Namaz Of Fatimah (s.a.)

[La fata illa Ali]

Assalam:

dont want to get caught up in the shirk discussion here but wanted to point out to the OP...instead of praying TO Fatima (SA) why dont you instead conduct the prayer OF Fatima (SA) ?

Shaykh al Mufeed outlines this for us:http://www.*******.org/fiqh/kitab-al-ishraf

باب صلاة فاطمة (عليه السلام) :

و صلاة فاطمة (عليه السلام) ركعتان : يقرأ في الأولى منهما بفاتحة الكتاب و إنا أنزلناه في ليلة القدر مائة مرة .

و في الثانية بالفاتحة و قل هو الله أحد مائة مرة.

The prayer of Fatima (عليها السلام):

The prayer of Fatima (عليها السلام) [is composed of] two rak`aat: To recite in the first (rak`a) fatihatul Kitaab and innaa anzalnahu fi laylatul qadr a hundred times.

And in the second (recite) alfatiha and qul huwa Allahu aHad.

[Ethics]

Assalam:

dont want to get caught up in the shirk discussion here but wanted to point out to the OP...instead of praying TO Fatima (SA) why dont you instead conduct the prayer OF Fatima (SA) ?

Shaykh al Mufeed outlines this for us:http://www.tashayyu....kitab-al-ishraf

باب صلاة فاطمة (عليه السلام) :

و صلاة فاطمة (عليه السلام) ركعتان : يقرأ في الأولى منهما بفاتحة الكتاب و إنا أنزلناه في ليلة القدر مائة مرة .

و في الثانية بالفاتحة و قل هو الله أحد مائة مرة.

The prayer of Fatima (عليها السلام):

The prayer of Fatima (عليها السلام) [is composed of] two rak`aat: To recite in the first (rak`a) fatihatul Kitaab and innaa anzalnahu fi laylatul qadr a hundred times.

And in the second (recite) alfatiha and qul huwa Allahu aHad.

what are you talking about, its not a prayer TO fatima astagfiruallah its a prayer using Fatima to intercede on our behalf...

[muhibb-ali]

(bismillah)

Salam

Assalam:

dont want to get caught up in the shirk discussion here but wanted to point out to the OP...instead of praying TO Fatima (SA) why dont you instead conduct the prayer OF Fatima (SA) ?

Inshallah You are doing well.

Would have accepted your argument had Prophet Yaqub (as) said the same to his sons when they said the following as has been revealed in Quran:

قَالُوا يَا أَبَانَا اسْتَغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا خَاطِئِينَ

They said: "O our father! ask for us forgiveness for our sins, for we were truly at fault." [12:97]

قَالَ سَوْفَ أَسْتَغْفِرُ لَكُمْ رَبِّي ۖ إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ

He said: "Soon will I ask my Lord for forgiveness for you: for he is indeed Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [12:98]

Wassalam

Edited January 4, 2013 by muhibb-ali

[syed_shia]

Salat of Lady Fatima Zahra (A)

It is narrated that Lady F¡§imah al-Zahr¡', peace be upon her, used to offer a two-unit prayer taught by Archangel Gabriel. In the first unit, she used to recite S£rah al-F¡ti¦ah and repeat S£rah al-Qadr one hundred times. In the second unit, she used to recite S£rah al-F¡ti¦ah and S£rah al-Taw¦¢d. After Tasl¢m (i.e. the concluding part of a prayer), she would say the following :

سُبْحَانَ ذِي ٱلْعِزِّ ٱلشَّامِخِ ٱلْمُنِيفِ

sub¦¡na dh¢ al`izzi alshsh¡mikhi almun¢fi

Glory be to the Lord of Honor and Sublime Authority.

سُبْحَانَ ذِي ٱلْجَلاَلِ ٱلْبَاذِخِ ٱلْعَظِيمِ

sub¦¡na dh¢ aljal¡li alb¡dhikhi al`a¨¢mi

Glory be to the Lord of Majesty and Exalted Greatness.

سُبْحَانَ ذِي ٱلْمُلْكِ ٱلْفَاخِرِ ٱلْقَدِيـمِ

sub¦¡na dh¢ almulki alf¡khiri alqad¢mi

Glory be to the Lord of eternal, splendid sovereignty.

سُبْحَانَ مَنْ لَبِسَ ٱلْبَهْجَةَ وَٱلْجَمَالَ

sub¦¡na man labisa albahjata waljam¡la

Glory be to Him Who dressed Himself with splendor and beauty.

سُبْحَانَ مَنْ تَرَدَّىٰ بِٱلنُّورِ وَٱلْوَقَارِ

sub¦¡na man taradd¡ bilnn£ri walwaq¡ri

Glory be to Him Who is clad in light and dignity.

