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In the Name of God بسم الله

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The Qu'ran encourages research, reading and learning which suggest the proving/disproving of hypotheses. To suggest that faith does not provide adequate insight and blindly follows hunches is grossly innacurate.

In actual fact most of the "modern science" theories can be linked to the Qu'ran. Immaculate conception being one of them.

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Guest Dead curious

BRR

Salam,

^ I agree. Islam doesn't ignore contradicting evidence. It goes on and explains why the contradicting evidence is not correct (because Islam is flawless).

Edited by Dead curious
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No other revealed book praises and encourages science and knowledge as does the Qur’an and it is for this reason that the Qur’an names the age of the desert Arabs, together with their pagan cultures, before Islam as the “age of ignorance.” In over a hundred verses reference is made to science and knowledge in a variety of ways; and many of these verses praise the value of scientific knowledge. In XCVI:5 God indicates the favour he has done man by bringing him out of his state of ignorance. “He teaches man what he did not know.“

Likewise, we read in LVIII:11, “God will exalt those who believe among you and those who have knowledge to high ranks,” and in XXXIX:9 God says, “Are those who know equal to those who do not” Besides the many verses in the Qur’an concerning knowledge, there are also countless traditions of the Prophet and the Imams on this subject which rank second only in importance to the Qur’an.

The Sciences which the Qur’an Invites Men to Study

In verses too numerous to mention, the Qur’an invites one to reflect upon the signs Of creation: the heavens, the shining stars and their astonishing celestial movements, and the cosmic order which rules over them all. Similarly, the Qur’an urges one to reflect upon the creation of the earth, the seas, the mountains, the desert, and the wonders contained below the surface of the earth, the difference between night and day and the changing cycle of seasons. It urges mankind to meditate on the extraordinary creation of the plants and the order and symmetry governing their growth, as well as the multiplicity of the animal kingdom.

The Qur’an invites one to witness the interdependence of beings and how all live in harmony with nature. It calls upon man also, to ponder on his own make-up, on the secrets of creation which are hidden within him, on his soul, on the depth of his perception, and on his relationship with the world of the spirit.

The Qur’an commands man to travel in the world in order to witness other cultures and to investigate the social orders, history and philosophies of past people. Thus it calls man to a study of the natural sciences, mathematics, philosophy, the arts and all sciences available to man, and to study them for the benefit of man and the well-being of society.

The Qur’an recommends the study of these sciences on the condition that it leads to truth and reality, that it produces a correct view of the world based on an understanding of God.

Knowledge, which merely keeps a man occupied and prevents him from knowing the reality of his own existence, is equated with ignorance. God says in XXX:7, “They know only some appearance of the life of one world and are heedless of the Hereafter” and in chapter XLV:23, “Have you seen him who makes his Desire his goal, and God sends him astray purposely and seals up his Heart and sets a covering on his Heart. Then who will lead him after God (has condemned him).“

The Qur’an not only stimulates the desire for study but is itself a complete system of education of divine knowledge; it provides, too, a model for human behaviour and thought. This complete way of life is called Islam, the way of submission.

The Sciences Particular to the Study of the Qur’an

There are many sciences devoted to the study of the Qur’an itself. The development of such sciences dates from the first day of Qur’anic revelation; over a period of time they were unified and perfected. Today countless books are available on these sciences, fruit of the labour of different researchers over the centuries.

Some of these sciences investigate the language and vocabulary of the Qur’an, and some the meanings. Those concerned with language are the sciences of correct Qur’anic pronunciation and reading (tajwad and qira’ah). They explain the simple changes which certain letters undergo when occurring in conjunction with others, the substitution of letters and the places prescribed for breath-pausing, and other similar matters. They also study the different ways the Qur’an has been written down and the several generally accepted ways of recitation, together with the three lesser known ways and the rarer modes of recitation.

Other works enumerate the number of chapters and their verses, while others relate these numbers to the whole Qur’an.

