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In the Name of God بسم الله

Ye Musharraf Ka Pakistan Hey!


Abuzar

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As if the Hafsa drama in Islamabad wasn't enough, now hear this:

Hamara Manshoor-e Hameeda

  1. Pakistan mein Taliban tarz-e-hukumat ka qayaam amal mein lana
  2. Amir ul Momineen Hazrat Mulla Umar ka mission aur afkaar-e Jhangvi shaheed ki tarveej karna
  3. Yahud o Nasara ka aur ahl-e-Tashayyu ka iss arz-e-pak se khatma karna, kyunkay ahl-e-Tashayyu as'haab-e-karaam aur ummuhat ul momineen k gustaakh hein aur ulama-e-Deoband k muttafiqa fatway ki ru se ye log wajib-ul-qatl hein.In ka qitaal wajib hey aur in ki izat o namoos ko nuqsaan pohnchana baais-e-sawaab hey
  4. Iss mulk mein murawwaj tamaam bida'at aur ghair sharai rusumaat ka khatima karna khwah iss k liye fidai hamley kyun na karna parein
  5. Amreeka aur uss k hawarion k khilaaf Quraan o Sunnat ki ru sey ta-hayaat jihad fi sabeel-Illah aur zururat parney par fidayeen hamley
  6. Tamaam musalmaan khususan naujawan nasl ko jihad ki taleemat se rushanas karana aur un ki tarbiyat karna, Islami nazariyaat se bakhabar rakhna aur fidayeen hamley k liye tayyaar karna
  7. Barelvi maktab-e-fikr ki islaah aur unn ki jumla murawwija bida'at aur Shia-nawazi ki rok thaam aur islaah

Minjanib:

Taliban Tehreek Pakistan

Millat e Islamia Pakistan

Zer-e-Sarparasti:

Amir ul Momineen Hazrat Mulla Umar da'am jalalatuhu wa da'am barakatuhu, Faateh Afghanistan

Hazrat Qari Khalil Siraj, Muhtamim, Siraj ul Uloom, Dera Ismail Khan

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This is not just a result of Busharraf, it is also a result of so many Pakistanis colloborating with Busharraf, and supporting him... including many Shias. There will always be a response to oppression, it can be reactionary and wrong headed like the Taleban type, or it can be that which Imam Khomeini taught ---- the choice for the leadership of the various Islamic movements to make... by staying silent, collobrating with the likes of Busharraf has left the field wide open for Taleban types to step in.

Edited by skylight1
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This is not just a result of Busharraf, it is also a result of so many Pakistanis colloborating with Busharraf, and supporting him... including many Shias. There will always be a response to oppression, it can be reactionary and wrong headed like the Taleban type, or it can be that which Imam Khomeini taught ---- the choice for the leadership of the various Islamic movements to make... by staying silent, collobrating with the likes of Busharraf has left the field wide open for Taleban types to step in.

What is needed is a strong secular democracy. Period. Any Islamic movement will turn fascist.

Edited by Rawshni
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This is not just a result of Busharraf, it is also a result of so many Pakistanis colloborating with Busharraf, and supporting him... including many Shias. There will always be a response to oppression, it can be reactionary and wrong headed like the Taleban type, or it can be that which Imam Khomeini taught ---- the choice for the leadership of the various Islamic movements to make... by staying silent, collobrating with the likes of Busharraf has left the field wide open for Taleban types to step in.
What is needed is a strong secular democracy. Period. Any Islamic movement will turn fascist.

In Pakistan any 'Islamic' movement will be by the majority and, therefore, in Taliban's ignorant style, so I agree that from a Shi'a viewpoint a "strong secular democracy" is preferable to any so-called Islamic government. Otherwise be ready for more of what is happening in Islamabad, Dera Ismail Khan and Tank -- much of it specifically targeted at Shi'a Muslims. Hypocrite Musharraf's 'enlightened moderation' or ' real democracy' didn't and won't come to our help.

