Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

What Can I Do With My Areeza?

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Veteran Member
Salaam Alaykum

This question may sound funny, but it is a genuine question. I can't go outside to the River to dump my Areeza. Also, there are no wells. It would be too hard to bury it since by the time I bring the shovel out, I'll get stopped and/or I'll get arrested. I could tear up the Areeza or just leave it as is and flush it down the toilet, however. I don't want to risk dumping it down the sink's drain (it might get clogged up). So can I flush the Areeza down the toilet? JazakAllahu Khair.

On the matter of Areeza, is it possible that I can write my Areeza in my Native Language (English) instead of Arabic? I don't speak enough Arabic to write a letter that'll make sense. JazakAllahu Khair.

(salam)

Areeza is something spiritual.... from physical writing into spiritual world so that your hajat is given to Imam (as). In spiritual world...river represents abundant blessings. In the heaven, there will be river flowing. Never ending blessings.

When you put your areeza to the river...it is just symbolic gesture. But if you flush it in the toilet, you return of request also will comes through the same gesture you made.... I don't know what toilet represents. Kaabah represents House of Allah swt (again full of blessings). Ahlulbayts represents the Administrator of Allah swt because they are the Purest Servants of Allah swt. Prophets repesent the Messengers of Allah swt to humans.

If you don't know what you did then Allah swt is Merciful... May you hajat is accepted.

Layman

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 188
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Advanced Member
(salam)

Please do not make a statement that will implicate yourself.....

If Allah swt wants Ahlul bayt to take care the whole universe on HIS behalf, that won't make Allah swt lower HIS status. Since you don't understand spirituality, you always talk nonsense. There are two parallel realities: spiritual and physical. The spiritual world exist, and the Souls of Ahlulbayt are alive. All the Souls are interconnected in the spiritual world and can communicate to each others via heart if a person wanted it. Muslims are brothers...that means we are connected. You can feel the pain of Imam Hussain (as) at Karbala. You can feel the pain and joy of the Prophet (pbuh), even though the Prophet is physically dead. If the heart and souls are not connected, no one can feel the pains of others. It is beyond physical means.

The Prophet (pbuh) said" I leave among you two weighty things: Qu'an and Ahlulbayt, you will never be misguided if you follow both of them" If both are dead (spiritually), then we are not allowed to follow non living entities.

When a shahid is dead physically, his souls will be alive. Alive means not disconnected to this world. Death means go to another physical world called "barzarkh". But the alive souls are connected to the spiritual reality that govern existing universe. There always exist the "kingdom" that govern us, it is unseen to us. The Angels, Prophets, Walis, Auliya, shahid are living in that "government"...The Ahlulbayt is the Administrator of that Kingdom. When we connect our souls to Ahlulbayt, all we talk is ONLY Allah swt...we praise Allah swt, we hope for Allah swt, we make SOLAT for Allah swt....we NEVER forget for a second the remembrance of Allah swt with the GUIDEs of the Ahlulbayt, the adminstrator.

(salam)

Just for clarification, are you talking about "The Heavens and Earth" of Allah (swt) creation, and that Ahlul Bayt is the administrator of The Heavens?

please explain yourself...

Do you not know that Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, and that besides Allah you have no guardian or helper?

[shakir 2:107]

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

S/a. There is a difference between spirituality and myth.

The vast majority of what you are talking about is MYTH, not spirituality. W/s.

(salam)

Please do not make a statement that will implicate yourself.....

If Allah swt wants Ahlul bayt to take care the whole universe on HIS behalf, that won't make Allah swt lower HIS status. Since you don't understand spirituality, you always talk nonsense. There are two parallel realities: spiritual and physical. The spiritual world exist, and the Souls of Ahlulbayt are alive. All the Souls are interconnected in the spiritual world and can communicate to each others via heart if a person wanted it. Muslims are brothers...that means we are connected. You can feel the pain of Imam Hussain (as) at Karbala. You can feel the pain and joy of the Prophet (pbuh), even though the Prophet is physically dead. If the heart and souls are not connected, no one can feel the pains of others. It is beyond physical means.

The Prophet (pbuh) said" I leave among you two weighty things: Qu'an and Ahlulbayt, you will never be misguided if you follow both of them" If both are dead (spiritually), then we are not allowed to follow non living entities.

When a shahid is dead physically, his souls will be alive. Alive means not disconnected to this world. Death means go to another physical world called "barzarkh". But the alive souls are connected to the spiritual reality that govern existing universe. There always exist the "kingdom" that govern us, it is unseen to us. The Angels, Prophets, Walis, Auliya, shahid are living in that "government"...The Ahlulbayt is the Administrator of that Kingdom. When we connect our souls to Ahlulbayt, all we talk is ONLY Allah swt...we praise Allah swt, we hope for Allah swt, we make SOLAT for Allah swt....we NEVER forget for a second the remembrance of Allah swt with the GUIDEs of the Ahlulbayt, the adminstrator.

We as humans have two realities: the physical being and a spiritual being. We are connected to the Ahlulbayt in the spiritual world. We can choose to be connected to Ahlulbayt if we want to. The condition is to be sincere slave of Allah(swt) by following Ahlulbayt (swt).

Ahlulbayt are the caretaker (Imamat) of physical and spiritual world, both. Eventhough the munafiqs have taken away their physical part of leadership, the spiritual part remains intact.

Now, there are individuals who also wanted to take the right of spiritual leadership of Ahlulbayt from us....by blaming us as "ghulat", "hindus"...."musyrik"....and accused us to abandon Allah swt and focus to Ahlulbayt (as) alone.

Unless these people hijab is opened to them, they will behave like iblis. Allah swt asked iblis to make sajdah to Adam (as), he refused. Iblis spiritual eyes do not exist, only his logic exist. He did not see the LIGHT of Allah swt in the souls of Adam (as). That LIGHT is the RULER of the Universe....and that LIGHT is embbed in the HEART of Adam (as).

