Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
ShiaChat.com
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

The Burial Of Fatimah Bint Asad

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

As-Salam Alaykum

When Fatimah, the mother Ali (ra), died, the Prophet (saws) blessed her and praised her and called on Umar ibn al-Khattab, Usamah ibn Zayd and a servant (ra) to dig her grave. He also helped. After the grave was dug he lied in the grave and prayed for her. Then he, Abu Bakr (ra) and al-Abbas (ra) placed her in the grave. This was narrated by al-Tabrani in al-Kabir and al-Awsat, and Abu Nu'aym in al-Hilyah, and ibn al-Jawzi and others. The chain is sound according to al-Hakim and ibn Hibban.

Does this not show Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra) were close companions and lovers of the Ahl al-Bayt? Abu Bakr in a tradition in Bukhari said to Ali (ra) he loves the Prophet's household more than his own family.

Link to post
Share on other sites
As-Salam Alaykum

When Fatimah, the mother Ali (ra), died, the Prophet (saws) blessed her and praised her and called on Umar ibn al-Khattab, Usamah ibn Zayd and a servant (ra) to dig her grave. He also helped. After the grave was dug he lied in the grave and prayed for her. Then he, Abu Bakr (ra) and al-Abbas (ra) placed her in the grave. This was narrated by al-Tabrani in al-Kabir and al-Awsat, and Abu Nu'aym in al-Hilyah, and ibn al-Jawzi and others. The chain is sound according to al-Hakim and ibn Hibban.

Does this not show Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra) were close companions and lovers of the Ahl al-Bayt? Abu Bakr in a tradition in Bukhari said to Ali (ra) he loves the Prophet's household more than his own family.

By the way this was narrated by the close servant of the Prophet (saws) Anas ibn Malik (ra).

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

OK, I see now. Bring the hadith of Abu Bakr saying that you can't just say something with no proof. As for the burial it doesn't prove nothing much, they had the honor of digging the grave of Fatimah doesn't make them all of a sudden make them the best after the Prophet (saww).

Link to post
Share on other sites
OK, I see now. Bring the hadith of Abu Bakr saying that you can't just say something with no proof. As for the burial it doesn't prove nothing much, they had the honor of digging the grave of Fatimah doesn't make them all of a sudden make them the best after the Prophet (saww).

But it does show they were close to him and were not an exclusive group as the shia make out. Abu bakr and Umar (ra) loved the Ahl al-Bayt and they were all one and united, as this beauiful tradition shows.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

do you have more precise reference than books (such as page numbers, hadith numbers, etc.)? I could say it's in Bukhari that the sky is purple, and if the person I tell doesn't have the book, hasn't read the thing from start to finish, and know EVERY bit of content, the thing I say may be true or false, but there's no way to disprove it... bring SPECIFICS, please, so ti can be verified or refuted

Link to post
Share on other sites
do you have more precise reference than books (such as page numbers, hadith numbers, etc.)? I could say it's in Bukhari that the sky is purple, and if the person I tell doesn't have the book, hasn't read the thing from start to finish, and know EVERY bit of content, the thing I say may be true or false, but there's no way to disprove it... bring SPECIFICS, please, so ti can be verified or refuted

Yes there are volume and page numbers in Shaykh Mamduh's work, raf al-Minarah, http://www.frzdqi.net/bhooth/rafa.htm.

They are:

Al-Tabrani in al-Kabir 24:352 hadith number 871

Al-Tabrani in al-Awsat 1:152

Abu Nu'aym in al-Hilyah 3:121

Ibn al-Jawzi in al-Ilal al-Mutanahiyyah 1:268

The specific segment of Raf' is:

قال الطبراني ÙÙŠ المعجم الكبير (24/352 حديث) رقم (871) :

حدثنا أحمد بن حماد بن زغبة ØŒ ثنا روح بن صلاح ØŒ ثنا سÙيان الثوري ØŒ عن عاصم الأحول ØŒ عن أنس بن مالك قال : لما ماتت Ùاطمة بنت أسد بن هاشم أم علي بن أبي طالب دخل عليها رسول الله (ص) Ùجلس عند رأسها Ùقال :