We are a minority in Pakistan. Despite Shi'as being the largest single group in Lebanon, and despite Hezbullah's close following of the path of wilayat-e-faqih, even they have supported secular democracy, realising the multi-denominational nature of their country.

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^

While I agree with most of what you have said, isn't there just a probability that the Shia may be the single largest denomination if various and sundry denominations of "muslims" weren't all lumped together against the Shia as one homogenous whole.

Just curious about your views.

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^

While I agree with most of what you have said, isn't there just a probability that the Shia may be the single largest denomination if various and sundry denominations of "muslims" weren't all lumped together against the Shia as one homogenous whole.

Just curious about your views.

We are digressing here from the topic, which is literally a life and death issue for Shi'as in Pakistan.

Anyway, basing our guess on the generally thrown-about figure of 20% Muslims worldwide being Shi'a, I feel that while it is not beyond possibility that of the rest no sub-group reaches its one-fourth (i.e. equal to Shi'as) but perhaps improbable. As far as the Indo-Pak sub-continent and India and Pakistan separately are concerned, Barelvis are the largest denomination, though educated Sunnis are now leaving this denomination in droves due to its extreme lack of logic. And it is sad that they are attaracted to the relative "logic" of Wahabis rather than absolute logic of AhleBait (as) because many of those who 'adorn' our minbars very 'ably' repel them from Shi'ism.

Also, while your hypothesis has a strong theoretical basis, in practice prejudice of Shi'as is such a strong factor (see point 7 in initial post) that many non-Shi'a denominations that are otherwise at each others' throats, unite to oppose, and even apostatize, Shi'as.

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(salam)

We are digressing here from the topic, which is literally a life and death issue for Shi'as in Pakistan.

Anyway, basing our guess on the generally thrown-about figure of 20% Muslims worldwide being Shi'a, I feel that while it is not beyond possibility that of the rest no sub-group reaches its one-fourth (i.e. equal to Shi'as) but perhaps improbable. As far as the Indo-Pak sub-continent and India and Pakistan separately are concerned, Barelvis are the largest denomination, though educated Sunnis are now leaving this denomination in droves due to its extreme lack of logic. And it is sad that they are attaracted to the relative "logic" of Wahabis rather than absolute logic of AhleBait (as) because many of those who 'adorn' our minbars very 'ably' repel them from Shi'ism.

Also, while your hypothesis has a strong theoretical basis, in practice prejudice of Shi'as is such a strong factor (see point 7 in initial post) that many non-Shi'a denominations that are otherwise at each others' throats, unite to oppose, and even apostatize, Shi'as.

My tuppence regarding this issue:

I find myself in complete agreement with you so far as the prejudice against Shias in every day practice is concerned, as well as members of various non-Shia ganging up against Shias.

My reason for advocating a strong secular democracy is far above mere tactical or strategic. My opposition to any self-styled "Islamic" movement headed by a non-m'aasoom is philosophical, ethical and moral.

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(salam)

(salam)

My tuppence regarding this issue:

I find myself in complete agreement with you so far as the prejudice against Shias in every day practice is concerned, as well as members of various non-Shia ganging up against Shias.

My reason for advocating a strong secular democracy is far above mere tactical or strategic. My opposition to any self-styled "Islamic" movement headed by a non-m'aasoom is philosophical, ethical and moral.

I know and understand your reason for opposing any Islamic government until zahur of our Imam (af), and I respect your right to it.

I oppose non-pious, unjust and ignorant "Islamic" movements like the Taliban, but feel that when the Imam (af) is amongst us there won't be a sudden switching to a just Islamic government (where all those helping Imam (af) run it will still be fallible), but that a vanguard government run by fallible momineen who are knowledgeable and just (within limitations of fallibility) will already have laid groundwork for the perfect Islamic government of the Imam (af) that will "fill the earth with justice". May Allah hasten the appearance of our Imam (af) and the just government led by him.

her ghoomi khopri ko musharraf ke sir thoop do :dry:

Agar hakim-e-waqt ki zimmedari naheen k logon ki jaan, maal, izzat, aabroo ki hifazat karey, tau kya Natthu halwai se shikayat karein?

