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In the Name of God بسم الله

Perfection In Design?

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salam,

If God is perfect, does that mean that all of his creations (mankind, animals, universe....etc) are also perfect?

If yes, then how do we answer this: (from wikipedia, Source)

Inconsistencies in the 'Design' of the Universe

Whilst the Universe may at first seem be purposeful and ordered, upon closer inspection its true function becomes questionable. Scientists such as Richard Dawkins attack the claim that the Universe serves any actual function, claiming that the Universe merely 'mimics' purpose. For example, predators seem perfectly 'designed' to catch their prey, whilst their prey seem equally well 'designed' to evade them. Likewise, noticeable inconsistencies in the design of organisms have been brought to attention by critics of the teleological argument, such as the wasteful method of urea disposal utilized by humans, as well as the structure of the human spine (brought about by the human transition from quadrupedalism to standing erect), which cause problems for many humans to this day. Scholars use such arguments to point towards natural selection as a 'blind' biological designer, as opposed to God.

This has been bugging me for some time now... :unsure:

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  • Advanced Member
salam,

If God is perfect, does that mean that all of his creations (mankind, animals, universe....etc) are also perfect?

If yes, then how do we answer this: (from wikipedia, Source)

This has been bugging me for some time now... :unsure:

Bismillah,

AOA,

Insh'Allah, I pray that I can clear your confusion.

Indeed Allah (swt) is Absolutely Perfect and thus everything He creates is perfect and is perfectly created. In relation to the issue at hand we must first understand perfection. How can perfection be measured? Who can judge what is perfect and what is not? By what ruler or gage can we measure perfection?

The passage above talks about how certain people feel that certain things in creation have no purpose. Isn't it the case that humans are limited by their five sense and intellect? If your friend dies tomorrow, you will feel sad and maybe feel like the world is unfair. But what if by your friend dieing you become a stronger person? Now, you , in your limited scope thought that your friend dieing was a bad thing. However, when you view the big picture you friend dieing brought about more good than bad. Thus, we know that man loves to measure things by his own limited ruler. So I ask you a question, who is in the better position to judge what is perfect, the limited human being or Allah (swt) who has the ultimate ruler, and can see the bigger picture? So, just because these scientists cannot find any purpose in certain things, does that mean that it is true? What if they cannot see the whole picture yet? So many a times science believes one thing and then upon newer discoveries it changes its belief. For example, at one time, we thought the world was flat, then science discovered it to be false. So for now they may not be able to see the purpose in these things, does that mean that there is no purpose? Perhaps they cannot see the purpose because they are limited or maybe because they have not discovered it yet.

Infact, in the passage above they say the structure of the spine isn't perfect because it causes pain to human beings. So does that mean that if the spine is created weak and causes pain for human beings, that the spine is imperfect? First, we have to realize that we are not living in heaven. Allah (swt) has placed on this earth as a trial and there will be joy and pain, right and wrong. This world is a test and there are meant to be hardships. So, the fact that our bodies are weak and cause us pain is in line with the purpose of this world. Allah (swt) has created us weak, so that we may realize His greatness. Once we look at ourselves, and how weak and needy we are, we realize how much more we need Him. So there is much wisdom in Allah (swt) creating us the way He did, but at times our limitations do not allow us to see this.

I hope this helps and others benefit.

Ma'Salaama

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  • Advanced Member

Bismillah,

AOA,

Insh'Allah, I pray that I can clear your confusion.

Indeed Allah (swt) is Absolutely Perfect and thus everything He creates is perfect and is perfectly created. In relation to the issue at hand we must first understand perfection. How can perfection be measured? Who can judge what is perfect and what is not? By what ruler or gage can we measure perfection?

The passage above talks about how certain people feel that certain things in creation have no purpose. Isn't it the case that humans are limited by their five sense and intellect? If your friend dies tomorrow, you will feel sad and maybe feel like the world is unfair. But what if by your friend dieing you become a stronger person? Now, you , in your limited scope thought that your friend dieing was a bad thing. However, when you view the big picture you friend dieing brought about more good than bad. Thus, we know that man loves to measure things by his own limited ruler. So I ask you a question, who is in the better position to judge what is perfect, the limited human being or Allah (swt) who has the ultimate ruler, and can see the bigger picture? So, just because these scientists cannot find any purpose in certain things, does that mean that it is true? What if they cannot see the whole picture yet? So many a times science believes one thing and then upon newer discoveries it changes its belief. For example, at one time, we thought the world was flat, then science discovered it to be false. So for now they may not be able to see the purpose in these things, does that mean that there is no purpose? Perhaps they cannot see the purpose because they are limited or maybe because they have not discovered it yet.

