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zuhair_naqvi

Compiling Tawzeeh Ul-masail

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Bismillah Hir Rahman Ar-Raheem.

For centuries great traditional shia ulama from Allamah Baqir Majlisi (ar) to Muttaqi ul-Akhbariyeen Sheikh Hur Al-Amili (ar) had stood as pillars of traditional shiism and intellectually protected the doctrines against theological attacks from ulama like muhaqqiq al-hilli, muhaqqiq al-karkhi, shahid ath-thani etc. who were the patrons of evolving school of ijtihad within shia theology. But by the time of Wahid Bahbahani (also known as "muassis" "mujaddid"; meaning: the founder of usooli school) the attacks on traditional shiism were no longer intellectual but had turned physical through assassination of akhbari (traditional shia) ulama at the hands of Wahid Bahbahani's Mirghadabs army, powered by the state. Akhbari (traditional shia) ulama were driven out of the hawzas of Qum, Najaf and Karbala and even out of their homes in the holy cities. Only because they refused to accept ijtihad. It is since then that the usooli group took over the mainstream of ulama and made sure that no traditional shia alim shall rise thenon.

However, today, I have found many learned shias to have been convinced that Zann which is the keystone of usooli ijtihad, is not acceptable as an evidence in Islamic law. i.e., they believe that only and only sunnah of the infallibles is hujjah in shariyyah. But to their and our disadvantage, there have been no great fuqaha in traditional shiism after sheikh Hur Al-Amili and no one had the opportunity to re-compile the works of such great tradionalist ulama to present them in a simpler form like that of the tawzeehs of usooli marajae.

We have decided to start working in this direction and our goal is to use the existing works like Mani ul-Akhbar, Wasail us-shia, Bidayat al-Hidayah etc. to produce a tawzeeh ul-masail which shall present shia fiqh as it was before invention of ijtihad. We have decided to use the exact same format as that of the tawzeeh of contemporary maraje, since the majority are acquainted to that format. The book will address both Aqaid (beliefs) and Shariyyah (islamic laws) and that only through the traditions of the infallibles.

Seeking your dua and valued comments,

Siyyid Zuhair Naqvi.

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Another issue is how to understand the hadiths, some people see a hadith in their view and make their view the hadith, while hadith might have different meaning than what they want it to mean or first thought it to mean.

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Bismillah Hir Rahman Ar-Raheem.

For centuries great traditional shia ulama from Allamah Baqir Majlisi (ar) to Muttaqi ul-Akhbariyeen Sheikh Hur Al-Amili (ar) had stood as pillars of traditional shiism and intellectually protected the doctrines against theological attacks from ulama like muhaqqiq al-hilli, muhaqqiq al-karkhi, shahid ath-thani etc. who were the patrons of evolving school of ijtihad within shia theology. But by the time of Wahid Bahbahani (also known as "muassis" "mujaddid"; meaning: the founder of usooli school) the attacks on traditional shiism were no longer intellectual but had turned physical through assassination of akhbari (traditional shia) ulama at the hands of Wahid Bahbahani's Mirghadabs army, powered by the state. Akhbari (traditional shia) ulama were driven out of the hawzas of Qum, Najaf and Karbala and even out of their homes in the holy cities. Only because they refused to accept ijtihad. It is since then that the usooli group took over the mainstream of ulama and made sure that no traditional shia alim shall rise thenon.

However, today, I have found many learned shias to have been convinced that Zann which is the keystone of usooli ijtihad, is not acceptable as an evidence in Islamic law. i.e., they believe that only and only sunnah of the infallibles is hujjah in shariyyah. But to their and our disadvantage, there have been no great fuqaha in traditional shiism after sheikh Hur Al-Amili and no one had the opportunity to re-compile the works of such great tradionalist ulama to present them in a simpler form like that of the tawzeehs of usooli marajae.

We have decided to start working in this direction and our goal is to use the existing works like Mani ul-Akhbar, Wasail us-shia, Bidayat al-Hidayah etc. to produce a tawzeeh ul-masail which shall present shia fiqh as it was before invention of ijtihad. We have decided to use the exact same format as that of the tawzeeh of contemporary maraje, since the majority are acquainted to that format. The book will address both Aqaid (beliefs) and Shariyyah (islamic laws) and that only through the traditions of the infallibles.

Seeking your dua and valued comments,

Siyyid Zuhair Naqvi.

In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

While your sentiment is most intriguing, I should point out that what you will be doing is essentially a form of half-baked ijtihad - in a manner similar to the Akhbari Ulema of yesteryear (what I mean by half-baked is that it will be incomplete and highly subjective - I will elaborate on this further shortly).

You are compiling ahadeeth from various books of Fiqh, and will be presenting them in a manner that is similar to that of the Risaleh Amaliyyah (or Tawzih al-Masail). In order to this, you will have to strip all information regarding the narrators of the hadeeth, you will have to select one opinion as opposed to another.

For example; in order for you to give a fatwa or ruling (which is what the Tawzeeh al-Masail contains) on the subject of for example; temporary marriage, you will have to examine the myriad of ahadeeth, some of which indicate that permission is required from the parent/guardian of the lady wishing to initiate the temporary marriage, and others where said permission is not required (I choose Muta or temporary marriage as an example since there are a plethora of contradictory ahadeeth on this subject's finer details within our books).

If you present to fatawi - one which says "Permission must be saught from the parent/guardian" and another which says "Permission is not required to be saught from the parent/guardian" - you will have presented yourself with a very confusing book, that has absolutely no value to any living human being - except to create confusion.

If however, you select a single ruling pathway- and say - for example that "Permission must be saught from the parent/guardian" - you have in merely making that selection performed an act of Ijtihad (of sorts), you have examined the ahadeeth, and for a reason (valid or invalid is irrelanvet at this stage) selected one pathway over another.

In doing so, you have rejected the hadeeth suggesting that parental consent is not required.

The whole concept of a Tawzih al-Masail or Risalah Amaliyyah is an Usuli concept and was non-existant in the times of the Akhbariyyeen - at least in the form that we have today - in those times - regardless of what is suggested by the neo-Akhbari's of today - there was a rudimentary form of Ijtihad, it was simply not as advanced as that which we have today.

