Men's Past = Experience:woman's Past=bad Past

[Maryaam]

Ahh...What are you talking about, Maryam? I just read over both posts. #74 and #76.

He didn't call her a liar.

He didn't call her husband a liar.

He didn't call either of them non-Muslims.

You have to really play fast and loose with the words to even try to pin that reading on what he actually said.

This is why I have trouble taking you seriously here, and this is to be honest one of the root problems of the endless arguments you gals have with him.

Dude has his presentation issues, but it doesn't help that you don't take the time to properly read what he says.

Then y'all fly off the handle in an emotional fashion in some hysterical offense at things that weren't even in what was said.

This happens over and over again. It's not a one off. It's a pattern of behavior.

This kind of thing is what I was referring to in response to her posts.

Which religion are you people? i really doubt that you people are muslims because non of your ideologies are steming from islam and in fact most of them are directly aagainst islam

And with regard to men liying, all i tried to say was that from my experince lots of men who say " I have never touched a woman before " are actually liars. (responding to the words her husband said to her)

You are influnced by the west and your religion has changed (that would be non Muslim) and we agree that we disagree as you said

Her response was:

You're the first person in my entire life who dare speaking with me with such disrespect. Which of my ideas was against Islam? Marrying someone who you intend to stay with forever? Supress your hormones for a year or two then marry someone who will satisfy all your physical mental emotionel and spiritual needs? I really don't know what did I say that is against Islam.

[........but I guess she has reading comprehension problems and emotional issues........]

But anyway I dont need to have multiple people writing posts about all my many shortcomings so - I am out.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Maryaam

[Ali_Hussain]

This kind of thing is what I was referring to in response to her posts.

Which religion are you people? i really doubt that you people are muslims because non of your ideologies are steming from islam and in fact most of them are directly aagainst islam

And with regard to men liying, all i tried to say was that from my experince lots of men who say " I have never touched a woman before " are actually liars. (responding to the words her husband said to her)

You are influnced by the west and your religion has changed (that would be non Muslim) and we agree that we disagree as you said

But anyway I dont need to have multiple people writing posts about all my many shortcomings so - I am out.

'Men' like 'Alimohammad40' should be weeded out and jailed for life!

You always seem so concerned with sing authentic proofs to tell the 'sunnis' whats what, I'm suprised you take this line, the brother always backs up what he says with proof either from Qur'an, hadith or fatwa - from our sources

I guess yasser habib doesn't talk about these issues, so you are allowed to use you own mind here? Maybe you should ask him what his views are, chances are, he would agree with the brother

Edited May 23, 2012 by Ali_Hussain

[Ali_Hussain]

he doesnt bring authentic translation of whatever. he twists and play around with words and abuse God's laws. such ideas are irrational and are supported by no religion, race, culture e tc, he's both mentally and emotionally unstable man, so can not be taken serious, either he should be told to stop or get rid off. men like him bring no good to our muslim societies except damage it further!

r you a mutt or what?

Anyways, maybe you should read up on what the shi'a positon on mut'a is, and then talk. Because its quite clear you don't have a clue

[hubbe_hussein110]

^^ yet another exemplary response from Ismahan with regards to akhlaq.

[kadhim]

This kind of thing is what I was referring to in response to her posts.

Which religion are you people? i really doubt that you people are muslims because non of your ideologies are steming from islam and in fact most of them are directly aagainst islam

And with regard to men liying, all i tried to say was that from my experince lots of men who say " I have never touched a woman before " are actually liars. (responding to the words her husband said to her)

You are influnced by the west and your religion has changed (that would be non Muslim) and we agree that we disagree as you said

Her response was:

You're the first person in my entire life who dare speaking with me with such disrespect. Which of my ideas was against Islam? Marrying someone who you intend to stay with forever? Supress your hormones for a year or two then marry someone who will satisfy all your physical mental emotionel and spiritual needs? I really don't know what did I say that is against Islam.

[........but I guess she has reading comprehension problems and emotional issues........]

But anyway I dont need to have multiple people writing posts about all my many shortcomings so - I am out.

Yes, Maryam. If she felt personally disrespected by that post, she had reading comprehension and perhaps emotional issues.

[Shia_Debater]

Not everyone

[hubbe_hussein110]

do not educate me about so called mutah thing. I know what it is, but I also know that 'men' who pretend to be 'religious' are the worst when it comes to abusing God's laws. I aint got a problem with mutah, I have a problem when ppl do not follow the rules and the basic akhlaq that comes with it.

what's with my akhlaq? pointing out to a serious relevant problem he has u allow urself to question my akhlaq. anyway you know it urself, ur not the best one to come and preach abt those things (akhlaq) here.

I've never preached anyone about their akhlaq. Funny you say that, you are the one who preaches others about akhlaq and you needed to be called out. Call someone a mutt? wth. Relax son.

[Ali_Hussain]

do not educate me about so called mutah thing. I know what it is, but I also know that 'men' who pretend to be 'religious' are the worst when it comes to abusing God's laws. I aint got a problem with mutah, I have a problem when ppl do not follow the rules and the basic akhlaq that comes with it.

he doesnt bring authentic translation of whatever. he twists and play around with words and abuse God's laws. such ideas are irrational and are supported by no religion, race, culture e tc, he's both mentally and emotionally unstable man, so can not be taken serious, either he should be told to stop or get rid off. men like him bring no good to our muslim societies except damage it further!

r you a mutt or what?

First of all, you called me a mutt, and that is not the only time you have shown bad akhlaq to members on this forum, so stop with the blatant hypocrisy,

Second you said "such ideas are irrational and are supported by no religion" - yes they are, ours. He provided his proof, the onus is on you to show where he lied, or mistranslated.

Again, I'm shocked, you spend all your time cursing umer, but you follow him on this issue? When earlier on today you gave your little speech about "you are either with ahl u-bayt 100% or with their enemies" (me paraphrasing, your words may have been a little different)

[Christianlady]

What completely blows my mind is how it was never brought up that someone thinks because their "needs" aren't being met they have the right go objectify another human by purchasing that person just because that person is impoverished or from a poor country. Don't fool yourself into thinking that you are helping that human being, because in reality you are just replacing one bad situation with another. There are other less selfish ways to help. Inshallah no one ever violates the rights of you or anyone you hold dear in such a way....and if it does happen you don't even have the right to put forth a mere whimper.