سُبحَانَ مَنْ يَرَىٰ اثَرَ ٱلَّنمْلِ فِي ٱلصَّفَا

sub¦¡na man yar¡ athara alnnamli f¢ al¥¥af¡

Glory be to Him Who makes out the footprints of the ant on the stone.

سُبحَانَ مَنْ يَرَىٰ وَقْعَ ٱلطَّيْرِ فِِي ٱلْهَوَاءِ

sub¦¡na man yar¡ waq`a al§§ayri f¢ alhaw¡'i

Glory be to Him Who knows (the exact time and place of) the bird dipping down through the air.

سُبْحَانَ مَنْ هُوَ هٰكَذَا لاَ هٰكَذَا غَيْرُهُ

sub¦¡na man huwa h¡kadh¡ l¡ h¡kadh¡ ghayruh£

Glory be to Him Who is like this and no one (other than Him) is like this.

Sayyid Ibn ±¡w£s adds that it is better to say the famous Tasb¢¦ al-Zahr¡' after offering this prayer and then invoke Almighty Allah’s blessings upon the Holy Prophet and his Household.

However, in Mi¥b¡¦ al-Mutahajjid, Shaykh al-±£s¢ has recorded that Lady F¡§imah al-Zahr¡'’s prayer consists of two units in the first of which S£rah al-F¡ti¦ah is recited once and S£rah al-Qadr is repeated one hundred times; and in the second unit, S£rah al-F¡ti¦ah is recited once and S£rah al-Taw¦¢d is repeated one hundred times. After the Tasl¢m, Tasb¢¦ al-Zahr¡' is said and then one’s knees and arms are uncovered so as to embrace the ground with all organs of prostration without putting any barrier between the ground and the organs of prostration. Such being the case, one should supplicate to Almighty Allah and pray for granting one’s requests. Being prostrating oneself, one should say the following prayer:

يَا مَنْ لَيْسَ غَيْرَهُ رُبٌّ يُدْعَىٰ

y¡ man laysa ghayrah£ rabbun yud`¡

O He besides Whom there is no lord to be supplicated!

يَا مَنْ لَيْسَ فَوْقَهُ إِلٰهٌ يُخْشَىٰ

y¡ man laysa fawqah£ il¡hun yukhsh¡

O He above Whom there is no god to be feared!

يَا مَنْ لَيْسَ دُونَهُ مَلِكٌ يُتَّقَىٰ

y¡ man laysa d£nah£ malikun yuttaq¡

O He except Whom there is no master to be revered!

يَا مَنْ لَيْسَ لَهُ وَزِيْرٌ يُؤْتَىٰ

y¡ man laysa lah£ waz¢run yu't¡

O He Who has no counselor to be approached!

يَا مَنْ لَيْسَ لَهُ حَاجِبٌ يُرْشَىٰ

y¡ man laysa lah£ ¦¡jibun yursh¡

O He Who has no attendant to be bribed!

يَا مَنْ لَيْسَ لَهُ بَوَّابٌ يُغْشَىٰ

y¡ man laysa lah£ baww¡bun yughsh¡

O He Who has no doorkeeper to be visited (secretly)!

يَا مَنْ لاَ يَزْدَادُ عَلَىٰ كَثْرَةِ ٱلسُّؤَالِ إِلاَّ كَرَماً وَجُوداً

y¡ man l¡ yazd¡du `al¡ kathrati alssu'¡li ill¡ karaman wa j£dan

O He Who gives not but generously and liberally no matter how many the demands are

وَعَلَىٰ كَثْرَةِ ٱلذُّنُوبِ إِلاَّ عَفْواً وَصَفْحاً

wa `al¡ kathrati aldhdhun£bi ill¡ `afwan wa ¥af¦an

and deals not with numerous sins but mercifully and kindly!

صَلِّ عَلَىٰ مُحَمَّدٍ وَآلِ مُحَمَّدٍ…

¥alli `al¡ mu¦ammadin wa ¡li mu¦ammadin…

Send blessings upon Mu¦ammad and his Household…

And then one may mention one’s personal requests.

Salaam,

Please pay attention to the above salat of the daughter of the holy prophet (a). What is the main different between this and the other one the sister quoted from Mufaddal b. `Umar who was a weak narrator and a known Gullat. On top of this we have a strange requests for us to go into sujood and do tawussal to Fatima Bint Muhammad (a).

If this is a requirement, why doesnt 'Dua Tawussal' mention to go into sujood when reciting the dua?

Why is it stated in this dua?