Logic can prove this very easily; consider:

If there are two statements that are clearly mutually contradictory; it is invalid to consider both as valid, and further investigation (striving, struggling with the information and the intellect and other resources available - remember this portion in parentheses it will prove quite enlightening as we progress) is required prior to passing an edict (fatwa can be translated almost perfectly to the English word edict), as without further investigation, both opinions would be classed as valid, since black is either black or it is not black but is never both black and not black to suggest that it is nothing short of insane.

In order to determine which pathway is the valid pathway, a series of tests have to be undertaken, these can be explained - logically and without recourse to detailed formulae - as follows:

The primary criterion for all fatawi is the Quran; therefore; both ahadeeth would be examined against Quran; if the Quran is delibarately vague on a subject; then a secondary criterion has to be established and the ahadeeth need to be examined against the secondary criterion.

Consider; someone tells you something about Person X; you do not know Person X, but perhaps Person X has proposed to your son/daughter; Person A has said Person X is not a very good person; but Person B has said that Person X is an excellent person; what do you do?

You need to consider the validity of the two informants; Person A and Person B; you need to examine if they have an ulterior motive in what they are saying; you need to consider if they have a history of being dishonest or at the very least bending the truth; you have to examine their psychological condition; are they under any duress at the time they have given you this information; their relationship to you; are they overly fond of you or do they dislike you; is their information based on a single context, or is based on information that has been established over a period of time - all of these conditions may or may not be apparent, but they have to be examined, and only after that can you disregard one as invalid and the other as valid. You cannot merely say that Person X who wants to marry my son/daughter is both good and bad; since if you were to do that, you would without a doubt be called an abolsute fool.

You have to establish the truth. In Quran, in Surah al-Asr, what does Allah say in the third verse?

Allah says:

Except those who believe and do good, and enjoin on each other truth, and enjoin on each other patience.

Quran, Surah al-Asr, Verse 3

Therefore you have to enjoin the truth, now there is only ONE truth generally (yes there is a philosophical discussion that can be had about multiple truths in the same item, but that is beyond the scope of this discussion). In this case; Person X is either good or is bad, he is not both good as a whole and bad as a whole.

You have to enjoin towards the truth, this is Quranic, and since Quran is the ultimate criterion, it is ALWAYS valid and true - and you will not find contradictions in the Quran.

Therefore; you see, immediately in wanting to present an alleged Akhbari mentality in an Usuli format, you are compelled to leverage the science of Ijtihad, without that you would be enjoining towards confusion, which is the path of negativity and is an invalid path to traverse.

I would ask you to make your life simple; instead of doing your own half-baked Ijtihad concept that will without a doubt lead to massive confusion and ultimately misguidance of the massed (for which you and your co-workers) will be responsible; it would be more pertinent for you to examine the entire concept of neo-Akhbarism; and work out how a concept that is laced with contradictions by it's very nature; can permit itself to be considered a valid Quranic concept; since Quran clearly suggests that mankind is at a loss; except those who enjoin patience and truth, I refer you to examine, consider and ponder on Surah al-Asr.

Insha Allah that helps.

With Salaams and Dua's

Shabbir

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(salam)

Nice post Br. Shabbir.

I would like to add another thing. The starter of this thread implied that Allamah al-Majlisi was an akhbari, this for the first part of his life was true, but he later on changed his stance and accepted ijtihaad and thus became an Usuli.

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(bismillah)

(salaam)

Very informative post Br. Shabbir, Jazakallah!!

Over these last few years ive noticed a real effort being made by the Akhbaari school of thought in spreading its views and beliefs. From what i understand, it seems to be a concentrated effort emanating from Pakistan. Being of Pakistani decent myself, (therefore allowing me to be less careful with my words :D), we are not a nation famous for producing scholars the likes of Iran/Iraq etc. So i was just wondering if these ideas that are resurfacing from the Akhbaaris are solely from Pakistanis, or does the network span to places like Qum/Najaf? Are there any eminent scholars from these countries that share the same views?

I do read all the time the Akhbaari's stating that Ayatollah Wahid Behbahani used the power at his disposal to disperse all the people with such views from the holy sites, but they didnt all migrate to pakistan did they??

Come to think of it, it would explain a lot :-)

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Salaams,

I cannot speak of the methodology this brother and those working on this work are employing as such. However the premise of your post is flawed in that would imply that the Akhbari scholars (by that I'm referring to scholars such as Hurr al-`Amili, Shaykh Yusuf al-Bahrani, or even the Kirmani Shaykhiyya (who weren't strictly "akhbari" as such)) had no methodology in determining their fatawa, or any manner in resolving the apparent contradictions in the riwaya. This isn't true, they did have such methods, but they tried to base their understanding on what has been brought down to us from the Imams themselves, and not in borrowing methodologies from the Zaidis and Shafi`is.

For instance, authenticating hadiths amongst usoolis largely is an exercise in determining the "sihhat" of the isnad (or least this is a primary factor). This is done by consulting what the books of rijal say about so and so narrators. First off, this is apparently a Zaidi innovation, it wasn't something that was practiced as such amongst the early `ulema. Second, why should we trust the authenticity of what the rijal books tell us? Why are they to be considered reliable whereas the hadith books are not? Is it because they're supposedly consistent? Well, they aren't, the rijal books are chock full of contradictions about individual narrators. Why should we trust them then so much to reject the hadith on their basis?

At any rate, it isn't relevant as we can see that the Imams taught us not to look to the one who was narrating, but rather what they were saying, such as "Accept what they narrate, reject what they believe" (about the fathiyya), "Do not look at who says, but what he says" and "Do not reject a hadith, even if it comes from one of the khawarij." It is thus on the basis of the matn of the hadith that a hadith is to be evaluated (if I can use such a term). Does it agree with the Quran? If not, reject it. Does it agree with the ijma` of the Sunnis, whereas another disagrees? Turn to the second. There is a methodology here (I've not laid it all out).

Now you might say, well this is a form of ijtihad then. If by ijtihad you simply means a scholar doing research, well ok, but historically this isn't all what the term ijtihad meant in a fiqhi context. As such, we know that the early `ulema firmly rejected the concept, and later on, the "Akhbaris" continued this.

