandings are made without the need of being taught.

It is a long process and i will not claim that i am there, but i understand the path and ask God to help me tread it.

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As Rousseau wrote, "Never, they say, can truth be hurtful to men. I think so too; and this, in my opinion, is a strong proof that what they teach(atheism) is not the truth."

Greetings, Servidor,

If Rousseau actually wrote this, he was a fool. The truth is entirely unconcerned with human happiness, as should be evident to even the most casual thinker. If that which is hurtful is necessarily untrue, then there must be no cancer, no abuse of children, no war, no earthquakes, nothing which disturbs peace and tranquility.

As ever, Jesse

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Greetings, Servidor,

If Rousseau actually wrote this, he was a fool. The truth is entirely unconcerned with human happiness, as should be evident to even the most casual thinker. If that which is hurtful is necessarily untrue, then there must be no cancer, no abuse of children, no war, no earthquakes, nothing which disturbs peace and tranquility.

As ever, Jesse

I agree that truth is indiscriminant of feelings.

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