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In the Name of God بسم الله

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No you are not stating the Imami Perspective at all. You are only copy/pasting random ahadith to mock imami beliefs. If you continue with this non-sense, I will have to ban you for good.

Well you are the admin so obviously you get to decide who stays or not. I can't argue with that.

But......I'm not mocking the shia imami perspective.

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salam :) im a die heart fan of khanum tayyaba bukhari :wub: and although i do agree with you guys that she is expensive but then you shud keep in mind that raising 4 kids is not easy 4 a single moth

I suggest you either be "politically correct" in your responses or change your tone. Whilst you have the right to criticise any school within or outside of Islam, we do not appreciate random newbies s

Salaams, ya ALI(as) madad I know this thread is really old but id really like to add my comments I heard Khanum live for the first time on friday(16th dec) and again yesterday (sat 17th dec) and i am

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^^^ Uh Oh..! so not long since our discussion lol...

Bas aunty ji, dua kariyay kay mods ka irada badal jaey.

Ab to aap ko ma'loom ho gaya hoga kay mods kiun hath dho kar meray peechay paray rahtay hain. Aimma(AS) ki ahadith kuch logon ko pasand nahin aati.

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Well you are the admin so obviously you get to decide who stays or not. I can't argue with that.

But......I'm not mocking the shia imami perspective.

I suggest you either be "politically correct" in your responses or change your tone. Whilst you have the right to criticise any school within or outside of Islam, we do not appreciate random newbies signing in to (what appears to be a) mock of our school of thought.

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I suggest you either be "politically correct" in your responses or change your tone. Whilst you have the right to criticise any school within or outside of Islam, we do not appreciate random newbies signing in to (what appears to be a) mock of our school of thought.

Well, this is what Macisaac told me regarding the guidelines for posting about women:

As to the women issue, it would have been more effective if you'd quoted the hadiths. They aren't used to hearing this stuff having been fed tellytubby shiism by those who are supposed to know better. There's a lot of work to be done.

These were the general guidelines:

And while I might not share all of your views, obviously I find much in there that is quite close to my own in terms of pushing for a pure, orthodoxy Imami perspective. As we both know, there is a lot of nonsense that gets peddled out there by jahil people in the name of Tashayyu`.

So anyhow, I would like you to stay on board _but_ I want to ask you to be careful in regards to how you express yourself. I won't fault you for holding to your beliefs firmly nor for your impatience and intolerance of deviation, but still, this is a public forum and it doesn't serve your cause much good when you shift from the facts onto to personal attacks. What happens then is that people won't pay attention to what you are saying, but instead focus on the person saying it. Doesn't mean you can't throw the odd well-timed hit in here and there (I'm not one to hold too much back myself) but still, be judicious in how you do that. I personally know how hard it can be, but really sometimes we just need to bite our tongues. Like myself, you hold views that a lot of Shi`as aren't going to be used to hearing, and their first reaction can be knee jerk rejection since it's so different from what they've been told. We both know however that often what is popular is not necessarily what sources actually teach. The point though is to bring people to those sources, not to oneself. So, instead of simply stating the conclusion, give people the source. Quote the hadith, quote the ancient scholar, even without commenting on it. It's much harder for them to argue against what an Imam is saying.

I believe, I'm pretty much within the defined boundaries. Anyhow, you're the admin.

BTW, I'd made a post earlier in the "suggest improvements" section but for some reason it's being ignored.

Edited by Bhooka_Bhairiya
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Tayyaba Bukhari was on GEO today along with Samia Qazi of Jamat-e-Islami and spoke beautifully. The topic was the role of women in Karbala and Islam in general.

That's quite surprising because at most majalis, she doesn't even allow her VOICE to be recorded.

:s

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Asalam-o-Aliakum

brothers and sisters!!

I went thoroughly through the whole debate over Syed Khannum Tayyaba Bukhari. No doubt of her interminable and premium knowledge.She is a well known scholar of islam and Maqtab-e-Tashau.Her style is worth appreciation.I have been to manier of her Majalis and always found her humble and kind.Brothers and Sisters! I,through this plat form would like to just say that according to shariah,a non mahram CAN listen to a women but under certain constraints.The way Khannum speaks is NOT as to wellcome any unislamic thinking.The whole debate is over her make up and being expensive.Khannum delivers majlis for women only and still she is perfectly in FULL ISLAMIC HIJAB.On the question over her makeup,i would just like to say that its part of female nature.However she should not wear make up when in between non mahrams(and she does NOT!!!).She as being an Islamic scholar,is an admirable personality.