I know that intention means alot. However to go into sujjood for other than Allah is no laughing matter. However i do believe no shias would be actually prostrating for other than God.

While ones intention could be sincere and that they would say they are prostrating to Allah (swt) but doing tawussal to Fatima (a) and that the prostration is for Allah (swt) alone in their hearts, this is still a very danagerous thing to play with.....

When engraving surah fatiha into your heart, i dont understand how anyone can do tawussal while prostrating.....

Its the wording used aswell in the tawussal, which i find rather wrong aswell. Its Allah (swt) ultimatley you should be relying on.

Salaam

[Abu Tufayl]

(bismillah)

Well, as macisaac pointed out, it is narrated by a well-known ghali:

( 10 ) - 2 - المُفَضَّل بنُ عُمَر، الجُعْفيُّ، أبُو عَبْداللَّه. ضَعِيْفٌ، مُتَهافِتٌ، مُرْتَفِع القول، خَطّابِيٌّ. وقد زِيْدَ عليهِ شَيْ‏ءٌ كَثِيرٌ، وحَمَلَ‏ الغُلاةُ في حديثِهِ حَمْلاً عَظيْماً. ولا يَجُوزُ أنْ يُكْتَبَ حديثُهُ. وروى‏ عن أبي عَبْداللَّه، وأبي الحَسَن (ع).

2 – al-Mufaddal b. `Umar, al-Ju`fi, Abu `Abdillah. Weak, collapsed, a proponent of irtifa` in doctrine, Khattabi. Many things have been added (i.e. attributed) upon him, and his hadith carry a great amount of weight with the ghulat. It is not permissible to write his hadith. He narrated from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام and Abu ‘l-Hasan عليه السلام.

http://www.tashayyu....ibn-al-ghadairi

As for our views on the ghulat, see http://www.shiachat....and-delegation/

In addition, if the earliest source for this that we actually have really is Bihar al-Anwar, then that is very late (16th century CE).

( 40 ) - 40 - المُعْتَقَلُ بنُ عُمَر، الجُعْفيُّ، أبُو عَبْداللَّه. هُوَ عندي في نَفْسِهِ ثِقةٌ، لكنّ أحاديثَهُ كُلُّها مَناكِيْرُ، وليس يَخْلُصُ من حديثِهِ شي‏ءٌ يَجُوزُ أنْ يُعَوَّلَ عليهِ.

40 – al-Mu`taqal (likely an error for al-Mufaddal) b. `Umar, al-Ju`fi, Abu `Abdillah. According to me he is thiqa in himself, however his ahadith – all of them – are unrecognized, and nothing is cleared from his hadith that is permissible to rely upon.

Ibn al-Ghada'iri, also. So his opinions conflict, and what you posted is clarified here as weakening his narration content and/or who narrates from him (which is his own opinion).

في امان الله

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

Hxzmxzss

سلام علیکم

I like bibi fatimah, really she was and is a great woman and that is it.

salamalaikum ajrakum Minalllah

[M R]

Yeah, it's quite sad...

Salamunalykum,

Your posts are all quite simply amazing. Really i have begun to practise Islam more independently. When i read the Quran and i look upon the overwhelming ammount of verses telling me that i could rely upon Allah swt alone, or that i could only call upon him, it does not seem plausible that God really means to ask someone who he has given the power to; who are these people, why are their roles, powers, and names not been given? Also, the majority of the world is oblivious to these people (imams), does that mean a sincere person asking God will not get his DUA accepted until he asks a certain Imam?

This really is not a 'shia' practise. No-one can cite evidence for it, and i can cite Quranic evidence including Imam Ali's 31st sermon directly against it.

The imams are guides of religious matters. I will follow their teachings to the best of my ability. However, i will not ask them or seek anything through them. I beleive in intercession, but that will be on the day of judgement. God says he will decide who can give it and who can recieve it, so intercession really is just a honorary role because God himself knows who is deserving and who is not.

If we ignore everything i have just said, why do people not ask Allah swt with the intention of the Imam helping ?

Why do we always have to make things difficult and very shady? Why not say Ya Allah Madad (as Allah swt says in the Quran to call upon him by his beautiful names). Why do we say Ya Ali with the intention of Allah swt giving him power ?

The Quran is a simple book. Islam is a simple religion. Life = test. Treat others as you want to be treated. Work for spiritual and physical perfection. Be moderate as much as you can, do not be proud, and wherever you are, however low you are in life, however much your knowledge, tap into your innate sense of knowing this marvelous astronomical universe has a creator. Supplicate and call to him, even if it is symbolic .

"but we are sinners"

God says in the Quran, does he not, that O you who have trangressed your own souls, to CALL upon Allahswt. ?