Hello I'm Ali,

This sadly happens all over the world, in many different beliefs. :( It fills me with shame that some Americans or people from other countries traffick girls into the USA or anywhere. As a Christian lady, it is important to me to fight against slavery no matter what kind, and to help rescue these children/women who are being treated as property to buy, sell, and use. I hate trafficking and slavery so much, and sadly, there are people of every belief who do this... at least who call themselves of a certain belief. :( It makes me so angry when I hear of "Christians" who treat people like this. :(

Peace and God bless you

Edited May 23, 2012 by Christianlady

[hubbe_hussein110]

what was the point of ur post abt me then? I never insulted any one, u got an issue with me. this aint first time you come out of no where and direct a comment to me. get life bro... I will say whatever I deem right and good. you have to deal with it.

...and it won't be the last, you'll have to deal with that. You need to relax with the personal insults big time and just deal with the issue at hand.

[Maryaam]

Yes, Maryam. If she felt personally disrespected by that post, she had reading comprehension and perhaps emotional issues.

Well Kadhim - of course she did!! I have come to understand from your pack that Alimo is nothing but the beacon of Islam no matter what he says or how he says his thinly veiled fatwas of apostasy. If females are offended - it is their problem - certainly not his.

You are right considering that she was...female....emotional....deficient...what more is there to say? Thanks to God that she left as did many others with similar deficiencies.

Too bad you are stuck with me.

[Haydar Husayn]

Well Kadhim - of course she did!! I have come to understand from your pack that Alimo is nothing but the beacon of Islam no matter what he says or how he says his thinly veiled fatwas of apostasy. If females are offended - it is their problem - certainly not his.

If you notice, he continued to call her 'sister', and to send salam, so I doubt he considered her an apostate.

plz do not accuse me of hypocrisy, I simply called to do something about a man who views women in such a nasty way.

How does he view women? You realise that not all women are the same right? And that Islam has different ways of viewing different women?

yes such ideas r irrational and goes against the very fitra (nature) of humans. our prophet and imams never practiced this. its not first time we see some 'men' mentions islam and ahlulbayt constantly to hide their fetish. which believer allows himself to be in such filthy environment. its better he stays with his books instead.

What irrational ideas would those be?

[Muhammed Ali]

I've read a few of these sorts of threads with alimohamed over the years.

Alimohamed is a straight up sort of dude who tends to the blunt side, but the young women in these threads are rarely, if ever, the victims you portray them to be. In my experience, they give as good as they get, and then some, and then some more for good measure, usually with 4 or 5 piling on at once.

What I usually see is that he says his piece, people question him, he backs himself up with sources, and then the women get frustrated and start getting nasty. He does from time to time call the women who attack him "unislamic," but, to be frank, that's often because the arguments the women bring are not based on Islamic evidences or principles, at least not in any coherent, well-argued form.

At least that's the impression I usually get as a casual reader.

I don't agree with some of these views of alimohamad40 but if I were to attempt a refutation, I would try to address the points that he is making and directly refute them. These sisters would do well if they made the effort to respond using arguments that have an Islamic foundation. If he brings the Quran, ahadith and the views of scholars then the proper way to respond would be to analyse these sources and prove that his understanding of them is incorrect. If there are sisters who believe that some ulama have been unfair to women, then these sisters need to refute them by increasing their own knowledge so that they can debate on the same level.

[Marbles]

I don't agree with some of these views of alimohamad40 but if I were to attempt a refutation, I would try to address the points that he is making and directly refute them. These sisters would do well if they made the effort to respond using arguments that have an Islamic foundation. If he brings the Quran, ahadith and the views of scholars then the proper way to respond would be to analyse these sources and prove that his understanding of them is incorrect. If there are sisters who believe that some ulama have been unfair to women, then these sisters need to refute them by increasing their own knowledge so that they can debate on the same level.

It's been done many times over the years. Do you think the message gets across to that dude? No. Never.

His only preoccupation with Islam is to dig out fatwas which allow mutah with prostitutes and dream about the good old days when it was a fair game to buy slave girls for bed time pleasures. That's where his Islam starts and that's where it ends.

[Haydar Husayn]

It's been done many times over the years. Do you think the message gets across to that dude? No. Never.

His only preoccupation with Islam is to dig out fatwas which allow mutah with prostitutes and dream about the good old days when it was a fair game to buy slave girls for bed time pleasures. That's where his Islam starts and that's where it ends.

When was this done? I've never seen it.

[Guest Mushu]

A fitting song for this thread:

[King]

Ahh...What are you talking about, Maryam? I just read over both posts. #74 and #76.

He didn't call her a liar.

He didn't call her husband a liar.

He didn't call either of them non-Muslims.

You have to really play fast and loose with the words to even try to pin that reading on what he actually said.

This is why I have trouble taking you seriously here, and this is to be honest one of the root problems of the endless arguments you gals have with him.

Dude has his presentation issues, but it doesn't help that you don't take the time to properly read what he says.

Then y'all fly off the handle in an emotional fashion in some hysterical offense at things that weren't even in what was said.

This happens over and over again. It's not a one off. It's a pattern of behavior.

To be honest, I think it's just a symptom of the general low level of reading compehension around here. The men aren't much different when it comes to responding to views they don't like. Somehow people always end up attributing things to you that you never said.

Lets face the damn facts. It is true that Alimo does use authentic islamic sources and for the most part no one here can argue what he advocates is not justified or allowed from an islamic perspective. This does not mean that he does not cleverly disguise insults in between his islamic pronouncements, and this for any reasonable person goes against the spirit of our faith, sometimes being outright immoral and haram. What on earth do you expect? He obviously wants a reaction and he gets one. Some women here do not have an issue with the islamic framework. Their beef is with ridicule and insults, and actions that come off as inconsiderate, so they respond emotionally, and Alimo's supporters interpret that as a direct insult to the religion itself, when rather it is quite an understandable emotional response to his rhetoric. A lot of women here also are unfair in their criticisms of him and hurl very harsh insults his way, but we must also be mindful of well intentioned sisters who are not. Sister Tranquility seemed very fair and understanding.