Infact, in the passage above they say the structure of the spine isn't perfect because it causes pain to human beings. So does that mean that if the spine is created weak and causes pain for human beings, that the spine is imperfect? First, we have to realize that we are not living in heaven. Allah (swt) has placed on this earth as a trial and there will be joy and pain, right and wrong. This world is a test and there are meant to be hardships. So, the fact that our bodies are weak and cause us pain is in line with the purpose of this world. Allah (swt) has created us weak, so that we may realize His greatness. Once we look at ourselves, and how weak and needy we are, we realize how much more we need Him. So there is much wisdom in Allah (swt) creating us the way He did, but at times our limitations do not allow us to see this.

I pray this helps,

Ma'Salaama

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  • Advanced Member
salam,

If God is perfect, does that mean that all of his creations (mankind, animals, universe....etc) are also perfect?

If yes, then how do we answer this: (from wikipedia, Source)

This has been bugging me for some time now... :unsure:

Bismillah,

AOA,

Insh'Allah, I pray that I can clear your confusion.

Indeed Allah (swt) is Absolutely Perfect and thus everything He creates is perfect and is perfectly created. In relation to the issue at hand we must first understand perfection. How can perfection be measured? Who can judge what is perfect and what is not? By what ruler or gage can we measure perfection?

The passage above talks about how certain people feel that certain things in creation have no purpose. Isn't it the case that humans are limited by their five sense and intellect? If your friend dies tomorrow, you will feel sad and maybe feel like the world is unfair. But what if by your friend dieing you become a stronger person? Now, you , in your limited scope thought that your friend dieing was a bad thing. However, when you view the big picture you friend dieing brought about more good than bad. Thus, we know that man loves to measure things by his own limited ruler. So I ask you a question, who is in the better position to judge what is perfect, the limited human being or Allah (swt) who has the ultimate ruler, and can see the bigger picture? So, just because these scientists cannot find any purpose in certain things, does that mean that it is true? What if they cannot see the whole picture yet? So many a times science believes one thing and then upon newer discoveries it changes its belief. For example, at one time, we thought the world was flat, then science discovered it to be false. So for now they may not be able to see the purpose in these things, does that mean that there is no purpose? Perhaps they cannot see the purpose because they are limited or maybe because they have not discovered it yet.

Infact, in the passage above they say the structure of the spine isn't perfect because it causes pain to human beings. So does that mean that if the spine is created weak and causes pain for human beings, that the spine is imperfect? First, we have to realize that we are not living in heaven. Allah (swt) has placed on this earth as a trial and there will be joy and pain, right and wrong. This world is a test and there are meant to be hardships. So, the fact that our bodies are weak and cause us pain is in line with the purpose of this world. Allah (swt) has created us weak, so that we may realize His greatness. Once we look at ourselves, and how weak and needy we are, we realize how much more we need Him. So there is much wisdom in Allah (swt) creating us the way He did, but at times our limitations do not allow us to see this.

I hope this helps,

Ma'Salaama

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(bismillah)

Salaamun alaykum

Insh i hope you are well!

The Quran regards the world to be perfect when it says in sura mulk verses 3 & 4

"...you see no incongruity in the creation of the Beneficent Allah; then look again, can you see any disorder?

Then turn back the eye again and again; your look shall come back to you confused while it is fatigued." [shakir]

Even according to the scientists the human went through a natural selection process and has thus dominated the world through adapting quicker then other animals.

The straightening of the spine was probably the most instrumental part of this evolution, so how can they criticise the very crux of their own idea?

As for the urea disposal, it may be inefficient from one perspective, but if we were to look again there are probably many areas of this system that are advantageous compared to other systems, even if it is the fact that humans will recognise their weakness as they keep having to go to the toilet whenever they are going to do something important, like take an exam!

By profession i am an accountant:) Part of my work is checking that people have prepared their accounts correctly. When you are looking for mistakes you will always find something. However when it comes to the world, whenever we find a seeming mistake there is an explanation.

But if you look at the idea of a "blind"biological designer, is it really an explanation? If it is an overall order in the universe then that is what we also think about the prefection of Gods creation.

If it is random then where is the explaination? Randomness is not an explaination! If i purpsefully hit you, and you ask me why i did that, and is say "random" would you be satisfied that i gave you a good explaination?

