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In the Name of God بسم الله

What Can I Do With My Areeza?

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A question: why do we never hear "Ya Muhammad Madad" ? can it be because (I am not being humorous here) his name is not as simply pronounced as Ali (as) , even if he is his superior? strange...

Salaam Alaykum

I believe that is the reason :!!!:

You're post inspired me, however. I'm going to try to make a habit to, when I need intercession, say "Ya Ali, Ya Muhammad, Ya [rest of Ahl-ul-Bayt] Madad!" I should ask all of Ahl-ul-Bayt (as) for intercession!

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(salam)

lol, is that your standard response to everybody who comes in contact with him? Get real, we dont need your police work. Just because he dosent share your views dosent mean you have the right to silence or sabotage his efforts. Not everybody is crazy about yelling "Ya Ali Madad", its a scary thing to do for some. Seriously!

I am not "silencing" him. I have the right to respond as I wish. Why are YOU "policing" what I say? Too scared of the truth? Let him say what he likes and I will say what I like.

A question: why do we never hear "Ya Muhammad Madad" ? can it be because (I am not being humorous here) his name is not as simply pronounced as Ali (as), even if he is his superior? strange...

Who is stopping you? :rolleyes:

Edited by Whizbee
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A question: why do we never hear "Ya Muhammad Madad" ? can it be because (I am not being humorous here) his name is not as simply pronounced as Ali (as), even if he is his superior? strange...

I believe its because no one innovated it (Ya Muhammad). At least initially.

The Ismailis innovated "Ya Ali Madad" and in sub-continent, the Ithna'asheris adopted it instantaneously.

(Not to mention that many of us have adopted hindu beliefs as well, and tend to like hindus better than other muslims)

Anyways, once people started questioning why Ali (Madad)? Then the innovation of "Ya Muhammad" promptly followed.

In the end, it seems like Allah (swt) must have gone on a long vacation and left the Ahlul-Bayt (as) in charge.

Here we see people discussing whether to call Ya Muhammad or Ya Ali.... (instead of God)

And yet Muhammad (sawa) brought in the Qur'an: Call upon HIM (Ya Allah or Ya Rahmaan, etc).

And same is the teaching of the Ahlul-Bayt (as). (See Ya Rabbi Madadtu = Ya Rabb Madad in Dua-e-Kumayl)

(But somehow ofcourse we know better than Muhammad and Ali, and flount their teachings for their "Madads")

Note: There is a difference between simply loving the Ahlul-Bayt (as) and following them.

If we follow, we'll get close to Allah (swt), if we blindly love, we can get far from Him. W/s.

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Salaam Alaykum

forgeforth: You have extremely twisted facts. Hindu beliefs? It's really funny how Nasibis twist us all up.

Anyway, the saying "Ya Ali Madad" originated WAAAY before the Ismailis came. Ismailiyyah split off from Ithna Ashariyyah following Imam Jafar as-Sadiq's (as) death. THe saying "Ya Ali Madad" was said before Imam Jafar (as) was even born! Ismailiyyah didn't even exist yet!

Also, the saying "Ya Muhammad" originated WAAAY before "Ya Ali Madad", nevermind the Ismailiyyah. "Ya Muhammad" was used in the Hadith of the Blind Man when the Prophet Muhammad (as) told a man to pray through the Prophet Muhammad (as). Even Umar (may Allah curse him) told a man to pray through the Prophet Muhammad (as). This was way before Ismailiyyah!

It doesn't matter. Tawassul isn't Wajib. You're just missing out on something extremely beneficial and something that'll help you a LOT. But it isn't Wajib, so if you don't do it you'll still be an Ithna Ashariyyah Shia Muslim. However, don't try to misguide others, Brother.

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^amazing post brother Zulfiqar Abdullah.

While we're on the topic, I remember coming across an aamal in the Mafatih al Jinan where you go into Sajdah and say (i think 100 times):

ya mawlatanee, ya fatima, istighni (If I'm not mistaken)

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Salaam Alaykum

forgeforth: You have extremely twisted facts. Hindu beliefs? It's really funny how Nasibis twist us all up.

Anyway, the saying "Ya Ali Madad" originated WAAAY before the Ismailis came. Ismailiyyah split off from Ithna Ashariyyah following Imam Jafar as-Sadiq's (as) death. THe saying "Ya Ali Madad" was said before Imam Jafar (as) was even born! Ismailiyyah didn't even exist yet!