It is okay to back the guy when he is right, which he is a lot of the times, but its a bi*** move to not be willing to call him out when he obviously tries to get too cute and causes some serious harm to well intentioned sisters.

[Muhammed Ali]

It's been done many times over the years. Do you think the message gets across to that dude? No. Never.

His only preoccupation with Islam is to dig out fatwas which allow mutah with prostitutes and dream about the good old days when it was a fair game to buy slave girls for bed time pleasures. That's where his Islam starts and that's where it ends.

Our difference of opinion with him does not warrant how some people oppose his views. We may disagree with him on this issue but at least the man has some knowledge and makes an effort to study his religion. Who should we respect more? A person of knowledge who has some incorrect views or a person who opposes them without even attempting to gain knowledge? I am not writing this to convince him to change his mind (it seems very unlikely to happen), I just wish that these particular opponents understood the futility of their position. All I am doing here is encouraging them to change their approach for their own good and for other greater goods, not so that they can change his mind.

I must add that I don't necessarily agree with the opinions of some of these sisters who go to the other extreme.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Muhammed Ali

[Ali_Hussain]

plz do not accuse me of hypocrisy, I simply called to do something about a man who views women in such a nasty way. I think ppl need to get over themselves and stop accusing ppl when said what they dont like. It's truly a huge shame to see such a ppl in our shia community who pretend to belong to it. if I was asked by non shias abt them I wud surely deny them, period. such ppl give us a nasty image.

It is hypocracy because you talk about akhlaq not two minutes after calling me a "mutt". Now you say:

"I think ppl need to get over themselves and stop accusing ppl when said what they dont like."

This is exactly what you have done with the brother in question, you have accused him of all kinds of things, The latest of which is:

" It's truly a huge shame to see such a ppl in our shia community who pretend to belong to it. if I was asked by non shias abt them I wud surely deny them"

So now he's an apostate? Very nice, the sadest part of all of this is that this is how you defend your position

yes such ideas r irrational and goes against the very fitra (nature) of humans. our prophet and imams never practiced this. its not first time we see some 'men' mentions islam and ahlulbayt constantly to hide their fetish. which believer allows himself to be in such filthy environment. its better he stays with his books instead.

you state no sources, just your claim (that in you opinion) it goes against the very fitra of humans. Then claim the Imams never practiced this. Well they certainly made in permissable, and more to the point, they themselves had slave wives, quite a few of them.

Yet more hypocracy on your part is that recently, you were defending tatbir, saying no one is allowed to make it haram, well was that ever practiced by an Imam? That argument works for you here, but not there?

then you finish off by saying:

"its better he stays with his books instead"

what is that even supposed to mean? Books are the best source of guidance we have today, I guess you don't read them because you can't stomach what is in them.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Ali_Hussain

[ImAli]

Do any of you realize what goes on in human trafficking rings? The conditions are abusive, horrible, and oppressive....and when people buy humans it only encourages the market for these things to continue. Animals are treated better than these people who are trafficked from poor countries. These people are usually tricked into thinking they are going somewhere else (for a legitimate job), or they are just outright kidnapped or stolen from their families......then they are sold by people who don't have the right to be selling them and bought by people who don't have the right to be buying them. Do you people actually think that if you buy one of these girls you are doing her a favor? She doesn't want to be with you....she wants to go back to her family. Or do you just need a few favors in return before setting her free? Why not for a change try putting yourselves in the shoes of another human before trying to justify such an oppressive act.

What about those who used to purchase slave girls then? I guess they were the lowest of the low. Right?

Don't you get tired of word games?

[kadhim]

Do any of you realize what goes on in human trafficking rings? The conditions are abusive, horrible, and oppressive....and when people buy humans it only encourages the market for these things to continue. Animals are treated better than these people who are trafficked from poor countries. These people are usually tricked into thinking they are going somewhere else (for a legitimate job), or they are just outright kidnapped or stolen from their families......then they are sold by people who don't have the right to be selling them and bought by people who don't have the right to be buying them. Do you people actually think that if you buy one of these girls you are doing her a favor? She doesn't want to be with you....she wants to go back to her family. Or do you just need a few favors in return before setting her free? Why not for a change try putting yourselves in the shoes of another human before trying to justify such an oppressive act.

Don't you get tired of word games?

You really think he was talking about buying a sex slave? I'll let him speak for himself, but somehow I think he was just referring to importing a simple old fashioned girl from the old country.

[guest 34193]

I don't agree with some of these views of alimohamad40 but if I were to attempt a refutation, I would try to address the points that he is making and directly refute them. These sisters would do well if they made the effort to respond using arguments that have an Islamic foundation. If he brings the Quran, ahadith and the views of scholars then the proper way to respond would be to analyse these sources and prove that his understanding of them is incorrect. If there are sisters who believe that some ulama have been unfair to women, then these sisters need to refute them by increasing their own knowledge so that they can debate on the same level.

It wouldn’t be that hard if people would bother to learn the sources and rely less on cheap ad hominem attacks based on emotional outbursts, as well as stop trying to pigeon hole Islam to somehow fit in it with Christian or post-Christian sensibilities on such topics. But, say one where to give it a go, you might do something like this:

There’s a lot of reference made to the jealousy of women being kufr, and so used as a way of shutting down those women who will object to being in a polygamous marriage. While it is true that there are narrations of such a sort, they can be understood in the context of actual denial of God’s laws and trying to change them to suit one’s feelings or in committing some evil as a consequence of it. Simply having a preference not to be in such a situation, as well as having the very human reaction of feeling jealousy for one’s spouse shouldn’t always be pinned down to the women being some wicked heathen out to destroy Islam.. So, in reference to the ahadith, one should like in a lot of these things try to find some balance in what they say. A good example for the jealousy issue would to cite this hadith on the topic:

[ 25296 ] 5 ـ وعن أبي علي الاشعري ، عن محمد بن عبد الجبار ، عن صفوان ، عن اسحاق بن عمار قال : قلت لابي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) : المرأة تغار على الرجل تؤذيه قال : ذاك من الحب .

