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In the Name of God بسم الله

What Can I Do With My Areeza?

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Unity does not need the compromise of beliefs, only the respect of beliefs. So you dont have to give any importance to umar for a sunni brother/sister, you just shouldnt go yelling "lanat lanat!" like an animal who doesnt know how to use different sounds and words lol. You can simply tell them that you distance yourself from such people.

LOL. You contradicted your ownself.

Nobody does 'lanat lanat' in the way you have described, not that I know anyone who does anything like that. But nice, it's good to see people contradicting themselves.

And anyway, that was for forgeforth, who's been stressing that we are Muslim first and then Shi'a which even compelled him to make a poll about it. But it's not strange to see him reiterate that he is a Shi'a Muslim (first Shi'a and then Muslim even in his profile).

This in no way means that the Aimmah a.s. are all hearing or all seeing. No marja will tell you they are omnipresent, since that is equal to shirk according to Ayatollah al Khoei. If you ask with the right intention there is no problem.

Neither do we have the belief that Aimmah (A) are all-hearing and all-seeing and even if they are, then that power is solely from Allah (SWT). It's surprising though, you wouldn't blink to believe the same thing for Shaytan (LA).

Brother Jnoub Libnan, our belief is the same as yours. We ask the Ahlul Bayt (A) with the intention that they are not independent of Allah (SWT). That, they are dependent on Allah (SWT). Do you think this is right intention or not?

At least you accepted that it is okay to ask the Ahlul Bayt (A) with the right intention unlike some others here who don't even know what they are talking about.

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LOL. You contradicted your ownself.

Nobody does 'lanat lanat' in the way you have described, not that I know anyone who does anything like that. But nice, it's good to see people contradicting themselves.

(salam)

No i did not contradict myself. And yes some people do lanat like that, one example would be some of the posts on the shia/sunni discussion here. I would never recommend a sunni brother or sister to learn about shiism through this site.

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(salam)

Why we ask for intercession?

Rasul (pbuh) asked us to hold on "Qur'an and Ahlulbayt" if don't want to go astray / misguided.

Allah swt has already made Ahlulbayt (as) pure. And they are alive.

And we know if we hold on to Ahlulbayt, they will bring us with them to the siratul mustaqim...to Allah swt basically. Ahlulbayt will never bring us away from Allah swt.

And when we make solat, duas, hajat...we want them to be with us and we are with them, so that our solat, duas and hajat are accepted. Based of the logic that we have to hold on to Ahlulbayt so that we will not be misguided and they are pure and alive, we go through them and with their spiritual leadership (Imamat) to get our solat, duas, hajat to be accepted.

Others prefer to go and call upon directly to Allah (swt) with the belief that "no more connection" can be established with Ahlulbayt (as) except with whatever written teachings that available now.

It is a matter of choices.

A. Reaching Allah swt directly by our own virtues.

B. Reaching Allah swt with Ahlulbayt virtues.

If we take A, we try to get closer to Allah and there is a likelihood we may forget about Ahlulbayt (as).

If we take B, we try to get closer to Allah and the same time closer to Ahlulbayt (as). THere is NO likelihood that we may forget about Ahlulbayt. Basically make them our physical and spiritual leaders (seens and unseens).

Layman

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If we take A, we try to get closer to Allah and there is a likelihood we may forget about Ahlulbayt (as).

Layman

(salam) Brother layman,

Why would we go astray when we say salawat for them during our duas all the time? And when testifying to Allah their right over us "bi haqi muhammad wa alee muhammad" "bi haqi aliyin" etc..., You are forgetting that this is a way to use their power to get closer to Allah. And how can we forget Ahlul Bayt a.s. when reciting duas the way they taught us? And ill end this like we end the duas to Allah, Allah huma salli 3ala muhammad wa alee muhammad wa ysalimhom katheeran katheera :)

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Salam.

Okay first off, if you want me to reply, learn to use the quote tags. There is nothing more irritating than having to go through posts of people who don't use the quote tags properly. I will stop replying if you don't quote properly.

(salam)

I guess you have never made a single misstake yourself with these functions?

The Ahlul Bayt (as) indeed are the ONLY way to salvation. They have been likened to Noah's ark. Those who get on are saved and the rest are doomed. This is Imamat, one of the basic fundamentals, which according to you isn't really all that important.

(Refer )

Please quote me saying Imamate is not important. You seem very comfortable with the idea that only the shi'i people will be saved by Allah (swt) mercy, you realy think your that special dont you? Now where do you get of predicting that only shia muslims are the only people who are rightous in this time, this is an awful thing to believe. Salvation is for Allah (swt) to judge, and it is a very individual matter.

I don't believe that they are "manifestations of God". But yes, as stated in the hadith, the Imam (atfs) does know all about our lives.