They discuss the tradition of Qur’anic calligraphy and how it differs from the normal Arabic script. They research, too, into the meanings of the Qur’an and the general division of subject matter, such as the place and circumstance of revelation, the interpretation of certain verses, the outward and inner meanings, the muhkam (clear) or the mutashabih (ambiguous), and the abrogating and the abrogated verses.

Others study the verses containing the laws (which, in fact, are part of what is known as Islamic fiqh or jurisprudence). Others specialize in the commentary of the meanings (already seen in a previous section of the book). Specialists in each of the different sciences have published numerous works on each subject.

The Sciences which Developed because of the Qur’an

The sciences of Islam came into being at the beginning of the Prophet’s mission and the revelation of the Qur’an, including laws governing the behaviour and transactions of Muslims. Study of these sciences developed in the first century after the Hijrah although initially, not in any formal way. Since the Caliphs had prohibited the writing down of the tradition, they were handed down by word of mouth by the companions and their followers.

A small number of Scholars wrote on jurisprudence and on the science of the traditions at the beginning of the second century when the prohibition was lifted, allowing Scholars to record the traditions.

It was at this point that a number of disciplines came into being including the Science of Traditions and the Science of establishing the authority and sincerity of those men who transmitted it; the Science of analysis of the text of the traditions; the Science of the foundations of jurisprudence and jurisprudence itself; the Science of belief in the judgement after death and the after-life. Even philosophy, which entered the Islamic arena via the Greek, and remained there for some time in its original Greek, took on the colour and beliefs of the people after a time.

Changes in the subject matter and the structure of disciplines took place such that today, amongst Muslims, all subject matter concerning divine gnosis is supported by proofs and reasons taken from the Qur’an and the traditions.

All these subjects were also studied as an integral part of the Arabic language: mastery of the science of verb declensions grammar, meanings of words, commentary and explanation, the art of metaphors and good style, and the philosophy and science of derived meanings allowed greater precision and clarity in the study of the Islamic Sciences as a whole.

Indeed what stimulated scholars to record and arrange coherently the laws of the Arabic language was the sense that they were serving God; love of Him drew them to a clarity and sweetness of style which in turn generated the Science of correct speech and composition.

It is thus related that Ibn ‘Abbas, who was one of the commentators amongst the companions, explained the mean- ings of verses by taking examples of the vocabulary in question from Arabic poetry. He advised people to collect and learn Arabic poetry saying, Poetry is the court of the Arabs (meaning the place where the finest language may be heard).

The famous Shi’ite scholar Khahl ibn Ahmad al-Farahidi wrote the book al-’Ayn on the subject of language and also described the science of poetic rhyme.

Many others also wrote on the same subjects. The subject of history was initially derived in Islam from stories of the lives of prophets, in particular that of the Prophet Muhammad, and the description of the course of past nations. To this basic material was added an account of the events during the period immediately following the appearance of Islam. All this was developed into a history of the world in the writings of such men as al-Tabari, al-Mas’udi, al-Ya’qubi and al-Waqidi.

The original reason the Muslims translated and transmitted the natural Sciences and mathematics from other cultures and languages into Arabic was the cultural stimulation given to them by the Qur’an. Many different Sciences were translated from Greek, Syriac and Sanskrit into Arabic.

Access to these sciences was at first available only to the Caliph (who was at that time leader of only Arab Muslims). Gradually they were made available to all Muslims and improved upon as research methods, structuring, classification and ordering of the subjects developed.

One of the main reasons the civilization of Islam, which formed after the death of the Prophet, came to include a large part of the inhabited world (and which today numbers over six hundred million inhabitants), was the Qur’an. We as Shi’ahs, however, deny that the caliphs and the kings who followed them had legitimate claim to the guardianship and execution of the law even though they expanded Islamic civilization, and do not fully agree with the way they explained the realities of Islam.

Indeed the light of wisdom which illuminated the world was from the light of the miracle of the Qur’an. The apppearance and diffusion of the revelation caused a change in the direction of history and generated a chain of important events resulting in the progress and development of the culture of man.

