Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Question For Sunnis

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member
To sunnis-

Is it logical that the Prophet (pbuh) would tell everyone else something concerning HIS OWN DAUGHTER (aka, Fadak), and not HIS OWN DAUGHTER? Does this even make the least bit of sense?

Wasalaam

^ You took the words out of my mouth.

Does it make sense Omar, that the hadith is about the daughter and what he willleave her, but Abu Bakar heard it but she didn't.

Please also answer if Abu Bakar ask her to bring witnessess or not? Please do answer this question.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 72
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Advanced Member

6th lecture here http://www.sijny.org/?mpage=Muharram%20142...o%20and%20Video

and bibi fatima's (as) speech

Fatima (A) felt grieved by Abu Bakr's actions, and was so displeased with him that when she knew of his attempt to seize Fadak, she accompanied a group of women to the mosque. There she sat down and delivered the following speech:

‘Praise be to Allah for that which He bestowed (upon us); And thanks be to Him for all that which He inspired; and commended in His Name for that which He Provided: Form prevalent favors which He created, And abundant benefactions which He offered and perfect grants which He presented; (such benefactions) that their number is much too plentiful to compute; Bounties too vast to measure; Their limit was too distant to realize; He recommended to them (His creatures) to gain more (of His benefaction) by being grateful for their continuity; He ordained Himself praiseworthy by giving generously to His creatures; I bear witness that there is no God but Allah Who is One without partner, a statement which sincere devotion is made to be its interpretation; hearts guarantee its con­tinuation, and illuminated in the minds is its sensibility. He Who can not be perceived with vision; neither be described with tongues; nor can imagination surround His state.

He originated things but not from anything that existed be­fore them, and created them with­out examples to follow. Rather, He created them with His might and dispersed them according to His will; not for a need did He create them; nor for a benefit (for Him) did He shape them, But to establish His wisdom, Bring attention to His obedi­ence, manifest His might, lead His creatures to humbly vene­rate Him, and to exalt His decrees. He then made the reward for His obedience, and punishment for his dis­obedience, so as to protect His creatures from His Wrath and amass them into His Paradise.

I too bear witness that my Father, Muhammad, is His Slave and Messenger, Whom He chose prior to sending him, named him before sending him; when creatures were still concealed in that which was transcendental, guarded from that which was appalling, and associated with the termination and nonexistence. For Allah the Exalted knew that which was to follow, comprehended that which will come to pass, And realized the place of every event. Allah has sent him (Muhammad) as perfection for His commands, a resolution to accomplish His rule, and an implementation of the decrees of His Mercy. So he found the nations to vary in their faiths; Obsessed by their fires, Worshipping their idols, And denying Allah despite their knowledge of Him. Therefore, Allah illuminated their darkness with my Father, Muhammad, uncovered obscurity from their hearts, and cleared the clouds from their insights. He revealed guidance among the people; So he delivered them from being led astray, led them away from misguidance, guided them to the proper religion, and called them to the straight path.

Allah then chose to recall him back in mercy, love and pre­ference. So, Muhammad is in comfort from the burden of this world, he is surrounded with devoted angels, the satisfaction of the Merciful Lord, and the nearness of the powerful King.

So may the praise of Allah be upon my Father, His Prophet, Trusted one, the chosen one

from among His creatures, and His sincere friend, and may peace and blessings of

Allah be upon him.’

Fatima (A) then turned to the crowd and said:

‘Surely you are Allah's slaves at His command Prohibition; You are the bearers of His religion and revelation; You are Allah's trusted ones with yourselves; and His messengers to the nations. Amongst you does He have righteous authority; A covenant He brought unto you, and an heir He left to guard you; That is The eloquent book of Allah; The truthful Quran; The brilliant light; The shining beam; Its insights are indisputable; Its secrets are revealed; Its indications are manifest; and its followers are blessed by it. (The Quran) leads its adherents to goodwill; and Hearing it leads to salvation; with it are the bright divine authorities achieved, His manifest determination acquired, His prohibited decrees avoided; His manifest evidence recognized; His satisfying proofs made apparent, His permissions granted, and His laws written.

So Allah made belief to be purification for you from poly­theism.

He made Prayer, An exaltation for you from conceit.

Alms ?A purification for the soul and a (cause of) growth in subsistence.

Fasting an implantation of devotion.

Pilgrimage ?A construction of religion.

Justice ?A harmony of the hearts;

obeying us (Ahlul?Bayt)­Management of the nation.

Our leadership (Ahlul?Bayt), Safeguard from disunity.

Jihad (struggle)­ a strengthening of Islam.

Patience ?A helping course for deserving (divine) reward.

Ordering goodness (Amr Bil Maruf)­ Public welfare.