5 – And from Abu `Ali al-Ash`ari from Muhammad b. `Abd al-Jabbar from Safwan from Ishaq b. `Ammar. He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah (عليه السلام): The woman is jealous for the man, annoying him. He said: That is from love.

Should the woman be annoying her husband with her jealousy? No, but is it that she’s just some evil women whose nearly a kafir? Of course not, the Imam simply explains it’s normal reaction to the fact of her loving him.

Now, as to the hadiths recommending the performance of mut`a, yes, the hadiths clearly recommend it and encourage its practice, so no one can deny that. But why do they encourage it so much? The answer to that might be seen in hadiths like this one:

[ 26398 ] 11 ـ وبالاسناد عن ابن عيسى ، عن ابن الحجاج ، عن العلا ، عن محمد بن مسلم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : قال لي : تمتعت ؟ قلت : لا ، قال : لا تخرج من الدنيا حتى تحيي السنة .

11 – And by the isnad from Ibn `Isa from Ibn al-Hajjaj from al-`Ala from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: He said to me: Have you done mut`a? I said: No. He said: Do not leave the world until you have revived the Sunna.

See that part about reviving the Sunna? Now look at this hadith:

[ 26396 ] 9 ـ محمد بن يعقوب ، عن محمد بن يحيى ، عن أحمد بن محمد ، عن علي بن الحكم ، عن بشر بن حمزة ، عن رجل من قريش قال : بعثت إلى ابنة عم لي كان لها مال كثير : قد عرفت كثرة من يخطبني من الرجال فلم أزوجهم نفسي ، وما بعثت اليك رغبة في الرجال غير أنه بلغني أنه أحلها الله في كتابه وسنها رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) في سنته فحرمها زفر ، فأحببت أن أطيع الله عز وجل فوق عرشه وأطيع رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) وأعصي زفر فتزوجني متعة ، فقلت لها : حتى أدخل على أبي جعفر ( عليه السلام ) فأستشيره ، قال : فدخلت عليه فخبرته ، فقال : افعل صلى الله عليكما من زوج .

9 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from `Ali b. al-Hakam from Bishr [Bashir – in al-Kafi] b. Hamza from a man of Quraysh. He said: The daughter of an aunt of mine who has a lot of property sent to me: I had known that many men had sought my hand and I have not married myself to them and I have not sent to you desiring men except that it has reached me that Allah has made mut`a halal in His book and the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله سلم legislated [stated – in al-Kafi] it in his Sunna, then Zufar made it haram, so I love that I should obey Allah عز وجل above His Throne and obey the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله and disobey Zufar. So marry me (in) mut`a. So I said to her: (Wait) until I enter upon Abu Ja`far عليه السلام and take his counsel. So I entered and sought his counsel. So he said: Do it, Allah bless you (two) from a spouse (?).

There it’s explicitly being done as a way of re-emphasizing its legitimacy in against those who said it was haram.

But what about without that motivation in mind? Should one still be obsessed over getting as many mut`a as you can to fill your near infinite sexual needs?

[ 26423 ] 4 ـ وعن عدة من أصحابنا ، عن سهل بن زياد ، عن محمد بن الحسن بن شمون قال : كتب أبو الحسن ( عليه السلام ) إلى بعض مواليه لا تلحوا على المتعة انما عليكم إقامة السنة فلا تشغلوا بها عن فرشكم وحرائركم فيكفرن ويتبرين ويدعين على الآمر بذلك ويلعنونا .

4 – And from a number of our companions from Sahl b. Ziyad from Muhammad b. al-Hasan b. Shammun. He said: Abu ‘l-Hasan عليه السلام wrote to some of his supporters: Do not insist on mut`a, only the establishment of the Sunna is upon you. So do not preoccupy (yourself) with it from your beds and free (women), then they would do kufr and bara’at and call upon the authorities to you by that, and they would curse us.

Now what about having mut`a with a loose women or even a prostitute, something else that gets brought up here with long lists of fatawa to somehow prove the point. Thing is there’s a clear difference between saying something is a legitimate marriage (i.e. it’s not fornication and so no punishment for it) and then actually encouraging one to engage in it.. In the case of going with such a woman, one can fiqhi see the argument that the haram does not make the halal haram, so the woman’s haram lifestyle doesn’t in itself make the halal route (marriage) forbidden. But should you do it?

[ 26436 ] 4 ـ وعن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن محمد بن عيسى ، عن يونس ، عن محمد بن الفضيل قال : سألت أبا الحسن ( عليه السلام ) عن المرأة الحسناء الفاجرة ، هل تحب للرجل أن يتمتع منها يوما أو أكثر ؟ فقال : إذا كانت مشهورة بالزنا فلا يتمتع منها ولا ينكحها .

4 – And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from Muhammad b. `Isa from Yunus from Muhammad b. al-Fudayl. He said: I asked Abu ‘l-Hasan عليه السلام about the beautiful dissolute woman, is it beloved [is it permissible – in al-Kafi] for the man to do mut`a with her for a day or more? So he said: If she is famous with fornication, then do not do mut`a with her and do not marry her.

[ 26434 ] 2 ـ وعن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن ابن أبي عمير ، عن عبدالله بن أبي يعفور ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) ، قال : سألته عن المرأة ولا يدري ما حالها ، أيتزوجها الرجل متعة ؟ قال : يتعرض لها ، فإن أجابته إلى الفجور فلا يفعل .

2 – And from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr from `Abdullah b. Ya`fur from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I asked him about the woman whose state is not known, does the man marry her in mut`a? He said: Present (it) to her, and if she responds to him with promiscuity then do not do it.