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In actual fact most of the "modern science" theories can be linked to the Qu'ran. Immaculate conception being one of them.

Immaculate conception? The state of being born without sin supposedly characteristic of Mary, the mother of Jesus?

I don't think there is any theory of modern science that relates to the conception of the mother of Jesus?

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^ Parthenogenesis?

Wikipedia

News Article

News Article

News Article

I guess this is going a little off from the original topic.

And I don't know if this can be tied in with the "modern science" theories of the Quran...

Parthenogenesis would be "virgin birth."

Virgin Birth has nothing to do with Immaculate Conception.

The former is ascribed to the conception of Jesus. The latter is ascribed to the conception of his mother.

They are two completely different "events."

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  • 4 months later...
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The following is an article I did for my Philosophy class.

Faith and Science

There are fools around the world whom think they can prove god’s existence with science. I got two words for them, “Dream On”. God is a being that lives outside of our space and time all together. And since we do not know how he influence our time and space, we cannot observe him through science. So proving god in science is almost close to impossible. This view is influence by science and religion of Islam. Interestingly Islam does not talk about the physical characteristics of god at all. It takes the view that if every human on earth imagine god, they will not be even close to what god is.

So what is the relationship between faith and science? Well faith and science are not related to one another at all. I was being careful to not use the word “opposite”. There reason is opposite means you have a choice between the two, so you cannot have both at the same time.

There are scientists who do believe that science is opposite to faith, and they cannot coexist. One such scientist is Richard Dawkins, who holds the Charles Simonyi Chair for the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University and is an outspoken scientist in the field of evolution. Even though I do respect this man very much for his contribution to the world of science, I do not agree with his extreme view of faith and science. OK!!! Let’s examine what faith is.

Wikipedia describe faith as “a belief, trust, or confidence, not based merely on logic, reason, or empirical data, but based fundamentally on volition often associated with a transpersonal relationship with God, a higher power, a person, elements of nature, and/or a perception of the human race as a whole.” I would use the Islamic understanding of faith since it is what I am more familiar with. Osul e Din (pillars of religion) is what Shia Muslims have to have personal faith in, without copying others (you cannot copy faith so it has to be personal). There are five doctrines;

1. Tawhid (Oneness): The Oneness of God,

2. Justice of god,

3. Prophet hood,

4. Leadership,

5. The day of judgement.

Every Shia Muslim needs to have faith in these 5 doctrines. Otherwise he/she is not a Shia Muslim. What makes this faith interesting is the justification for the faith. This faith need to have a strong justification based on logic and reason but not so much on empirical data. The stronger the justification is, the greater the faith is. In fact a faith without reason is considered blind faith and a sin. I do not blame Wikipedia for this description of faith (they also have a section about faith in Islam which is influenced by Sunni Islam). Wikipedia’s explanation is influenced by western world and religious views. But it overlooks some other explanations of faith (e.g. Shia view).

Since a lot of religions including some Muslims embrace faith without reason and logic, we cannot change the description of faith. So we need to find a phrase which is compatible with the faith explained is Shia Islam. Interestingly, I saw my answer in one of Plato’s works. The phrase I am referring to is knowledge. Simply Plato believed that in order for there to be knowledge at least three criteria must be fulfilled; that in order to count as knowledge, a statement must be justified, true, and believed. Well it is not the best description since it lacks one criterion. Shia faith fulfills two criteria (believed and justified) but it lacks one criterion (true). Description of knowledge does fit Shia doctrine of faith, since it fulfills the two criteria and you can argue about the third criterion by saying “since the belief is justified by reason and logic, it must be true”.

If science and empirical data do not support the existence of God, does that mean there is no God and faith is baseless? Not necessary! Science is not the only reason and logic there is which can be accepted by everyone, for example philosophy is not considered as a science but it is still uses logic and reason which might not necessary be based on science. What make this interesting is that science is also considered to be knowledge since it does fulfil the three criteria. Therefore we have faith and science both considered to be knowledge and they do not necessary have anything to do with one another. So we can see that science has no relationship with faith. Therefore they can co-exist together.