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Salaams,

I cannot speak of the methodology this brother and those working on this work are employing as such. However the premise of your post is flawed in that would imply that the Akhbari scholars (by that I'm referring to scholars such as Hurr al-`Amili, Shaykh Yusuf al-Bahrani, or even the Kirmani Shaykhiyya (who weren't strictly "akhbari" as such)) had no methodology in determining their fatawa, or any manner in resolving the apparent contradictions in the riwaya. This isn't true, they did have such methods, but they tried to base their understanding on what has been brought down to us from the Imams themselves, and not in borrowing methodologies from the Zaidis and Shafi`is.

For instance, authenticating hadiths amongst usoolis largely is an exercise in determining the "sihhat" of the isnad (or least this is a primary factor). This is done by consulting what the books of rijal say about so and so narrators. First off, this is apparently a Zaidi innovation, it wasn't something that was practiced as such amongst the early `ulema. Second, why should we trust the authenticity of what the rijal books tell us? Why are they to be considered reliable whereas the hadith books are not? Is it because they're supposedly consistent? Well, they aren't, the rijal books are chock full of contradictions about individual narrators. Why should we trust them then so much to reject the hadith on their basis?

At any rate, it isn't relevant as we can see that the Imams taught us not to look to the one who was narrating, but rather what they were saying, such as "Accept what they narrate, reject what they believe" (about the fathiyya), "Do not look at who says, but what he says" and "Do not reject a hadith, even if it comes from one of the khawarij." It is thus on the basis of the matn of the hadith that a hadith is to be evaluated (if I can use such a term). Does it agree with the Quran? If not, reject it. Does it agree with the ijma` of the Sunnis, whereas another disagrees? Turn to the second. There is a methodology here (I've not laid it all out).

Now you might say, well this is a form of ijtihad then. If by ijtihad you simply means a scholar doing research, well ok, but historically this isn't all what the term ijtihad meant in a fiqhi context. As such, we know that the early `ulema firmly rejected the concept, and later on, the "Akhbaris" continued this.

In His Name, the Most High

Salaams,

While I appreciate what you are suggesting, I would question the validity of what you have said.

Firstly, in order to have a sensible discussion it is important to define certain boundaries and baselines that will constitute the discussion arena. While you might appreciate that Ilm ar-Rijaal (The science of examining the transmitters of the ahadeeth) is a "Zaidi Innovation", you will have to provide conclusive evidence for two elements; firstly the accusation that you make - i.e. that it is in-fact something practiced by the Zaidi's and only the Zaidi's and that it was something that they added to Islam pure. You then have to explain why said science (i.e. Ilm ar-Rijaal) is in fact against Islam and as a result invalid. I can provide you with evidence - proof even - using logical and the lives of the Prophet(S) and Aimmah(A) that there is a basis for at least a very rudimentary version of Ilm ar-Rijaal within the lives of the Aimmah(A), and indeed within Quran - which as I had explained previously - is our primary criterion and it is only the Quran wherein there is no doubt.

Therefore, where you suggest that:

For instance, authenticating hadiths amongst usoolis largely is an exercise in determining the "sihhat" of the isnad (or least this is a primary factor). This is done by consulting what the books of rijal say about so and so narrators. First off, this is apparently a Zaidi innovation, it wasn't something that was practiced as such amongst the early `ulema. Second, why should we trust the authenticity of what the rijal books tell us? Why are they to be considered reliable whereas the hadith books are not? Is it because they're supposedly consistent? Well, they aren't, the rijal books are chock full of contradictions about individual narrators. Why should we trust them then so much to reject the hadith on their basis?

Clearly you are wrong, because the Quran is the primary factor in determining the authenticity of anything. One of the titles of the Quran is al-Furqaan (Surah al-Furqaan, Verse 1), indeed there is a Surah in the Quran is named al-Furqaan (The Criterion). If one examines the meaning of the English word criterion, you will find that it means:

a standard of judgment or criticism; a rule or principle for evaluating or testing something. (See: dictionary.com)

Since Quran is the ultimate rule, measure or yardstick even for determining what is valid and what is invalid, it would be safe to assume that the contents of said yardstick (i.e. the contents of Quran), are by their very definition completely valid; therefore when validating something that has been allegedly been said by an infallible but that has been transmitted by a fallible person; due to the very presence of a fallible person in the equation an uncertainty factor is created, and the ultimate Criterion (i.e. the Quran) must be leveraged and used to determine the validity of said alleged statement.

This is basic common sense. Therefore, without the Science of ar-Rijaal - which I completely agree is NOT an absolute science, since it too has been tainted by the presence of fallible sources in it's biographic data regarding other fallibles; there is a method whereby said content can be validated.

Firstly; in order to determine if someone's statement is valid or invalid; the baseline is Quran. For example; let us suppose there is hadeeth that suggests (please note this is an example hadeeth and provided purely to allow the discussion to continue; the validity or invalidity of said hadeeth, or even it's reference are not important in the real world, as it is provided to assist in the clarification of a point):

"According to Someone son of Someone else, who said that he heard from his father, Someone_else the son of another_someone_else, who said that he heard from the Imam as-Sadiq(A) that Imam as-Sadiq(A) said he had heard from His father al-Baqir(A) who had heard from Aba Abdillah al-Husayn(A) who had heard from the Prophet of Islam(S) that when praying, during the Qiyam stage it is better for men to place their palms on their thighs and be upright in their posture"

Now let us attempt to examine this hadeeth, and let us collectively try to verify it's authenticity.

Before moving on; we need to examine the core of the hadeeth, i.e. what it is saying - then we will move onto who is doing the saying.

The actual lesson being given by this hadeeth is:

that when praying, during the Qiyam stage it is better for men to place their palms on their thighs and be upright in their posture

That's the core of the hadeeth; it's message (valid or invalid is secondary - grabbing the core of the message is what is required).

The first pass that needs to be completed in attempting to verify this hadeeth is the Quranic Pass. This requires that the one attempting to validate, has a thorough understanding of the Quran; understands which ayaat (verses) abrogated which other verses, when said abrogation occoured, why it occoured, and what context were the verses revelaed in, as well detailed linguistic understanding of the Arabic of the time, and it's meaning at the time, which then extrapolated can be it's meaning in today's context, including but not limited to realising if there is a fundamental difference in understanding from then and now.