Kindness to the parents­ A safeguard from wrath.

Maintaining close relations with one's kin ?A cause for a longer life and multiplying the number of descend­ants.

Retaliation (Qesas)?For sparing blood (souls).

Fulfillment of vows?subjecting oneself to mercy.

Completion of weights and measures ?A cause for preventing the neglect of others' rights. Forbiddance of drinking wines an exaltation from atrocity.

Avoiding slander ?A veil from curse.

Abandoning theft?a reason for deserving chastity.

Allah has also prohibited polytheism so that one can devote himself to His Lordship.

Therefore; Fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam;

Obey Allah in that which He has commanded you to do and that which He has forbidden, for surely those truly fear among His servants, who have knowledge.’

Lady Fatima Zahra (A) then added:

‘O People! Be informed that I am Fatima, and my father is Muhammad I say that repeatedly and initiate it continually; I say not what I say mistakenly, nor do I do what I do aimlessly.

Now hath come unto you an Apostle from amongst yourselves; It grieves him that you should perish; Ardently anxious is he over you; To the believers he is most kind and merciful. Thus, if you identify and recog­nize him, you shall realize that he is my father and not the father of any of your women; the brother of my cousin (Ali (A)) rather than any of your men. What an excellent identity he was, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his descendants Thus, he propagated the Message, by coming out openly with the warning, and while inclined away from the path of the polytheists, (whom he) struck their strength and seized their throats, while he invited (all) to the way of his Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching He destroyed idols, and defeated heroes, until their group fled and turned their backs. So night revealed its dawn; righteousness uncovered its genuineness; the voice of the religious authority spoke out loud; the evil discords were silenced; The crown of hypocrisy was diminished; the tightening of infidelity and desertion were untied,

So you spoke the statement of devotion amongst a band of starved ones; and you were

on the edge of a hole of fire;(you were) the drink of the thirsty one; the opportunity of the desiring one; the fire brand of him who passes in haste; the step for feet; you used to drink from the water gathered on roads; eat jerked meat. (Lady Fatima (A) was stating their lowly situation before Islam) You were despised outcasts always in fear of abduction from those around you. Yet, Allah rescued you through my father, Muhammad :after much ado, and after he was confronted by mighty men, the Arab beasts, and the demons of the people of the Boob Who, whenever they ignited the fire of war, Allah extinguished it; and whenever the thorn of the devil appeared, or a mouth of the polytheists opened wide in defiance, he would strike its discords with his brother (Ali, (A)), who comes not back until he treads its wing with the sole of his feet, and extinguishes its flames with his sword. (Ali is) diligent in Allah's affair, near to the Messenger of Allah, A master among Allah's worshippers, setting to work briskly, sincere in his advice, earnest and exerting himself (in service to Islam); While you were calm, gay, and feeling safe in your comfort­able lives, waiting for us to meet disasters, awaiting the spread of news, you fell back during every battle, and took to your heels at times of fighting. Yet, When Allah chose His Prophet from the dwell of His prophets, and the abode of His sincere (servants); The thorns of hypocrisy appeared on you, the garment of faith became worn out, The misguided ignorant(s) spoke out, the sluggish ignorant came to the front and brayed. The he camel of the vain wiggled his tail in your courtyards and the your courtyards and the Devil stuck his head from its place of hiding and called upon you, he found you respon­sive to his invitation, and observing his deceits.

He then aroused you and found you quick (to answer him), and invited you to wrath, therefore; you branded other than your camels and proceeded to other than your drinking places. Then while the era of the Prophet was still near, the gash was still wide, the scar had not yet healed, and the Messenger was not yet buried. A (quick) undertaking as you claimed, aimed at preventing discord (trial), Surely, they have fallen into trial already! And indeed Hell surrounds the unbelievers. How preposterous! What an idea!

What a falsehood! For Allah’s Book is still amongst you, its affairs are apparent; its rules are manifest; its signs are dazzling; its restrictions are visible, and its commands are evident. Yet, indeed you have casted it behind your backs! What! Do you detest it? Or according to something else you wish to rule? Evil would be the exchange for the wrongdoers! And if anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), it never will it be accepted from him; And in the hereafter, he will be in the ranks of those who have lost. Surely you have not waited until its stampede seized, and it became obedient. You then started arousing its flames, instigating its coal, complying with the call of the misled devil, quenching the light of the manifest reli­gion, and extinguished the light of the sincere Prophet. You concealed sips on froth and proceeded towards his (the Prophet) kin and children in swamps and forests (meaning you plot against them in deceitful ways), but we are patient with you as if we are being notched with knives and stung by spearheads in our abdomens, Yet?now you claim that there is not inheritance for us! What! "Do they then seek after a judgment of (the Days of) ignorance? But How, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah? Don't you know? Yes, indeed it is obvious to you that I am his daughter.