Brothers and Sisters!

When we actually criticize her,through this plat form,this actually(in my opinion) is ghaibat. Quran,regarding Ghaibat Says:Do not back bite for who amongst you would like to eat the meat of your dead brother?

Secondly,with due respect,i say that we never know how near she may be to Allah and criticizing her (or any muslim) or back bitting thus, means collecting the wrath of Allah.

Thus brothers and sisters.I request you all to please STOP criticizing Khannum Tayyaba Bukhari and instead utilize that time in the welfare of the society and try to bring your self up to her level and then only you have the right to criticize such a big scholar.

According to a well known saying:Small minds discus people while big minds discus ideas.So THINK! whats happening around us and try to unite muslim umah and help the suffering humanity.

Wasalm

Your obediant

Fatima Zahra

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molvi jaelouse of khanum .he dont know how to adress and real knowledge thats why they have jealouse

Asalam-o-Aliakum

plz sis/bro lets not pin point any one here but the fact that she has greater knowledge,is pious and after all saying any thing at someones back is a great SIN in itself.So yeh i admire her,i am her wanna be and she is my ideal.May god shower His blessings on her(Ameen)

Eltimas-e-Dua

Wasalam

your oediant

Fatima Zahra

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Asalam-o-Aliakum

brothers and sisters!!

I went thoroughly through the whole debate over Syed Khannum Tayyaba Bukhari. No doubt of her interminable and premium knowledge.She is a well known scholar of islam and Maqtab-e-Tashau.Her style is worth appreciation.I have been to manier of her Majalis and always found her humble and kind.Brothers and Sisters! I,through this plat form would like to just say that according to shariah,a non mahram CAN listen to a women but under certain constraints.The way Khannum speaks is NOT as to wellcome any unislamic thinking.The whole debate is over her make up and being expensive.Khannum delivers majlis for women only and still she is perfectly in FULL ISLAMIC HIJAB.On the question over her makeup,i would just like to say that its part of female nature.However she should not wear make up when in between non mahrams(and she does NOT!!!).She as being an Islamic scholar,is an admirable personality.

Brothers and Sisters!

When we actually criticize her,through this plat form,this actually(in my opinion) is ghaibat. Quran,regarding Ghaibat Says:Do not back bite for who amongst you would like to eat the meat of your dead brother?

Secondly,with due respect,i say that we never know how near she may be to Allah and criticizing her (or any muslim) or back bitting thus, means collecting the wrath of Allah.

Thus brothers and sisters.I request you all to please STOP criticizing Khannum Tayyaba Bukhari and instead utilize that time in the welfare of the society and try to bring your self up to her level and then only you have the right to criticize such a big scholar.

According to a well known saying:Small minds discus people while big minds discus ideas.So THINK! whats happening around us and try to unite muslim umah and help the suffering humanity.

Wasalm

Your obediant

Fatima Zahra

Salam Fatima sahiba,

Here are my thoughts on this topic and on ur post as well:

1. Sister, the definition of gheeba does not apply here cuz, Sister Tayyaba Bukhair is a public figure. As a public person, we need to analyze each and every aspect of their life and kinda gauge whether he or she is eligible to be the representative of Ahlul Bayt a.s.

2. Getting on the pulpit is a PRIVILEGE, it is not her Right!!!!!

A person who gets on the pulpit enjoys tremendous powers, powers that u and i can't even imagine. This privilege is given to them by Ahlul Bayt a.s. And our Ahlul Bayt a.s. have already set the criteria for such persons.

3. If she charges a reasonable amount to cover her expense, no problems however, if a person charges thru the roof to read a majlis, he or she needs to be criticized regardless of how good he/she is in delivering the message. The message of Husain a.s. should not be converted into dollar bills.

The message of Allah was delivered by the purest and the most infallible personality ever, Muhammad pbuh. We need to look at both, the message n the person conveying the message. If he/she doesn't practice what he/she preaches... too bad, he/she aint worth listening to!

I kinda like ur thot process thou. Sometimes, we do go over board in criticizing our scholars to the point where it is not objective any more.

WS

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(salam)

I was reading only and exactly what you wrote, and nothing into it. I take it that the latest version is what you are standing by. So who are the ones accused of having reacted to her majalis with

i think who they objection of her they are truely wrong person and jealace of her.

she is one of the best adresser of the world in that time people jealuss of her

i think who they objection of her they are truely wrong person and jealace of her.

she is one of the best adresser of the world in that time people jealuss of her

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Salaams, ya ALI(as) madad

I know this thread is really old but id really like to add my comments

I heard Khanum live for the first time on friday(16th dec) and again yesterday (sat 17th dec) and i am completely in awe of this woman.