Musharraf's impotence at best, and collusion at worst, in the acts of Hafsa and DIK are very good bases to thoap it on him!

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Pakistan does not have any secular democratic movement that could even remotely address the country's problems. The secularists are, and have been in collusion with Musharraf's enlightenment - and have even further ruined the country. I could understand if there was secularists like, say, Hugo Chavez who was leading the opposition --- but what you have is Benazir, and her type leading it... and her kind will take the country even further down the drain. The more the country goes down the drain, the worse the reaction will be.

I don't think folks understand the level of desperation many many Pakistanis are beginning to feel --- I don't have concrete answers with regards to what Shi'as should do --- but am only pointing out that oppression always leads to a response. And at this time, many are turning to taleban types of "Islam" - as a reaction, because many do see secularism as having totally failed the country.

However, if there is no attempt to educate the population about Islam (and I don't just mean sectarian Shi'a stuff that I see propogated on Shi'a chat so much) - but true anti-sectarian Islam - such that Imam Khomeini talked about, if there is no attempt to propogate that Islam - and only "solution" that Shi'as have to offer in Pakistan is yet more secularism (with no leadership on the horizon, and basically more of the same) - well, yes, that means Shi'as are going to be in serious trouble.

However, the present situation cannot and will not continue in Pakistan for too long - and Shi'as minority, or not - have a role to play, and I don't mean a role of collusion with unprincipled secularists.

(I will say, that some of the liberals who have rallied around the Chief Justice are principled, but beyond re-instatement of the CJ, they too have no vision for Pakistan's future).

Edited by skylight1
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Pakistan does not have any secular democratic movement that could even remotely address the country's problems. The secularists are, and have been in collusion with Musharraf's enlightenment - and have even further ruined the country. I could understand if there was secularists like, say, Hugo Chavez who was leading the opposition --- but what you have is Benazir, and her type leading it... and her kind will take the country even further down the drain. The more the country goes down the drain, the worse the reaction will be.

I don't think folks understand the level of desperation many many Pakistanis are beginning to feel --- I don't have concrete answers with regards to what Shi'as should do --- but am only pointing out that oppression always leads to a response. And at this time, many are turning to taleban types of "Islam" - as a reaction, because many do see secularism as having totally failed the country.

However, if there is no attempt to educate the population about Islam (and I don't just mean sectarian Shi'a stuff that I see propogated on Shi'a chat so much) - but true anti-sectarian Islam - such that Imam Khomeini talked about, if there is no attempt to propogate that Islam - and only "solution" that Shi'as have to offer in Pakistan is yet more secularism (with no leadership on the horizon, and basically more of the same) - well, yes, that means Shi'as are going to be in serious trouble.

However, the present situation cannot and will not continue in Pakistan for too long - and Shi'as minority, or not - have a role to play, and I don't mean a role of collusion with unprincipled secularists.

(I will say, that some of the liberals who have rallied around the Chief Justice are principled, but beyond re-instatement of the CJ, they too have no vision for Pakistan's future).

Who is going to make the "attempt to educate the population about Islam" when ulema with requisite qualifications (knowledge, courage, piety and political ability) are extremely rare, if at all existent, in our midst?

In reality we have only two alternatives: the secularists, most of whom are corrupt but, as indicated by you above, there are exceptions to this rule among them as well, and the self-styled "Islamists" whose "Noble Manifesto" I have reproduced above and who are no less corrupt than the likes of Benazir and Nawaz.

I support neither but feel that improvement from an imperfect secular base may be possible but reversal of Talibanisation, once it takes hold, will be impossible and we Shi'as would become extinct anyway in such a scenario.

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(salam)

(salam)

I know and understand your reason for opposing any Islamic government until zahur of our Imam (af), and I respect your right to it.