Also, the saying "Ya Muhammad" originated WAAAY before "Ya Ali Madad", nevermind the Ismailiyyah. "Ya Muhammad" was used in the Hadith of the Blind Man when the Prophet Muhammad (as) told a man to pray through the Prophet Muhammad (as). Even Umar (may Allah curse him) told a man to pray through the Prophet Muhammad (as). This was way before Ismailiyyah!

It doesn't matter. Tawassul isn't Wajib. You're just missing out on something extremely beneficial and something that'll help you a LOT. But it isn't Wajib, so if you don't do it you'll still be an Ithna Ashariyyah Shia Muslim. However, don't try to misguide others, Brother.

1. The blind man was talking to Muhammad, so that does'nt count.

2. Caliph Umar's words don't count, at least for me.

3. "Ya Ali Madad" was brought by Agha-Khan I when he moved from Afghanistan to India (in 1800s).

ps: Nade-Ali is not considered authentic by the Ithna'asheri scholars.

Also keep in mind that Ismailis were majority of Shia at one time.

So we must be careful to separate us from them and their deviant beliefs.

Under the umbrella of "Shi'at" we are vulnerable to adopting their current and past deviance. W/s.

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^amazing post brother Zulfiqar Abdullah.

While we're on the topic, I remember coming across an aamal in the Mafatih al Jinan where you go into Sajdah and say (i think 100 times):

ya mawlatanee, ya fatima, istighni (If I'm not mistaken)

S/a. Actually it is 500 times (in various postures of Sajdah).

It is amazing that we read such things without question. What happened to our Intellect?

Do you see how everything particular to Allah (swt) has got infused with the Ahlul-Bayt (as)?

When Shaytaan failed to defeat the Ahlul-Bayt from outside, he invaded the hearts from inside.

He could not defeat the Ahlul-Bayt and their mission with the swords of the enemies, so then he used deception....

Make the lovers raise the Ahlul-Bayt (as) to stations of divinity or semi-divinity and quash the mission this way.

In other words, squash the mission of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) using their own lovers....

Otherwise, why did Imam Sadiq (as) warn us to throw away anything that does NOT conform to Qur'an?

And why did he say it at the point that someone was exagerating about his father, Imam Baqir (as)?

Nowadays, - in Sajdah - Calling upon Fatima, in accidents upon Imam Ali, in travel upon Imam Reza,

- for Hajaat, upon Hz. Abbas and Imam Kazim, for children upon Imam Husain, etc.. etc.,..

If this is not divinity in similitude to the people of *****, then what is it ? What are we doing ?!

On the flip-

Where are the Shia who say that Imams taught us to call Allah in Sajdah? So we do that.

Where are the Shia who say that Imams taught us to call Allah when in accidents or for sudden help?

Where are the Shia who say that Imams taught us to seek protection of Allah in travel? So we do it.

Where are the Shia who say that Imams taught us to submit our Hajaat to Allah? So we do that.

Where are the Shia who say that Imams taught us to ask Allah (swt) for children? So we do that.

By the way, there are ayahs for each of these items in the Holy Quran.

Also, do we read Dua-e-Kumayl for fun? As an entertainment? or for its music? A pity.

For after all, these Duas are powerful in their message of Tawheed and Azmat-e-Ilahi.

To see what the Imams believed, we must read Authentic Duas from them, and diligently...

Apparently their version of Tawheed is at opposites to our rituals today.

I don't say that believe me blindly. Lets go read Quran for ourselves and figure.

Lets not fear to touch the holy book. Lets read it, by ourselves, with our own eyes and sense.

Similarly, lets pick up Kumayl, Mashlool, Makarimal Akhlaaq, Saheefa-e-Sajjadiya, Dua-e-Arafah, etc.

Inshallah Khair. W/s.

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Salaam Alaykum

1. The blind man was talking to Muhammad, so that does'nt count.

All those with Knowledge of Hadith agree: the man wasn't talking directly to the Prophet Muhammad (as) , but through Tawassul.

2. Caliph Umar's words don't count, at least for me.

But it still disproves what you said about "Ya Muhammad" being an innovation of the Ismailiyyah (who came after Imam Jafar's (as) death in 148 AH).