So we must not only dread Allah Almighty, The Wise. But also Imams (af) since they know what dwells in our harts too. There goes any idea of privacy.

What do you mean by "directly" here?

Is it hard for you to understand. Its simple, call upon Jibrill (peace be with him) directly, directly, not through a mediator, or a messenger.

Nobody is ascribing partners to Allah (swt). We ask Allah (swt) but we go through the Ahlul Bayt (as). Like if I want something from my father and I know that he loves my baby sister too much to refuse anything she asks him for, I may ask my sister to put forth my request in front of my father. Does that mean that I feel she has the same authority or position as my father? Or am I just going to my father through his favorite child?

Yes, you can view it however you like. But if I am an admin for a website for instance, and I choose to hire three moderators, then one will conclude that these moderators where needed as help becasue the website was very busy (in normal cases). You the can argue that, it is not because of heavy traffic they where hired but because the clients believed they needed moderators, their service... (in our case). But all this is not valid when applied to Allah (swt). He does not grow weary nor is his mercy challenged by anyone (hope you believe this). Yet, the problem is not WHY they where hired, its is that they WHERE hired. The moderators ARE helpers. And in reality, in abundant truth, to someone who does not need help.

Think.

What is your take on Dua-e-Tawassul? Have you too thought up imaginary scholars who have rejected it as "unreliable".

Also what is your opinion on Shafa'?

I have said it many times and if you would read my post you would know that I have no problem with tawasul and I believe in shafa.

What I dont believe in is: ALI ALI HAYDAR! ALI ALI HAYDAR! YA ALI MADAD!!! YA ALI MADAD!!!!

everyday every place, can you see what I mean, im not trying to be funny here... for me this is very scary. It might be fine if your born in Mashad or whereever but for anyone else this is raging fanaticism, much of the reason many of our brothers and sister are dying every day in Iraq, who the hell cares about killing a mushriq shi'i right. But ofcourse they are wrong, however, I honestly see, regretably how they justify themselves (even if it be irrational and baseless). May Allah (swt) curse those murderers forever.

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(salam)

Please quote me saying Imamate is not important. You seem very comfortable with the idea that only the shi'i people will be saved by Allah (swt) mercy, you realy think your that special dont you? Now where do you get of predicting that only shia muslims are the only people who are rightous in this time, this is an awful thing to believe. Salvation is for Allah (swt) to judge, and it is a very individual matter.

LOL. I am not really all that smart so I cannot afford the luxury of making any predictions or passing any judgments. I just stick to what the Ahlul Bayt (as) have to say.

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) has said: The likeness of my Ahlul Bayt (as) amongst my ummah is similar to Noah's ark. Those who embarked on it were rescued and those who rejected it, perished. (Behar V 27, P 113)

So we must not only dread Allah Almighty, The Wise. But also Imams (af) since they know what dwells in our harts too. There goes any idea of privacy.

Well, that's hadith. Now it's up to you to accept it or reject it. Either way, a fact is a fact is a fact.

Yes, you can view it however you like. But if I am an admin for a website for instance, and I choose to hire three moderators, then one will conclude that these moderators where needed as help becasue the website was very busy (in normal cases). You the can argue that, it is not because of heavy traffic they where hired but because the clients believed they needed moderators, their service... (in our case). But all this is not valid when applied to Allah (swt). He does not grow weary nor is his mercy challenged by anyone (hope you believe this). Yet, the problem is not WHY they where hired, its is that they WHERE hired. The moderators ARE helpers. And in reality, in abundant truth, to someone who does not need help.

That's a rubbish example and not at all appropriate in this case. The Ahlul Bayt (as) were not "hired" to "help" Allah (swt) and I didn't say/imply that in any of my posts. Did you even bother to read my previous post properly?

I have said it many times and if you would read my post you would know that I have no problem with tawasul and I believe in shafa.

Okay.

What I dont believe in is: ALI ALI HAYDAR! ALI ALI HAYDAR! YA ALI MADAD!!! YA ALI MADAD!!!!

everyday every place, can you see what I mean, im not trying to be funny here... for me this is very scary. It might be fine if your born in Mashad or whereever but for anyone else this is raging fanaticism, much of the reason many of our brothers and sister are dying every day in Iraq, who the hell cares about killing a mushriq shi'i right. But ofcourse they are wrong, however, I honestly see, regretably how they justify themselves (even if it be irrational and baseless). May Allah (swt) curse those murderers forever.