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^ Actually, Faith means to believe something without evidence.

If you had evidence, you wouldn't believe something, you'd simply know something. You would have replaced "faith" with "reason".

This is a problem young earth creationists have. The Bible is directly contradictory to current evidence. We can see the Bible is wrong.

So to keep one's faith one has to throw science out the window, and vice versa.

Islam may not have this problem to the same degree, but that does not mean it doesn't exist.

For one, the need for a creator has little scientific basis.

The existence of Jinn have zero scientific basis.

And it is hard to say what actually happened at the Battle of Karbala.

And so on.

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And it is hard to say what actually happened at the Battle of Karbala.

This is not an attack, dont take it as such, but is it really? Does that mean the non muslim historians who wrote about it took it from muslim sources and ahadith or what?

(i dont fully understand it)

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^ Actually, Faith means to believe something without evidence.

If you had evidence, you wouldn't believe something, you'd simply know something. You would have replaced "faith" with "reason".

This is a problem young earth creationists have. The Bible is directly contradictory to current evidence. We can see the Bible is wrong.

So to keep one's faith one has to throw science out the window, and vice versa.

Islam may not have this problem to the same degree, but that does not mean it doesn't exist.

For one, the need for a creator has little scientific basis.

The existence of Jinn have zero scientific basis.

And it is hard to say what actually happened at the Battle of Karbala.

And so on.

Imam Jafar al-Sadigh (as) was the first man whom divided philosophy and science. Imam Said:

"Science and philosophy are two different subjects. Science gives us definite and exact results even if they are small and insignificant. But philosophy serves no practical purpose and gives no useful results. However, it is beyond the scope of science to discover the ultimate truth; but it is within the domain of philosophy to do that."

http://www.ahl-e-bayt.20m.com/articles/Ima...%20sciences.htm

how can you understand an enfinit entity. Science will never find the answer since its result lies on measurements. Science is limited because it works with limited entities. But philosophy is capable of proving God since it is unlimited. You can ask a philosophy teacher and he will tell you the say. I study philosophy in Uni.

I beileve there is absolutely no way to prove Gods existence through science. But you can use science to a small degree for arguments though. But science is not a defenitive answer. Well any physicist would tell you that there is a good evident to show that there is some kind of higher being or beings.

Mate you should read the following

http://www.humshia.com/Mufaddhal-Hadith%20...%20Mufaddal.htm

http://www.ahl-e-bayt.20m.com/articles/Ima...%20sciences.htm

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This is not an attack, dont take it as such, but is it really? Does that mean the non muslim historians who wrote about it took it from muslim sources and ahadith or what?

(i dont fully understand it)

There are many threads about it here.

I don't think we actually know what happened. I believe many accounts could have been embellished a bit.

Imam Jafar al-Sadigh (as) was the first man whom divided philosophy and science. Imam Said:

"Science and philosophy are two different subjects. Science gives us definite and exact results even if they are small and insignificant. But philosophy serves no practical purpose and gives no useful results. However, it is beyond the scope of science to discover the ultimate truth; but it is within the domain of philosophy to do that."

http://www.ahl-e-bayt.20m.com/articles/Ima...%20sciences.htm

how can you understand an enfinit entity. Science will never find the answer since its result lies on measurements. Science is limited because it works with limited entities. But philosophy is capable of proving God since it is unlimited. You can ask a philosophy teacher and he will tell you the say. I study philosophy in Uni.

I beileve there is absolutely no way to prove Gods existence through science. But you can use science to a small degree for arguments though. But science is not a defenitive answer. Well any physicist would tell you that there is a good evident to show that there is some kind of higher being or beings.

Mate you should read the following

http://www.humshia.com/Mufaddhal-Hadith%20...%20Mufaddal.htm

http://www.ahl-e-bayt.20m.com/articles/Ima...%20sciences.htm

Then what is the point of believing?