My observations, first hand, she looks as though she is wearing make up but upon getting close, i could not see any.

She was polite, friendly and took time to meet people as she was leaving even though she was unwell. She smiled and spoke to the majma rather than "at" us.

Her oratory skills are i feel second to none and she has an amazing amount of knowledge.

Regarding hadiya, i have been told that she wont say no to reciting for less but "people give what they feel she deserves and that is sometimes £400, £500 or £600 not including a share of the cost of an air ticket which us divided between all the jamaats she recites at " and then not to mention travel to venue. I do not believe it is possible to put a price on zikr e HUSSAIN(as) and people should give as much as they can afford. Upon hearing the confirmation of the amount if hadiya however, i have to admit, i was completely heartbroken. There are not many ladies committees or familys that can afford so much at once and thus Khanum has been limited to where she recites. £500 is around 2weeks of full time work for someone on an average wage and that is a lot of money. Also where hadiya generally is approx £800 for an Alima to recite a full ashra, it mskes things really difficult to work and get everyone agreed on.

Again, i stress that this woman is amazing and must be heard in order to be appreciated.

Wasalaams

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In case anyone is wondering what he is talking about, here are some of those ahadith that he posted on his site, as well as elsewhere on this forum:

١٤١٨٥] ١ - Çáßáíäí¡ Úä Úáí Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã¡ Úä ÃÈíå¡ Úä ÇáäæÝáí¡ Úä ÇáÓßæäí¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏ Çááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÞÇá: ÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã): áÇ ÊäÒáæÇ ÇáäÓÇÁ ÈÇáÛÑÝ æáÇ ÊÚáãæåä ÇáßÊÇÈÉ æÚáãæåä ÇáãÛÒá æÓæÑÉ ÇáäæÑ (٣

ÇáÑæÇíÉ ãÚÊÈÑÉ ÇáÅÓäÇÏ

٣) ÇáßÇÝí: ٥ / ٥١٦ Í ١

[14185] 1- Al Kulaini, from Ali b. Ibrahim, from his father, from al Nofali,from al Sakooni, from abi Abdullah (as) who said: "Do not let the women come down the rooms and do not teach them to write, while teach them the spindle/spinning wheel and surah al Noor."

The narration is of reliable isnad (chains of narration).

(Kafi by Shaikh Kulaini (ra), Volume 5, Page 516, Hadith 1)

Man la yahdhuruhul Faqih by Shaikh Sadooq (381 AH), Third Volume

4535 - æÑæì ÅÓãÇÚíá Èä ÃÈí ÒíÇÏ Úä ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ Úä ÃÈíå ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã Úä ÂÈÇÆå Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã ÞÇá: (ÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÇáå: áÇ ÊäÒáæÇ äÓÇÁ‌ßã ÇáÛÑÝ æáÇ ÊÚáãæåä ÇáßÊÇÈÉ¡ æáÇ ÊÚáãæåä ÓæÑÉ íæÓÝ¡ æÚáãæåä ÇáãÛÒá æÓæÑÉ ÇáäæÑ

4535 - And it's narrated from Isma'il b. Abi Ziyad from Ja'far b. Muhammad (as) from his (as) father (as) from his forefathers (as) who said: Rasool Allah (pbuh) said: "Do not let your women come down the rooms and do not teach them to write, and do not teach them surah al Yusuf, while teach them the spindle/spinning wheel and surah al Noor."

Mustadrak al Wasail by Muhadith Noori, Volume 14, Page 259

Section 82- Dislike of women coming down the rooms, teaching them writing and Surah al Yusuf, and the desirability of teaching them spinning and Surah al Noor, and the obligation of enjoining good to one's family and forbidding them from the evil.