This by itself requires extensive study, reflection and indeed a very high level of intelligence.

The person attempting to authenticate this hadeeth, has to cross-check this hadeeth and it's meaing - i.e. that during the Qiyaam (standing) portion of prayer it is recommended for the men to place their palms on their thighs, with references to the Qiyaam position of prayer in Quran, with references to the position of the male extremeties during prayer, and needs to determine if there is anything in Quran that describes this.

Then a loop (much like a programming loop for the tech-savvy amongst us) is started:

1/ If there is no Quranic reference to a scenario such as that explained in the hadeeth then

{

2/ there is a requirement for an examination of quranic occourances regarding such detail in prayer; as in details regarding the position of the extremeties during prayer, i.e. a similar scenario but different - why? because it then becomes important to determine if the content of the hadeeth - which is quite a detailed point, has ever had a precedent in Quran, i.e. has Quran ever refered to the act of prayers in detail (as in how to perform them in detail, with the Qiyaam, Ruku', Sujud, etc) in

detail.

{

3/ if there is an occasion, then it has to be examined why there is no reference to this level of detail; is it too low-down a level of detail, is it something that requires explanation by example, rather than by text - i.e. would it require a demonstrative explanation; i.e. someone from amongst the Prophet(S) and Aimmah(A) to demonstrate so that the people understand or is it something that can be explained clearly using purely linguistic means - regardless of how eloquent?

{

4/ if there is a risk of this being misconstrued, then it is required that this be followed up with a demonstrative explanation, which would come via the

ones who are the living Quran, i.e. Prophet Muhammad(S) and the Aimmah al-Athaar(A); as a result it would be logical for the Prophet(S) or Aimmah(A) to

have explained this in detail - as in the hadeeth above - as a result; in the Quranic pass the hadeeth is considered okay.

}

5/ if there is no occasion where such an example has been given, then again the previous point needs to be considered, is it too low-level a concept and indeed one that requires demonstration for people to understand, rather than a pure linguistic explanation; is there a prescedent for this activity; if so when?

}

}

I am not going into the full detailed tree logic of the Quranic Pass, as that would take up huge amounts of bandwidth not to mention time and would still be an incomplete explanation, but suffice it to say that there is a detailed pathway that needs to be traversed and in this illustration we have traversed maybe 0.001% of this pathway; with well over 99.998% at least still remaining.

If the above hadeeth is considered; we can come away with pathway 3; with pathway 3 (above) being:

3/ if there is an occasion, then it has to be examined why there is no reference to this level of detail; is it too low-down a level of detail, is it something that requires explanation by example, rather than by text - i.e. would it require a demonstrative explanation; i.e. someone from amongst the Prophet(S) and Aimmah(A) to demonstrate so that the people understand or is it something that can be explained clearly using purely linguistic means - regardless of how eloquent?

Since in Quran, there is mention of Qiyaam:

There did Zakariya pray to his Lord; he said: My Lord! grant me from Thee good offspring; surely Thou art the Hearer of prayer.

Then the angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary: That Allah gives you the good news of Yahya verifying a Word from Allah, and honorable and chaste and a prophet from among the good ones.

He said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to me, and old age has already come upon me, and my wife is barren? He said: even thus does Allah what He pleases.

(Quran, Surah Aal-i-Imraan, Verses 38-40)

While, the context of the verse is the story of Zakariyyah(A) the Prophet of Allah, the word "Qa'imun" - the same Arabic linguistic verb family "Qaama, Yaqumu" (To Stand) - the word "Qiyaam" is derived. Qa'imun means that he was in the standing position, Qiyaam means "Standing Position", same root verb. This is important.

There is no detail in the Quran regarding the process of Qiyaam, but that there is a Qiyaam during the prayer (there are no doubt other references, but this will suffice for the purposes of our discussion).

Also, since what is being described is a complex detail of the process of Qiyaam (which we have no established is a valid process in the prayers as per the Quranic verse above), we can then suggest that in principle; thus far there is nothing wrong with this hadeeth; however it is still very far from being classified as valid or invalid or somewhere in between.

Therefore; we can say:

Quranic Validation: PASSED

The hadeeth is now subjected to the complex process of transmission chain validation. Again in order to explain why there is a secondary phase which has to be employed, we can again examine Quran. In many ayaat from Quran (of which I will quote one example), we need to examine a risk associated with fallible human beings; since this transmission chain has three infallibles and two fallibles in it; we have no choice but to verify the two fallible sources; once they have been validated, then the validation of an infallible is not required since by their very defination an infallible is instantly valid.

Since the chain is chronological; i.e. has a timeline; we have to break it down into it's individual components; and validate them; but before I go there; it is important to understany why the fallible portion must be validated;

In Quran; in Surah al-Hashr, Verse 15; Allah says:

Like the Shaitan when he says to man: Disbelieve, but when he disbelieves, he says: I am surely clear of you; surely I fear Allah, the Lord of the worlds.

In Quran, Surah al-Hadid, Verse 14; Allah says:

They will cry out to them: Were we not with you? They shall say: Yea! but you caused yourselves to fall into temptation, and you waited and doubted, and vain desires deceived you till the threatened punishment of Allah came, while the archdeceiver deceived you about Allah.

and in Quran; Surah Yasin, Verses 60 to 62; Allah says:

Did I not charge you, O children of Adam ! that you should not serve the Shaitan? Surely he is your open enemy,

And that you should serve Me; this is the right way.

And certainly he led astray numerous people from among you. What! could you not then understand?

we can see that there is a constant risk of a fallible person being tempted and led astray by Shaytaan, and how do we know that he will attempt to do this? Again; the answer is in Quran;

In Surah al-A'araaf, Verses 11 to 18, there is a very interesting dialogue that Allah presents between Himself and Iblis; where Iblis (Shaytaan) says clearly that he will make it his life's goal to misguide humanity in whichever manner he can (see Verses 12 to 17 for the actual dialogue between Allah and Iblis as explained in Quran - portion is highlighted in bold below:

And certainly We created you, then We fashioned you, then We said to the angels: Prostrate to Adam. So they did prostrate except Iblis; he was not of those who prostrated.

He said: What hindered you so that you did not prostrate when I commanded you? He said: I am better than he: Thou hast created me of fire, while him Thou didst create of dust.