I oppose non-pious, unjust and ignorant "Islamic" movements like the Taliban, but feel that when the Imam (af) is amongst us there won't be a sudden switching to a just Islamic government (where all those helping Imam (af) run it will still be fallible), but that a vanguard government run by fallible momineen who are knowledgeable and just (within limitations of fallibility) will already have laid groundwork for the perfect Islamic government of the Imam (af) that will "fill the earth with justice". May Allah hasten the appearance of our Imam (af) and the just government led by him.

"Justice"

That is the key word. We the Shia hold that Allah Ta'ala is 'ayn-e-'adl and 'aadil-e-mutlaq. His viceregents on earth cannot but be that.

I will not labour this point further. I appreciate your point of view too, just as you do mine, and I do not agree with it, as you do not agree with mine. So we are pretty even stevens.

Our emphasis [and yes, the word our is being used in its usual connotation of a collective] is that we should concentrate as much as possible on tadhkiya-e-nafs, particularly in muamelat. When that happens, your society will by the day become closer and closer to what the ideal is.

Our major objections are on the ijraa of ta'azeer and hadd. We have seen injustices being perpetrated in the name of Allah.

Agar hakim-e-waqt ki zimmedari naheen k logon ki jaan, maal, izzat, aabroo ki hifazat karey, tau kya Natthu halwai se shikayat karein?

Musharraf's impotence at best, and collusion at worst, in the acts of Hafsa and DIK are very good bases to thoap it on him!

Chorrein. Yeh bachcha stock market khailtaa hai, aur Musharraf kay daur mein stock market kaafi tayz rahee hai

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Pakistan does not have any secular democratic movement that could even remotely address the country's problems. The secularists are, and have been in collusion with Musharraf's enlightenment - and have even further ruined the country. I could understand if there was secularists like, say, Hugo Chavez who was leading the opposition --- but what you have is Benazir, and her type leading it... and her kind will take the country even further down the drain. The more the country goes down the drain, the worse the reaction will be.

I don't think folks understand the level of desperation many many Pakistanis are beginning to feel --- I don't have concrete answers with regards to what Shi'as should do --- but am only pointing out that oppression always leads to a response. And at this time, many are turning to taleban types of "Islam" - as a reaction, because many do see secularism as having totally failed the country.

However, if there is no attempt to educate the population about Islam (and I don't just mean sectarian Shi'a stuff that I see propogated on Shi'a chat so much) - but true anti-sectarian Islam - such that Imam Khomeini talked about, if there is no attempt to propogate that Islam - and only "solution" that Shi'as have to offer in Pakistan is yet more secularism (with no leadership on the horizon, and basically more of the same) - well, yes, that means Shi'as are going to be in serious trouble.

However, the present situation cannot and will not continue in Pakistan for too long - and Shi'as minority, or not - have a role to play, and I don't mean a role of collusion with unprincipled secularists.

(I will say, that some of the liberals who have rallied around the Chief Justice are principled, but beyond re-instatement of the CJ, they too have no vision for Pakistan's future).

Your unawareness of things in Pakistan in amazing to say the least.

Their has been secularist movement in Pakistan since its creation by the British. Time has weakened it no doubt, but it is still a viable force and showing signs of resurgence. Musharraf's enlightenment has nothing to do with it.

As for Benazir, and before her ZAB, they have Pakistan's most maligned political leaders, and most enlightened in actuality. Even a dubious organization such as the Transparency International had to admit that in Pakistan's 60 years, ZAB's government was the cleanest ever. They labeled Benazir's second tenure as the most corrupt ever, followed by Nawaz Sharif's second tenure. The reasons are quite understandable.

ZAB could have firmly put Pakistan on the secular path, but he sold out to the Islamofsacists due to the machinations of the so called Allameh Kasar Niazi, a Jamaat Islami mole in the PPP.

Secularism and only secularism will do in Pakistan, and nothing else. And, we the Shia here, will block everything else.

You are welcome to come here, and try to bring in any brand of "Islamic" governance you feel fills the bill according to your understanding.

Be our guest.

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a WELFARE STATE headed by an HONEST and Patriotic " LEADER" is needed enough with the RULERs ruling us ... which include allll our past rulers exept Quaid e azam......if he were alive today we wud certainly have made PAkistan have a STRONG BASE if nothing else.....but now our BASE is weak and getting weaker with every new "RULER"......