"but he is so high we are so low"

God says in the Quran that he is closer to us than our jugular veins.

I respect the Imams so much to follow this quote by them. I will not go too ahead of them and give them importance like the christians have given Jesus. I will not go too behind them and disregard their teachings or intepretations.

I speak to myself before i speak to anyone else.

[Haydar Husayn]

(bismillah)

( 40 ) - 40 - المُعْتَقَلُ بنُ عُمَر، الجُعْفيُّ، أبُو عَبْداللَّه. هُوَ عندي في نَفْسِهِ ثِقةٌ، لكنّ أحاديثَهُ كُلُّها مَناكِيْرُ، وليس يَخْلُصُ من حديثِهِ شي‏ءٌ يَجُوزُ أنْ يُعَوَّلَ عليهِ.

40 – al-Mu`taqal (likely an error for al-Mufaddal) b. `Umar, al-Ju`fi, Abu `Abdillah. According to me he is thiqa in himself, however his ahadith – all of them – are unrecognized, and nothing is cleared from his hadith that is permissible to rely upon.

Ibn al-Ghada'iri, also. So his opinions conflict, and what you posted is clarified here as weakening his narration content and/or who narrates from him (which is his own opinion).

في امان الله

Descriptions such as "proponent of irtifa` in doctrine, Khattabi" seem a little specific to be coming simply from his own opinion. Surely in that case he could have contented himself with "weak", or "ghali". Assuming he is talking about the same person, perhaps he later found stronger reasons to weaken him and no longer considered him thiqa in himself. Or perhaps Ibn Dawud (who is the source for this entry, I believe) misquoted him.

Anyway, whichever way you want to look at it , it says his narrations are not to be relied upon, whatever the ultimate reason is, and narrations such as the one posted here don't exactly do much to prove him wrong.

[Abu Tufayl]

(bismillah)

Descriptions such as "proponent of irtifa` in doctrine, Khattabi" seem a little specific to be coming simply from his own opinion. Surely in that case he could have contented himself with "weak", or "ghali". Assuming he is talking about the same person, perhaps he later found stronger reasons to weaken him and no longer considered him thiqa in himself. Or perhaps Ibn Dawud (who is the source for this entry, I believe) misquoted him.

Anyway, whichever way you want to look at it , it says his narrations are not to be relied upon, whatever the ultimate reason is, and narrations such as the one posted here don't exactly do much to prove him wrong.

Again, the subjectivity of what was considered ghuluww and irtifaa3 is up to question. But aside from that, Ibn al-Ghada'iri's book is not mu`tabar `alal mashhoor.

And there are mutabar hadith that indicate his withaqah from the Imams [as]. And, it is the usul of the muhaqqiqeen to disregard weakening in aqeedah and mathhab in the face of tawtheeq. What is indicated, if one believes in the ghaal of Mufaddal b. Umar, is that he repented and returned from his deviant views. Most give him tawtheeq, and what's come from the latest Imam [as] are positive remarks.

You should look up the discussion Khui and others bring about him, in order to get a better understanding of the whole issue.

في امان الله

[AmirioTheMuzzy]

A question posted on r/Shia (reddit) by a Sunni. What should the response to this nonsense be? (sorry to be rude to this honest brother/sister).

Title: Do all Shias believe in Tasleem of Fatima?

Question: Salaam. A curious Sunni here. I was very shocked to see that Shias practise this in their Salaat, it is defenitely a huge shirk, and I wonder do all Shias believe in this or is this only practised in the minority? (Tasleem of Fatima or what ever its called, I have forgot the name but it is when you say Ya Fatima help me, in salaat, 100 times up to 500 times in sujood)

All the best.

Edit:

This is from the book titled ‘anwar az-zahraa’ :

Q. Is it allowed to make sujood (prostration) to Faatima ? A. It has come in narrations that it is a MUST to make sujood after the salaat [prayer] seeking assistance [help] by Faatima az-zahraa (may Allaah be pleased with her). And to say 100 hundred times while in sujood : ‘Ya Mawlaaya , Yaa Faatima , Agheethnee’ [O My Master , O Faatima , Aid me] And from the customary and natural things with us , that when we mentione her name and seek assitance from her ; then there is no way except that we have to prostrate to her. This is because it is not intellectually correct that a person speaks with Faatima and directs himself to her and seeks from her – and then he prostrates to someone other than her. This is because we cannot shun away from this reality, and that is if there is no prohibition to prostrate to other than Allaah [then its okay] , this is because we don’t have any proof showing the impermissibility of prostration to other than Allaah. …’

https://www.google.com/amp/s/shiascans.com/2017/04/14/sunnah-in-shiism-prostrating-praying-to-fatimah-a-few-hundred-times/amp/

[AmirioTheMuzzy]

Note that Shiaacans is a well known anti-Shia hate site that spreads misinformation.