There is many things we could believe in, unprovably.

Easter bunny, tooth fairy, Santa Claus. All unprovable. What is the great benefit of believing?

There is none. Sure, you could say it makes you feel better, as it would make me feel better to believe I have just won the lottery.

However, when reality sinks in, you just have farther to fall.

That's the way I see it.

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I don't think we actually know what happened. I believe many accounts could have been embellished a bit.

Then what is the point of believing?

There is many things we could believe in, unprovably.

Easter bunny, tooth fairy, Santa Claus. All unprovable. What is the great benefit of believing?

There is none. Sure, you could say it makes you feel better, as it would make me feel better to believe I have just won the lottery.

However, when reality sinks in, you just have farther to fall.

That's the way I see it.

First every decent historians would agree on what happen in Kerbala and how it happens. So lets leave history upto historians since they know more how to verify narations and stories.

Why dont we belienve in tooth fairy since If we put our tooth under the pillow, it will not get stollen. Such thing can be proven or disproven through theology and history to find out how such belief formed.

Now lets talk about faith. In english language the phrase "to have faith" does not include having reason and logic for that. But the in arabic we use the word "Imaan". Some dictionaries translate this into "faith" but this is wrong. Imaan literaly means "to learn". To learn means to observe reasons and logics. So through these come Imaan in God. I have to say that Sunnies do not believe in this but their reasons is not adequate enough, at least for me. In the article I was defending faith in shia theology. Since through Quran, Hadith and narations there is a very strong case for logic to belef in God.

You should not compare belief in god with belief of tooth fairy. Belief in God will give a man a completely different world view. I cannot go through this since it is a long Topic. If you want to learn about world view. you should read the works of Dr Ali Shariati.

Edited by mshoari
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There are many threads about it here...I don't think we actually know what happened. I believe many accounts could have been embellished a bit...

I would agree that some mythical embellishments on the original events were made and quite early on to be sure, however the real foundations of the issue are historically undeniable. A tyrant murdered a descendant of Muhammad; I am not aware of a single Western historian who would deny as much. In fact the extreme opposite is true, for example; Margaret Cormack accepts the traditional recounts without discussion("Sacrificing the Self: Perspectives on Martyrdom and Religion", Oxford University Press, 2001---and that is of course, barring legendary interpolations about the horse of the Imam, details on the amount and severity of wounds suffered et al), Bruce Lincoln likewise("Discourse and the Construction of Society: Comparative Studies of Myth, Ritual, and Classification", Oxford University Press, 1989), the same can be said of Abdulaziz Abdulhussein Sachedina("The Just Ruler in Shi'ite Islam: the Comprehensive Authority of the Jurist in Imamite Jurisprudence", Oxford University Press, 1998), Joyce Wiley and even Ibn Warraq if my memory serves correct. To say that we don't know what happened at Karbala is, to simply utter pure nonsense and in a thread of this sort, a red herring as well.

Meilleurs Voeux

Edited by Servidor
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The Battle of Karbala:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...4923975&hl=

Read.

You should not compare belief in god with belief of tooth fairy. Belief in God will give a man a completely different world view. I cannot go through this since it is a long Topic. If you want to learn about world view. you should read the works of Dr Ali Shariati.

Okay, how's this?

I believe the universe was created by the tooth fairy. That is why we have teeth. The tooth fairy put us here so we could repent, and brush our teeth, or either be sent to dentistry hell, which looks like an ordinary dentist's office. Except that you may not leave it.

Compare that to Christianity, the belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and drink his blood and telepathically accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a woman (created from a rib) was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

Then Islam, which is a similar story, just a different magical fairy.

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Okay, how's this?

I believe the universe was created by the tooth fairy. That is why we have teeth. The tooth fairy put us here so we could repent, and brush our teeth, or either be sent to dentistry hell, which looks like an ordinary dentist's office. Except that you may not leave it.