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^ ji agar app unki "personal " life ki baat karti hain to woh mujhay bhi pata hay ( he married a parsi woman .. divorcd her ... his kids and grandkids live in india... his grandson dating Priety zinta so Yeahhhh that all i know..) but besides that ... we got a country coz of him around if nothin else .......

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^ ji agar app unki "personal " life ki baat karti hain to woh mujhay bhi pata hay ( he married a parsi woman .. divorcd her ... his kids and grandkids live in india... his grandson dating Priety zinta so Yeahhhh that all i know..) but besides that ... we got a country coz of him around if nothin else .......

Country tou angrez banaa kay day gyaa . . . mayn siyasat kee baat karr rahee thee

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(salam)

(salam)

"Justice"

That is the key word. We the Shia hold that Allah Ta'ala is 'ayn-e-'adl and 'aadil-e-mutlaq. His viceregents on earth cannot but be that.

I will not labour this point further. I appreciate your point of view too, just as you do mine, and I do not agree with it, as you do not agree with mine. So we are pretty even stevens.

Our emphasis [and yes, the word our is being used in its usual connotation of a collective] is that we should concentrate as much as possible on tadhkiya-e-nafs, particularly in muamelat. When that happens, your society will by the day become closer and closer to what the ideal is.

Our major objections are on the ijraa of ta'azeer and hadd. We have seen injustices being perpetrated in the name of Allah.

Some questions that come to one's mind in this context:

How will we - a society not seeking practical guidance from a leader - changeover from our present state to start collectively concentrating on tadhkiya-e-nafs, especially in mu'amlaat?

When the Just Islamic government of the infallible Imam (af) in inshaAllah installed in the world, would all of us somehow miraculously suddenly convert to perfection in our mu'amlaat or would there have been a preceding evolutionary phase helped along by fallible but pious guides?

Would the Imam (af) run his Just Government alone through a miracle or through a team of fallible persons as did Imam ali (alaihissalam)?

Chorrein. Yeh bachcha stock market khailtaa hai, aur Musharraf kay daur mein stock market kaafi tayz rahee hai

Mein khud stock market mein indulge karta hoon, lekin Imam al-Kazim (alaihissalam) ki Safwan Jammal ko naseehat k mutabiq kabhi ghasib hukumran ki khair ki khwahish naheen karta, na ye samajhta hoon k koi barkat iss malu'n k baais hey!

a WELFARE STATE headed by an HONEST and Patriotic " LEADER" is needed enough with the RULERs ruling us ... which include allll our past rulers exept Quaid e azam......if he were alive today we wud certainly have made PAkistan have a STRONG BASE if nothing else.....but now our BASE is weak and getting weaker with every new "RULER"......
^ ji agar app unki "personal " life ki baat karti hain to woh mujhay bhi pata hay ( he married a parsi woman .. divorcd her ... his kids and grandkids live in india... his grandson dating Priety zinta so Yeahhhh that all i know..) but besides that ... we got a country coz of him around if nothin else .......

Correction: His wife died. They were never divorced. His kid (Dina Wadia) lives in USA, not India. His grandson Nusli Wadia and his great-grandchildren do live in India. It is his great-grandson, not grandson, who is friendly with Ms. Zinta. Having said that, however, his personal life doesn't concern me.

What was Pakistan had only three really popular leaders: Jinnah, Mujib and Bhutto. We killed two of them and would have killed the third if he had not died on his own. All three of them shared a fear: that of having a capable successor. All three of them deliberately surrounded themselves with mediocrity, and it is that mediocrity that has ruled us for the rest of Pakistan's life.

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Found this derelict somewhere deep in the innards of the Urdu forum. Despite the initial post being concerned with a very specific issue, this topic blossomed into a wideranging discussion, which I cannot understand why it just braked to a halt.

Anyway.

Yeh Musharraf ka Pakistan nahin hai.

Yeh Pakistanyon ka Pakistan hai.