Also, Malik ibn Anas, the starter of the Sunni Maliki Madhab, told a man to use Tawassul. Malik died way before the Ismailiyyah and before the 1800s.

"Why do you want to turn away from the Prophet (s) when he (Prophet Muhammad (s)) is the wasilah (means) for you and for your father Adam, towards Allah on the Day of Resurrection. Turn to him (the Prophet) and seek his intercession (shafa'at)." - Malik ibn Anas (Al-Mughni ma' al-Sharh, vol. 3, p. 588; al-Sharh al-Kabir ma' al-Mughni, vol. 3, p. 494; al-Qadi `Iyad in al-Shifa (2:92-93))

Malik ibn Anas died before the 1800s.

3. "Ya Ali Madad" was brought by Agha-Khan I when he moved from Afghanistan to India (in 1800s).

ps: Nade-Ali is not considered authentic by the Ithna'asheri scholars.

1) Nad-e-Ali was written before 1800, so even if it wasn't authentic it still proves that "Ya Ali Madad" came about before the Ismailiyyah and before the 1800s.

2) Du'a-e-Tawassul is agreed upon as authentic by all of the Scholars. Du'a-e-Tawassul was written by one of our Imams (as) , Imam Hassan al-Askari (as) . It is on the authority of Ibn Babawayh. Du'a-e-Tawassul is a Du'a asking all of Ahl-ul-Bayt (as) to pray to Allah for the person praying Du'a-e-Tawassul. It starts with "O Allah, I ask you through...".

While Du'a-e-Tawassul doesn't say "Ya Ali Madad", it does ask all of Ahl-ul-Bayt for help. "Madad" means "Help" in Arabic, thus meaning that the Du'a basically says "Ya Ali Madad" when it addresses Imam Ali (as) . I again say that this Du'a is authentic according to the Scholars and it was written by our Penultimate Imam, the 11th Imam, Imam Hassan al-Askari (as) and it is on the authority of Ibn Babawayh.

Also keep in mind that Ismailis were majority of Shia at one time.

When was this?

NOTE: The reason why I say that something happened "before 1800" is because you said that an Aga Khan invented "Ya Ali Madad" in the 1800s and brought it to the Indians. In another post, you said that "Ya Muhammad" was made after "Ya Ali Madad". Thus, you are saying that "Ya Muhammad" was made during or after the 1800s.

Edited by ZulfiqarAbdullah
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to salah,

Ya Muhammad

Ya Ali

Ya Muntazarul Mahdi

....

all are the short version of Tawassul.

Do you know the meaning of the whole dua e Tawassul?

bro Zulfiqar,

We do not need to prove these things to them. They know very well than you and me about the dua tawassul for years. But still they protest the tawassul. I said it 'tawassul' since Ya Ali is the short version of tawassul.

Fee Amnaillah.

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You are entitled to your own opinion. I grant you that. However, when you start questioning other people's religion (i.e. whether they are shia or not, scroll up, your words were "u even a shia??"), you are being judgmental.

chill out...could be sarcasm....could be a genuine question....could be in banter.....subjective

whose judging now?

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to salah,

Ya Muhammad

Ya Ali

Ya Muntazarul Mahdi

....

all are the short version of Tawassul.

Do you know the meaning of the whole dua e Tawassul?

bro Zulfiqar,

We do not need to prove these things to them. They know very well than you and me about the dua tawassul for years. But still they protest the tawassul. I said it 'tawassul' since Ya Ali is the short version of tawassul.

Fee Amnaillah.

(salam)

Who established it?

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(salam)

I said it out of honest concern. I believe in tawasul, I respect tawasul, infact I hope to good God that my tawasul (in the day) be accepted. But I thank no one but Allah (swt), here is where we differ. I see tawasul as a great achievement and a gift to be raised and be counted (InshaAllah) with those whom are called true muslims true shia of the the faith of God Almighty. I do not believe it is a thing similar to say "Ya Ali" or "Ya Jafar" in a forum or to greet in a post with "Ya Ali Madad everyone", one says Salam Aleikum as told in Holy Quran. I also do not believe in condeming anyone of anything. The hostilty to those who dont believe in in saying "Ya [abc] madad" is really uncalled for. Its is not part of any core belief of Islam, nor is it proclaimed in any fundamental way as necessary, it is however done with great eagerness wich is quite strange as it is not anything we are thought by Ahlul Bayt (as). And worst of all, it is the illusion that we cannot fault. This is the work of satan. Yes we have quran, yes we have the Ahlul Bayt (as). But which interpretation ( of the Quran) do you fallow, how do you view Ahlul Bayt (as) as the second safeguard, is it their teachings or them as symbols/idols of some secret truth be it what it be. The point is we are at risk to fault as all the other nations before us. We must not be arrogant.