((رحمك الله يا أمي كنت أمي بعد أمي ØŒ تجوعين وتشبعيني وتعرين وتكسيني وتمنعين Ù†Ùسك طيباً وتطعميني، تريدين بذلك وجه الله والدار الآخرة ))ØŒ ثم أمر أن تغسل ثلاثاً ØŒ Ùلما بلغ الماء الذي Ùيه الكاÙور سكبه رسول الله (ص) بيده ثم خلع رسول الله (ص) قميصه Ùألبسها إياه وكÙنها ببرد Ùوقه، ثم دعا رسول الله (ص) أسامة بن زيد وأبا أيوب الأنصاري وعمر بن الخطاب وغلاماً أسود يحÙرون، ÙØ­Ùروا قبرها، Ùلما بلغوا اللحد Ø­Ùره رسول الله (ص) بيده وأخرج ترابه بيده ØŒ Ùلما Ùرغ دخل رسول الله (ص) Ùاضطجع Ùيه ثم قال : (( الله الذي يحيي ويميت وهو حي لا يموت اغÙر لأمي Ùاطمة بنت أسد ولقنها حجتها ØŒ ووسع عليها مدخلها بحق نبيك والأنبياء الذين من قبلي Ùإنك أرحم الراحمين )) ØŒ وكبر عليها أربعاً وأدخلوها اللحد هو والعباس ØŒ وأبو بكر الصديق رضي الله عنهما .

ورواه من هذا الوجه الطبراني ÙÙŠ الأوسط ( 1 / 152) ØŒ ومن طريقه أبونعيم ÙÙŠ الحلية ( 3 / 121 ) ØŒ وابن الجوزي ÙÙŠ العلل المتناهية ( 1 / 268 ) .

وهو حديث حسن .

قال الهيثمي ÙÙŠ مجمع الزوائد ( 9 / 257 ) : رواه الطبراني ÙÙŠ الكبير والأوسط ØŒ ÙˆÙيه روح بن صلاح وثقة ابن حبان ØŒ والحاكم ØŒ ÙˆÙيه ضع٠وبقية رجاله رجال الصحيح . اهـ .

قلت : شيخ الطبراني أحمد بن حماد بن زغبة ثقة ØŒ من شيوخ النسائي ØŒ ولم يخرج له ÙÙŠ الصحيح .

أما روح بن صلاح Ùقد اختل٠Ùيه Ùوثقه قوم وضعÙÙ‡ آخرون Ùمثله يحتاج لإعمال النظر لبيان حاله .

Ùقال عنه الحاكم ÙÙŠ سؤالات السجزي : ثقة مأمون .

وذكره ابن حبان ÙÙŠ الثقات (8/244 ) .

وروى عنه يعقوب بن سÙيان الÙسوي ÙÙŠ المعرÙØ© والتاريخ (3/406) Ùهو ثقة عنده ØŒ قال الÙسوي (التهذيب : 11 /378 ) : كتبت عن أل٠شيخ وكسر كلهم ثقات . اهـ .

أما من جرحه Ùلم يذكر سبب جرحه ولم ÙŠÙسره .

ÙÙÙŠ المؤتل٠والمختل٠للدارقطني (3/1377 ) قال : روح بن صلاح ابن سيابه يروي عن ابن لهيعة وعن الثوري وغيرهما كان ضعيÙاً ÙÙŠ الحديث سكن مصر . اهـ .

ومثله لابن ماكولا ÙÙŠ الإكمال (5/15) وابن عدي ÙÙŠ الكامل (3/1005).

وهذا جرح مبهم ØŒ غير Ù…Ùسر ØŒ Ùيرد ÙÙŠ مقابل التعديل المذكور قبله

كما هو مقرر

مثاله قول الحاÙظ ÙÙŠ مقدمة الÙتح (ص 437 ) ÙÙŠ ترجمة ( محمد بن بشار بن بندار) ضعÙÙ‡ عمرو بن علي الÙلاس، ولم يذكر سبب ذلك، Ùما عرجوا على تجريحه . اهـ .

وادعى الألباني(1) أن الجرح Ù…Ùسر ÙÙŠ روح بن صلاح بقول ابن يونس: رويت عنه مناكير ØŒ وبقول ابن عدي ÙÙŠ الكامل : ÙÙŠ بعض حديثه نكرة .

قلت : كلام الألباني Ùيه نظر يظهر ÙÙŠ الوجهين الآتيين :

الأول : عبارتي ابن يونس ، وابن عدي لا تدلان على الجرح .