١٦٦٤٧) ١ ÇáÌÚÝÑíÇÊ: ÃÎÈÑäÇ ÚÈÏ Çááå¡ ÃÎÈÑäÇ ãÍãÏ¡ ÍÏËäí ãæÓì

ÞÇá: ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈí¡ Úä ÃÈíå¡ Úä ÌÏå ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä ÃÈíå¡ Úä ÌÏå

Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓíä¡ Úä ÃÈíå¡ Úä Úáí (Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã)¡ ÞÇá: " ÞÇá ÑÓæá

Çááå (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå): áÇ ÊäÒáæÇ ÇáäÓÇÁ ÇáÛÑÝ¡ æáÇ ÊÚáãæåä ÇáßÊÇÈÉ¡

æÚáãæåä ÇáÛÒá æÓæÑÉ ÇáäæÑ

16647) 1- (From the book) al J'afriat: Informed us Abdullah, informed us Muhammad, told me Musa who said: Told me my father, from his father, from his grandfather Ja'far b. Muhammad, from his father, from his grandfather Ali b. al Hussain, from his father, from Ali (as) who said: The Prophet (pbuh) said: "Do not let the women come down the rooms and do not teach them writing, while teach them spinning and Surah al Noor."

http://realtashayyu....good-thing.html

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Haydar,

Those hadiths are proven to be weak. Ask macisaac for the fatwa. I think he sent a question (about the above hadiths) to the marajas.

Above Hadith could be true for renegade and rebellious women with temperament like Aisha, Hafsa, the wife of Noah, the wife of Lut and so on who submit totally to the inspiration of iblees (l).

Above Hadith could not apply to Fatima Zahra (as), Khadija (as), Zainab (as), Maryam (as), Sara (as), Assia (as), Hajar (as), and other luminaries who had all their wills and whims totally submitted to Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì.

Edited by Waiting for HIM
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Haydar,

Those hadiths are proven to be weak. Ask macisaac for the fatwa. I think he sent a question (about the above hadiths) to the marajas.

1) I am simply informing people of what he was talking about.

2) Weak in sanad does not imply fabricated, so they could still be true.

3) These ahadith seem to be talking about recommendations, which don't need to be sahih in sanad to be used, even by usooli standards.

4) Regarding the two narrations:

[ 25355 ] 1 ـ محمد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن أبيه ، عن النوفلي ، عن السكوني ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : قال رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) : لا تنزلوا النساء الغرف ولا تعلموهن الكتابة وعلموهن المغزل وسورة النور .

blank.gif ورواه الصدوق بإسناده عن إسماعيل بن أبي زياد ، يعني السكوني ، مثله

[25355] 1: Muhammad b. Ya'qoob, from Ali b. Ibrahim, from his father, from al Nofali, from al Sakuni , from abi Abdullah who said: "Do not let the women come down the rooms and do not teach them to write, while teach them the spindle/spinning wheel and surah al Noor."

And Shaikh Sadooq (ra) narrated it by his isnad (chains of narration) from Ismail b. abi Ziyad, i.e. al Sakuni, similar to it.

حدثنا أحمد بن الحسن القطان قال: حدثنا الحسن بن علي العسكري قال: حدثنا أبو عبد الله محمد بن زكريا البصري قال: حدثنا جعفر بن محمد بن عمارة، عن أبيه عن جابر بن يزيد الجعفي قال: سمعت أبا جعفر محمد بن علي الباقر عليهما السلام يقول:

ولا يجوز لهن نزول الغرف، ولا تعلم الكتابة، ويستحب لهن تعلم المغزل، وسورة النور، ويكره لهن تعلم سورة يوسف

Ahmad ibn al-Hasan al-Qattan narrated to us. He said: al-Hasan ibn `Ali al-`Askari narrated to us. He said : Abu Abdullah Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Basri narrated to us. He said: Ja`far ibn Muhammad ibn `Ammara narrated to us from his father from Jabir ibn Yazid al-Ju`fi said: I heard Abu Ja`far Muhammad ibn `Ali al-Baqir (a) saying: and it is not allowed for them to come down from their rooms, and to learn to write, and it is recommended for them to learn the spindle, and surat an-Noor, and it is disliked for them to learn surat al-Yusuf.

Sayyid Rohani's was more detailed:

translation:

In regards to what is attached to the first riwayat, then amongst some of the `ulama are those who would hesitate in regards to it (i.e. as to the strength it's sanad) and others who would profess the sihhat of the sanad (i.e. say it is sahih).

As to the second riwayat, then it is da`if in sanad.

And upon the supposition of accepting the riwayat, then its meaning indicates upon a pedagogic guidance that applies in a way (?) of fearing for them.

Shaykh Safi Golpaygani:

His answer is a bit more involved, but to sum it up he's talking about how Islam wants to guard women from the mixing of the genders for her own good, her chastity and nobility. He's saying these riwaya are not tahrimi, so it's not saying it's actually haram for her to do these things, but that they are guidance for her protection. He mentions the corruption that occurs with the mixing of men and woman (I think he might be bringing up the example of them attending university together, but I'm not sure I'm reading that right).