He said: Then get forth from this (state), for it does not befit you to behave proudly therein. Go forth, therefore, surely you are of the abject ones.

He said: Respite me until the day when they are raised up.He said: Surely you are of the respited ones.

He said: As Thou hast caused me to remain disappointed I will certainly lie in wait for them in Thy straight path.

Then I will certainly come to them from before them and from behind them, and from their right-hand side and from their left-hand side; and Thou shalt not find most of them thankful.

He said: Get out of this (state), despised, driven away; whoever of them will follow you, I will certainly fill hell with you all.

Now, since Shaytaan has been given respite by Allah, and has made it his life's work to misguide humanity; there is a risk that those who are not protected by divine infallibility are indeed susceptable to being misguided; if this was not the case; then the Quran wouldn't have constantly said (and see the verses I've quoted earlier for clarification) and warned humanity against the plottings and schemes of Shaytaan, who's aim it is to make fallible humans go away from the Truth, to cover the Truth up (to do kufr in minor or major ways, whatever he can achieve - minor and major kufr is another lengthy discussion that can be had at a later stage insha Allah if required).

Therefore; now that we have confirmed, from Quranic sources that fallible people are able to get misguided; it is not unfair or disrespectful to suggest that the two fallible people who have transmitted the hadeeth we are studying might well have been misguided; however, since the core of the hadeeth is not contradictory to Quran, we can proceed with determining the reliablility of the individuals in question. Let us first break down the chronological pathway that this hadeeth has taken from the most recent to the alleged original source:

Primary Fallible Narrator: Someone son of Someone else

Secondary Fallible Narrator : Someone_else the son of another_someone_else

Since the third source in the narration; from whome Someone_else the son of another_someone_else is allegedly narrating; we must determine whether Someone_else the son of another_someone_else is a valid reliable source.

For this we need some bio-data on Someone_else the son of another_someone_else; and need to determine at a most rudimentary level; whether Someone_else the son of another_someone_else was indeed a contempoary of the infallible from whome he is narrating the tradition; in this case Imam as-Sadiq(A).

This would require that Someone_else the son of another_someone_else lived during the time of Imam as-Sadiq(A)'s life; during (approximately) 83AH to 148AH. A period of 65 years. If Someone_else the son of another_someone_else was around anytime during this period; and was in the same region as Imam as-Sadiq(A) during this region, then it is not unreasonable to suggest that he did indeed hear this from Imam as-Sadiq(A), as he was a contempoary and lived in the vicinity of as-Sadiq(A).

Again; if you look at how the conditional thought process is functioning; like the Qurainic Pass; this is also a logic tree; using basic logic rules to sift out the truth from the falsehood.

If for example; Someone_else the son of another_someone_else did indeed live during the time of as-Sadiq(A), but that he was constantly in what is now called Morocco; and never came to Madinah; there is a high possibility that his claim to have heard this from as-Sadiq(A) is unreliable; however; it is possible that he had sent a message to as-Sadiq(A) by horse courier (there wasn't any internet or email capability in those times sadly); as a result; one must examine the life of as-Sadiq(A) and examine if there was a courier from Moroco that came to the Imam(A) at any stage during his life; if there was; then there is a higher possibility of what Someone_else the son of another_someone_else is saying being true; however if there isn't any record of such an event; then it is safe to assume that Someone_else the son of another_someone_else is mistake; or that during the transmission of this hadeeth a link in the chain has been missed out - which again needs examinination; and could have been done by the primary narrator Someone son of Someone else; perhaps to raise the profile of their father; and give the impression that they were a contemporay in the same location or in direct contact with as-Sadiq(A); or that simply Someone son of Someone else has forgotten and made a mistake.

This is where the pathway gets complicated; and the scientist needs to examine in great depth; just like with the brief illustration we did of the Quranic pathway (see above); this "Narrator Pathway" is just as complicated; infact more complicated; since you have verify against other material that in turn has to be verified; and so on and so-forth.

Naturally there are other elements to the entire validation process; such as the issue of concensus, the issue of tawatur (well known, commonly accepted, etc) and many many more; all I wanted to do was to illustrate; using Quranic proofs; the reasoning behind the extensive requirement for validation of every hadeeth that is used in creating fatawi; and to advise my dear brethren who wish to produce and provide an "Akhabri-esqe" Tawzih al-Masail (which as I have explained previously is a somewhat oxy-moronic concept in itself).

While I agree, that the books of Rijaal are themselves subject to being doubtful; it is better to err on the side of caution and examine them; as well as each and every ahadeeth on a given concept (such as for example palms on the thighs in qiyaam in prayer as in our example), prior to being in a position to give a valid ruling on whether said activity is permitted, recomended, required, neutral, reprehensible, forbidden, etc.

It is very dangerous to attempt to self-create fatawi; and requires that the person has a deep understanding of Quran, Qurnaic Arabic, Ahadeeth, History, Cross-Referencing of Ahadeeth Against History Against Ahadeeth Against Quran; resulting in an amazing large amount of refernence data - this is not even examining other more advanced "Usuli" concepts such as baseline Usul Fiqh; Mantiq, Tafseer, Tareekh, etc. This is purely for what would be required from an "Akhbari" point of view (or should I say a neo-Akhbari point of view).

I would advise my brethren who wish to engage in this extremely detailed and complex task; to first provide detailed biographies of the people who will be collaborating on this "Neo-Akhbari Tawzih al-Masail" and what their qualifications are, so as to engender a sense of confidence in the readers.

While I appreciate that you might suggest that there were those who were learned who rejected the concept of struggle; but since the concept of struggle (al-ijtihaad) is from Quran; it would seem that you are saying that some Ulema (allegedly) rejected Ijtihaad - this would require them to reject the Quran; which would logically result in them ceasing to be Ulema (since in rejecting Quran they would become Juhala), therefore, it is the opinion of this small student that you are in-fact quite confused about this concept.

With regard to the principle of Ijtihaad in Islam; perhaps you would benifit from reading the words of the great Marytred Alem, Ayatullah Shaheed Murtadha Mutahhari(RA); in his paper entitled "The Principle of Ijtihad in Islam" - while I appreciated that Shaykh Mutahhari(RA) comes from an Usuli background and it would be quite open minded of you to refute his short article prior to engaging in such a massive venture such as your "Neo-Akhbari Tawzih al-Masail" - or you could perhaps attempt to refute what I am saying.