Saying "Ya Ali Madad" instead of Salam alaikum is Tawassul? Where did you get that from? :blink: Actually it's VERY wrong. YOu should always greet another Muslim with a Salam and not a "Ya Ali Madad".

Seriously, go learn what Tawassul is and what your friend forgeforth is against before saying anything further. :wacko:

Salam.

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2. Caliph Umar's words don't count, at least for me.

Why not?

bro Dj, may be you are talking about some kind of Tawassul but be alert that sijda is for Allah and in your duas tawassul is through Masumeen (a). That's it.

I was just pointing out aamaal from the Mafatih.

Similarly let us pick up Ziyarat Ashura and carefully read what has been narrated to recite at the end while doing Sajdah.

Good point It should be adressed

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S/a.

I was talking about the introduction of "Ya Ali Madad" into India, in the 1800s. The Ismailis have been around for centuries, and claim a history as long as our own, because after all we do meet up at the 6th Imam. Also note, the Ismailis were not the only ghullaat. Tons of deviances have occured in the Shia and every few centuries they are cleaned out... with many being classified as deviant shia exaggerator sects (ghalis) of the past. And those past ghalis might not exist anymore, but their deviances still exist in our (unchanged) books. Thats why we need constant research & redress. And the example of swift adoption of "Ya Ali Madad" from the Ismailis, gives us a clue into how quickly we could have assimilated tons of other deviances along the way. This is why we constantly need to return to the basic rules and align ourselves therewith, rejecting anything that clashes with the basics of Tawheed.

As for when the Ismailis (and other ghalis were the majority), read about the times when the bigh powers in Egypt (Fatimids, etc) and big parts of Iran / Afghanistan (Fedayeen, Pre-Fedayeen, etc) were under the Ismailis. Also read about the variety of sects that cropped up, even as early as after karbala. Apparently, the group led by Mukhtar-e-Thaqafi believed in Muhammad-e-Hanafiya as Imam. The zaydis believed in Zayd bin Ali as Imam. These divisions were cropping up that soon. There were tens of them throughout the ages,... and almost all of them have eventually been absorbed back into Ithna'ashariyyah, BUT so have many of their practices and beliefs. And our books are filled with them too. Our scholars believe that a third or more of Al-Kafi has these deviants beliefs... Thats why we do not call our books sahih, and we have to keep researching issues, and cleansing ourselves. Unfortunately, sometimes we take the deviant beliefs as our own and defend them vehemently, not knowing that they were never really ours, and in fact against our own.

In the end, for many cases, we'll never even know what their true origin was. However, we will be able to identify that these items were really not from the Imams, because Imam Sadiq (as) said that if a saying attributed to Ahlul-Bayt comes to you and it is against the (basic) teachings of the Quran, then through it away, because it means that it is a lie and a fabrication. Armed with this idea and force from Imam Sadiq (as), we will Inshallah succeed in cleansing ourselves.

W/s.

ps: Dua-e-Tawassul has been deemed unauthentic, by some scholars. And also I heard that Agha Fadhlallah mentioned that some parts of Ziyarat-e-Ashura are also non-authentic.. but I dont know which ones. In any case, as relates to issues of ahadith, we dont even need scholarly research of Rijaal for determination in basics. Rijaal might not catch every instance of deviation... But comparing with the Holy Quran, this will capture all the major important instances of deviation. And Especially when the Quran is supported by the commonly accepted and non-controversial duas such as Kumayl, Mashlool, Makarimal-Akhlaaq, Aarafah, Saheefah-e-Sajjadiyah, etc. then it helps even more.