No I cannot see what you mean :huh:

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(salam) Brother layman,

Why would we go astray when we say salawat for them during our duas all the time? And when testifying to Allah their right over us "bi haqi muhammad wa alee muhammad" "bi haqi aliyin" etc..., You are forgetting that this is a way to use their power to get closer to Allah. And how can we forget Ahlul Bayt a.s. when reciting duas the way they taught us? And ill end this like we end the duas to Allah, Allah huma salli 3ala muhammad wa alee muhammad wa ysalimhom katheeran katheera :)

(salam) Brother,

You are chosing B instead of A from my previous explanation. Then your duas will be answered with the recommendation of Ahlulbayt. You are right in mentioning the right of Ahlulbayt upon us.

Wahabbis and their followers choses A instead of B. They claim to remember Allah swt but forget about Ahlulbayt. Abu Bakr, Umar and their followers also did the same. They abandoned Rasul and Ahlulbayt. Muawiya and Yazid did claim to follow Allah swt but wanted to killed Ahlulbayt.

There are people in shiachat.com who promote us to distant ourselves from Ahlulbayt (as) by saying that Ahlulbayt (as) already dead long time ago and Imam Zaman can not be reached. They claim that to be closer to Ahlulbayt is only through teachings not spiritual closeness.

But when you said about "bi haqqi muhammad wa alee muhammad.." you are connected to them spiritually to Ahlulbayt. May all your prayers, ibadat and duas are accepted by Allah swt. This is the way to go...

When you read a dua through Ahlulbayt, your dua is like a scroll with a header and footer...the header is written "by recommendations of Muhammad wa aali Muhammad" and the footer is "signed by Muhammad wa aali Muhammad". That dua is full with Light and it will go straight to Allah swt.

Layman

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(salam)

LOL. I am not really all that smart so I cannot afford the luxury of making any predictions or passing any judgments. I just stick to what the Ahlul Bayt (as) have to say.

(salam)

lol? how am I not surprised that you take this lightly.

your quote:

The Holy Prophet has said: The likeness of my Ahlul Bayt amongst my ummah is similar to Noah's ark. Those who embarked on it were rescued and those who rejected it, perished. (Behar V 27, P 113)

This is clearly confined to the Islamic ummah. And even so it will always be a individual judgement. Be careful of what you say sister, or rather what you believe. Please, my humble request. Its not that im trying to patronize you or anything but, its a really harsh thing for a person to believe. Or do you have a light view of the eternal hellfire?

That's a rubbish example and not at all appropriate in this case. The Ahlul Bayt (as) were not "hired" to "help" Allah (swt) and I didn't say/imply that in any of my posts. Did you even bother to read my previous post properly?

Whats the flaw? Where does it become inappropriate? You say they where not hired, so they are no longer servants according to you either? They are no longer human beings who will enjoy rewards for their efforts? Do you suppose that it was their right beyond the wish of Allah (swt) to claim their places as Imams? I do not think so.

Okay.

No I cannot see what you mean :huh:

I give up.

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(salam)

No i did not contradict myself. And yes some people do lanat like that, one example would be some of the posts on the shia/sunni discussion here. I would never recommend a sunni brother or sister to learn about shiism through this site.

Lol, whatever you say. Though, it would be better if you learn to make distinctions between people/groups and then accordingly debate with them. If I would have to be like you, then I wouldn't hesitate to club you with Nasibis/Wahabbis/Salafis.

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(salam)

This is clearly confined to the Islamic ummah. And even so it will always be a individual judgement. Be careful of what you say sister, or rather what you believe. Please, my humble request. Its not that im trying to patronize you or anything but, its a really harsh thing for a person to believe.

Wha? So you agree that from the Islamic Ummah, only those who love the Ahlul Bayt (as) will go to Heaven, that's a hadith and you cannot blatantly disregard it so now you are trying to say that people not included in the Islamic Ummah (i.e. the kafirs) can go to heaven too? :!!!:

Or do you have a light view of the eternal hellfire?

No, I don't. But you definitely have a very light view of the importance of our Imams (as) in Islam.

Whats the flaw? Where does it become inappropriate? You say they where not hired, so they are no longer servants according to you either? They are no longer human beings who will enjoy rewards for their efforts? Do you suppose that it was their right beyond the wish of Allah (swt) to claim their places as Imams? I do not think so.

I don't know how you got the hired-fired bit in. Did you bother to read the example I gave?

Also I just wanted to clarify. When we say that the Ahlul Bayt (as) are "all knowing", we don't mean to say that they know as much as Allah (swt).

All knowledge is contained in two books. One is Ilmul Kitab and the other is Ummul Kitab. Ilmul Kitab contains the knowledge of the unseen and initial pre-destination and Imams (as) have "access" to this book but this Ilmul Kitab does not contain the knowledge of what will be changed (bada’). That is written in Ummul Kitab which is only for Allah (swt) and no one except him has access to it.