[ 26435 ] 3 ـ وعن عدة من أصحابنا ، عن أحمد بن محمد البرقي ، عن داود بن إسحاق الحذاء ، عن محمد بن الفيض قال : سألت أبا عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) عن المتعة ؟ قال : نعم ، إذا كانت عارفة ـ إلى أن قال : ـ واياكم والكواشف والدواعي والبغايا وذوات الازواج ، قلت : ما الكواشف ؟ قال : اللواتي يكاشفهن وبيوتهن معلومة ويؤتين ، قلت : فالدواعي ؟ قال : اللواتي يدعون إلى أنفسهن وقد عرفن بالفساد ، قلت : فالبغايا ؟ قال : المعروفات بالزنا ، قلت : فذوات الازواج ؟ قال : المطلقات على غير السنة .

3 – And from a number of our companions from Ahmad b. Muhammad al-Barqi from Dawud b. Ishaq the shoemaker from Muhammad b. al-Fayd. He said: I asked Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام about mut`a. He said: Yes, when she is `arifa – until he said: And beware of the uncoverers and the inviters and the wh.ores and the ones with husbands. I said: What are the uncoverers? He said: Those who are uncovered and their houses are known and come to. I said: So the inviters? He said: Those who invite to themselves and are known with corruption. I said: So the who.res? He said: The ones who are known with fornication. He said: So the ones with husbands? He said: The divorced upon other than the Sunna.

Now, in the encouragement of mut`a being to revive the Sunna, would anyone in their right mind say that going with prostitutes is something from the Sunna?! And make no mistake about it too, prostitution is something clearly that is haram in Islam, with a punishment associated with even “just” arranging it (i.e. pimping):

[ 34483 ] 1 ـ محمد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن محمد بن سليمان ، عن عبدالله بن سنان ، قال : قلت لأبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) : أخبرني عن القواد ما حده ؟ قال : لا حد على القواد ، أليس إنما يعطى الأجر على أن يقود ؟ ! قلت : جعلت فداك ، إنما يجمع بين الذكر والانثى حراما ، قال : ذاك المؤلف بين الذكر والانثى حراما ، فقلت : هو ذاك ، قال : يضرب ثلاثة أرباع حد الزاني خمسة وسبعين سوطا ، وينفى من المصر الذي هو فيه . . الحديث .

1 – Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father [from Salih b. as-Sindi – additional in al-Faqih] from Muhammad b. Sulayman from `Abdullah b. Sinan. He said: I asked Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: Inform me about the procurer (al-qawwad, used for pimp but also means a procurer), what is his hadd? He said: There is no hadd upon the procurer. Is it not that he is only given the wage for what he procures? I said: May I be made your ransom! However, he brings together the male and the female in a haram manner. He said: That is the combiner (al-mu’allif) between the male and the female in a haram manner. So I said: He is that. He said: He is struck with three fourths of the hadd of the fornicator, seventy-five lashings, and he is exiled from the city which he is in (- to the rest of the hadith)

[ 34484 ] 2 ـ قال : وفي خبر آخر : لعن رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) الواصلة والمؤتصلة ـ يعني : الزانية والقوادة في هذا الخبر ـ .

2 – He said: And in another narration: The Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله cursed the connector (al-waasila, fem.) and the connected (al-mu’tasila, fem.) – meaning the fornicatress (i.e. prostitute) and the madam in this report.

Now what about engaging in mut`a when you already have a wife? Now that could be argued either way. Generally it would be considered permissible, though the above recommendation either seem not to apply or at least not be so strong, for example:

[ 26421 ] 2 ـ وعنه ، عن المختار بن محمد بن المختار ، وعن محمد بن الحسن ، عن عبدالله بن الحسن العلوي جميعا ، عن الفتح بن يزيد قال : سألت أبا الحسن ( عليه السلام ) عن المتعة ؟ فقال : هي حلال مباح مطلق لمن لم يغنه الله بالتزويج فليستعفف بالمتعة ، فإن استغنى عنها بالتزويج فهي مباح له إذا غاب عنها .

2 – And from him from al-Mukhtar b. Muhammad b. al-Mukhtar and from Muhammad b. al-Hasan from `Abdullah b. al-Hasan al-`Alawi all from al-Fath b. Yazid. He said: I asked Abu ‘l-Hasan عليه السلام about mut`a. So he said: It is absolutely halal (and) permissible for the one whom Allah has not made him free of need by marriage so he seeks chastity by mut`a. So he is without need of it by marriage, then it is permissible for him if he is absent from her.

See the conditionality of availability of the wife above? So it’s not necessarily just cut and dry, it’s the man’s right and that’s that as some might think it is.

And what about engaging in mut`a with non-Muslim women (which is generally what we’d be talking about here in these societies). Well, if you have a Muslim wife already, you really should think twice about it:

[ 26471 ] 7 ـ محمّد بن عليّ بن الحسين بإسناده عن سعدان ، عن أبي بصير ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : لا تزوجوا اليهودية ولا النصرانية على حرة متعة وغير متعة .

7 – Muhammad b. `Ali b. al-Husayn by his isnad from Sa`dan from Abu Basir from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: Do not marry the Jewish woman nor the Christian woman upon a free woman in mut`a or in other than mut`a.

And then this one about marrying a dhimmi upon (i.e. while you are already married to) a Muslima:

[ 26303 ] 4 ـ محمد بن علي بن الحسين بإسناده عن الحسن بن محبوب ، عن هشام بن سالم ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) في رجل تزوج ذمية على مسلمة قال : يفرق بينهما ويضرب ثمن حد الزاني اثني عشر سوطا ونصفا ، فان رضيت المسلمة ضرب ثمن الحد ولم يفرق بينهما ، قلت : كيف يضرب النصف ؟ قال : يؤخذ السوط بالنصف فيضرب به .

4 – Muhammad b. `Ali b. al-Husayn by his isnad from al-Hasan b. Mahbub from Hisham b. Salim from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام regarding a man who married a dhimmi woman upon a Muslim woman. He said: They are separated and he is struck an eighth of the hadd of the fornicator, twelve and a half lashes. So if the Muslim woman accepts (or, is content) he is struck an eighth of the hadd and they are not separated. I said: How is he struck the half? He said: The lash is taken by the middle (or, the half) and he is struck with it.