You can find the article by Shaheed Mutahhari(RA) in English (I do not know how good your Arabic or Persian linguistic prowess is) at: http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/ijtihad.htm.

I await your reply; (when I refer in the first person; I am talking to my respected brother "Siyyid Zuhair Naqvi" (is this a typo - should it be Sayyed - the word Siyyid is an invalid conjuction linguistically - and hence provide my primary evidence for your lack of knowledge in terms of Arabic linguistics).

Insha Allah this helps, and I appologise in advance for the length and complexity of this post; but I wish to illustrate that extracting fatawi from the original sources is not child's play; but a complex art (or science), that requires decades of preparation, education, and a plethora of mandatory skillset requirements, none of which can be obtained by a fallible person in a very short time-span, but require many decades of hard and detailed study, before even contemplating moving towards that pathway.

It is also dangerous to rely on limited knowledge of a subject when making such grandious claims on it; as this can also lead to massive confusion and ultimately misguidance - as explained; Shaytaan is working on every possible angle to make humanity confused and misguided.

It is important to remember and reflect upon this.

With Salaams and Dua's

Shabbir

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We have decided to start working in this direction and our goal is to use the existing works ..We have decided to use the exact same format as that of the tawzeeh of contemporary maraje, since the majority are acquainted to that format.

(salam)

It's a total waste of time. And plagrism will get you nowhere.

BTW, what is your qualification? Education and Experience?

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(salam)

It's a total waste of time. And plagrism will get you nowhere.

BTW, what is your qualification? Education and Experience?

They don't even know Arabic (and if they do, it's elementary). They're going to base their things on partial Indian translations of Shi'i hadith books.

That's how these malangs work.

Edited by Hezbullahi

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In His Name, the Most High

Salam

I must just say ahsantum Shaykh Shabbir for your efforts in trying to explain the matter in a clear and fruitful way. I always enjoy reading your posts and this was indeed no exception. May the ink you have spilled in the way of Allah be returned to you in the form of light on the Day when darkness will surround many souls, Illahi Ameen.

Salam

Ehsan

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Bismillah

Assalam o Alaikum

Present Day Akhbaries claim loudly that Baqar Majlisi (ar) was also an Akhbari.

But this is totally wrong.

One proof that Baqar Majlisi has nothing to do with Akhbarism is that he wrote "Miraat-ul-Uqool", where he categorized the Ahadith of "Al-Kafi" as "Sahih", "Dhaeef", "Hassan"........ And he did all this work on bases of "Ilm-ul-Rajal".

Now according to Akhbaries, this "Ilm-ul-Rajal" is only an "Usooli Bidah" (i.e. Usooli Innovation).

Similarly, Akhbaries also claim there is no "Sahih" "Hassan" or "Dhaeef" hadith and all these things are also innovations of Usoolies.

So, I wonder how still Akhbaries could claim that Mullah Baqar Majlisi was an Akhbari?

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Assalam Alaikum

Shabbir Hassan. Your post is .......... (fill in the blank with good words of your choice). Are you a Mujtahid? If not how did you get that vast amount of knowledge? I was thinking of going for Ijtehad but from your post, I must say I have been put off a great deal.

:(

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(salam)

dear shaykh shabbir May Allah(swt) bless u, thank you so much, Allah(swt) has blessed us at shiachat with your presence.

Bismillah

Assalam o Alaikum

Present Day Akhbaries claim loudly that Baqar Majlisi (ar) was also an Akhbari.

But this is totally wrong.

One proof that Baqar Majlisi has nothing to do with Akhbarism is that he wrote "Miraat-ul-Uqool", where he categorized the Ahadith of "Al-Kafi" as "Sahih", "Dhaeef", "Hassan"........ And he did all this work on bases of "Ilm-ul-Rajal".

Now according to Akhbaries, this "Ilm-ul-Rajal" is only an "Usooli Bidah" (i.e. Usooli Innovation).

Similarly, Akhbaries also claim there is no "Sahih" "Hassan" or "Dhaeef" hadith and all these things are also innovations of Usoolies.

So, I wonder how still Akhbaries could claim that Mullah Baqar Majlisi was an Akhbari?

(salam)

dear sister, thank you so much for this info, inshallah the akhbaris will finally admit defeat lol i had no idea about such a work by allamah majalis (ra) is "miraat-ul-uqool" available anywhere?

ws

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Bismillah

Assalam o Alaikum

Present Day Akhbaries claim loudly that Baqar Majlisi (ar) was also an Akhbari.

But this is totally wrong.

One proof that Baqar Majlisi has nothing to do with Akhbarism is that he wrote "Miraat-ul-Uqool", where he categorized the Ahadith of "Al-Kafi" as "Sahih", "Dhaeef", "Hassan"........ And he did all this work on bases of "Ilm-ul-Rajal".

Now according to Akhbaries, this "Ilm-ul-Rajal" is only an "Usooli Bidah" (i.e. Usooli Innovation).

Similarly, Akhbaries also claim there is no "Sahih" "Hassan" or "Dhaeef" hadith and all these things are also innovations of Usoolies.

So, I wonder how still Akhbaries could claim that Mullah Baqar Majlisi was an Akhbari?

(salam)

You're making the mistake of thinking all those called "akhbari" are one particular mindset, but this isn't the case.

On the one hand you would have what you might term, total akhbari (or something akin) such as Mulla Amin Astarabadi. This would represent one tendency. On the other, you would have some such as Shaykh Yusuf al-Bahrani who would represent a more moderate stance. (I don't want either term to come across as polemical though.)

`Allama Majlisi represented an attempt to synthesize what he saw as the best from both approaches, Usooli and Akhbari. Correct, his sharh on al-Kafi did classify hadith into the various divisions, but this does not mean he completely subscribed to the Usooli methodology of fiqh (nor does it mean the opposite.)

I think you've also misunderstood the akhbari approach to authenticating hadith. What they generally reject is the fourfold division of sound, good, reliable and weak. They point out that a hadith is either one you may act upon, or not, hence they instead classify hadiths simply along the lines of sound (sahih) and weak (da`if). They point out that the fourfold division was something unknown to the earlier `ulama and that it's introduction came relatively later.