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(salam)

Wha? So you agree that from the Islamic Ummah, only those who love the Ahlul Bayt (as) will go to Heaven, that's a hadith and you cannot blatantly disregard it so now you are trying to say that people not included in the Islamic Ummah (i.e. the kafirs) can go to heaven too? :!!!:

DYING-CHILD_3.jpg

Yeah, a big sinner this one..

Photo2-Children-sm.jpg

this one is tough, he dosent even seem to able to know his name, good luck teaching him about Islam..

red_army_infantryman_fig5.jpg

He was just to busy I guess.. with saving the world from nazis and stuff

It can go on but I think you get the picture. Or if not I will give a last attempt. People are not always privileged with the best conditions and circumstances for faith in its purest form. Have you really never considered this? How is a person whom has never been given the seeds of faith ever grow its fruits. I was hoping that once I confronted you about your arrogance and naivety you would let it be and disregard this whole issue, now I see you do not, and even so accuse me of wanting to disregard traditions given to us by Rasul (pbuh). I am not well right now and it is a bit of a struggle for me to even sit by the computer, however I am not going to be rude and by that I guess it is better for me to pause our discussion untill I am more able.

Please sister, not everyone knows about Ahlul Bayt (as), even so not every one has a good understanding of Islam. Surely you know that Allah (swt) does not forgive atheist and polytheists. But surely also you know that not everyone who is non-muslim fit into those categories.

My regards

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Lol, whatever you say. Though, it would be better if you learn to make distinctions between people/groups and then accordingly debate with them. If I would have to be like you, then I wouldn't hesitate to club you with Nasibis/Wahabbis/Salafis.

(salam)

Why would you club me with nasibis wahabis or salafis? Did i show hate for Ahlul Bayt a.s.? Did i pass judgement on anybody here as being a kaffir? I know you're not saying im one of those 3 things, but to call me one of those things after reading what i have said would just be a lack of comprehending what is written here. I did not say that anybody in this thread acts like any of those who make people turn away from shiism, so please do not say " if i would have to be like you ..."

This thread seems to lack communication. We should try to see one anothers points from both sides rather than attack each other and not try to understand where someone is coming from. A lot of what is being discussed here just misunderstandings. On top of that we have people accusing each other of giving Ahlul Bayt a.s. less importance, nobody is in any position to do that since nobody in this thread has lowered the status of Ahlul Bayt a.s. or shown any lack of love for them.

Also sister Whizbee, I think salah means is that there are some people who are not shias that may be able to go to jannah. Not everybody has the oppurtunity to learn about faith in its purest form as he said. We should also consider the meaning of the word kufr - to WILLFULLY - reject.

From Ayatollah Fadlallahs website -

Q: What do Your Eminence think about the opinion that says that Allah (The Exalted) does not accept any good deed of any person who does not believe in Al-Wilayah (believing that the Allah has nominated Imam Ali (a.s.) to be the trustee and the caliph after the Prophet (p.)? 7/8/2006 11:07:49 AM

A: What is meant by this is that the one who knows about Willayah of Imam Ali (a.s.) and denies what the Prophet (p.) has announced in Allah’s name, out of stubbornness and disobedience, none of his good deeds will be accepted. This is because he was a stubborn person who disobeyed Allah and followed a path that is different from the right path which he had followed.

So not anybody who does not know about Ahlul Bayt a.s. is thrown into hell. There are conditions.

Ive also seen Sayid Mustafa al Qazwini, the one in your signature, say that not all non muslims will end up in hell.

Edited by Jnoub Libnan
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(salam)

It can go on but I think you get the picture. Or if not I will give a last attempt. People are not always privileged with the best conditions and circumstances for faith in its purest form. Have you really never considered this? How is a person whom has never been given the seeds of faith ever grow its fruits. I was hoping that once I confronted you about your arrogance and naivety you would let it be and disregard this whole issue, now I see you do not, and even so accuse me of wanting to disregard traditions given to us by Rasul (pbuh).

I obviously meant people who knowingly reject the Ahlul Bayt (as). The mentally unstable are exceptions. I suggest you stick to the topic and not come up with irrelevant trash.

I am not well right now and it is a bit of a struggle for me to even sit by the computer, however I am not going to be rude and by that I guess it is better for me to pause our discussion untill I am more able.

What happened? I hope you get well soon. You are in my prayers.

Also sister Whizbee, I think salah means is that there are some people who are not shias that may be able to go to jannah. Not everybody has the oppurtunity to learn about faith in its purest form as he said. We should also consider the meaning of the word kufr - to WILLFULLY - reject.

Yeah bro, that's what I meant too. Those who willfully hate and reject the Ahlul Bayt (as) will go to hell.