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Saying "Ya Ali Madad" instead of Salam alaikum is Tawassul? Where did you get that from? :blink: Actually it's VERY wrong. YOu should always greet another Muslim with a Salam and not a "Ya Ali Madad".

Seriously, go learn what Tawassul is and what your friend forgeforth is against before saying anything further. :wacko:

Salam.

My words:

I do not believe it is a thing similar to say "Ya Ali" or "Ya Jafar" in a forum or to greet in a post with "Ya Ali Madad everyone", one says Salam Aleikum as told in Holy Quran.

I have never greeted anyone with "Ya Ali Madad", however you will learn sister, that many here do... and I guess then :squeez: would be appropriate

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Saying "Ya Ali Madad" instead of Salam alaikum is Tawassul? Where did you get that from? :blink: Actually it's VERY wrong. YOu should always greet another Muslim with a Salam and not a "Ya Ali Madad".

Seriously, go learn what Tawassul is and what your friend forgeforth is against before saying anything further. :wacko:

Salam.

Salaam Alaykum

Some Shia replace "Salaam Alaykum" with "Ya Ali Madad". It's pretty stupid and has no basis. It's just another act of defiance from some anti-Usulis.

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chill out...could be sarcasm....could be a genuine question....could be in banter.....subjective

whose judging now?

The context in which you said it definitely would not be taken as banter by anyone. If it's sarcasm, there's no need for that when he obviously was asking a serious question. If it's a "genuine question", it can be deduced that it arose from being judgmental because in the preceding lines you talked about your disgust. While it may not be a serious matter for you to question someone else's religion because they had a serious question, it definitely is a serious matter for them. This forum is the place to ask questions without having one's religious identity at stake.

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(salam)

The late Ayatollah al Khoei (r.a.) has said that belief in ominispresence for anybody other than Allah is shirk. The Ahlul Bayt a.s. are not omnipresent.

So for those of you who do choose to say "ya ali", I hope you dont believe your request for dua is heard directly by the Imam, it must go through Allah first, as the intention of the request should be towards Allah. It is permissable to say "ya ali" as long as it is directed to Allah alone, and ahlul bayt a.s. are only the intercessors. But it is best to ask from Allah, as shown in the most virtuous of duas like kumayl.

Also, for one of those hadiths about the blind man and umar, if im not mistaken i think one of them says "bi muhammad" or "bi haqqi muhammad" - (by muhammad (s)). I dont think it says "ya muhammad", unless in direct contact with the prophet (s). Please correct me if i am wrong.

Edited by Jnoub Libnan
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(salam)

WHY DONT U TRY FLUSH UR PARENST PICTURE DOWN D TOILET... SEE HOW MUCH DSRESPECT IT SHOWS, WELL IF UR A SHIA, HOW CAN U SEND HOLY STUFF LIKE DAT, INTO d SEWERS, WHER PEOPLE EXCRETE THEIR DROPPING.... FINK BOU FINGS CAREFULLY BRO... CUZ ITS SO OBVIOUSLY, IS LIKE FLUSHING D QURAN DOWN D TOILET... NO OFFENCE OR NUFIN... BUT U REALLY GOTA THINK ABOUT THIS...

N STOP ALL THE FIGHTINg... HE WAS JUST ASKING BEFORE HE ACTUALLY DOEN IT... LEAST HE DIDNT DO IT RYT?

w/salaam

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The context in which you said it definitely would not be taken as banter by anyone. If it's sarcasm, there's no need for that when he obviously was asking a serious question. If it's a "genuine question", it can be deduced that it arose from being judgmental because in the preceding lines you talked about your disgust. While it may not be a serious matter for you to question someone else's religion because they had a serious question, it definitely is a serious matter for them. This forum is the place to ask questions without having one's religious identity at stake.

GO police' the rest of the forum....i dont need to justify the context to you....u r making ur own judgements re: context

who r u to tell me how to behave or what i meant....WHO R U TO TELL ME TO LOOK IN THE MIRROR....thats hypocrisy.......YOU ARE JUDGING ME....WHAT THE HELL HAS IT GOT TO DO WITH YOU???? I was speaking to the OP .....NOT YOU..... again i reiterate my earlier point....its all subjective....go and get a consensus

For the record...me asking him whether he is shia or not...was a GENUINE QUESTION....i honestly thougt it was a wahabi/shia hater takin the mick....THAT WAS AND IS MY OPINION.....OPINION being the operative word.....which I am allowed to express on this DISCUSSION FORUM....dont get on ur moral high horse with me and criticise me for doing the same....in MY OPINION it defies all logic/ethics to even suggest such a notion ie flushing holy names down the toilet and communicating with the infallibles thru that medium

now stop hijackin this thread ......take it to pm's ....UR more bothered about my 'attack' on the OP then he is himself......