Wassalam.

Layman

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
(salam)

Just for clarification, are you talking about "The Heavens and Earth" of Allah (swt) creation, and that Ahlul Bayt is the administrator of The Heavens?

please explain yourself...

Salaam Alaykum

No. The Spiritual World is a whole different world.

Earth (Arabic: Al-ardh) - The planet we live on

Heavens (Arabic: As-samawati) - The universe

These two things are of the physicial world. The spiritual world may have an Earth and may have Heavens, but not in the sense of the Heavens and Earth that we know and experience, which is of the physical world. Just to let you know, "Heavens" and "Paradise" (Jannah) are two different things. "Heavens" is the physical universe while "Paradise" is, Insha'Allah, our final home.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
(salam)

Please do not make a statement that will implicate yourself.....

If Allah swt wants Ahlul bayt to take care the whole universe on HIS behalf, that won't make Allah swt lower HIS status. Since you don't understand spirituality, you always talk nonsense.

(salam) brother layman,

I understand you think these discussions are ridiculous and you probably see us as wahabis, but why cant we have a respectful discussion without personal attacks? These topics are very sensitive, so they should be carried on with the most respect. Let us not forget that we are not enemies in any way.

Unless these people hijab is opened to them, they will behave like iblis. Allah swt asked iblis to make sajdah to Adam (as), he refused. Iblis spiritual eyes do not exist, only his logic exist. He did not see the LIGHT of Allah swt in the souls of Adam (as). That LIGHT is the RULER of the Universe....and that LIGHT is embbed in the HEART of Adam (as).

Wassalam.

Layman

Are you saying that saying ya ali madad or any form of this 'dua' is an order from Allah that everybody must follow? If not then please dont make such comparisons. We follow the Ahlul bayt a.s. as you do, and we love them as you do too. They are Allahs guides to lead us on the straight path, and nobody denies this. I ask you with the most respect to not discuss these things as if we are not followers of Ahlul Bayt a.s., you seem to have mistaken us for followers of some other unrightful leaders.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
S/a. There is a difference between spirituality and myth.

The vast majority of what you are talking about is MYTH, not spirituality. W/s.

Pray this Dua is not a MYTH too! :squeez:

Ya Khayral Mas'ulin wa Ya Khayral Mu'tin, Urzuqni warzuq 'Ayali Min Fazlika Fa Innaka Zulfazlil 'Azim -

(O You Who are the best from whom people seek their needs, and O You, Who are the best bestower of gifts! Give me and the members of my family sustenance with Your grace. Undoubtedly You possess the greatest grace)

This dua is from Imam Baqir Muhammad [as] and he taught this dua to zaid shaham for increase in Rizq. It is his recommendation to recite it in sajda of prayers.

From Mafatih ul Jinan: http://www.shiamasjid.net/books/mafateh/

From the rishalah of Ayatollah Lankarani: http://www.lankarani.org/eng/index.html?rnd=20073231131

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Salaam Alaykum

No. The Spiritual World is a whole different world.

Earth (Arabic: Al-ardh) - The planet we live on

Heavens (Arabic: As-samawati) - The universe

These two things are of the physicial world. The spiritual world may have an Earth and may have Heavens, but not in the sense of the Heavens and Earth that we know and experience, which is of the physical world. Just to let you know, "Heavens" and "Paradise" (Jannah) are two different things. "Heavens" is the physical universe while "Paradise" is, Insha'Allah, our final home.

(salam)

Nice try but I dont believe your right, You said samawat is universe. Then why are we told of the "seven heavens" and while we all know that there are seven paridises...but if your right does that mean we have seven universes? The very word itself is plural, how can the universe (which ive learned to be singular in origing) be plural?

have you ever prayed in qunnot: SubhanAllahi samawatin sab wa Ardhin sab. And if im not misstaken sab means seven, the seven in earth are the continents..

He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things. Shakir 2:29

awaiting your reply :)

Edited by salah
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Pray this Dua is not a MYTH too! :squeez:

Ya Khayral Mas'ulin wa Ya Khayral Mu'tin, Urzuqni warzuq 'Ayali Min Fazlika Fa Innaka Zulfazlil 'Azim -

(O You Who are the best from whom people seek their needs, and O You, Who are the best bestower of gifts! Give me and the members of my family sustenance with Your grace. Undoubtedly You possess the greatest grace)

This dua is from Imam Baqir Muhammad [as] and he taught this dua to zaid shaham for increase in Rizq. It is his recommendation to recite it in sajda of prayers.

From Mafatih ul Jinan: http://www.shiamasjid.net/books/mafateh/

From the rishalah of Ayatollah Lankarani: http://www.lankarani.org/eng/index.html?rnd=20073231131

(salam)

So what does that mean. He supplicated to Allah (swt), whats wrong with that. I dont see the controversy..

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Basic Members

Well there is no need for azeezah in such a condition Imam will listen to you just pray 2 rakat namaz Hajat and Ask Imam whatever your hajaats are and he will help.

Flushing the Areezah is not a good idea at all. Imam has an eye on you he knows what you want and what your needs are as he is our present Imam so dont worry just pray namaz and ask his help and inshallah he will assist u

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

wow... this disucssion still gng on...

Ppl that wna write areezas - let dem... n those that do not believe in such things Dont do it yourself but y u stopping others from doing it if dey wish??

Wots da need for such longgggg debates...

However i def. disagree with the original subject of "flushing down the toietl" astakhfirullah dat wud def be "behurmati"...

newayz chao"!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Well there is no need for azeezah in such a condition Imam will listen to you just pray 2 rakat namaz Hajat and Ask Imam whatever your hajaats are and he will help.