To understand the perspective of these people a bit of background on the develpoment of science and its philosophical underpinnings is important.

In the West science has developed on the pre assumtion that God and science are detached. That is you either believe that God has created everything and is the explanation for all phenomina or you believe that there is a rational expaination.

This came about as the Church took certain positions about science and called everthing else out of the bounds of religion. However with time those positions were proved incorrect scientifically.

A scientist therefore argues against those people who despite these scientific positions still believes in God.

However Islam has never detached science from God.In fact the word for science in the Islamic world is the same as that for knowledge (ilm) as the Quran itself tells man to look around him and discover the greatness of his Creator.

Throughout the centuries there have been rich spiritual tradtions based around God. The new age scientists throw away all of this built up heritage in one go while science cannot explain many things.

Do you know that science is experimental in its nature? That is that it can only have an authoritative understanding of physical things. Science cannot explain pain to you. It can tell you which chemical causes pain and what will cause that chemical to flow. But it cant tell you about pain itself.

So where is the authority of science to talk about the higher understandings of existence? If it can't tell you about pain can it disprove the existence of God?

Many times in my life i have had to question things about God. But what i found after a while is that God exists without doubt. It is just that sometimes the undestanding that i have of God is not correct and when i find an inconsistency i have to change my understanding, rather than change that overall belief as to whether God exists or not.

Insh hope that helps!

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Revolutionary Guard I think your view of "perfection" is severely flawed; since when did perfection come to mean, an instant existent magnificently arrayed without so much as a minutia of fault? To my mind*, if I say something is good or perfect, I mean to say that it is precisely adapted to its specified purpose---a perfect kiss upon my neck, a perfect lap in the pool, a perfect scent laced throughout the breeze---in other words: things are good within an ambit of their respective efficiency and adaptability to their purposes. A thing is perfect if it is exactly adapted to its purpose. So, who is to say that flaws may not be part of an entities overall purpose? What of progress, increase, improvement, growth, betterment, mystery and hence the possibility of discovery? How could any of the aforementioned exist, if every thing was fixed irrevocably from the dawn of humanity? The fact is that the majority of our hope, our joy, our romance and the sources of all of the above, stem from some flaw or another. For if there is not something lacking, then there is nothing to hope for. And without ignorance, what room would remain for discovery? Or if there was no pain, then how would any sensation be qualitatively different from pleasure?

Flaws are the key to perfection; especially in nature---as the underlying purpose of all within the grand gestalt of the cosmos, is to change(evolve)ever toward perfection. The Universe is a work in progress; a mere cast in moulding, not yet a sculpture...a mere half covered canvass, not a full fledged masterpiece as of this moment...a quarter covered score, destined to be: a masterly marvelous symphony---yes! All of these monumental projects, dynamic and dramatically in One, constantly moving in all restlessness towards the fulmination of finality, the be and end of it all. . .Or perhaps Claudels example may come across as more mundane. The Universe is a Grand laboratory; wherein Prakriti(nature personified)works: open ovens, supine scales, broad baths, sands and salts---she employs whatever she so wills as she fits and fashions, molds and modifies, all that she has been afforded with. Prodigality is the mark of progress and a pinch of affliction is the herald of pleasure. . .How fortunate we are to have so many faults composing the very fabric of our reality! How else would we possibly be rendered able, in virtue of par taking of the creative process? The objections raised are thus misplaced or, to be fair, aimed at a rather odd idea of design and of perfection alike. In any case they are ineffectual with respect to the aforesaid, which is, I suppose a more "European Catholic" understanding of the total macrocosm.

*Paul Claudel, in his exchange with André Gide(page fifty three, in the letter entitled "Summary of all Christian doctrine"), pioneered and shaped the notion discussed above. Like so many of my beliefs, I was to find that my intuitions had been previously explored by far greater men than my, young, self.

Meilleurs Voeux

Edited by Servidor
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  • 4 weeks later...

Who are we to judge what's perfect and what's not?

Perfection is really upto interpretation isn't it.

That's why when atheists say that due to all the murder and rape creation isn't perfect

Fact is if this world was perfect then what would be the point of testing human beings at all.

Besides this world may not be perfect in our perspective but to God it may well be.

Edited by koroigetsuga
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(salam)

It has been a long time I haven't posted anything in here.