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The late Ayatollah al Khoei (r.a.) has said that belief in ominispresence for anybody other than Allah is shirk. The Ahlul Bayt a.s. are not omnipresent.

I don't think anybody disagrees with that.

So for those of you who do choose to say "ya ali", I hope you dont believe your request for dua is heard directly by the Imam, it must go through Allah first, as the intention of the request should be towards Allah. It is permissable to say "ya ali" as long as it is directed to Allah alone, and ahlul bayt a.s. are only the intercessors. But it is best to ask from Allah, as shown in the most virtuous of duas like kumayl.

The Ahlul Bayt (as) help us with the consent of Allah (swt) and by the power granted by him to them.

You can never comprehend what position they have infront of Allah (swt). The other day my father was telling me how there are some sermons of Ali (as) which weren't included in the Nahjul Balagha because the compiler feared that people might start worshipping Ali (as) and consider him to be God. The power given to them is great and tawassul to them is just a small part of it.

ps: Dua-e-Tawassul has been deemed unauthentic, by some scholars. And also I heard that Agha Fadhlallah mentioned that some parts of Ziyarat-e-Ashura are also non-authentic.. but I dont know which ones. In any case, as relates to issues of ahadith, we dont even need scholarly research of Rijaal for determination in basics. Rijaal might not catch every instance of deviation... But comparing with the Holy Quran, this will capture all the major important instances of deviation. And Especially when the Quran is supported by the commonly accepted and non-controversial duas such as Kumayl, Mashlool, Makarimal-Akhlaaq, Aarafah, Saheefah-e-Sajjadiyah, etc. then it helps even more.

Agha Fadhlallah eh? You have some proof for that? Though I really don't think it is a good idea to try and prove your point with Agha Fadhlallah's stance as proof.

And which scholars consider Dua-e-Tawassul to be unauthentic?

My words:

I have never greeted anyone with "Ya Ali Madad", however you will learn sister, that many here do... and I guess then :squeez: would be appropriate

I know they do and they are wrong.

Some Shia replace "Salaam Alaykum" with "Ya Ali Madad". It's pretty stupid and has no basis. It's just another act of defiance from some anti-Usulis.

LOL yeah, I know. This time I argued with this "malang" and he goes " We only greet *real* Muslims with a Salam"

That would be other malangs, I presume :blink:

Edited by Whizbee
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(salam)

BASICALLY BROTEHRS AND SISTERS... HERES MY VIEWS

I WALKED INTO SOME RELIGIOUS THING THAT WAS GOING ON IN ILFORD...

I SAID SALAAM 2 EVRY1 2 SEE HU D MUSLIMS WERE.... THEN I SAID YA ALI MADAD... AND FRM D EXPRESSION IN DER FACES... U CAN TELL WHETHER THEY ARE DUSHMANS OF TEH AHLULBAYT... OR UNDERCOVER LOVERS

W/SALAAM

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I don't think anybody disagrees with that.

The Ahlul Bayt (as) help us with the consent of Allah (swt) and by the power granted by him to them.

You can never comprehend what position they have infront of Allah (swt). The other day my father was telling me how there are some sermons of Ali (as) which weren't included in the Nahjul Balagha because the compiler feared that people might start worshipping Ali (as) and consider him to be God. The power given to them is great and tawassul to them is just a small part of it.

Agha Fadhlallah eh? You have some proof for that? Though I really don't think it is a good idea to try and prove your point with Agha Fadhlallah's stance as proof.

(salam)

Ayatollah Fadhlallah believes the lines including the lanat are not authentic. But that is another discussion for another day.