Edited by Whizbee
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(salam)

Why would you club me with nasibis wahabis or salafis? Did i show hate for Ahlul Bayt a.s.? Did i pass judgement on anybody here as being a kaffir? I know you're not saying im one of those 3 things, but to call me one of those things after reading what i have said would just be a lack of comprehending what is written here. I did not say that anybody in this thread acts like any of those who make people turn away from shiism, so please do not say " if i would have to be like you ..."

(salam)

I think it's quite naïve on your part to assume whatever you want to without actually understanding what I said. If you read, I first said "Though, it would be better if you learn to make distinctions between people/groups and then accordingly debate with them." By this, I meant, you should learn to identify people/groups and not just use the same argument for everyone. For example, it's foolishness to use the same argument for a polytheist and an atheist to prove the existence of ONE God because both have different sets of beliefs/ideas.

Similarly, the fact that you're debating with us using the arguments you should be using for those who DO la'anah in that manner, shows your naivety.

Therefore, if you would like to club us with those who behave in an "animal-like" behaviour, then even I know how to respond to it. And that's what I meant.

BTW, Wahabbis/Salafis not only hate the Ahlul Bayt (A) but also reject tawassul. Now you understand what I said, bro?

Edited by SpIzo
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(salam)

What happened? I hope you get well soon. You are in my prayers.

salam

thank you, Its really nothing new, been ill for a time, just the tension gets me worse. Ill be back on this forum, or rather, ill keep it easy and look in from time to time. I honestly dont have the strenght right now to debate anything fairly. However I do like the discussions and I find them healthy for us all. I really am happy with the thread I made in this forum. It hasnt turned all that sour, and brother 'A Fallower' has given me a response I have yet to reply to.

(salam)

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(salam)

What happened? I hope you get well soon. You are in my prayers.

salam

thank you, Its really nothing new, been ill for a time, just the tension gets me worse. Ill be back on this forum, or rather, ill keep it easy and look in from time to time. I honestly dont have the strenght right now to debate anything fairly. However I do like the discussions and I find them healthy for us all. I really am happy with the thread I made in this forum. It hasnt turned all that sour, and brother 'A Fallower' has given me a response I have yet to reply to.

oh and Jnoub Libnan thanks for the Q/A from Ayat. Fadlallah. yes, its isnt all that clear cut thankfully. But I see it is good now.

(salam)

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(salam)

np salah

Therefore, if you would like to club us with those who behave in an "animal-like" behaviour, then even I know how to respond to it. And that's what I meant.

BTW, Wahabbis/Salafis not only hate the Ahlul Bayt (A) but also reject tawassul. Now you understand what I said, bro?

Either way, i didnt group anybody like you said, and if it seemed like i did im sorry. It seems like we both misunderstood each other.

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Dear Shia brother

Never think things are so childish! there are too many hadith or revayat that

sound very sweet! bot not necessarily occures to everybody who does it!.

there is a prayer (which is called doa ahd of imam asr) which if you read it

many times you might see the imam Mahdi(sa), another revayat I heard recently in

a mosque in my homeland Iran, (the cleric was talking about truely belief by

heart) that "don,t be surprized if you read 70 times the " surah al hamd of

holy Quran" on a dead person and he comes alive! those jobs need strong

beliver which has no doubt in his heart when doing it and he shall see

the outcome. fingerful people in the world have such a belief which we

will never know who they are ! so if anybody writes an areeza and leave it

in a river or well the answer depends on how truely beleiver is he? please

don,t be disappointed if nothing happens shortly after that, patience is

needed,inshaallah, you will hear the answer sooner or later, but sometimes you

may never notice that it was the answer!

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Salam,

Truely, all requests to Imam Zaman (as) will reach him. All sincere request will be answered and there is no doubt whatsoever... The issue is with the person who make the request, he/she might not see how the request being answered. Most of times are not direct, unless Imam Zaman (as) wanted the person see it ... THe close associates of Imam (as), the most sincere hearts of his followers will always see it...it is like a day light. Bless are those people who sacrifice night and day for Imam return to the physical (seen) world.

Layman

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S/a.

This is a FAULTY Translation.

Go to ARABIC-VERSION for the original source. You will find something different.

This English quote in a faulty english translation has been confusing people un-necessarily.

Here is a detailed proper translation of the lines. Ask any well-versed arabic person and they can verify

Therefore, the trend that has become prevalent among some people, ie turning directly to the Prophets, Chosen servants of Allah or the Imams for hajaat, (without any dependence on Allah), as the Ghalis/Ghulatis do – is Shirk. Yes we implore Allah with the Barakat of their Wasilah. (How?) For example by saying: “ O Allah make my Tawassul through them successful and beneficial for me on the day of judgement.”