Musharraf aur iss sey pehle iss jaise dusre yahan ghalib iss liye rahay kyunke Pakistanyon ne inn ko bardasht kiya.

Faiz Sahab ki ik nazm hai "Kuttay" jis mein woh galyoun kay awara aur beykar kuttoun ka naqsha khainchte hein.

Akhir mein kehte hein:

"Yeh mazlum makhluq gar sar uthaye

To insan sab sarkashi bhool jaye

Yeh chahein to dunya ko apna bana lein

Yeh aaqaoun ki haddyan tak chaba lein

Koyi inn ko ehsas-e-zillat dilaa day

Koyi inn kee souee huee dumm hila day"

Udhar Quran ba bang dohal pukaray jataa hai

"Al laitha minkum rajul al rasheed?"

Pakistan kay tanazar mein yeh rajaul al rasheed jubba o dastaar wala nahin honay ka

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Found this derelict somewhere deep in the innards of the Urdu forum. Despite the initial post being concerned with a very specific issue, this topic blossomed into a wideranging discussion, which I cannot understand why it just braked to a halt.

Anyway.

Yeh Musharraf ka Pakistan nahin hai.

Yeh Pakistanyon ka Pakistan hai.

Musharraf aur iss sey pehle iss jaise dusre yahan ghalib iss liye rahay kyunke Pakistanyon ne inn ko bardasht kiya.

Faiz Sahab ki ik nazm hai "Kuttay" jis mein woh galyoun kay awara aur beykar kuttoun ka naqsha khainchte hein.

Akhir mein kehte hein:

"Yeh mazlum makhluq gar sar uthaye

To insan sab sarkashi bhool jaye

Yeh chahein to dunya ko apna bana lein

Yeh aaqaoun ki haddyan tak chaba lein

Koyi inn ko ehsas-e-zillat dilaa day

Koyi inn kee souee huee dumm hila day"

Udhar Quran ba bang dohal pukaray jataa hai

"Al laitha minkum rajul al rasheed?"

Pakistan kay tanazar mein yeh rajaul al rasheed jubba o dastaar wala nahin honay ka

Hilao dumm
Theek hai . . . start a new conflagration here

Can[t say off topic hai keh naheen. Borderline . . .

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Agar hakim-e-waqt ki zimmedari naheen k logon ki jaan, maal, izzat, aabroo ki hifazat karey, tau kya Natthu halwai se shikayat karein?

Musharraf's impotence at best, and collusion at worst, in the acts of Hafsa and DIK are very good bases to thoap it on him!

kia baat kar rahay hain yaar aap. Kia Iran mein agar MKO hay to woh Khomeini Sahab ka qasoor hay?

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Chorrein. Yeh bachcha stock market khailtaa hai, aur Musharraf kay daur mein stock market kaafi tayz rahee hai

sirf wohi nahi, aur bhi bohot kuch acha hua hay. Aap Karachi me rehte hue behter janti hain.

Laiken baat woh nahi hay, baat yeh hay ke jo jiski ghalti hay wohi bolein na. Agar aap bolein ke yeh kia kar raha hay Musharraf ke itnay saray important opposition leaders ko jail/house-arrest me daal raha hay. Imran Khan per har kuch weeks baad pabandi lag jati hay Sindh me entry ki. To chalein it makes sense if you hold Musharraf responsible for all these unfair actions. laiken yeh thori ke har cheez ka zimmedar wohi hay

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What is needed is a strong secular democracy. Period. Any Islamic movement will turn fascist.

Are you advocating removing religion from the realm of politics altogether? Practically speaking, I don't think its possible for Pakistan to be a truly secular country like Turkey. We are a relatively conservative society who still derives our values in large part from religion. There's no reason why Pakistan can't be a democratic/socialist state that's based on a tolerant, enlightened Islam not mullahism.

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(salam)

Agar hakim-e-waqt ki zimmedari naheen k logon ki jaan, maal, izzat, aabroo ki hifazat karey, tau kya Natthu halwai se shikayat karein?