[AmirioTheMuzzy]

Thanks @ShiaMan14 What is the general consensus on this issue? Is this authentic?

[ShiaMan14]

It is debatable.

It is mentioned in The Prayers Almanac (Mafatee Al-Jinan) by Qummi so my personal opinion is it is okay to recite.

Keep in mind, using Hz Fatima as a waseelah is not an issue. As long as prostration is being without thinking of her as God, what's the problem?

If someone uses this prayer thinking she is a deity, then it would be haram of course.

[Fink]

Shirk shirk shirk run away as fast as you can away from such practices. 

 

[Fink]

34 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

It is debatable.

It is mentioned in The Prayers Almanac (Mafatee Al-Jinan) by Qummi so my personal opinion is it is okay to recite.

Keep in mind, using Hz Fatima as a waseelah is not an issue. As long as prostration is being without thinking of her as God, what's the problem?

If someone uses this prayer thinking she is a deity, then it would be haram of course.

 

I posted in the other older topic but I find this appalling thing to say. First issue is it appeals into shirk. Call it whatever you want , Fatima as is dead and she can’t hear you. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does hear you and nothing escapes his knowledge whether it be an atom or smaller. This situation is exactly like what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) talks about in Surah Yunus. 

 

وَيَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ مَا لَا يَضُرُّهُمْ وَلَا يَنفَعُهُمْ وَيَقُولُونَ هَٰؤُلَاءِ شُفَعَاؤُنَا عِندَ اللَّهِ ۚ قُلْ أَتُنَبِّئُونَ اللَّهَ بِمَا لَا يَعْلَمُ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَلَا فِي الْأَرْضِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ (18

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) calls it worship while they said it was just intercession. Rings a bell? 

 

Why are some Shias scared of praying to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) alone? Why this belittling of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

 

[ShiaMan14]

13 minutes ago, Fink said:

 

I posted in the other older topic but I find this appalling thing to say. First issue is it appeals into shirk. Call it whatever you want , Fatima as is dead and she can’t hear you. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does hear you and nothing escapes his knowledge whether it be an atom or smaller. This situation is exactly like what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) talks about in Surah Yunus. 

 

وَيَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ مَا لَا يَضُرُّهُمْ وَلَا يَنفَعُهُمْ وَيَقُولُونَ هَٰؤُلَاءِ شُفَعَاؤُنَا عِندَ اللَّهِ ۚ قُلْ أَتُنَبِّئُونَ اللَّهَ بِمَا لَا يَعْلَمُ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَلَا فِي الْأَرْضِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ (18

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) calls it worship while they said it was just intercession. Rings a bell? 

 

Why are some Shias scared of praying to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) alone? Why this belittling of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

 

Are you rejecting all waseelah or just this?

[Fink]

1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Are you rejecting all waseelah or just this?

 

I think Waseelah is greatly misunderstood by Muslims and I'm skeptical about directly asking a dead human for intercession.

The Qur'an makes it clear that the dead can’t hear us for one, and second makes it super clear who to call upon.

**By waseelah I mean specifically calling out to dead Prophets Imams or otherwise to help or intercede for you. 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Fink

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

47 minutes ago, Fink said:

Fatima as is dead and she can’t hear you.

Salam Brother! 

I would like you to present "burhan" for this above quoted statement. Perhaps you forget the following verses:

"Wala taqoolu leman yuqtalu fe sabilillahe amwaat" 
"Wala tahsabannallthina qutelu fe sabilillahe amwaat" 

I believe Fatima (s.a) is alive by the grace of Almighty Lord and she is also taking her sustenance. 

[Fink]

15 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

Salam Brother! 

I would like you to present "burhan" for this above quoted statement. Perhaps you forget the following verses:

"Wala taqoolu leman yuqtalu fe sabilillahe amwaat" 
"Wala tahsabannallthina qutelu fe sabilillahe amwaat" 

I believe Fatima (s.a) is alive by the grace of Almighty Lord and she is also taking her sustenance. 

Salam,

Well aware of that verse , I don't understand that verse same fashion (in light of hundreds of other verses on this topic) but lets take it at face value, even if the verse literally means what it says , it doesn't mean she can hear you. Even then if she heard you, the whole concept is iffy. 