How do you know the Ahlul Bayt a.s. help us? The proof shown earlier was that they make dua for us, not help us themselves. If Allah gives them the power to help us, great! but how do you know he did brother/sister? The qur'an is clear on asking for hajjat alone from Allah. Now you are saying you are asking for hajjat from ahlul bayt a.s., that is not right according to Islam. This notion of them having the power to help us makes no sense since the Quran says not to make dua to anybody but Allah, so you can throw whatever is said about them helping us from their graves out the window. The Ahlul Bayt a.s. making dua for us to Allah is a different topic, please dont mix this up with that.

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Ayatollah Fadhlallah believes the lines including the lanat are not authentic. But that is another discussion for another day.

There is nothing to discuss there.

How do you know the Ahlul Bayt a.s. help us? The proof shown earlier was that they make dua for us, not help us themselves. If Allah gives them the power to help us, great! but how do you know he did brother/sister? The qur'an is clear on asking for hajjat alone from Allah. Now you are saying you are asking for hajjat from ahlul bayt a.s., that is not right according to Islam. This notion of them having the power to help us makes no sense since the Quran says not to make dua to anybody but Allah, so you can throw whatever is said about them helping us from their graves out the window. The Ahlul Bayt a.s. making dua for us to Allah is a different topic, please dont mix this up with that.

1) Tawassul itself is helping by asking God to accept our Duas.

2) Yes, they themselves do help us too. There have been times when Imam (atfs) has physically come to help people or even helped them through ghayb and many incidents have been recorded about this. Not just the present Imam (atfs) but the previous Imams (as) too do help people. There is this incident about Imam Musa Kadhim (as) helping Allamah Amini when he was in Baghadad but I won't elaborate because I don't see the point in trying to prove anything to you. I am not here to convince you or anybody else of anything. I believe they help, you don't. That's fine by me.

Salam.

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1) Tawassul itself is helping by asking God to accept our Duas.

2) Yes, they themselves do help us too. There have been times when Imam (atfs) has physically come to help people or even helped them through ghayb and many incidents have been recorded about this. Not just the present Imam (atfs) but the previous Imams (as) too do help people. There is this incident about Imam Musa Kadhim (as) helping Allamah Amini when he was in Baghadad but I won't elaborate because I don't see the point in trying to prove anything to you. I am not here to convince you or anybody else of anything. I believe they help, you don't. That's fine by me.

Salam.

(salam)

Nobody said they cant help us, nobody denied there have been times where Allah granted them the power to help us. But yelling ya ali madad from canada to someone who is not omnipresent is different from going to Imam Ali a.s. during his time and asking him, ya ali please help me i have a problem.

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(salam)

Nobody said they cant help us, nobody denied there have been times where Allah granted them the power to help us. But yelling ya ali madad from canada to someone who is not omnipresent is different from going to Imam Ali a.s. during his time and asking him, ya ali please help me i have a problem.

How do you know the Ahlul Bayt a.s. help us? The proof shown earlier was that they make dua for us, not help us themselves. If Allah gives them the power to help us, great! but how do you know he did brother/sister? The qur'an is clear on asking for hajjat alone from Allah. Now you are saying you are asking for hajjat from ahlul bayt a.s., that is not right according to Islam. This notion of them having the power to help us makes no sense since the Quran says not to make dua to anybody but Allah, so you can throw whatever is said about them helping us from their graves out the window. The Ahlul Bayt a.s. making dua for us to Allah is a different topic, please dont mix this up with that.

:unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure:

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Since those who give their lives fighting for the sake of Allah or those killed while doing Ibadat have got shahadat and it is advised in Quran as to not speak of them as dead,they are alive and get a much better sustenance from Allah.Sorry I said that in my own words.I don't remember the ayat where it is only can tell you the translation in my own words.So when somebody is alive as being told in the Quran of those shuhada , then do you think it is right to say they are dead and can't help us.

You err a lot when you say that saying " Ya Moula Adrikni" is wrong.It is right.

IT IS NOT WAJIB TO WRITE AREEZA.If you do not have a river nearby then do not write because it is sin what you talk about.

Edited by Muslim_shia
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:unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure:

(salam)

Again, Allah can give them power to do things, but who told you he gave them the power in their graves? Who told you they can hear you in their graves? If you want to ask Allah to let them help you from their graves go ahead, but its going right back to Allah anyways. If the Imam was here to ask, i would rush to him myself and ask. But please answer to me why i should DIRECT MY DUAS to someone who is it is not allowed to direct my duas towards. You are saying you direct your duas to them, you call to them for help, please prove to me why this is allowed, I am honestly open to changing my beliefs if your proof is strong enough for me. But tell me, do you believe it is ok to supplicate to ahlul bayt a.s.?