Musharraf's impotence at best, and collusion at worst, in the acts of Hafsa and DIK are very good bases to thoap it on him!

kia baat kar rahay hain yaar aap. Kia Iran mein agar MKO hay to woh Khomeini Sahab ka qasoor hay?

(salam)

Agar Imam Khomeini (ra) ka idara (ya'ani hawzavi nizam) MKO ka khaaliq hota aur Imam Khomeini (ra) MKO ka difa' karney walon mein hotay tau aap ki tasawwur karda mumasilat kuch muntabiq ho bhi paati. Lekin iss waqt tau donon mazkura soorton mein 180 k zawiay ka faasla hey.

Guzishta teen maah mein Dera Ismail Khan mein surat-e-haal aur kharaab ho gai hey. Ab tak Shion ko sirf shaheed kia ja raha thaa. Abb aik Saidani ko din daharaey aghwa kar lia gaya hey (inn ittela'aat ko meri pehli post k tanazur mein dekhain). Momineen dhamkion k baais DIK aur Tank se hijrat pe majboor ho rahay hein. Fazlur Rehman ka bhai Lutfur Rehman inn Deobandi badmashon ka muqami sarghana hey.

Agar Lahore baith k mujhe ye ittela'at hein tau kya Musharraf ki agencian uss ko bakhabar naheen rakh rahi hoan gi? Aisey mein ya tau intehai na-ahli aur be-hisi dikha raha hai ye ghasib, ya khud mulawwis hey.

Maalike Ashtar (ra) ko Maula Ali (alaihissalam) ne jo mashoor maktoob likha tha uss mein ye wazeh farmaya thaa k haakim ki zimmedaarion mein se aik riaya k muktalif tabqon durmian amn barqaraar rakhna bhi hey. Lehaza phir arz karoon ga k Shion k khilaaf badamni aur unn k adm tahaffuz ka ilzaam haakim ko kyunkar na dein?

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(salam)

(salam)

Some questions that come to one's mind in this context:

How will we - a society not seeking practical guidance from a leader - changeover from our present state to start collectively concentrating on tadhkiya-e-nafs, especially in mu'amlaat?

Who have we sought guidance from ever since the advent of the ghaybat-e-kubra. Quran, aqwaal-e-m'aasoomeen, uswah-e-husana, and of course, 'Ulama. You will no doubt agree with all this.

The point of divergence comes where you are prepared to accord the right to order society according to their own very limited understanding of things, to a very limited class of people who have a vested interest in religion . . . we aim to make every single Shia believe she/he has a vested interest in religion as per the precepts and principles revealed to Rasool Allah, and repeatedly demonstrated to us by His Ahlalbayt.

When the Just Islamic government of the infallible Imam (af) in inshaAllah installed in the world, would all of us somehow miraculously suddenly convert to perfection in our mu'amlaat or would there have been a preceding evolutionary phase helped along by fallible but pious guides?

To answer this, I will change just the last word in your query. Sustitute people for guides.

Would the Imam (af) run his Just Government alone through a miracle or through a team of fallible persons as did Imam ali (alaihissalam)?

It could be either or a combination of both. I have no idea. I believe in miracles, there have been plenty in my life.

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Are you advocating removing religion from the realm of politics altogether? Practically speaking, I don't think its possible for Pakistan to be a truly secular country like Turkey. We are a relatively conservative society who still derives our values in large part from religion. There's no reason why Pakistan can't be a democratic/socialist state that's based on a tolerant, enlightened Islam not mullahism.

(salam)

I believe your opening query should be reworded.

One cannot remove religion from the realm of politics. The secular democracy we envision would see the shianess of the Shia exerting itself as a potent and positive influence in the country's politics.

What we advocate is a state structure and a polity that is founded upon democratic pluralism, not religion.

As stated by me time and again, any political movement founded on the principle of the sole hegemony of any religion, ethnicity, economic class etc, mutates into fascism as it matures.