قال : ابن دقيق العيد ÙÙŠ "شرح الإلمام" كما ÙÙŠ "نصب الراية" (1/179) ØŒ "Ùتح المغيث" (1/347) : قولهم "روى مناكير" لا تقتضي بمجرده ترك روايته حتى تكثر المناكير ÙÙŠ روايته وينتهي أن يقال Ùيه "منكر الحديث" ØŒ لأن منكر الحديث وص٠ÙÙŠ الرجل يستحق به الترك لحديثه . اهـ .

الثاني : قولهم : "روى المناكير" ØŒ أو "رويت عنه المناكير" ليس أيضاً من الجرح ÙÙŠ شيء ØŒ Ùقد تكون تلك المنكرات من شيوخه أو من الرواة عنه وهو روى شيئاً تحمله Ùقط .

قال الحاكم للدار قطني ( السؤالات 217- 218 ) : سليمان ابن شرحبيل ، قال : ثقة ، قلت : أليس عنده مناكير ، قال : يحدث بها عن

قوم ضعÙاء . اهـ .

Ùما كل من روى المناكير ضعي٠عندهم .

وعندما ترجم ابن عدي لروح بن صلاح ÙÙŠ كامله (3/1005 _1006 ) روى عنه حديثين ØŒ الآÙØ© والحمل Ùيهما من الراوي عن روح بن صلاح .

وعادة ابن عدي ÙÙŠ كامله كما يقول الحاÙظ ÙÙŠ مقدمة الÙتح ( ص429 ) : أن يخرج الأحاديث التي أنكرت على الثقة أو على غير الثقة Ùلو وجد ابن عدي شيئاً أنكر على روح بن صلاح لأتى به ÙÙŠ ترجمته ولكنه خرج ما حدث به وكان منكراً ØŒ ولكن الحمل Ùيه على غيره .

Ùتدبر

(which also shows it is atleast hasan)

Link to post
Share on other sites

The full hadith translation is:

Al-Tabrani said in al-Mu‘jam al-Kabir:

Ahmad ibn Hammad ibn Zaghbah narrated to us: Rawh ibn Salah narrated: Sufyan al-Thawri narrated from ‘Asim al-Ahwal from Anas ibn Malik (that) he said:

“When Fatimah bint Asad ibn Hashim, the mother of ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib, died, the Messenger of Allah entered upon her and sat next to her head and said:

‘Allah bless you my mother, you were my mother after my mother, you were hungry and you nourished me, you were naked and you clothed me, you withheld yourself good and you fed me, seeking thereby the Countenance of Allah and the Final Abode’

He then ordered (that) she be bathed thrice. When the water which contained camphor was sent, the Messenger of Allah (saws) poured it with his hand, then the Messenger of Allah (saws) took off his shirt and put it on her and he enshrouded her with a garment (from) above him. Then the Messenger of Allah (saws) summoned Usamah ibn Zayd, Abu Ayyub al-Ansari, ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab and a servant, Aswad, to dig, so they dug her grave. When they reached the sepulchre, the Messenger of Allah (saws) dug it with his hand and took out its dust with his hand. When he had finished the Messenger of Allah (saws) entered (into it) and lied therein and then said:

‘Allah is He who gives life and causes to die and He is Eternal and does not die. Forgive my mother Fatimah bint Asad, and teach her her proof, and expand her her entryway, through the right of Your Prophet and the Prophets before me for You are the Most Compassionate’

He magnified (Allah) over her four (times) and they entered her into the sepulchre, he, al-‘Abbas and Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, Allah be pleased with them.â€

Edited by MuhammadSalih
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

thanks, insha'Allah someone familiar with Arabic, and the site, might give further insight. though in a very cursory google search, I notice that the overwhleming majority of sites that come up with these books/references are sunni and not shia... but I admit I could be missing something in my search.

Link to post
Share on other sites
thanks, insha'Allah someone familiar with Arabic, and the site, might give further insight. though in a very cursory google search, I notice that the overwhleming majority of sites that come up with these books/references are sunni and not shia... but I admit I could be missing something in my search.

Yes they are Sunni, but even shia quote the narrations from these books although they miss out the details (e.g. http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/25.htm - go last segment). These narrations are sound and they show Abu bakr and Umar (ra) played an active role in the life of the Prophet's family and were with them then and forever in Paradise.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

can you prove from SHIA sources that they were present at Fatima bint Asad's (ra) funeral.

and can you prove from SHIA sources that Abu Bakr and Umar are in paradise???