With much love and respect

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by Fink

[Fink]

To be clear, I'm not against asking someone to make Duaa for you. But I'm personally not comfortable associating anyone else with my salat, similiar to topic issue notes above.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Fink

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

2 minutes ago, Fink said:

I don't understand that verse that way (in light of hundreds of other verses on this topic) but lets take it at face value,

 I am only challenging your words where you have mentioned her as dead. Your burhan/daleel for calling her or understanding her dead is not understandable when there is divine prohibition on both as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said وَلاَ تَحْسَبَنَّ الَّذِينَ قُتِلُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ أَمْوَاتًا , this is verse 3:169 and in verse 2:154 He has commanded وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ لِمَنْ يُقْتَلُ فِي سَبيلِ اللّهِ أَمْوَاتٌ

Prohibition in place: "say not (wala taqulu)" , "think not (wala tahsabanna)" , I am just reminding you these brother. 

 

11 minutes ago, Fink said:

even if the verse literally means what it says , it doesn't mean she can hear you. Even then she heard you, the whole concept is iffy. 

I think it is better to accept our inability to perceive that quality of life which is granted to them by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).
The One who has made arrangement for their "Rizq" as mentioned in 3:169 بَلْ أَحْيَاء عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ يُرْزَقُونَ ,is certainly ABLE of granting them the hearing & the speech. 

 

وَقَالُوا لِجُلُودِهِمْ لِمَ شَهِدتُّمْ عَلَيْنَا قَالُوا أَنطَقَنَا اللَّهُ الَّذِي أَنطَقَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ وَهُوَ خَلَقَكُمْ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَإِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ

 

[Fink]

3 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

 I am only challenging your words where you have mentioned her as dead. Your burhan/daleel for calling her or understanding her dead is not understandable when there is divine prohibition on both as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said وَلاَ تَحْسَبَنَّ الَّذِينَ قُتِلُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ أَمْوَاتًا , this is verse 3:169 and in verse 2:154 He has commanded وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ لِمَنْ يُقْتَلُ فِي سَبيلِ اللّهِ أَمْوَاتٌ

Prohibition in place: "say not (wala taqulu)" , "think not (wala tahsabanna)" , I am just reminding you these brother. 

 

I think it is better to accept our inability to perceive that quality of life which is granted to them by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).
The One who has made arrangement for their "Rizq" as mentioned in 3:169 بَلْ أَحْيَاء عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ يُرْزَقُونَ ,is certainly ABLE of granting them the hearing & the speech. 

 

وَقَالُوا لِجُلُودِهِمْ لِمَ شَهِدتُّمْ عَلَيْنَا قَالُوا أَنطَقَنَا اللَّهُ الَّذِي أَنطَقَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ وَهُوَ خَلَقَكُمْ أَوَّلَ مَرَّةٍ وَإِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ

 

Salam brother, I really don't find this verse to mean they are alive after death. It is a metaphor. The Qur'an has a clear concept of the afterlife, no barzkh as understood by common Muslims, no punishment of the grave. The universe at some point will come to an end ,  the sun, Earth etc etc will die, the universe will end. A NEW UNIVERSE will be born and at that point we will be resurrected. 

Such is the dead, we will not feel the time pass, as if we all died together. It will feel like an hour or a day has passed when we are resurrected.

My understanding on that verse is consistent with that overall position of the afterlife.

 

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

9 minutes ago, Fink said:

Salam brother, I really don't find this verse to mean they are alive after death. It is a metaphor.

I don't know how you would understand the ahadith of Ma'someen (asws) like the following:

"Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has created my light first" (Awwalo ma khalaq Allaho noori)
"I was a Prophet when Adam was between the state of water & clay" (Kunto nabiyyan wa Adama baynal ma'a-e-watteen) 

And I don't know how you understand the verse where Allah is presenting other than Himself, someone as witness of Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (S)

"qul kafa billahe shaheedan bayni wa baynakum wa man endahu ilmul kitab". 

I also don't know what is your concept of death. What is mean by death for you? If you think death as something which takes away from you your power of hearing and speech, what would be the need of sending munkir/nakeer into graves? Why they ask questions from the dead who cannot hear or speak? 

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

And why the angels feel the need to say "salamun alaikum" to those who cannot hear: 

الَّذِينَ تَتَوَفَّاهُمُ الْمَلآئِكَةُ طَيِّبِينَ يَقُولُونَ سَلامٌ عَلَيْكُمُ ادْخُلُواْ الْجَنَّةَ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ
16:32 
 

[Fink]

7 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

I don't know how you would understand the ahadith of Ma'someen (asws) like the following:

"Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has created my light first" (Awwalo ma khalaq Allaho noori)
"I was a Prophet when Adam was between the state of water & clay" (Kunto nabiyyan wa Adama baynal ma'a-e-watteen) 

And I don't know how you understand the verse where Allah is presenting other than Himself, someone as witness of Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (S)

"qul kafa billahe shaheedan bayni wa baynakum wa man endahu ilmul kitab". 