A sahih hadith is that which is proven to come from the Ma`sum, and the proof of establish this is that it is either come down via successive transmission, or that it is a single narration which has been authenticated via complimentary evidence such as agreement with the Quran or consensus, agreement with other hadith, and other means as detailed by Shaykh Tusi, or that it have come from the reliable "usool" works from the time of the appearance of the Imams. Anything else that wouldn't meet this criteria is classified as 'weak'.

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Assalam Alaikum

Shabbir Hassan. Your post is .......... (fill in the blank with good words of your choice). Are you a Mujtahid? If not how did you get that vast amount of knowledge? I was thinking of going for Ijtehad but from your post, I must say I have been put off a great deal.

:(

In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

No I am not a Mujtahed, far from it; however, I have spent a fair amount of time at the Islamic Seminary in Qum and elsewhere.

You suggest that you were going for the Ijtihad approach, do you mean that you want to reach a level where you perform your own Ijtihad come out with your own rulings and as a result of such you follow yourself? If that is the cause I applaud you and caution you at the same time. Reason?

To reach such a level, you must study in Islam and many many related sciences to a very high level, to compare against a secular background, you would have to study Arabic Eloquance to an effective Ph.D level, Arabic Rhetoric to Ph.D, Quranic Exegsis (Tafseer) to Ph.D, Usul al-Figh (The Principles of Jurisprudence) to Ph.D, Logic and Mathematics to Ph.D, etc

The road to Ijtihad is very very long, and therefore; prior to reaching said noble goal, one would have no choice but to follow another who has already reached the level of Ijtihad, since you can only start making Taqleed of yourself (doing your own Ijtihad effectively) once you have completed your studies to a satisfactory level.

It is possible that prior to reaching the level of Ijtihad you might perhaps act upon Ihtiyaat, where everything is acted on as a precaution, however this has it's own pitfalls, and dangers, and my sincere advise to you brother is that you do the follow, but first I must explain the context of what I'm saying so please bear with me.

In Islam there are two pathways; the pathway that is Usul (or Aqaid) and the pathway of Furu'. In terms of Taqleed/Ijtihad/etc these only really apply to Furu - Islamic Laws, Jurisprudencial concepts and rulings. However, for the Usul or Aqaid, it is vital that the individual understands and appreciates them fully, tearing apart any doubts, issues, questions, problems they may or may not have with said concepts.

Now; within the Muslim Ummah, we are blessed with a healthy number of Mujtahedeen (Jurists), who can be followed for matters relating to Islamic Law, Figh - things that make up the Furu'.

I would advise the following.

If you focus your efforts on studying the Usul/Aqaid portions, understanding concepts to a high level of detail such as Tawheed, Adalah, Nubuwwah, Imamah, Qiyamah, and the finer nicities of each of these concepts and their sub-concepts, this would be far more useful for you; you can follow an existing Marja' Taqleed on issues of Furu', and allow yourself to learn more about the core concepts of believe; allow yourself to learn more about Tawheed, about Allah, and ultimately, with the help of Allah and striving hard, you will reach a level of love with Allah, you will fall in love with Allah, and that is a turning point; where everything becomes easy.

I will stop here, as this discussion can get quite lengthy, and I have already digressed from the subject of this thread, but since you had said what you had said, I felt compelled to respond.

Insha Allah this helps you.

With Salaams and Dua's

Shabbir

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In His Name, the Most High

Salam

I must just say ahsantum Shaykh Shabbir for your efforts in trying to explain the matter in a clear and fruitful way. I always enjoy reading your posts and this was indeed no exception. May the ink you have spilled in the way of Allah be returned to you in the form of light on the Day when darkness will surround many souls, Illahi Ameen.

Salam

Ehsan

I just wanted to second this. Masha'Allah wah wah. Ahsant Hazrat Mulla Sheikh Shabbir (HA). Outstanding replies.

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Asalamalaikum,

Seems no one is buying your idea zohaer.

2:44 Do you bid other people to be pious, the while you forget your own selves -and yet you recite the divine writ? Will you not, then, use your reason?

Atamuroona alnnasa bialbirri watansawna anfusakum waantum tatloona alkitaba afala taAAqiloona

ÃóÊóÃúãõÑõæäó ÇáäøóÇÓó ÈöÇáúÈöÑøö æóÊóäÓóæúäó ÃóäÝõÓóßõãú æóÃóäÊõãú ÊóÊúáõæäó ÇáúßöÊóÇÈó ÃóÝóáÇó ÊóÚúÞöáõæäó

Imam Jaffer Sadiq (as) said “Aql is that only, through which one worships Allah and gets heaven”.

Take care and all the best

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(bismillah)

(salam)

oh yes i remember that topic where bro sayyid zuhair naqvi wanted to write his own risalah.

the topic died a natural death when bro shabbir pointed out to him that he had not even got the spelling of his

own name correct.

the search feature is still not fully upto form, once it is the topic will be highlighted.

enough for bro sayyid

(wasalam)

Some people never run out of off-topic ideas, in any case, I dont want to leave it unanswered. Pronunciation of an arabic word in english can lead to a number of spellings, but you're right I cant spell my name correctly but wouldn't that also apply to these personalities?

Sayyid Ali Husaini Sistani - http://www.sistani.org/local.php?modules=nav&nid=1

Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah - http://english.bayynat.org.lb/

Syed Aqeel-ul-Gharavi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syed_Aqeel-ul-Gharavi

Sayyed Ali Khamenei - http://english.khamenei.ir//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=57&Itemid=20

Ofcourse it does NOT, and you only showed your ignorance from that comment.

And, I didnt want to publish my risalah - I was looking for risalah of an akhbari marja or alternatively collect ahadith with sanad on ibadaat. And behamdillah I found the Risalah of Shaikh Hurr Al Ameli (ar) and it's called Bedayat al-hidaya.

_____________________________________________

Can I request you and others on this thread to not go off-topic unnecessarily?

(bismillah)

(salam)

we shall have to wait for the search feature to become fully operational, won't we.