Perfection in design has always been a trouble some argument for me. Some ulemah say that the the design of universe is perfect but there is a fundamental problem with that. Let me lay it dawn for you all. Simply the argument is If God is perfect then what he creates is perfect, for example our body. But the problem is If we consider God as perfect then what he creates also has to be a god because they are also perfect.

God is perfect in every view. He will never die he is all powerful, all knowledgeable, and so on. That is why he is perfect. And now give me on human being whom has these attributes or at least one of them. If we call God perfect because of all of his attributes then how can we call the creation perfect when it does not have all of these attributes??? I, myself, don't think that we are perfect.

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Who are we to judge what's perfect and what's not?

Perfection is really upto interpretation isn't it.

That's why when atheists say that due to all the murder and rape creation isn't perfect

Fact is if this world was perfect then what would be the point of testing human beings at all.

Besides this world may not be perfect in our perspective but to God it may well be.

It is the act of humanity from the free will, that lead to murder or rape someone. The matrials of the creations and the laws of the creations is perfect. Thats why all the creations of Materials which God created is perfect, but the free will of humanity is different, because it is your will to decide what you do.

It is like Mind is perfect creation, but to use it is inperfect :)

Edited by Zufa
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The argument from poor design or dysteleological argument is an argument against the existence of God, specifically against the existence of a creator God (in the sense of a God that directly created all species of life). It is based on the following premise:

An omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent creator God would create organisms that have optimal design.

Organisms have features that are suboptimal.

Therefore, God either did not create these organisms or is not omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.

Source:Wikipedia.

This is one of the argument that athiest use to prove their belief in the non existance of God.

This argument is so easily refuted that many of the top athiest debaters would never dare to use it against the design argument.

These are just some of the examples in "poor design".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_poor_design

First argument is that when an athiests gives an example of a "poor design" he automatically assumes that other than those design the other designs are perfect because there has to be something to compare the poor design to. So he contradicts himself into saying that there is no design in creation rather a series of natural events that we view as perfect.

Secondly the mere fact that we humans can distinguish imperfection makes us perfect. If the human brain wasnt a perfect design how would it distinguish perfection from imperfection or vice versa.

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First argument is that when an athiests gives an example of a "poor design" he automatically assumes that other than those design the other designs are perfect because there has to be something to compare the poor design to.

Just because a design is (apparently) poor does not necessarily mean other designs are perfect. Perfection is not the only other option. A ''poor design'' can be compared to a design that is good yet imperfect.

Secondly the mere fact that we humans can distinguish imperfection makes us perfect. If the human brain wasnt a perfect design how would it distinguish perfection from imperfection or vice versa.

That conclusion does not follow from that premise. A human brain doesn't need to be perfect in order to distinguish perfection from imperfection, it only needs to be somewhat functional. Moreover that argument is self-contradictory, for there needs to be imperfection in the first place if we have recognised/distinguished it.

....btw, that is the only post in this thread that I've read, so I apologise if what I've said has been stated before.

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ofcourse we are not perfect, the only perfect humans in this world are the infallible masummeen/prophets...

this source is wikipedia...wikipedia is made up of other peoples opinions and biases, for all you know the person who wrote this could be some christian!

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How can you tell perfection from imperfection in Creation?
It is like Mind is perfect creation, but to use it is inperfect smile.gif

Salaam Aleikum Gulliver, sorry this was my contradiction. Actually in islamic view it is said that:

[shakir 91:7] And the soul and Him Who made it perfect,

[shakir 91:8] Then He inspired it to understand what is right and wrong for it;

[shakir 91:9] He will indeed be successful who purifies it,

[shakir 91:10] And he will indeed fail who corrupts it.

Edited by Zufa
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  • Advanced Member
salam,

If God is perfect, does that mean that all of his creations (mankind, animals, universe....etc) are also perfect?

If yes, then how do we answer this: (from wikipedia, Source)

This has been bugging me for some time now... :unsure:

The Creation that perfectly recognises God is Perfect.

Allah says, "I was a hidden treasure, and I wished to be known, so I created a Creation, then made Myself known to Them, and They recognised Me."

Hadis e Qudsi

The element of cognition of Allah that resides in a soul is part of the Perfect Creation. The rest is the work of the strange phenomenon known as "Free Will".

Al-'Ijlouni says, "Al-Ghazali mentioned it in Ihya' 'Ulum al-Din with the wording, Allah says, "Neither My heaven nor My earth could contain Me, but the soft, humble heart of my believing Abd can contain Me."

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