Since those who give their lives fighting for the sake of Allah or those killed while doing Ibadat have got shahadat and it is advised in Quran as to not speak of them as dead,they are alive and get a much better sustenance from Allah.Sorry I said that in my own words.I don't remember the ayat where it is only can tell you the translation in my own words.So when somebody is alive as being told in the Quran of those shuhada , then do you think it is right to say they are dead and can't help us.

You err a lot when you say that saying " Ya Moula Adrikni" is wrong.It is right.

IT IS NOT WAJIB TO WRITE AREEZA.If you do not have a river nearby then do not write because it is sin what you talk about.

Salam brother,

I know the verse you are talking about. It says they are alive and recieve sustenance from their lord, but where does it say they give sustenance?

Again, i believe this is all in your intention. If you dont believe the imams are omnipresent, and everything goes through Allah, then thats fine, but i think it is better to go straight to Allah in such cases. Again dont get this mixed up with asking someone to make dua for you while you are in their presence. This is a completely different subject.

Inshallah this discussion does not cause any hate or dislike, since we are only discussing and giving each other our information so we can move forward in our Islam and learn, even if it is not our belief we should always ponder upon other beliefs. We should be able to respect each other in our discussions since we are all Muslims and followers of Ahlul Bayt alayhom asalam.

wsalam.

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In the end, it seems like Allah (swt) must have gone on a long vacation and left the Ahlul-Bayt (as) in charge.

(salam)

Please do not make a statement that will implicate yourself.....

If Allah swt wants Ahlul bayt to take care the whole universe on HIS behalf, that won't make Allah swt lower HIS status. Since you don't understand spirituality, you always talk nonsense. There are two parallel realities: spiritual and physical. The spiritual world exist, and the Souls of Ahlulbayt are alive. All the Souls are interconnected in the spiritual world and can communicate to each others via heart if a person wanted it. Muslims are brothers...that means we are connected. You can feel the pain of Imam Hussain (as) at Karbala. You can feel the pain and joy of the Prophet (pbuh), even though the Prophet is physically dead. If the heart and souls are not connected, no one can feel the pains of others. It is beyond physical means.

The Prophet (pbuh) said" I leave among you two weighty things: Qu'an and Ahlulbayt, you will never be misguided if you follow both of them" If both are dead (spiritually), then we are not allowed to follow non living entities.

When a shahid is dead physically, his souls will be alive. Alive means not disconnected to this world. Death means go to another physical world called "barzarkh". But the alive souls are connected to the spiritual reality that govern existing universe. There always exist the "kingdom" that govern us, it is unseen to us. The Angels, Prophets, Walis, Auliya, shahid are living in that "government"...The Ahlulbayt is the Administrator of that Kingdom. When we connect our souls to Ahlulbayt, all we talk is ONLY Allah swt...we praise Allah swt, we hope for Allah swt, we make SOLAT for Allah swt....we NEVER forget for a second the remembrance of Allah swt with the GUIDEs of the Ahlulbayt, the adminstrator.

We as humans have two realities: the physical being and a spiritual being. We are connected to the Ahlulbayt in the spiritual world. We can choose to be connected to Ahlulbayt if we want to. The condition is to be sincere slave of Allah(swt) by following Ahlulbayt (swt).

Ahlulbayt are the caretaker (Imamat) of physical and spiritual world, both. Eventhough the munafiqs have taken away their physical part of leadership, the spiritual part remains intact.

Now, there are individuals who also wanted to take the right of spiritual leadership of Ahlulbayt from us....by blaming us as "ghulat", "hindus"...."musyrik"....and accused us to abandon Allah swt and focus to Ahlulbayt (as) alone.

Unless these people hijab is opened to them, they will behave like iblis. Allah swt asked iblis to make sajdah to Adam (as), he refused. Iblis spiritual eyes do not exist, only his logic exist. He did not see the LIGHT of Allah swt in the souls of Adam (as). That LIGHT is the RULER of the Universe....and that LIGHT is embbed in the HEART of Adam (as).

Wassalam.

Layman

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