Flushing the Areezah is not a good idea at all. Imam has an eye on you he knows what you want and what your needs are as he is our present Imam so dont worry just pray namaz and ask his help and inshallah he will assist u

Alhamdulillah ash'hadu ana La Illaha Illa Allah wahdahu la sharika la

anyone? :Hijabi:

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Again, Allah can give them power to do things, but who told you he gave them the power in their graves? Who told you they can hear you in their graves? If you want to ask Allah to let them help you from their graves go ahead, but its going right back to Allah anyways.

It always goes to Allah (swt). But unlike us, they are infallibles and they hold a MUCH greater position infront of Allah (swt) and if we ask them to put forth our request in front of Allah (swt), if we go through them then Allah (swt) is going to accept our prayers faster. As has being said many times, tawassul is not wajib. You can pray directly too.

If the Imam was here to ask, i would rush to him myself and ask. But please answer to me why i should DIRECT MY DUAS to someone who is it is not allowed to direct my duas towards.

Allah (swt) himself has asked us to seek means of approaching him.

Acquire proximity with Allah through the Imam.(Tafsire Qummi, V.1,168)

By Allah! We are the best names through which Allah has commanded the Muslims to invoke Him. (Mikyalul Makarim, Vol 1, 271)

And what do you mean by “if Imam was there”? Imam is there!!! Not only is he there, he knows about all our affairs and is always ready to help us.

We are never neglectful of your guardianship nor are we ever unmindful of your remembrance. (Behaarul Anwar, V. 53, pg. 176)

You are saying you direct your duas to them, you call to them for help, please prove to me why this is allowed, I am honestly open to changing my beliefs if your proof is strong enough for me. But tell me, do you believe it is ok to supplicate to ahlul bayt a.s.?

What constitutes proof? Are ahadith and authentic duas proof enough?

O Allah! I ask You for the sake of Your representative and Your Proof, Master of Time, that You help me through him in all my affairs. And Protect me through him from the difficulties of every torturer, dissident and rebel. (Please) help me through him for my efforts are exhausted. And Protect me from every enemy, grief, sorrow, debt, my children and all my family members, my brothers and my close ones, whose deeds do harm unto me. Aamin, Lord of the Worlds. (Mikyal Makarim, V 2, pg. 271)

O Inheritor of Hasan, Successor, Proof! O awaited Qaim, Mahdi! O son of God’s Messenger! O proof of God over His creatures! O our Lord and Master! We turn to thee, ask thy intercession, and seek access through thee to God. We place before thee our needs. O thou who has standing with God! Intercede for us with God! (Behaarul Anwar, V 94, pg. 34)

Read Dua tawassul, which is considered authentic by ALL scholars.

http://www.duas.org/tawasul.htm

Also in Dua Nudba, we say:

Let us be with him when he makes peace, and frees mankind from fear, gives currency to love are kindness, brings bliss and happiness, spreads good and virtue, so that we may do our best to promote his cause through Thy mercy, and win victory for Thee. Accept our prayers, forgive our sins, fulfil our desires, give us means of livelihood, unrestricted, make less our hardships, meet our demands in full (through him).

http://duas.org/nudba.htm

And brother, what is your stance on Shafa'? Do you believe in it or are the Ahlul Bayt (as) too powerless to do Shafa' too?

What surprises and saddens me is that there are “Shias” with “open minds” that speak against intercession. When it’s the wahabis, you can understand that they never can realize the position of the Imams (as) and so you can let them carry on with their filthy ways but when it’s Shias who object to it, and not only object but also discourage others and spread their rubbish, you can only pray for the early reappearance of Imam (atfs) because he is the distinguisher between the truth and falsehood and when he comes, these people won’t find any corner to hide their faces.

Edited by Whizbee
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Basic Members

wow... this disucssion still gng on...

Ppl that wna write areezas - let dem... n those that do not believe in such things Dont do it yourself but y u stopping others from doing it if dey wish??

Its not tht i dont believe in Areeza ofcourse I do but in his case do u thk wht he said was an option I DONT THK SO well just pray to Allah and he will solve ur problem with a pure niyat and he understands our need.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
It always goes to Allah (swt). But unlike us, they are infallibles and they hold a MUCH greater position infront of Allah (swt) and if we ask them to put forth our request in front of Allah (swt), if we go through them then Allah (swt) is going to accept our prayers faster. As has being said many times, tawassul is not wajib. You can pray directly too.

Allah (swt) himself has asked us to seek means of approaching him.

Yes, as christian say that Jesus (as) is perfect, and this is the only way to salvation. Nobody ever wants to give the acctual Judge who relieves (Allah (swt)) the credit of mercy, it has to be trough mediators?!

And what do you mean by �if Imam was there�? Imam is there!!! Not only is he there, he knows about all our affairs and is always ready to help us.

Does he have divine level of understanding of our daily lives? Then you elevate his power to divine. I know you do not believe this.

What constitutes proof? Are ahadith and authentic duas proof enough?

O Allah! I ask You for the sake of Your representative and Your Proof, Master of Time, that You help me through him in all my affairs. And Protect me through him from the difficulties of every torturer, dissident and rebel. (Please) help me through him for my efforts are exhausted. And Protect me from every enemy, grief, sorrow, debt, my children and all my family members, my brothers and my close ones, whose deeds do harm unto me. Aamin, Lord of the Worlds. (Mikyal Makarim, V 2, pg. 271)

Seems as if he wishes his Lords help trough one of his servants, it might just as well had been Arc Angel Jibrill (peace be with him) that he could have wanted. Thus does this warrant us calling upon an Angel for help directly? No.

Let us be with him when he makes peace, and frees mankind from fear, gives currency to love are kindness, brings bliss and happiness, spreads good and virtue, so that we may do our best to promote his cause through Thy mercy, and win victory for Thee. Accept our prayers, forgive our sins, fulfil our desires, give us means of livelihood, unrestricted, make less our hardships, meet our demands in full (through him).