I also don't know what is your concept of death. What is mean by death for you? If you think death as something which takes away from you your power of hearing and speech, what would be the need of sending munkir/nakeer into graves? Why they ask questions from the dead who cannot hear or speak? 

As a Quranist Id refer to the Qur'an, I can't speak for hadiths like that which really have no relevelance to our core beliefs.

But before entertaining the question about the grave,  what is your definition of grave? There's alot of frivolous hadiths many of which contradict the Qur'an, so I'm skeptical as I should be about things of this nature. 

 

[Fink]

2 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

And why the angels feel the need to say "salamun alaikum" to those who cannot hear: 

الَّذِينَ تَتَوَفَّاهُمُ الْمَلآئِكَةُ طَيِّبِينَ يَقُولُونَ سَلامٌ عَلَيْكُمُ ادْخُلُواْ الْجَنَّةَ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ
16:32 
 

So there are several concepts which need understanding before you read verses like this. This is probably the most important: 

The issue of time: It is a Quranic practice to refer to events which may be billions of years apart, collectively and seemingly happening at the same time. I can give you many examples like this if you are not familiar with it. 

And to quickly point this fact out if you read the verse mentioned above as you understand it , its clearly wrong , are you insinuating that the angels will tell the believers to enter jannah without going through judgment? This verse is referring to multiple events being condensed into one. 

 

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

6 minutes ago, Fink said:

what is your definition of grave? 

Since you're quranist, so let me give you that understanding of mine with which you will agree, for me it is a sleeping place. And that's why when we will be raised, we will say (36:52):
"Qalu ya waylana man ba'athana min marqadena" (They shall say: O woe to us! who has raised us up from our sleeping place?) 

[Fink]

Just now, Salsabeel said:

Since you're quranist, so let me give you that understanding of mine with which you will agree, for me it is a sleeping place. And that's why when we will be raised, we will say (36:52):
"Qalu ya waylana man ba'athana min marqadena" (They shall say: O woe to us! who has raised us up from our sleeping place?) 

So Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) sent this Qur'an in Arabic and by logic it is constrained by the Arabic language and it's capacity. The other issue is making this Qur'an understandable to people, as it is in Arabic it utilizes all forms of literary devices - including exaggeration. 

It is a means to communicate to us on a human level. That's why many times Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) compares the resurrection to plants or the Earth coming back to life.

How and where we will be resurrected is NOT made entirely clear in the Qur'an.

However, collectively it can safely be understood that there's  a FASIL or a barzkh between the two worlds. And furthermore it can safely be understood that there's 3adam, or non existence of consciousness in this medium.

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

4 minutes ago, Fink said:

its clearly wrong , are you insinuating that the angels will tell the believers to enter jannah without going through judgment?

 few quranic verses do mention some who will not go through the process of judgement. They either send directly to jannah or either thrown directly to hell. 

وَلَوْ تَرَى إِذْ يَتَوَفَّى الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَضْرِبُونَ وُجُوهَهُمْ وَأَدْبَارَهُمْ وَذُوقُواْ عَذَابَ الْحَرِيقِ
8:50

فَكَيْفَ إِذَا تَوَفَّتْهُمْ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَضْرِبُونَ وُجُوهَهُمْ وَأَدْبَارَهُمْ
47:27

These people will be thrown into hell. There is no meezan for Fir'on, for Abu Laheb & his wife, for the wife of Lut & Nuh etc. 

Similarly, there are some blessed personalities who will be given glad tidings & will be sent to Jannah immediate after their death. Should I quote verses for those people too?

[Fink]

10 minutes ago, Salsabeel said:

 few quranic verses do mention some who will not go through the process of judgement. They either send directly to jannah or either thrown directly to hell. 

وَلَوْ تَرَى إِذْ يَتَوَفَّى الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَضْرِبُونَ وُجُوهَهُمْ وَأَدْبَارَهُمْ وَذُوقُواْ عَذَابَ الْحَرِيقِ
8:50

فَكَيْفَ إِذَا تَوَفَّتْهُمْ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَضْرِبُونَ وُجُوهَهُمْ وَأَدْبَارَهُمْ
47:27

These people will be thrown into hell. There is no meezan for Fir'on, for Abu Laheb & his wife, for the wife of Lut & Nuh etc. 

Similarly, there are some blessed personalities who will be given glad tidings & will be sent to Jannah immediate after their death. Should I quote verses for those people too?

Read my reply about issue of time again, I think you misunderstand what is being said in these verses. 