(wasalam)

You don't need to, an easier way to find my post on SC is to google "site:shiachat.com zuhair_naqvi" - go for your life mate :-)

(bismillah)

(salam)

decorum prevents me from saying too much to my brother SIYYID but then this is the exclusive preserve of these pseudo akhbariis(99.999999999999% indo pakistanis of which 85% if not more pakistanis). The post says it all and is a most interesting read.

I pray my brother SIYYID starts to move in the right direction.

The likes of him are harming and hurting us, may Allah(swt) behaqe muhammad and ali muhammad(as) guide him and them.

(wasalam)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

decorum prevents me from saying too much to my brother SIYYID but then this is the exclusive preserve of these pseudo akhbariis(99.999999999999% indo pakistanis of which 85% if not more pakistanis). The post says it all and is a most interesting read.

I pray my brother SIYYID starts to move in the right direction.

The likes of him are harming and hurting us, may Allah(swt) behaqe muhammad and ali muhammad(as) guide him and them.

(wasalam)

Very impressive memory haideriam, considering this post was nearly 3 years ago! I'm certainly not that sharp at quoting myself verbatim of hundreds of my posts over years.

Also, I find your fixation with a spelling, that too in transliteration somewhat humorous.

You have constructed a stereotype of assuming akhbaris happen to be in indo-pak only I dont know if this is racially motivated or just from your ignorance but you should do your homework on demographics of akhbari imamis. I've lived in Bahrain for a year and half and 70% of arab shias I happened to have met there were Akhbaris and behamdillah there are quite a few in Medina too.

In regards to a Risalah, I have since then found Bidayat al Hidaya to be very resourceful and sufficient so far... But thank you for reminding readers that I did try to collect Aqwaalil Masoomeen years ago and that I have been sincere in my intentions all along - Qala Rasoolallah (sawas): Innamal amaalo binniyaat

Inshallah Imam (ajf) will guide us all.

Wasalam

Edited by zuhair_naqvi

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Salaams,

I cannot speak of the methodology this brother and those working on this work are employing as such. However the premise of your post is flawed in that would imply that the Akhbari scholars (by that I'm referring to scholars such as Hurr al-`Amili, Shaykh Yusuf al-Bahrani, or even the Kirmani Shaykhiyya (who weren't strictly "akhbari" as such)) had no methodology in determining their fatawa, or any manner in resolving the apparent contradictions in the riwaya. This isn't true, they did have such methods, but they tried to base their understanding on what has been brought down to us from the Imams themselves, and not in borrowing methodologies from the Zaidis and Shafi`is.

For instance, authenticating hadiths amongst usoolis largely is an exercise in determining the "sihhat" of the isnad (or least this is a primary factor). This is done by consulting what the books of rijal say about so and so narrators. First off, this is apparently a Zaidi innovation, it wasn't something that was practiced as such amongst the early `ulema. Second, why should we trust the authenticity of what the rijal books tell us? Why are they to be considered reliable whereas the hadith books are not? Is it because they're supposedly consistent? Well, they aren't, the rijal books are chock full of contradictions about individual narrators. Why should we trust them then so much to reject the hadith on their basis?

At any rate, it isn't relevant as we can see that the Imams taught us not to look to the one who was narrating, but rather what they were saying, such as "Accept what they narrate, reject what they believe" (about the fathiyya), "Do not look at who says, but what he says" and "Do not reject a hadith, even if it comes from one of the khawarij." It is thus on the basis of the matn of the hadith that a hadith is to be evaluated (if I can use such a term). Does it agree with the Quran? If not, reject it. Does it agree with the ijma` of the Sunnis, whereas another disagrees? Turn to the second. There is a methodology here (I've not laid it all out).

Now you might say, well this is a form of ijtihad then. If by ijtihad you simply means a scholar doing research, well ok, but historically this isn't all what the term ijtihad meant in a fiqhi context. As such, we know that the early `ulema firmly rejected the concept, and later on, the "Akhbaris" continued this.

MacIsaac, do you still believe in what you stated here?

I would like to discuss what changed your mind if it did.

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haideriam, on 14 November 2009 - 10:09 PM, said:

(bismillah)

(salam)

oh yes i remember that topic where bro sayyid zuhair naqvi wanted to write his own risalah.

the topic died a natural death when bro shabbir pointed out to him that he had not even got the spelling of his

own name correct.

the search feature is still not fully upto form, once it is the topic will be highlighted.

enough for bro sayyid

(wasalam)

View Postzuhair_naqvi, on 14 November 2009 - 10:31 PM, said:

Some people never run out of off-topic ideas, in any case, I dont want to leave it unanswered. Pronunciation of an arabic word in english can lead to a number of spellings, but you're right I cant spell my name correctly but wouldn't that also apply to these personalities?

Sayyid Ali Husaini Sistani - http://www.sistani.o...dules=nav&nid=1

Sayyed Muhammad Hussein Fadlullah - http://english.bayynat.org.lb/

Syed Aqeel-ul-Gharavi http://en.wikipedia....qeel-ul-Gharavi

Sayyed Ali Khamenei - http://english.khame...id=57&Itemid=20

Ofcourse it does NOT, and you only showed your ignorance from that comment.

And, I didnt want to publish my risalah - I was looking for risalah of an akhbari marja or alternatively collect ahadith with sanad on ibadaat. And behamdillah I found the Risalah of Shaikh Hurr Al Ameli (ar) and it's called Bedayat al-hidaya.

_____________________________________________

Can I request you and others on this thread to not go off-topic unnecessarily?

View Posthaideriam, on 14 November 2009 - 10:37 PM, said:

(bismillah)

(salam)

we shall have to wait for the search feature to become fully operational, won't we.

(wasalam)

View Postzuhair_naqvi, on 14 November 2009 - 10:42 PM, said:

You don't need to, an easier way to find my post on SC is to google "site:shiachat.com zuhair_naqvi" - go for your life mate :-)

(bismillah)

(salam)

decorum prevents me from saying too much to my brother SIYYID but then this is the exclusive preserve of these pseudo akhbariis(99.999999999999% indo pakistanis of which 85% if not more pakistanis). The post says it all and is a most interesting read.

I pray my brother SIYYID starts to move in the right direction.

The likes of him are harming and hurting us, may Allah(swt) behaqe muhammad and ali muhammad(as) guide him and them.

That is seriously funny. I actually laughed loudly.

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