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(salam)

Agar Imam Khomeini (ra) ka idara (ya'ani hawzavi nizam) MKO ka khaaliq hota aur Imam Khomeini (ra) MKO ka difa' karney walon mein hotay tau aap ki tasawwur karda mumasilat kuch muntabiq ho bhi paati. Lekin iss waqt tau donon mazkura soorton mein 180 k zawiay ka faasla hey.

Kia Musharraf nay is party ka manshoor likha hay? Ya woh is manshoor ki himayat karta hay?

Ya aap sirf is bunyaad per usko qasurwar thehra rahay hain ke tamam Pakistanio ki jaan, maal, izzat ki hifazat karna uski zimmedari hay?

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(salam)

Kia Musharraf nay is party ka manshoor likha hay? Ya woh is manshoor ki himayat karta hay?

Jee haan, Musharraf hukumat ghasb karney k din sey iss mal'un giroh ya'ani Deobandi Taliban ki uss waqt tak himayat aur difaa karta raha jub Powell k zariay pohnchney waali Bush ki "with us or against us" waali dhamki sey dar k inn ki himayat tark ki.

Aur iss giroh ko khalq kia uss idaray ney jis ka Musharraf sarbrah hey.

Ya aap sirf is bunyaad per usko qasurwar thehra rahay hain ke tamam Pakistanio ki jaan, maal, izzat ki hifazat karna uski zimmedari hay?

Ye wajah bhi hey, aur meray Maula Ali (alaihissalam) k hukm ki rawshni mein "sirf" naheen balkay boht ahm.

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(salam)

Jee haan, Musharraf hukumat ghasb karney k din sey iss mal'un giroh ya'ani Deobandi Taliban ki uss waqt tak himayat aur difaa karta raha jub Powell k zariay pohnchney waali Bush ki "with us or against us" waali dhamki sey dar k inn ki himayat tark ki.

And how do you prove that this particular group is supported by Musharraf to achieve its aims in Pakistan, as outlined in its manifesto?

Ye wajah bhi hey, aur meray Maula Ali (alaihissalam) k hukm ki rawshni mein "sirf" naheen balkay boht ahm.

Ofcourse, awam ki jaan, maal, izzat ki hifazat karna hakim ki zimmedari. Laiken meray khayal say aap ghalat apply kar rahay hain usko.

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(salam)

(salam)

Bhayya logo, aisa kion hay keh...

Aaj kal kisi ko nazla bhi hota hay tau musharraf ka kasur hay :D

Fi-AManillah

Agar momineen ki jaanein aur mominaat ki izzatein, nazlay jaisi ghair ahm hotein, tau hum jaisey sar phiray inn nazla giraney waaley badmashon k haami aur hukumat ghasb karney k mujrim Musharraf ko shayad iss nazley k liey qusurwaar na thehratey.

And how do you prove that this particular group is supported by Musharraf to achieve its aims in Pakistan, as outlined in its manifesto?

I don't need to prove anything to those who have read newspapers from 12th October 1999 to 11th September 2001 that contain Musharraf's eulogies and defence of this particular group, the Deobandi Taliban, that was even then responsible for target killings of momineen in Pakistan through its local proxies, the Sipah-e Sahaba and Lashkar-e Jhangvi.

Iss k baad k zamaney k akhbaraat se ye bhi zahir hota hey k iss giroh ko banaam MMA hukumat mein laaney k liey maidaan khaali karwaney mein Musharraf aur uss k jarnailon k tolay ka kitna haath hey.

Ofcourse, awam ki jaan, maal, izzat ki hifazat karna hakim ki zimmedari. Laiken meray khayal say aap ghalat apply kar rahay hain usko.

Aap ki iss raey rakhney k huq k ehtraam karta hoon k mein Maula Ali (alaihissalam) k hukm ko ghalat muntabiq kar raha hoon. Aur iss huq ka bhi ehtraam karta hoon k aap ney ye khayal form karney ki koi bunyaad bayaan farmana munasib naheen jaana.

Mera zawia-e-nigah aap se mukhtalif hey, jis ki wujooh hattal maqdoor iss se qabl bayaan kar chuka.

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