I'm afraid, now I'm going to have to insist that you prove your claims, that you seem to think are accepted by ALL sides as ABSOLUTE FACT, from shia aources (at least sources that are accepted by both shias and sunnis), because frankly, showing sunni beliefs from sunni sources and saying "they're proof for us, therefore you must accept them as proof too" is not cutting it in this forum. Failure to bring proof when asked for it, or making claims you cannot back up, is grounds for disciplinary action to be initiated.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

an addendum to the above post of mine. Only when explaining your own (sects) beliefs, is it sufficient to use your own sources. Otherwise, one should strive to use either sources that are MUTUALLY acceptable (like Qur'an) or sources that are proof for the party you are talking to trying to convince of your (sects) correctness in a matter.

Link to post
Share on other sites

salamun alaykum all i also dont believe in most hadiths from the "fallibles" ..and brother MS, just becuz one had done good deeds in their past doesnt necessarily mean he will endure a good future as well...for example the story of Abu Jehal, the uncle of Prophet, im guessing in his early life he did ATLEAST 1 good thing for Muhammed's fam, but look how his future turned out.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
As-Salam Alaykum

Does this not show Abu Bakr (ra) and Umar (ra) were close companions and lovers of the Ahl al-Bayt? Abu Bakr in a tradition in Bukhari said to Ali (ra) he loves the Prophet's household more than his own family.

Brother, Shiah do not have problem with Omar when the prophet was alive (pbuh) . We have problem with him after the prophet (pbuh) died. And the events that took place. It does not matter whether he was close to prophet (pbuh) or not. It is what he did after the death of prophet (pbuh) that matters to shia more? when he no longer had a prophet beside him to tell him what is right or wrong.

So shia brothers. Do not argue with such things. I am a strong shia and I know that Umar and Abu Bakr did serve the prophet well. the main Difference between shia and sunnis is laid after the death of the prophet.

Edited by mshoari
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
but Umar was also doing things during the lifetime of the Prophet (pbuh) (if you're unfamiliar, perhaps search about the 'tragedy of thursday'. It wasn't the only thing, but it's one of the worst.)

This only complicate the whole issue. We might have done things like him if we lived in the time of prophet. Umar was not Infallible. So saying he said third and done that in the time of prophet is childish and not a good intellectual argument. Prophet (pbuh) sometimes said good thing about Umar and Abu Bakr. So arguments like this are like a never ending Tog-o-War. You say Umar did this and Sunnies say well prophet said this about him. It will never end and will only fuel hated and difference.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
This only complicate the whole issue. We might have done things like him if we lived in the time of prophet. Umar was not Infallible. So saying he said third and done that in the time of prophet is childish and not a good intellectual argument. Prophet (pbuh) sometimes said good thing about Umar and Abu Bakr. So arguments like this are like a never ending Tog-o-War. You say Umar did this and Sunnies say well prophet said this about him. It will never end and will only fuel hated and difference.

This is really a childish argument.

Are you suggesting we should speak "good" of Umar and Abu Bakr, the murderers of Lady Fatema (SA) for 'unity', especially 'good' which doesn't exists and overlook important facts? If yes, why speak of it in the first place? Might as well, keep quiet rather than speaking good of these men for "unity".

Edited by SpIzo
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
This is really a childish argument.

Are you suggesting we should speak "good" of Umar and Abu Bakr, the murderers of Lady Fatema (SA) for 'unity', especially 'good' which doesn't exists and overlook important facts? If yes, why speak of it in the first place? Might as well, keep quiet rather than speaking good of these men for "unity".

Brother I was talking about the time when prophet (pbuh) was alive. Not after that. If you want to have a never ending argument then be my guest. It is a waste of time.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Brother I was talking about the time when prophet (pbuh) was alive. Not after that. If you want to have a never ending argument then be my guest. It is a waste of time.

It's a sister here.

Brother, but the usurpers were upto their tricks while the Prophet (S) was still alive! Why shouldn't we be discussing that?

If your point is valid, then why discuss history AT ALL?

It doesn't make sense if we refrain from discussing the actions of these men when the Prophet (S) was still alive because of the reason that it will fan hatred, when it is "permissible" to discuss what these men did after the Prophet's (S) death. According to you, if we discuss what they did after the Prophet's (S) death, it will not 'fuel the fire' and 'complicate things' as you put it?

It's not about having never-ending arguments. These arguments are never going to end till Imam al-Mahdi (ATF) reappears as it is. But it is about discussing history which does affect our beliefs.

Edited by SpIzo
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...