Well, this is also a supplication to Allah (swt) about the comming of Imam (af) and about the relief he is supposed to bring. What is this to do with interscesion?

What surprises and saddens me is that there are �Shias� with �open minds� that speak against intercession. When it�s the wahabis, you can understand that they never can realize the position of the Imams (as) and so you can let them carry on with their filthy ways but when it�s Shias who object to it, and not only object but also discourage others and spread their rubbish, you can only pray for the early reappearance of Imam (atfs) because he is the distinguisher between the truth and falsehood and when he comes, these people won�t find any corner to hide their faces.

So a shia muslim who does not cry out to Imam Ali (as) or Imam Mahdi (as) and wishes to come to reason as to how it makes sense in a monotheistic religion (as Islam) to ascribe Allah (swt) partners and helpers from his servants (much like christans have done with the pure message of Isa (as) to the falsly elevated station of Son of God) then we are the ones who are as you imply spreading rubbish? Who are the ones that come with anger and lack of patience? Why is discussing important issues of the deen such a despised thing in a religious forum? My bet is that it is uncomfortable. If Allah (swt) wants me/you/us to direct "certain" prayers to his servant then, ok, sure, but it strikes me very unfamiliar that it would be so. And to give up ones convictions because someone labels you to the like of terrorist wahabis is only going to rise my conviction and suspect the sencerity of yours. Because as you know Islam is religion of truth, and Allah (swt) is that truth, not Ahlul Bayt (as) they came later on, i.e creation. So if we cannot be friends inspite of our shared love for Allah (swt) and cannot be kind and polite to each other even though we are Shia muslims by the very definition of it (we are shia we also), then certainly we have a problem. And your mentioning of wahabis is not sufficient, also some christians believe that some aspects of shi'i reverance of Imams (as) is shirk, the mere irony of it baffles me.

Edited by salah
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
So a shia muslim who does not cry out to Imam Ali (as) or Imam Mahdi (as) and wishes to come to reason as to how it makes sense in a monotheistic religion (as Islam) to ascribe Allah (swt) partners and helpers from his servants (much like christans have done with the pure message of Isa (as) to the falsly elevated station of Son of God) then we are the ones who are as you imply spreading rubbish? [/quote]

Before you try to mess up the belief about tauhid and claim others to be like christians that falsify the pure message of Isa by elevating him to station of Son of God....explain to everyone why Isa (as) is given a title as "Ruhullah"...Spirit of God.

Layman

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Before you try to mess up the belief about tauhid and claim others to be like christians that falsify the pure message of Isa by elevating him to station of Son of God....explain to everyone why Isa (as) is given a title as "Ruhullah"...Spirit of God.

Layman

(bismillah)

(salam)

I do not intend to imply that shia muslims are like christians, but we have come to the place where mediators have taken big space in the religion while it is still the religion of Allah (swt) and not religion of men. And one of the similarities of christian thought and this extensive tawasul of shi'i is (and one cannot deny it) the idea that Allah's (swt) mercy is a distant thing and one almost is in sure danger if one does not comply and strive for intercession. It is becoming a central theme. Jesus (as) is said to be loved by Allah (swt) because he was perfect according to christians, and it is only for his sake those that take refuge in his name are saved. If you consider this, then you will notice how by slick rethoric of "love and mercy", the christian religion actually portrays The Lord Allah (swt) as a less mercyful and compassionate deity (to his actual servants directly, rather his love must take a detour trough Jesus (as)), even greater so then the Jewish concept! We have a similar problem. Why is it a necessery belief that God Almighty, he whom is infact himself kalled Karim. Not the one to be trusted in alone? Not the one to be seeked out for bounty or blessings? It has become costum for many muslims to view tawasul as a main pillar of salvation, rather like (some others) who believe tawasul is a recomended and smart thing to do, but only as a secondary resource, not as the soul foundation of ones belief in Allah (swt) mercy, clemency and love for you as a sincere and devout servant. It is my firm belief that no matter how much Allah (swt) loves one person, it is still not a love that can be transfered to another person.

Hence:

Say: What! shall I seek a Lord other than Allah? And He is the Lord of all things; and no soul earns (evil) but against itself, and no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another; then to your Lord is your return, so He will inform you of that in which you differed. Shakir 6:164

So if one is deemed eligable to be considered a righteous person (InshaAllah we shall be) it will be mainly by ones own deeds and not for the sake of some love of another. I remind you. The Holy father in christianity is never as much remembered in comparison the The Son, as it is believed that the Son was the bearer of misery and pain, while it was true that they believe The Father made the decision of sacrifice "for the love he felt for mankind" in doing justice for them by it (allthough I obviously do not need to adress the flaw in reasoning with this kind of "justice" and "love"). It is Jesus (as) who actually went trough the torture. The actuall "redemption" was done by him. He is considered the saviour not "The Father". Then by this, who do you think the gratitude goes to the most? Yes it might be subjective, but it is a reality for me, from my experience.

So can you see now how one would want to object to the idea that one has reached salvation or blessing by other means then the one of Allah's (swt) own good mercy and generosity? The dilema of gratitude plays a heavy role in this too. Who do you thank? And also the spirit of the matter in seeking provisions from Allah (swt) is very important. Will you be happy to know that it takes the love of another for Allah (swt) to grant you such and such? Would such a bounty/mercy/blessing really not be a thing you in reality do not deserve, yet maneged to by other means to achieve (other means then the good will of Allah (swt), The Generous, The Most Compassionate). Then in that case will you accept the gift not by the pleasure of God for you, but for someone else. Does not such a though make you sick, make you feel like a freeloader, deriving your rewards not by own merit, but by someone elses? Enough said. As you can see this can go on and on.