Even if you don't have a Muslim wife yet, still going with such non-Muslim women should be something to think twice about considering the many reports that speak against it, which if folks are interested I could go more into in sha Allah, but I think this post is already long enough.

So we see that just with a little bit of looking at the sources, a lot of this stuff can easily be responded to (and minus the need for emotional character assassinations). Key is balance, something I find blatantly missing from most of these discussions on both sides of the argument.

[ImAli]

You really think he was talking about buying a sex slave? I'll let him speak for himself, but somehow I think he was just referring to importing a simple old fashioned girl from the old country.

or a better choice would probably be to just buy a woman from poor countries.

You're in the U.S.right? Spend a few hours looking in the right place with some shady characters and anyone can go buy a teenager (girl or boy) smuggled in from a poor country.....usually tricked and against their will.

Edited May 23, 2012 by ImAli

[kadhim]

You're in the U.S.right? Spend a few hours looking in the right place with some shady characters and anyone can go buy a teenager (girl or boy) smuggled in from a poor country.....usually tricked and against their will.

Well, Canada, actually, but yes, I'm aware of human trafficking. I just think probably he was actually referring to marrying a girl from away and immigrating her over. Guy's English is less an perfect. I somehow doubt he was literally referring to "buying someone." Could of course be mistaken. I don't presume to read minds either way.

[ImAli]

Well, Canada, actually, but yes, I'm aware of human trafficking. I just think probably he was actually referring to marrying a girl from away and immigrating her over. Guy's English is less an perfect. I somehow doubt he was literally referring to "buying someone." Could of course be mistaken. I don't presume to read minds either way.

well I certainly hope you are correct and I read it the wrong way :blink:

[Abu Hadi]

This whole thing about comparing slavery in the time of the Imams vs. now has really gotten out of control.

I have been studying the lives of the Imams as well as history of Islam for more than 10 years now, and here are some of the conclusions I have come to, and I am willing to discuss these points with anyone...

1) Modern Slavery (such as being trafficked for sex or labor) is nothing like slavery was during the time of the Imams.

At that time, there was no such as classification as 'employee' as we understand it today and there were no entities organized under legal codes such as corporations, proprietorships, etc. At that time, you were either in one of three categories.

A) The boss, i.e. a trader with capital who bought and sold goods or a farmer who farmed his land or a herder with a herd of camels or goats or sheep.

B. Worked with your family or tribe under the order and protection of the boss, who was a family member (father, uncle, cousin, etc)

C) A Slave. The person who wasn't the boss and didn't have a family to work with.

There was no such as thing as a 'labor market' where skilled workers could market their skills and have employers compete for them. This was pretty much unknown in Arabia at the time of the Prophet(p.b.u.h) and Imams(a.s). So if you weren't the boss and didn't have a family and tribe to depend on, you were a slave, at the whim of whoever picked you up and decided to use your labor or other services.

If the person was good, you had a decent life. If the person was bad, your life was basically hell on earth.

Now with that background, we can talk about slavery. The Imams(a.s) had slaves and did have female slaves that they purchased. This is not disputed by anyone who knows about hadith. They did this to protect certain women who didn't have a tribe or family to protect them and who were momina. A women or girl at that time who wasn't connected with a tribe (like a captive or refugee) was under severe danger of being harmed and even killed by the Arabs of that time who viewed women who did not have a tribe to protect them as basically fair game for any particular use they wanted to use them for.

The Imams married some of their female slaves and some they bought and set them free with means to live a decent life or they arranged them to be married to other mumin in the community. The point is that they never abused or mistreated their female 'slaves' and in fact they treated the same as they treated their own family members. There are too many authentic hadith to this effect.

So the sort of slavery that we are talking about vis a via our Imams(a.s) has nothing to do with modern slavery, which is a vile business designed to enrich the slavers at the expense of their slaves, which they view only as commodities. Anyone who would support this or do business with these people or who would utilize services that they make available thru their 'slaves' is doing thulm and their behaviour has nothing to do with the behaviour of our Imams(a.s) and they are very ignorant about how our Imams(a.s) lived their lives.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Abu Hadi

[King]

This whole thing about comparing slavery in the time of the Imams vs. now has really gotten out of control.

I have been studying the lives of the Imams as well as history of Islam for more than 10 years now, and here are some of the conclusions I have come to, and I am willing to discuss these points with anyone...

1) Modern Slavery (such as being trafficked for sex or labor) is nothing like slavery was during the time of the Imams.

At that time, there was no such as classification as 'employee' as we understand it today and there were no entities organized under legal codes such as corporations, proprietorships, etc. At that time, you were either in one of three categories.

A) The boss, i.e. a trader with capital who bought and sold goods or a farmer who farmed his land or a herder with a herd of camels or goats or sheep.

B. Worked with your family or tribe under the order and protection of the boss, who was a family member (father, uncle, cousin, etc)

C) A Slave. The person who wasn't the boss and didn't have a family to work with.

There was no such as thing as a 'labor market' where skilled workers could market their skills and have employers compete for them. This was pretty much unknown in Arabia at the time of the Prophet(p.b.u.h) and Imams(a.s). So if you weren't the boss and didn't have a family and tribe to depend on, you were a slave, at the whim of whoever picked you up and decided to use your labor or other services.

If the person was good, you had a decent life. If the person was bad, your life was basically hell on earth.

Now with that background, we can talk about slavery. The Imams(a.s) had slaves and did have female slaves that they purchased. This is not disputed by anyone who knows about hadith. They did this to protect certain women who didn't have a tribe or family to protect them and who were momina. A women or girl at that time who wasn't connected with a tribe (like a captive or refugee) was under severe danger of being harmed and even killed by the Arabs of that time who viewed women who did not have a tribe to protect them as basically fair game for any particular use they wanted to use them for.

The Imams married some of their female slaves and some they bought and set them free with means to live a decent life or they arranged them to be married to other mumin in the community. The point is that they never abused or mistreated their female 'slaves' and in fact they treated the same as they treated their own family members. There are too many authentic hadith to this effect.