Received an answer from the office of Ayatullah Al-Hakeem:

In the name of Allah, the most Gracious, the most Merciful and Praise to Him

What this particular text mean and other texts is that the Muslim woman refrain from all what makes her relation with the men or what results from sexual desire to guard her sanctity but this does not erase her social role in an absolute way. Some surrounding circumstances could make her leave and deal with men or face them as what happens to Fatima Alzahra (peace be upon her) when she left her house and asked her right and imam Ali's right in the position of Imamah. Furthermore, she defended the life of the imam. But when she left her house because of the mentioned surrounding circumstances, she was guarding her hijab and her full sanctity. In some of the narrations, she delivered a speech in the mosque of the prophet and there was a curtain between her and men.

May Allah guide you to please Him.

http://www.shiachat....ws/page__st__25

5) Here is a sahih hadith:

فاحبسوا نساءكم، وان الرجل خلق من الارض، وانما همته في الارض.

.........................Imam Sadiq(as) said "Verily the woman has been created from man, and she's bent/interested/focused in nothing but the man. So lock up your women. The man has been created from land and he's bent/interested/focused in nothing but in land."

I just wanted to comment on the authenticity of this hadeeth. This hadeeth is SaHeeH, there is one issue with the naskh of the e-book. It isn't غياث بن أبي ابراهيم , but it is غياث بن ابراهيم (drop the أبي). If you look to the tabaqa of Ghiyaath, you will see that it is actually him. And my personal copy of `ilal al-sharaa'i` doesn't have this mistake.

Also, if you look to Hoor Al-`Aamilee's Wasaa'il Al-Shee`ah, he has narrated this hadeeth and he doesn't have this mistake.

وَ فِي الْعِلَلِ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنْ سَعْدٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ يَحْيَى عَنْ غِيَاثِ بْنِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ

There is a whole chapter in Wasaa'il Al-Shee`ah that discusses this very thing.

24 بَابُ اسْتِحْبَابِ حَبْسِ الْمَرْأَةِ فِي بَيْتِهَا أَوْ بَيْتِ زَوْجِهَا فَلَا تَخْرُجْ لِغَيْرِ حَاجَةٍ وَ لَا يَدْخُلْ عَلَيْهَا أَحَدٌ مِنَ الرِّجَالِ

“Chapter on the recommendation of locking the women (i.e. the wife) in her house or the house of her husband, and not letting her leave without a necessity, and not letting anyone from the men enter upon her”

Source:

  • Al-`Aamilee, Wasaa'il Al-Shee`ah, vol. 20, pg. 64, ch. 24

http://www.shiachat....ost__p__2162078

Above Hadith could not apply to Fatima Zahra (as), Khadija (as), Zainab (as), Maryam (as), Sara (as), Assia (as), Hajar (as), and other luminaries who had all their wills and whims totally submitted to Allah سبحانه وتعالى.

I think they are probably the ones who would be most likely to follow those ahadith. I doubt they made a habit of leaving their house for no reason.

Edited by Haydar Husayn
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Well, I am not sure what the OP meant by expensive, as in, expensive for what? Maybe she is only expensive for house-calls or not expensive at all for zikre-Hussain and only expensive for other lectures. I say this because the only thing she asked for here in NY was a plane ticket, the masjid also only gave(she did not ask) her 200$ and she was happy and gave her word to return next year. It is possible she is expensive in Pakistan, I wouldn't know. I am speaking from my own experience.

Hasan Sajjad

President

Here she charges $500 per hour.

and not for "house calls" but for majalis in proper established imambargahs

and not for "other lectures" but for zikr Hussain

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I recently attended her majalis. There were not a lot of women so I had the chance to observe her from close, and I made eye contact with her :). She is fascinating, mesmerizing and just amazing. I am surprised how people critisize her, her eloquence and her personality are a miracle. I think she looks a lot more beautiful in person compared to her pictures and videos. I always thought that she is probably one of 313 people in Imam Mehdi (A.S.)'s army but now I think her status is much higher. Pakistani people who can see her regularly, are really lucky and I feel so proud of being a Pakistani because she is. She doesn't look Pakistani, she looks arabic and she speaks all languages so fluently, it's hard to tell. I think people should be careful when saying things about her. I have noticed she doesn't show her right arm and she always keeps her hand at her side like she has pain there :cry: . I will watch all her videos that are available online. She is such a great speaker, you can listen to her for hours.

Edited by Mokhtar2012
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