And as for your question. I for the matter honestly do not know exactly why he is called the "Spirit of God" or why he sometimes is called the "word of God". I can make sence of it, I can. If you wish I can give you my understanding of what the spirit of God means, from how I see it. Or the word of God. But I do not believe it will matter as I do not interpret it literally and I am guessing you have a hadith or tafsir of some kind to explain what I have no greater knowledge of. But if you are really interested I can tell you what I think and then you can lecture me.

We have made some of these messengers to excel the others among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by (many degrees of) rank; and We gave clear miracles to Isa son of Marium, and strengthened him with the holy spirit. And if Allah had pleased, those after them would not have fought one with another after clear arguments had come to them, but they disagreed; so there were some of them who believed and others who denied; and if Allah had pleased they would not have fought one with another, but Allah brings about what He intends. Shakir 2:253

Here we see that the "spirit" strenghtens Jesus (as) as to say, the spirit of God would be not far away to deem to as general godliness and piousness we all recognise in Jesus (as). The gracious ways and by the elequant manners he approches the people of Israel is very beautiful and blameless, yet he has not been given these powers permanantly as his own persona or to his own absolute credit, it is as we could consider the spirit of God which dwells within him, by the leave of God Almighty himself.

O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector. Shakir 4:171

And if anyone would even come up with the ridiculous idea that this implies that Allah (swt) was incarnated in Jesus (as) by this spirit, it will be set to rest by the fact that it is writen as "a spirit from him" not as "THE spirit from him". Casually proclaiming the existance of holy spirits (plural) which might be sent to servants as strengthening agents or increasers of Iman perhaps, might even be the noor we all know to be a reality.

Well, does it satisfy you?

salams brother

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Salam.

Okay first off, if you want me to reply, learn to use the quote tags. There is nothing more irritating than having to go through posts of people who don't use the quote tags properly. I will stop replying if you don't quote properly.

Yes, as christian say that Jesus (as) is perfect, and this is the only way to salvation. Nobody ever wants to give the acctual Judge who relieves (Allah (swt)) the credit of mercy, it has to be trough mediators?!

The Ahlul Bayt (as) indeed are the ONLY way to salvation. They have been likened to Noah's ark. Those who get on are saved and the rest are doomed. This is Imamat, one of the basic fundamentals, which according to you isn't really all that important.

Islam is not centered around Imamat (as).

(Refer )

Does he have divine level of understanding of our daily lives? Then you elevate his power to divine. I know you do not believe this.

I don't believe that they are "manifestations of God". But yes, as stated in the hadith, the Imam (atfs) does know all about our lives.

Seems as if he wishes his Lords help trough one of his servants, it might just as well had been Arc Angel Jibrill (peace be with him) that he could have wanted. Thus does this warrant us calling upon an Angel for help directly? No.

What do you mean by "directly" here?

Well, this is also a supplication to Allah (swt) about the comming of Imam (af) and about the relief he is supposed to bring. What is this to do with interscesion?

The brother asked me a question and I replied. Please go and read in what context I have posted that.

So a shia muslim who does not cry out to Imam Ali (as) or Imam Mahdi (as) and wishes to come to reason as to how it makes sense in a monotheistic religion (as Islam) to ascribe Allah (swt) partners and helpers from his servants (much like christans have done with the pure message of Isa (as) to the falsly elevated station of Son of God) then we are the ones who are as you imply spreading rubbish?

Nobody is ascribing partners to Allah (swt). We ask Allah (swt) but we go through the Ahlul Bayt (as). Like if I want something from my father and I know that he loves my baby sister too much to refuse anything she asks him for, I may ask my sister to put forth my request in front of my father. Does that mean that I feel she has the same authority or position as my father? Or am I just going to my father through his favorite child?

Think.

Why is discussing important issues of the deen such a despised thing in a religious forum? My bet is that it is uncomfortable. If Allah (swt) wants me/you/us to direct "certain" prayers to his servant then, ok, sure, but it strikes me very unfamiliar that it would be so.

What is your take on Dua-e-Tawassul? Have you too thought up imaginary scholars who have rejected it as "unreliable".

Also what is your opinion on Shafa'?

Edited by Whizbee
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

(salam) bro/sis Whizbee,

First of all the authenticity of Dua Tawassul is not agreed upon by all scholars, im hoping you made an honest mistake when you said it is agreed upon by all scholars. Just because someone disagrees with its authenticity does not make him any less of a scholar. A negative opinion of an individual scholar does not mean he is not a scholar. Not every scholar determines the authenticity of a dua or hadith in the same way as every other scholar. And not every scholar interprets every verse of the quran the same way. So the difference lies in the methods and perceptions.

And brother, what is your stance on Shafa'? Do you believe in it or are the Ahlul Bayt (as) too powerless to do Shafa' too?

I dont understand why people need to use ill intended sarcasm to get their points accross, these things do not help any argument whether true or false. Please let us use the akhlaq and patience that the Ahlul Bayt a.s. have taught us. These serious issues must be dealt with respect and calmness,

Shafa3a has to do with the Day of Judgement, if we obey the Imams a.s. in this world, and we ask Allah for their shafa3a, then Inshallah Allah will grant us their intercession.

But what we are discussing here is wasilah. And I am not arguing asking the highest of rank (such as Imams a.s.) for their help in asking Allah to grant us our hajjat, this is definetly a recommended act. But what I am asking is how do you know that your request for dua ( sent to them bi idhn illah ) , is heard by them? You hope that they hear it, but you have no assurance that they do. But you always have assurance that Allah swt hears your dua. I personally see no problem in asking an Imam to make dua for you, as long as it is done with the right intention and knowledge that they are not omnipresent, and everything is through the power of Allah swt. The problem with this is that people who dont have the right education begin to take things the wrong way and turn it into shirk, yes these are shia muslims unfortunately who go this route. I am not accusing anybody here of this, but it does happen. And sadly, people begin to forget Allah, he only becomes a word of utterance in their daily prayers.