So the sort of slavery that we are talking about vis a via our Imams(a.s) has nothing to do with modern slavery, which is a vile business designed to enrich the slavers at the expense of their slaves, which they view only as commodities. Anyone who would support this or do business with these people or who would utilize services that they make available thru their 'slaves' is doing thulm and their behaviour has nothing to do with the behaviour of our Imams(a.s) and they are very ignorant about how our Imams(a.s) lived their lives.

I don't think contemporary discourse on slavery in Islam is focused on how the imams themselves treated their slaves, rather as it happens to be with mutah etc, it is focused on what islamic law permits. If you step away from the Imams themselves, other muslims for centuries did take advantage of the slavery laws and treated their slaves differently, all acceptable under the framework of sharia, it is this very framework that is at the heart of the slavery debate.

[kadhim]

Food for thought, Abu Hadi, though I'd want to check with an economic historian about some of the details, such as the question of whether there were independent employees or contractors who sold their service on the labour market. I would imagine in big cities like Baghdad, Damascas, there must have been something of the sort. After all, how would you arrange the labour for temporary large projects such as building roads, or putting up a grand masjid, or palace, or that sort of thing. Must've been floating independent labourer-contractors.

Anyhoo, that's a tangent in this thread, but, overall, food or thought.

[Gepetto_Zapata]

How about this Ayatullah (in the proper sense of the word)?

3 – And by his isnad from al-Hasan b. Mahbub from Ishaq b. Jarir. He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: Verily in Kufa there is a woman with us who is known for promiscuity. Is it allowed to marry her in mut`a? He said: So he said: Did she raise a standard? I said: No, had she raised a standard the Sultan would have arrested her. He said: Yes, marry her in mut`a. He said: Then he listened to one of his slaves (or, supporters, or, clients) and confided something to him. So I met his slave and said to him: What did he say to you? So he said: He only said to me: Even if she had raised a standard there would not be anything against the marriage. It only takes her out from a haram to a halal.

Chapter on the non-forbiddance of doing mut`a with a fornicatress even if she persists in it

It's cute how you try and validate your points by bringing up hadeeth from every corner... I thought illogical hadeeths that went against the Qu'raan should be thrown against a wall, as per Imam Jaa'far Al-Sadeq s... You'd dig up stuff to make murder halal even if it has to do something with your ego, in this situation just to make it look right when someone you admire is decorating the fact that they undignified themselves, and probably still are, as low as having one night stands with w'hores who have were bedded by no less than 5 different paying losers, and more to come for the next day... People who think things like this are right or okay to do need psychiatric help... They have a problem, as in sick, nothing to be ashamed of... Isn't a major pillar of our deen / humanity "Self-Control"? I seriously cannot pin-point what your issues are... Sad... If you want to go to prostitutes, no one's judging, it's your business, but trying to convince others that it's halaal / recommended, now that's just low... No wonder people think we're hypocrites, Islam had been, and is still being defaced by you and your likes... Just give it a rest...

Peace...

But anyway I dont need to have multiple people writing posts about all my many shortcomings so - I am out.

Did you honestly think coming in here would not be a waste of time? There's no way with them, they have already created a separate deen they follow and are steafast in their beliefs... I guess I'll call it Shi'aah-Wahhabism, or no that's still too nice a name... Hmmm dunno...

[alimohamad40]

salaam

Unfortunately Because am working too many hours these days I cant read things properly.

I had a quick scan and we should focus on the topics of disagreement and forget about the characters and who said what .

I advise the people of the opposing belief to do the same.... as imam ali said " truth is not marked by individuals ,,,, "

" listen to what is being said rather than who is saying it"

the paragraph that was taken out of context and misudnerstood which i wanted to clarify is:

If i had money it will be a religious obligation and Duty on me to hire prostitutes for mut3a all the time or a better choice would probably be to just buy a woman from poor countries.

I am talking about a situation of facing potential sin due to the lack of marriage or falling into sins, which makes the muta with prostitute a lesser of two evils.

Its allowed but makrooh but the potential sins of watching nudity or other marriage related sins are actually haraam so any sane person would chose makrooh over haraam if thats thier only reaklistic choices.

You are religiously prohibited to forsake a makrooh which saves you from haraam .

When I said "all the time" I wasnt encouraging people to do the makrooh excessively but I was referring to it being a regular alterantive solution at all the times that you face such situations. i.e. everytime you are at risk of sommiting haraam ...

I dont agree with excessivenes in anything and thats one of the reasons i disagree with nicknames like muta king if they would give the meaning of excessiveness in muta.

I am talking about needs here and not about excess and israf (wastage).

When I talked about a better choice being buying a girl from a poor country i am not referring to human trafficking and abuse and deciet and lies and all these false accusations....

My point was

That ideally I wanted marriage with wife/wives where our ideologies are in harmony and hence a good match but the situation didnt offer that ideal so the less ideal was to go for materialistic women and to me materialistic women are bought not married .

this is my openion but i can explain it .......

A woman whom you can only win her heart by buying her an expensive diamond ring or a huge dowry, a brand bag or whatever. are you really marrying her or buying her ???? or bribing? you make your own choice......

I say buying because a human who only looks for materialistic things can be bought by those materials.

So I was poor and couldnt afford to buy/bribe any materialistic girl from the rich countries (as thier demands are high and i wanted to minimize the wastage) so I said buy from the poor country

My idea by the word BUY is to highlight the frustration about the lack of the ideal female match who would ideologically be in harmouny with what i belived islam is about and hence I have to resort to the less ideal situation in order to save myself from bigger sins by either indulging in makrooh or buying (the superficial materialistic marriage).

so how did this turn into a human trafficking ring i dont know???

Lebanese princes is and example of the type of people that value materalism highly and thats why she labeled herself a princess because she enjoys the egotistical

self centered feeling that boosts the ego and fills the emptiness.

Not only that but also she is suffering from another self vice related to the selfishness and self centrism which is prioritising the nationalist identity..