---------------------

We see that the sayyid even gave an example to demonstrate what he meant.

There is no harm and only benefit, in the manner and style used by the sayyid in his demonstrative example.

Hopefully this dispels for once and for all, the mis-information that was unintentionally spread about the Sayyid. W/s.

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(salam)

O Allah, I beseech Thee, and turn towards Thee, through Thy Prophet, the Prophet of Mercy, Muhammad, may Allah Bless him and his Progeny, and grant them peace. O Abul-Qasim, O Messenger of Allah O guide of mercy, O intercessor of the community, O our chief, O our master, We turn towards thee, seek thy intercession and advocacy before Allah, we put before you our open need; O intimate of Allah, Stand by us when Allah sits in judgement over us.

The above is an example how we make tawassul...extract from doa tawassul.

Layman

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Here is a detailed proper translation of the lines. Ask any well-versed arabic person and they can verify

Therefore, the trend that has become prevalent among some people, ie turning directly to the Prophets, Chosen servants of Allah or the Imams for hajaat, (without any dependence on Allah), as the Ghalis/Ghulatis do - is Shirk. Yes we implore Allah with the Barakat of their Wasilah. (How?) For example by saying: "O Allah make my Tawassul through them successful and beneficial for me on the day of judgement."

Edited by SpIzo
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thank you, Its really nothing new, been ill for a time, just the tension gets me worse. Ill be back on this forum, or rather, ill keep it easy and look in from time to time. I honestly dont have the strenght right now to debate anything fairly. However I do like the discussions and I find them healthy for us all. I really am happy with the thread I made in this forum. It hasnt turned all that sour, and brother 'A Fallower' has given me a response I have yet to reply to.

Salam brother salah.

Inshallah you are well.

You know I was thinking about your example and it is really contradictory that you believe in Shafa' and not Tawassul or rather you claim to believe in Tawassul and yet you say that intercession of the Imams (as) means that they are "hired" by Allah (swt) because he doesn't have "time" to handle all the requests. If this is how you feel then even when it comes to shafa', why can't Allah (swt) forgive our sins directly? Why will the Ahlul Bayt (as) intercede for us? Is Allah (swt) so limited that he himself cannot forgive us all and he needs help from the Ahlul Bayt (as)? Also, why did Allah (swt) send messengers (as) and Imams (as)? Was he incapable of directly guiding us? Did he have to take help from humans, did he have to "hire" Imams (as) to guide us because he himself was incapable of doing it?

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See my embedded comments in red below.

(salam)

O Allah, I beseech Thee, and turn towards Thee, through Thy Prophet, the Prophet of Mercy, Muhammad, may Allah Bless him and his Progeny, and grant them peace. O Abul-Qasim, O Messenger of Allah O guide of mercy, O intercessor of the community, O our chief, O our master, We turn towards thee [this here is turning in need towards the prophet], seek thy intercession and advocacy before Allah, we put before you our open need [this here is placing ones needs at the feet of the Prophet]; O intimate of Allah, Stand by us when Allah sits in judgement over us.

The above is an example how we make tawassul...extract from doa tawassul.

Layman

Like I said earlier, God must have gone on a long vacation. W/s.

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Please read the quote below:

---------------------------------

Truely, all requests to Allah (swt) will reach him. All sincere request will be answered and there is no doubt whatsoever... The issue is with the person who make the request, he/she might not see how the request being answered. Most of times are not direct, unless Allah (swt) wanted the person see it ...

---------------------------------

Now replace the word "Allah" with Imam Zaman, and we get the below from your post # 130.

Salam,

Truely, all requests to Imam Zaman (as) will reach him. All sincere request will be answered and there is no doubt whatsoever... The issue is with the person who make the request, he/she might not see how the request being answered. Most of times are not direct, unless Imam Zaman (as) wanted the person see it ...

Layman

I need not draw the conclusion. It speaks for itself. W/s.

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^ What are you trying to prove by that? Any kindergarden kid can do that. If you say that Imam Zaman [ajtf] doesnt hear our requests etc then you are mistaken since in another thread I proved that from a hadith and other sources.

And I guess for you Dua Tawassul is nothing since you reject the extract from it?

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Like I said earlier, God must have gone on a long vacation. W/s.

Indeed, you are opposed to these verses:

[2.154] And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.

[3.169] And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;

Those who are shahid, they are with their LORD (very close to their LORD). They hear what our LORD hears. They witness what our LORD witnesses. ISA (as) and Imam (as) witness the current ummah of all their doings and when both come back, they will bear witness to all the wrong / right doings of everyone. No one can pretend anymore.

Yes, we will ALWAYs put our hajat to Ahlulbayt, because they alive and are with our LORD, Allah swt. And Allah swt want Ahlulbayt (swt) to witness everything that the muslim ummah are doing.