Compare that to Christianity

You are over simplifying one argument. There is no way to compare it. God governs everything that there is and there ever was. I cannot compare him with tooth fairy. Believing in tooth fairy gives me a new view of teeth (not a world view). But belief in God gives me a new world view which effects my every action and thought. But a new view of teeth or teeth view only effect what i do with my fallen teeth.

I believe the universe was created by the tooth fairy. That is why we have teeth. The tooth fairy put us here so we could repent, and brush our teeth, or either be sent to dentistry hell, which looks like an ordinary dentist's office. Except that you may not leave it.

Compare that to Christianity, the belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and drink his blood and telepathically accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a woman (created from a rib) was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

Then Islam, which is a similar story, just a different magical fairy.

You know what is really interesting that I have more of bible than I have read of Quran. I went through a phase that I doubt my own religion. I read all these stories. But when I thought about them they did not make sense to me.

The doctrine of trinity creates more problems than it solves. It solves the polytheist problem of Christianity but it is against the simplest common sense. I rejected the doctrine and not only that I laughed at it always say to myself how can a man with brain accept such a jibrish claim. The worst is that when you corner the theologians in an argument about this topic they just say "well it is God and he is all powerful so this doctrine also have to be true? It is just we do not understand it." These answers are unacceptable in every sense of intellectuality. I tell you myself never ever listen to such non sense.

Now lets get to the symbolism and acceptance of a certain master. Well one (I am not saying you) cannot argue against symbolic practice by saying it is stupid, weird or silly. I have seen some Atheist argue in such a manner and to me this is extremely unintellectual. Such people fail to see the importance of symbolic rhetoric to humanity itself. Such rhetorics or practices has a longer effect on human mind than other forms of communication. I give a example. Hafiz's (Persian poet) poetry were extremely symbolic and mystic. To such extent that I remember my Persian teachers refused to give us the interpretation of his works and told us that you should read them yourselves and contemplate on them since every man (human) will understand a different thing from them. Wheeler M. Thackston writes this about Hafiz in the book 'A Millenium of Classical Persian Poetry';

"If Sa'di's (persian poet) Gulistan (one of his most important works) has been read by more people, and Mawlavi's (One of the greatest persian Poet) Masnavi (his work) has been called the Koran in Persian, no book has been so reverenced, no poet so celebrated, and no verse so cherished as Hafiz's ghazals (a form of poetry). Auguries from his divan (his work) have decided the fates of individuals and empires, rebels and heretics as well as the pious have died with lines by Hafiz on their lips, and religious and philosophic arguments have been won by apt quotation of a hemestich." As you can see symbolic practices and rhetoric can be extremely powerful and religion are based on such things because what they seek in reminding individuals at all times. Ypu should read the lecture by Dr Ali Shariati called "Man and Islam" or "Islam and Man", well i don't remember.

Now the acceptance of a master. One time prophet (pbuh) asked to the the people "don't I have more right on you than you have on yourselves?" and the people said "Yes, Oh Messenger of Allah (pbuh) . "When I thought about it, I came to the conclusion that this is absolutely true. My prophet (pbuh) is my master. He has more right on my life than I have on my own. This is best understood with an example. A mother has more right on her 3 year old baby then that baby has on itself. Why? simply because that the mother has lived a longer time and have a lot of experiences (knowledge) about life. The mother also wants the best for their children. Now my prophet (pbuh) also fulfill these criteria. He is by far more knowledgeable (he has prophetic knowledge) than me and he wants the best for me. One might argue by saying we might out grow our parent s when we get old and therefore our parents no longer have right over us. But such a case does not include Prophets since they received knowledge that was beyond our perception in the past and still is to some extent.

I get it that you might be a Christian. Now lets get to the doctrine of original sin. I hate it and it is stupid and irrational and [Edited Out]. There are countless argument against this doctrine. Our story of adam and Eve are similar to Christianity. In Islam every human is responsible for his own actions and his own only. I do not pay for something my mother did. As I said before you should read the lecture called "Man and Islam" by Dr Ali Shariati.

Edited by mshoari
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