Imam Zayn al Abideen, salawat wa salam Allah 3alleh, has written a book of duas for us called Sahafiya Sajjadia, and im sure you've heard of it. Why is it that all throughout this book he does not write a dua in which we call to Imam Ali a.s.? You would think that if this was such an important way to grant our hajjat, this great Imam of ours that we are blessed to have would have taught it to us. What you do find in this book are phrases such as " be haqqi muhammad wa alee muhammad", this is because mentioning these people in our duas to Allah, we have a better chance for the dua to be answered. This is the power of the Ahlul Bayt a.s.

Imams always called to Allah in times of need. Again, i have no problem with such things as long as they have the right intention, but people begin to belittle going straight to Allah, as if you must say ya ali, because if you only say ya Allah your chances take a big hit at being answered.

What surprises and saddens me is that there are “Shias” with “open minds” that speak against intercession. When it’s the wahabis, you can understand that they never can realize the position of the Imams (as) and so you can let them carry on with their filthy ways but when it’s Shias who object to it, and not only object but also discourage others and spread their rubbish, you can only pray for the early reappearance of Imam (atfs) because he is the distinguisher between the truth and falsehood and when he comes, these people won’t find any corner to hide their faces.

Again, your sarcastic tone and disrespect does no good for your argument, we are arguing principals, you have no right to accuse anybody here of not being a shia by putting quotation marks around the word. I am not accusing anybody of shirk, nor of takfir like the wahabis. That is not my business here or anywhere. Yet you sit and pass judgements on others. Who gave you this right?

The Ahlul Bayt a.s. have a rank like no others, yet you accuse us of lowering their rank, why? Because we prefer to call upon Allah the almighty as his representatives on earth have done? Because we prefer to follow the ways of Dua Kumayl, and Sahafiya Sajjadiya? You keep accusing and accusing, it looks good on the outside, but it doesnt really help your argument. Im sure you never liked when a wahabi passed judgements on shias, so please do not pass judgements on us. Nobody belittles the power of the Imams, rather we use their duas which come from their amazingly powerful minds to reach Allah, their teachings and eloquence are one of our wasilahs to Allah.

Inshallah we can discuss things without lashing out at one another, from both sides. Inshallah we can realize this is an Islamic discussion, it is not a battle, but a quest for knowledge. We should reflect on how our Holy Prophet (s) and his holy progeny a.s. discussed this great religion, and how they invited people to the path of Allah swt. I apologize to you Whizbee or anybody if I have offended them in anyway, I only want to discuss these critical issues with my brothers and sisters in the best manner.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

(salam)

Sayed Fadhlallah says Dua Tawassul is not authentic.

post-25397-1153534528.jpg

It translates to: The authenticity of Dua Tawassul or its transmission from the Aimmah [a] is not proven to us.

---

Regarding Ziyarat Ashura, Sayed Fadhlallah says it is fabricated and has daeef sanad.

Edited by Murabit
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Salaam Alaykum

Sayyid Fadlullah said during one of his Friday speeches:

Thus, asking them [Ahl-ul-Bayt] directly and separately to fulfill your needs in an act of ascribing partners to Allah. Nevertheless, we can ask them to intercede for us, knowing that Allah is accepts the intercession of whom He pleases. He is the Sustainer, the Creator, and the Divider. He is everything and all those who drew near to Him did so as a result of their obedience and piety… We should always remember this point to remain free of the exaggerations that undermine our religion.

This basically sums up the correct view of Tawassul.

Located here.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
S/a. Because I am a Shia, Caliph Umar's words do not count for me.

He was a caliph (political) of the muslims, fine, but when it comes to deen, I take it from Muhammad(sawa) & then Ali(as).

Well, well. But for unity with the Sunnis, you've to give importance to "Caliph" Umar. You see, they won't like it. They'll feel hurt and this will act as a hindrance to unity.

First of all the authenticity of Dua Tawassul is not agreed upon by all scholars,

Apart from Fadlallah which other scholars reject Dua'e Tawassul?

Thus, asking them [Ahl-ul-Bayt] directly and separately to fulfill your needs in an act of ascribing partners to Allah. Nevertheless, we can ask them to intercede for us

This says it all. We don't ask separately.

For the Fadlallah followers, he has advised to ASK them to intercede for us. How do we ASK THEM in this case considering that according to you all, the Aimmah (A) are not 'all-Hearing' and 'all-Seeing'?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Regarding Ziyarat Ashura, Sayed Fadhlallah says it is fabricated and has daeef sanad.

(salam)

hmm, I havent heard that he considers the whole ziyarah as unauthentic. I've heard he considers certain parts of it to be untrue such as the cursing.

Well, well. But for unity with the Sunnis, you've to give importance to "Caliph" Umar. You see, they won't like it. They'll feel hurt and this will act as a hindrance to unity.

Unity does not need the compromise of beliefs, only the respect of beliefs. So you dont have to give any importance to umar for a sunni brother/sister, you just shouldnt go yelling "lanat lanat!" like an animal who doesnt know how to use different sounds and words lol. You can simply tell them that you distance yourself from such people.

For the Fadlallah followers, he has advised to ASK them to intercede for us. How do we ASK THEM in this case considering that according to you all, the Aimmah (A) are not 'all-Hearing' and 'all-Seeing'?

This in no way means that the Aimmah a.s. are all hearing or all seeing. No marja will tell you they are omnipresent, since that is equal to shirk according to Ayatollah al Khoei. If you ask with the right intention there is no problem.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

(salam)

From the site of Ayatollah Fadlallah:

Q: If I can ask Allah (The Most Exalted) and Imam Ali (a.s.) for a need, who is worthier to be asked, Allah or Imam Ali (a.s.)? Or, can we say that there is no priority? 9/18/2006 11:45:41 AM

A: Allah is the only one Whom we should ask for our needs, where as, asking Imam Ali (a.s.) only for the needs while, believing that he is the one who answers them, is considered as ascribing him as (a.s.) a partner for Allah.