Salam

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

29 minutes ago, Fink said:

The issue of time: It is a Quranic practice to refer to events which may be billions of years apart, collectively and seemingly happening at the same time. I can give you many examples like this if you are not familiar with it. 

 

3 minutes ago, Fink said:

Read my reply about issue of time again, I think you misunderstand what is being said in these verses.

Lets see this matter too, lets again get back to 3:169

وَلَا تَحْسَبَنَّ الَّذِينَ قُتِلُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ أَمْوَاتًا ۚ بَلْ أَحْيَاءٌ عِنْدَ رَبِّهِمْ يُرْزَقُونَ

What 3:170 says is more interesting for you

فَرِحِينَ بِمَا آتَاهُمُ اللَّهُ مِنْ فَضْلِهِ وَيَسْتَبْشِرُونَ بِالَّذِينَ لَمْ يَلْحَقُوا بِهِمْ مِنْ خَلْفِهِمْ أَلَّا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

 

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

27 minutes ago, Fink said:

However, collectively it can safely be understood that there's  a FASIL or a barzkh between the two worlds. And furthermore it can safely be understood that there's 3adam, or non existence of consciousness in this medium.

If you're a true Quranist, I don't know why you are ignoring the following verses: 

يَا أَيَّتُهَا النَّفْسُ الْمُطْمَئِنَّةُ 
ارْجِعِي إِلَىٰ رَبِّكِ رَاضِيَةً مَرْضِيَّةً
فَادْخُلِي فِي عِبَادِي
وَادْخُلِي جَنَّتِي

And one of the "nafs al-mutma'innah" has told us about hazrat Jafar al-Tayyar after his martyrdom :

"Jibreel has told me that Allah has granted Ja'far two wings to fly with in the Paradise."

[AmirioTheMuzzy]

I answered the brother:
"The prayer is NOT wajib (mandatory), but it is allowed (as far as I can tell, for the following reasons): It is mentioned in The Prayers Almanac (Mafatee Al-Jinan) by Qummi. This is not part of the Salah. Using Hz Fatimah as a waseelah (intermediary) when praying to Allah is allowed. This is the concept called tawassul (intercession)

His response:
"Alright, but why is it still in there because asking for help from other than Allah is clearly a huge shirk. Since Fatima is dead it it is clearly shirk to ask help. (I am not making takfir) This is just basic knowledge. But I assume that Shias don’t take this as Shirk, then what do they take it as? And why use her as an intercessor when Allah told us we don’t need to do that. We can just ask Allah directly because Allah hears all."

My answer:

You're right, we can pray directly to Allah, and we don't need to do tawassul. But, you need to realize that we are constantly doing tawassul without even realizing it. We use doctors as a waseelah, we use police as a waseelah, we ask our friends and family to pray for us, often because they're more pious than us (hence why some of us do tawassul to the Imams). Wasilah is any means that we use to seek closeness to Allah. Your brain, blood, muscles are all waseelah.

Furthermore, It's important to note that we consider the 14 infallibles (عليه السلام) as alive. "And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah 'They are dead' Nay, they are living, though you perceive it not" (2:154). This is why we can ask them to pray for us.

I'll admit, I don't do tawassul using the infallibles, but to be honest I should. It feels right to some and feels wrong to others (like me), and this is why it is such a contentious, highly debated issue among the layman Shia. That being said, we should use our logic, not feelings, as Allah tells us to do.

Please watch this video, it answers all your questions: https://youtu.be/qJT8dFePVcg

Are my answers good?

[AmirioTheMuzzy]

Edit to my post, I added that there is waseelah that is Halal and waseelah that is Haram.

His response:

I watched.

That verse, Christins love to use that verse to make their statements fair, that Jesus can hear us.. The Doctors and Police are alive while Fatima (رضي الله عنه) is not, you are asking a dead person for help. But if you really believe she is alive then there is no point in arguing, I can not guide. But I know what I needed to know. Thanks for your time.

I don't know how to respond to that... lol, whatever, thread closed. Good night.

[Urwatul Wuthqa]

29 minutes ago, Fink said:

I think you misunderstand what is being said in these verses. 

I don't have any sort of doubt or misunderstanding on the message of the verses Alhamdolillah. I however think the same for you brother. Lets see another verse too:

فَلَا نُقِيمُ لَهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَزْنًا
 We will not set up a balance for them on the day of resurrection.

And what do you think about balance itself? Its a metaphor, there are personalities who within themselves are "Meezan". Is there a meezan for mawazeen? 

وَنَضَعُ الْمَوَازِينَ الْقِسْطَ لِيَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ فَلَا تُظْلَمُ نَفْسٌ شَيْئًا