Layman.

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Salam brother salah.

Inshallah you are well.

You know I was thinking about your example and it is really contradictory that you believe in Shafa' and not Tawassul or rather you claim to believe in Tawassul and yet you say that intercession of the Imams (as) means that they are "hired" by Allah (swt) because he doesn't have "time" to handle all the requests. If this is how you feel then even when it comes to shafa', why can't Allah (swt) forgive our sins directly? Why will the Ahlul Bayt (as) intercede for us? Is Allah (swt) so limited that he himself cannot forgive us all and he needs help from the Ahlul Bayt (as)? Also, why did Allah (swt) send messengers (as) and Imams (as)? Was he incapable of directly guiding us? Did he have to take help from humans, did he have to "hire" Imams (as) to guide us because he himself was incapable of doing it?

salam aleikum

By your post it seems as if though you will not be satisfied with me untill you see me join the ranks of those who find comfort in calling after help from Imams, in terms of Ya Ali madad, Ya Imame Zaman etc.. If this is true then I will give you instant relief in that I am not obligated to do so, and untill I find ample reassurance and reason for me to do this I will save my breath and rely on Allah (swt). You see, when it all come down to it, I actually do love ahlul bayt (as) for what they actually are not some exagerated legends that they are portrayed as. Difference between what I believe and what you believe is in how big of a role does the "spirits" of ahlul bayt (as) have in your life in comparison to how much their teachings have. I choose the teachings primary.

I basicaly find it right, true, honest and incumbent to put ones trust in God Most Mercyful himself then puting it on creation. I find it beautiful that to hope for the mercy of Allah (swt) more then all, it is a praise if you understand. In line I also find that this has a very very high prise to be able to do so. One must be very vigilant and very careful of ones deeds and wants. Here we find beaty in wisdom by the great Lord through our beloved teachers i.e The Ahlul Bayt (as). To fallow their examples is to praise Allah (swt) and is also to fear Allah(swt). To admire and love them alone has nothing to do with worship of Allah (swt) this is something else and has no relevance to Allah (swt) rather it is a blessing which is bestowed on this pure family.

When I put my faith in Allah (swt) alone, do you find it distasteful? Or is it reality unbent?

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salam aleikum

By your post it seems as if though you will not be satisfied with me untill you see me join the ranks of those who find comfort in calling after help from Imams, in terms of Ya Ali madad, Ya Imame Zaman etc.. If this is true then I will give you instant relief in that I am not obligated to do so, and untill I find ample reassurance and reason for me to do this I will save my breath and rely on Allah (swt). You see, when it all come down to it, I actually do love ahlul bayt (as) for what they actually are not some exagerated legends that they are portrayed as. Difference between what I believe and what you believe is in how big of a role does the "spirits" of ahlul bayt (as) have in your life in comparison to how much their teachings have. I choose the teachings primary.

I basicaly find it right, true, honest and incumbent to put ones trust in God Most Mercyful himself then puting it on creation. I find it beautiful that to hope for the mercy of Allah (swt) more then all, it is a praise if you understand. In line I also find that this has a very very high prise to be able to do so. One must be very vigilant and very careful of ones deeds and wants. Here we find beaty in wisdom by the great Lord through our beloved teachers i.e The Ahlul Bayt (as). To fallow their examples is to praise Allah (swt) and is also to fear Allah(swt). To admire and love them alone has nothing to do with worship of Allah (swt) this is something else and has no relevance to Allah (swt) rather it is a blessing which is bestowed on this pure family.

When I put my faith in Allah (swt) alone, do you find it distasteful? Or is it reality unbent?

Salam.

The question is not we are not putting faith in Allah swt alone. We do. The process of putting the faith is in question.

We want to put our faith to Allah swt along with the Ahlulbayt. One way is to read & follow the teaching of Ahlulbayt. Read the doas that are taught by them.

Again...dua and hajat are spiritual in nature. We all know for the facts that Ahlulbayt (as) are spiritually with Allah swt (closer to Him). They are not death.

The real meaning of Intercession is to be united with Ahlulbayt spiritually in putting the faith to Allah swt alone. Spiritually united with them, as if they are physically with us (mildly put in words).

We as the ummah of Muhammad, followers and lovers of Ahlulbayt are physically detached from them. But we are not spiritually detached.

So we hold on to Ahlulbayt, embark on the ship of Nuh, be in the siratul mustaqim in putting our faith to Allah swt.

We believe in every seconds of our life, we are not detached from Imam Hussain...kulli yaumul ashura, kulli arzin karbala in our daily activities.