She opened a topic where she was saying different women envy her so I tried to address her problem and told her to stop boasting and showing off so they would stop envying you and harming you ,,,, She took offense and went digging to find stuff to discredit me

I strongly belive that lebanese perinces and the group that support her have problems but they dont see the problems so I try to argue it point by point inshallah but they take offense quickly thinking i want to harm them and not save them from harm !!!!!

regarding sister tranquility:

she had put and invented and unsilamic marriage criteria which was:

men should stay single between the age of puberty (13-15) until they get permenant marriage at 20 or 30 or whatever because that will mean the wife will be the first and last woman in his life !!!!

she said it exactly like this:

"it was worth it suppressing his needs for a few years to feel heaven-like life with a first and last woman in his life". many men married at age 25 or more for the first time and are not gay

she was advocating men supress thier desires for many years (few years she says but for many people permamant marriage is only coming after decades)

That they should practice celibacy in order to satisfy her jealousy and accomodate with the victorian ideal.

I rejected the advocating of celibacy just like I reject the celibacy of the catholic prists and the actions resultign from that.

Islam clearly prohibits celibacy and never tells you to avoid marriage for any reason let alone for the ugliest reason so that your jealuos future wife will be the only one in your life ever !!! ( what about if another woman needed you?? what if you are afraid from potential sin? what about promoting maroof by practising abandeoned sunnahs? NO dont do your wajib but only satisfy your jealuos wife)

In order for your jealous wife to be the first and last one in your life you have to actually go and commit haraam acts and go to hell instead because if you end up in heaven you will have heaps of virgin hoor al 3een as promised in the quraan which will make her furious?

what will the jelaous wife do then if you made it to heaven? start conspiracies agianst you in heaven??? No because she wont even be there to begin with because thats not the place for the humans who challange god after they have recived the knowledge and they got certain of it. .

so I was telling sister tranquility that by setting such anti islamic criteria for spouse selection the girl would be digging her own grave because any normal man at the age of 30 who claims that he never attempted to get married and it never bothered him and that his situation is ideal then he is one of the following,

1) a liar who has many problems but is discrete about them

2) a sinner who doesnt need marriage as he has no problem with forincation and/or other curruptions

3) an unhealthy human who has a very low desire

so why would you make such people your preference??

It was long time ago and maybe if she comes she would have tasted the bitterness and admits the reaslity after the exposure...

there was a similar case of a girl who was approached by a 30 years old who said " no we dont practise muta" when he was told to do muta in order to talk to her!!!!

he also claimed that he never was married before and the same nonsense lies that foolish women like to hear

after many years things got exposed

any way

salaam for now

[alimohamad40]

Ismahan its been a while I wanted to tell you that you are one of the worst if not the worst when it comes to

arrogance

hypcorisy

compound ignorance

incompetence

and many other bad traits

You have to work to eradicate these problems otherwise they will grow and get dangerous and destroy your life...

I dont even want to go into discussing your ideology and your countless contradictions but one example i want to give you which might make you think:

On one side you support yaser alhabeeb and on another side you support western femenism ??? how on earth can you combine those two ?

yaser alhabeeb was saying " umar is gay thats why he opposed muta because he loved sodomy"

so do you agree with yaser on this or umar??

[~Zee Zee~]

I am very shocked at your response and very disgusted. Your assumptions about me are quite wrong. Instead of addressing the matter, you are now picking at my user name. Really? Many other girls have user names with Princess in them and of course you have the Mutah_King who's obviously picked that name as a joke. And there are many people who have the name of their country in their username.But that doesn't mean we are egotistical. It's simply a user name. Your attacks are cheap just like your statements about women. The way of your thinking is very childish. And once again your abusive and accusing nature, and your arrogance has risen. I don't know whether to feel ashamed for you or sorry. The only reason why you think I "dug" up this thread to get revenge, is because that is exactly something you would do to others.. You are making assumptions of others based on your jaded reflection. I do recall making a thread about hasad, because I was asking about auras in Islam, and if they had something to do with hasad. You are the one that brought this topic up now, and you have exposed yourself even more, as I did not even recall your comment. But since you brought it up , you must be feeling guilt or something. Here is the topic and your quote is below : .

When u call urself princess and brag it comes with a price.

U enjoy being envied just until it harms u then u whinge

Some people that i trust say they can see the sura of others but god knows best

So I take it must have been replaying in your consciousness for a long time now as you probably felt bad for saying that, as you would have not brought it up now. Because Wallhie I forgot you even said such a thing, and Allah is my witness. But thank you for exposing yourself even more today, and revealing how rude you truly are.

As I said before I came across this thread by accident just as many others before me have come across old threads. But you keep suspecting and twisting up words and making assumption. There is a God after all, and that God is not you. Salam

[alimohamad40]

^^

irrelavant

I took a guess at why you have dug up an old thread and I might have got it wrong but what has that got to do with the statements I made about your problems ?

your choice of nicknames reflects your ideology no?

even your slogan is implying that your allways right !!!!! what makes you think you are allways right and is arrogance and self praise a good thing ?

its a joke ? yes we know but only specific people joke this way...

answer the topics of discussion,, It doesnt surbrize me that your posts are empty of content...

we have a few clear issues at hand

1) promoting celibacy for males between puberty and 20 or 30

2) permissibility of muta with prostitute

3) slave human trafficking and so on

4) anti islamic spouse selection criteria

5) excessiveness

6) prioritizing national identity

7) ego centrism and supremacy superiosirty complexes

please add some content to the topic, i showed you the topics at hand

salaam

Edited May 24, 2012 by alimohamad40

[~Zee Zee~]

[Guest Inaya]

Salaam,

I just tried to read 8 pages of nonsense. Man, you people are stubborn. It doesn't seem like the two parties here are ever going to agree with eachother. The comments to eachother are anything except nice, and they don't even make sense half of the time :/

Why do people get so stressed out about what is said by someone on the internet. If you don't agree, you can try to discuss it nicely, even if you don't like the persons mindset you're debating with. But this is just crazy and getting too personal and a bit childish. Come on man, it's just a forum.

Everyone has different opinions on things, and some opinions will never change. Seems rather pointless into keep going through the same discussion that is getting uglier and uglier with every comment.

ws