Q: Is it prohibited according to Islamic law to say “o Ali” (ya Ali)? 4/18/2006 11:50:47 AM

A: It is not prohibited to say (ya Ali), as long as the supplication is not addressed to anyone except to Allah and Ahl El-Beit (a.s) are but the intercessors. Although the Niyyah (the intention) is so, it is better that one should not address in his supplication anyone except Allah.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Salaam.

Can one flush the Quran or Duas down the toilet? Audhubillah. Putting ones own hand in the toilet is better.

Arizah has the kalaam Allah and/or Aimmah (ph) therefore one has to place it in a taahir place; be it water or earth. If you cannot find clean flowing water then bury it in soil that is cleanest to your knowledge.

Wa-salaam.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Salam brother.

First of all the authenticity of Dua Tawassul is not agreed upon by all scholars, im hoping you made an honest mistake when you said it is agreed upon by all scholars. Just because someone disagrees with its authenticity does not make him any less of a scholar. A negative opinion of an individual scholar does not mean he is not a scholar. Not every scholar determines the authenticity of a dua or hadith in the same way as every other scholar. And not every scholar interprets every verse of the quran the same way. So the difference lies in the methods and perceptions.

You got it all wrong there. I, obviously, will not consider any particular Ayatullah as "less of a scholar" or "not a scholar" if they disagree with something I say/believe because compared to the scholar, I know nothing but to accept any person as a scholar I will first want proof which establishes that the person indeed is an aalim and can be followed.

Anyways, this is so totally off-topic and I really don't want to get into this. Just get me the name of any scholar, apart from Fadhlallah, who says that Dua-e-Tawassul is not authentic.

I personally see no problem in asking an Imam to make dua for you, as long as it is done with the right intention and knowledge that they are not omnipresent, and everything is through the power of Allah swt. The problem with this is that people who dont have the right education begin to take things the wrong way and turn it into shirk, yes these are shia muslims unfortunately who go this route. I am not accusing anybody here of this, but it does happen. And sadly, people begin to forget Allah, he only becomes a word of utterance in their daily prayers.

Brother, can you show me any ONE instance where I have stated otherwise? Whatever powers the Ahlul Bayt (as) have has been given by Allah (swt). ALL power is from Allah (swt) and I don't disagree with that.

Imam Zayn al Abideen, salawat wa salam Allah 3alleh, has written a book of duas for us called Sahafiya Sajjadia, and im sure you've heard of it. Why is it that all throughout this book he does not write a dua in which we call to Imam Ali a.s.? You would think that if this was such an important way to grant our hajjat, this great Imam of ours that we are blessed to have would have taught it to us. What you do find in this book are phrases such as " be haqqi muhammad wa alee muhammad", this is because mentioning these people in our duas to Allah, we have a better chance for the dua to be answered. This is the power of the Ahlul Bayt a.s. Imams always called to Allah in times of need. Again, i have no problem with such things as long as they have the right intention, but people begin to belittle going straight to Allah, as if you must say ya ali, because if you only say ya Allah your chances take a big hit at being answered.

I really don't see what we are arguing about here. I think we BOTH agree that the power the Ahlul Bayt (as) have has been given by Allah (swt) and that they are a faster means to reach Allah (swt) and so we ask them to intercede for us. Right?

Again, your sarcastic tone and disrespect does no good for your argument, we are arguing principals, you have no right to accuse anybody here of not being a shia by putting quotation marks around the word. I am not accusing anybody of shirk, nor of takfir like the wahabis. That is not my business here or anywhere. Yet you sit and pass judgements on others. Who gave you this right?

That wasn't directed at you.

So you dont have to give any importance to umar for a sunni brother/sister, you just shouldnt go yelling "lanat lanat!" like an animal who doesnt know how to use different sounds and words lol.

Off-topic but please don't call people who send lanat, "animals". Even the Imams (as) used to curse the caliphs.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Salam brother.

You got it all wrong there. I, obviously, will not consider any particular Ayatullah as "less of a scholar" or "not a scholar" if they disagree with something I say/believe because compared to the scholar, I know nothing but to accept any person as a scholar I will first want proof which establishes that the person indeed is an aalim and can be followed.

Anyways, this is so totally off-topic and I really don't want to get into this. Just get me the name of any scholar, apart from Fadhlallah, who says that Dua-e-Tawassul is not authentic.

Salam sister,

There are many aalims who will tell you that Ayatollah Fadallah is an aalim and a marja who can be followed. In fact many people used to refer to his quranic tafsir before certain controversies and before rumors began to spread. Likewise there are some who strongly disagree with his views, but as you said this is off topic and I'd rather not get into it as well.

I have not come accross another aalim who says dua tawassul is not authentic, but I will research that for you inshallah.

Brother, can you show me any ONE instance where I have stated otherwise? Whatever powers the Ahlul Bayt (as) have has been given by Allah (swt). ALL power is from Allah (swt) and I don't disagree with that.

I really don't see what we are arguing about here. I think we BOTH agree that the power the Ahlul Bayt (as) have has been given by Allah (swt) and that they are a faster means to reach Allah (swt) and so we ask them to intercede for us. Right?

We both agree that you can ask Ahlul Bayt a.s. bi idhn illah, but in my opinion it is best to go straight to Allah like in Dua Kumayl. I see no problem in re enforcing your dua by asking them a.s., however i still dont see any assurance that they recieve our requests for them to make dua for us, rather we can only hope that Allah allows them to hear it, since all power is through Him.

Please read the Q&A's i pasted from the Ayatollah Fadlallah.

Like you said it seems we agree on most things here. And ive said over and over, its all about intentions.