We believe that in every seconds we are never detached with the Queen, Fatimatul Zahra...not even a single second in remembrance of Allah swt

We believe that if we are detached from the 14 maksum and in particular the Imam of the Time (as), we are left alone wondering in the wilderness that full with syaitans and their gangs. We are susceptible to attacks by the unseen enemies. These enemies are "aduuwon mubin", clearest enemies.

So we attached to Ahlulbayt as we believe they are spiritually alive. We make our hajat and doas through them, because we are spiritually not strong in the eye of our MIGHTY LORD. We are not tahiir (not clean spiritually). Whereas Ahlulbayt are Tahiir (33:33).

It that wrong that we put our trust in Allah swt together and in the presence our beloved Ahlulbayt, rather than be alone.

In the hereafter, we will be together and in the presence our beloved Ahlulbayt. We don't want to be too late. Why not be with them now!. Why wait? Maybe too late. When we are distressed in the hereafter in the heat of the sun, we go to the Kausar and meet Ahlulbayt to ask for help. Why not go straight to Allah swt at that moment. It won't work. Unless we are with Ahlulbayt, Allah swt WILL NOT entertain us as a special guest.

Let us be with the Ahlulbayt now so they will recognize us later in the hereafter.

Are we going to miss the first class boat...the ship of Nuh?

Wassalam

Layman

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So we attached to Ahlulbayt as we believe they are spiritually alive. We make our hajat and doas through them, because we are spiritually not strong in the eye of our MIGHTY LORD. We are not tahiir (not clean spiritually). Whereas Ahlulbayt are Tahiir (33:33).

salam aleikum

This is not true and is the same logic christians use for their idea of salvation (they justify it by original sin). You make ahlul bayt (as) to seem as loving caring human beings who accept and forgive but turn The Most Compassionate to deem us filthy and unworthy. Truly, those who deny Allah (swt) glory after ample proof and signs is worthy to be without them.

my regards

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salam aleikum

This is not true and is the same logic christians use for their idea of salvation (they justify it by original sin). You make ahlul bayt (as) to seem as loving caring human beings who accept and forgive but turn The Most Compassionate to deem us filthy and unworthy. Truly, those who deny Allah (swt) glory after ample proof and signs is worthy to be without them.

my regards

(salam)

The higherness of the virtue of Ahlulbayt (as) is already proven in the verse 33:56. That Allah swt and the Angels send blessings upon them. The mukmin must do the same. Whereas the concept of original sin is invented by the people. Muslims are not born as sinners. Every born baby will group up. They need guidance. Along the way in the journey to return to the Al-Mighty Allah swt, we are going to sway from the right path. Unless we have proven guides.

In the journey towards Allah swt (perfection), we need guides, physical and spiritual. In the physical world we unite with the teachings of Ahlulbayt. In spiritual, we have unity of souls. We let our souls to be united with Ahlulbayt (as) and sail toward Al-MIGHTY Allah swt...in a never ending journey...forever journey towards HIM.

Allah swt is Merciful and full of blessings to all. But, Allah swt does have preferences. He will treated his uptmost servants differently than ordinary people who have yet to show their loyalty to HIM. In the doa kumail we read :

[32.18] Is he then who is a believer like him who is a transgressor? They are not equal.

Because of Ahlulbayt (as) is chosen servants, they never disobey and will only do what Allah swt direct them to do. This is the definition of maksum. The link between them and Allah swt is direct, and the closest. No one can supersede them...not a single chance.

No single humans have shown throughout history that they can be so closed to Al-Migthy Allah when compared to the Ahlulbayt (as). So much so that Allah swt make them the Khalifah or His Representative to all humans. Meanings Allah swt will guide the human through them and in return the humans that want to return to Allah swt, must also go back through them (as).

[33.6] The Prophet has a greater claim on the faithful than they have on themselves..

In the ghadir khum kutbah, the Prophet (pbuh) did said the same thing, before proclaimed the Imamat of Ali (as) to all believers.

Allah does hear all duas and hajat...because He does not want humans to lost hope on HIS mercy. Many ummah before our Prophet (pbuh) were sinners, but among them there are good people who asked Allah swt for helps. Allah swt did sent His Messengers to them to guide them. What happen when the people were far away from the guides, they were lost totally.

THe same scenario apply to muslims, we need guides and our guides are the Ahlulbayt. The books and the teachings are not protected, but the Ahlulbayt themselves are protected. So we stick to the teachers. But the teachers are not longer physically available. We stick to them spiritually, and Allah swt make them alive and well to administer HIS Kingdom of forever blessings.

For some people who wanted to go to Allah swt directly in whatever daily activities they have, we would say "go ahead". We would like to be together with Ahlulbayt (as) in all our daily activities and in our journey to Allah swt.

Layman

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