Off-topic but please don't call people who send lanat, "animals". Even the Imams (as) used to curse the caliphs.

Im sorry, I did not mean anybody who sends lanat. I meant certain people who send them at the wrong times, with bad akhlaq and bad intentions, people who drive away people from shiism instead of inviting them with a good heart as our propeht (s) invited people to islam.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Salam

I have not come accross another aalim who says dua tawassul is not authentic, but I will research that for you inshallah.

Thank you. :)

We both agree that you can ask Ahlul Bayt a.s. bi idhn illah, but in my opinion it is best to go straight to Allah like in Dua Kumayl. I see no problem in re enforcing your dua by asking them a.s., however i still dont see any assurance that they recieve our requests for them to make dua for us, rather we can only hope that Allah allows them to hear it, since all power is through Him.

In a letter to Shaykh al Mufid (ar), Imam (atfs) himself has said that none of our affairs are concealed from him and that he is always aware of what circumstances we are in. His knowing is by the power of Allah (swt) and Allah (swt) does indeed allow him to be cognizant of our affairs and hear our duas.

Im sorry, I did not mean anybody who sends lanat. I meant certain people who send them at the wrong times, with bad akhlaq and bad intentions, people who drive away people from shiism instead of inviting them with a good heart as our propeht (s) invited people to islam.

Oh okay, that makes sense. You are right and I just misunderstood. My apologies.

Edited by Whizbee
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
Salam sister,

I have not come accross another aalim who says dua tawassul is not authentic, but I will research that for you inshallah.

We both agree that you can ask Ahlul Bayt a.s. bi idhn illah, but in my opinion it is best to go straight to Allah like in Dua Kumayl. I see no problem in re enforcing your dua by asking them a.s., however i still dont see any assurance that they recieve our requests for them to make dua for us, rather we can only hope that Allah allows them to hear it, since all power is through Him.

(salam)

Just for the thought...

When Muawiya raised the Qur'an during the battle of siffin and tried to safe himself from defeat.... where actually the real Qur'an (words of Allah) is? With Ali? With the written Qur'an raised by Muawiya?or With Muawiya?

Is Allah swt is with Ali (as) or with Muawiya?

When we say Allah (swt) is with Ali (as), what actually really with Ali?...it means the TRUTH with Ali.. It means the MERCIFUL is Ali.

Can Ali(as) be independent from the TRUTH? The answer is NO. Because the TRUTH / Allah swt is with him since the beginning...Ahlulbayt are the chosen ones.

When we call upon Ali (as), knowing that the TRUTH/MERCIFUL will always be with him.... Is that wrong? After all Ali (as) is alive...

So where is Rasulullah? He is alive...is Allah (swt) is with him?

Can we not ask Ali (as) to reach the TRUTH/MERCIFUL?

Layman

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Salaam Alaykum

Sayyid Fadlullah said during one of his Friday speeches:

Thus, asking them [Ahl-ul-Bayt] directly and separately to fulfill your needs in an act of ascribing partners to Allah. Nevertheless, we can ask them to intercede for us, knowing that Allah is accepts the intercession of whom He pleases. He is the Sustainer, the Creator, and the Divider. He is everything and all those who drew near to Him did so as a result of their obedience and piety… We should always remember this point to remain free of the exaggerations that undermine our religion.

This basically sums up the correct view of Tawassul.

Located here.

S/a.

This is a FAULTY Translation.

Go to ARABIC-VERSION for the original source. You will find something different.

This English quote in a faulty english translation has been confusing people un-necessarily.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Q: If I can ask Allah (The Most Exalted) and Imam Ali (a.s.) for a need, who is worthier to be asked, Allah or Imam Ali (a.s.)? Or, can we say that there is no priority? 9/18/2006 11:45:41 AM

A: Allah is the only one Whom we should ask for our needs, where as, asking Imam Ali (a.s.) only for the needs while, believing that he is the one who answers them, is considered as ascribing him as (a.s.) a partner for Allah.

Q: Is it prohibited according to Islamic law to say “o Ali” (ya Ali)? 4/18/2006 11:50:47 AM

A: It is not prohibited to say (ya Ali), as long as the supplication is not addressed to anyone except to Allah and Ahl El-Beit (a.s) are but the intercessors. Although the Niyyah (the intention) is so, it is better that one should not address in his supplication anyone except Allah.

Now this, as share by Br. Jnoub_Libnan, is the actual belief of the Sayyid.

Points to Note in A1.:

"Allah is the only one Whom we should ask for our needs"

"asking Imam Ali (a.s.) only for the needs while, believing that he is the one who answers them, is considered shirk"

Points to Note in A2.:

"as long as the supplication is not addressed to anyone except to Allah and Ahl El-Beit (a.s) are but the intercessors"

"it is better that one should not address in his supplication anyone except Allah"

_________________

I dont see the difficulty in understanding the Sayyid's statements.

In any call (DUA), there can be 2 parts:

1 -Addressing in the Asking Part.

2- Addressing in the NON-Asking Part.

The Sayyid is saying that Allah is the only one Whom we should address in the Asking Part.

And that otherwise although someone else can also be addressed, however it is better that none else be addressed at all.

To drive the point clear, I'll give an example:

It is okay to say: "Ya Allah (swt) Please help me for the sake of Ali. Oh Ali, I pray that Allah helps me for your sake".

But it is better to simply say: "Ya Allah (swt) Please help me for the sake of Ali".

In both cases, the addressing in the actual asking was to Allah (swt) alone.

The addressing of Imam Ali was not "addressing in asking", rather "addressing as a figure of speech".

And the Sayyid says: Better if these figures of speech to Imams are NOT inserted in the prayers to Allah.

Better for ALL types of addresses in the prayers to Allah, to be to Allah ONLY.

Hope this clears it up for once and for all.

Inshallah Khair. W/s.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...