O Muslims! Will my inheritance be usurped? O son of Abu Quhafa! Where is it in the Book of Allah that you inherit your father and I do not inherit mine? Surely you have come up with an unprecedented thing. Do you intentionally abandon the Book of Allah and cast it behind your back? Do you not read where it says: And Sulaiman inherited Dawood'?

And when it narrates the story of Zakariya and says: `So give me an heir as from thyself (One that) will inherit me, and inherit the posterity of Yaqoob' And: `But kindred by hood have prior rights against each other in the Book of Allah'

And: Allah (thus) directs you as regards your children's (inheritance) to the male, a portion equal to that of two females' And, If he leaves any goods, that he make a bequest to parents and next of kin, according to reasonable usage; this is due from the pious ones.' You claim that I have no share! And that I do not inherit my father! What! Did Allah reveal a (Quranic) verse regarding you, from which He excluded my father? Or do you say: `These (Fatima and her father) are the people of two faiths, they do not inherit each other?!’ Are we not, me and my father, a people adhering to one faith? Or is it that you have more knowledge about the specifi­cations and generalizations of the Quran than my father and my cousin (Imam Ali)? So, here you are! Take it! (Ready with) its nose rope and saddled! But if shall encounter you on the Day of Gathering; (thus) what a wonder­ful judge is Allah, a claimant is Muhammad, and a day is the Day of Rising. At the time of the Hour shall the wrongdoers lose; and it shall not benefit you to regret (your actions) then! For every Message, there is a time limit; and soon shall ye know who will be inflicted with torture that will humiliate him, and who will be confronted by an everlasting punishment. (Fatima then turned towards the Ansars and said:) O you people of intellect! The strong supporters of the nation! And those who embraced Islam; What is this short?coming in defending my right? And what is this slumber (while you see) injustice (being done toward me)? Did not the Messenger of Allah, my father, used to say: A man is upheld (remembered) by his children'? O how quick have you violated (his orders)?! How soon have you plotted against us? But you still are capable (of helping me in) my attempt, and powerful (to help me) in that which I request and (in) my pursuit (of it). Or do you say: "Muhammad has perished;"

Surely this is a great calamity; Its damage is excessive its injury is great, Its wound (is much too deep) to heal.

The Earth became darkened with his departure; the stars eclipsed for his calamity; hopes were seized; mountains submitted; sanctity was violated, and holiness was encroached upon after his death. Therefore, this, by Allah, is the great affliction, and the grand calamity; there is not an affliction?which is the like of it; nor will there be a sudden misfortune (as surprising as this).

The Book of Allah?excellent in praising him?announced in the courtyards (of your houses) in the place where you spend your evenings and mornings; A call, A cry, A recitation, and (verses) in order. It had previously came upon His (Allah's) Prophets and Messengers; (for it is) A decree final, and a pre­destination fulfilled: "Muhammad is not but an Apostle: Many were the apostles that passed away before him. If he died or was slain, will ye then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude." O you people of reflection; will I be usurped the inheritance of my father while you hear and see me?! (And while) You are sitting and gathered around me? You hear my call, and are included in the (news of the) affair? (But) You are numerous and well equipped! (You have) the means and the power, and the weapons and the shields. Yet, the call reaches you but you do not answer; the cry comes to you but you do not come to help? (This) While you are characterized by struggle, known for goodness and welfare, the selected group (which was chosen), and the best ones chosen by the Messenger for us, Ahlul?Bayt. You fought the Arabs, bore with pain and exhaustion, struggled against the nations, and resisted their heroes. We were still, so were you in ordering you, and you in obeying us. So that Islam became triumphant, the accomplishment of the days came near, the fort of polytheism was subjected, the outburst of was subjected, the outburst of infidelity calmed down, and the system of religion was well?ordered. Thus, (why have you) become con­fused after clearness? Conceal matters after announcing them? Turned on your heels after daring? Associated (others with Allah) after believing? Will you not fight people who violated their oaths? Plotted to expel the Apostle and became aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if you believe!

Nevertheless, I see that you are inclined to easy living; dismissed he who is more worthy of guardianship (Ali (A)); You secluded yourselves with meekness and dismissed that which you accepted. Yet, if you show ingratitude, ye and all on earth together, yet, Allah free of all wants, worthy of all praise. Surely I have said all that I have said with full knowledge that you intent to forsake me, and knowing the betrayal that your hearts sensed. But it is the state of soul, the effusion of fury, the dissemination of (what is) the chest and the presentation of the proof. Hence, Here it is! Bag it (leadership and) put it on the back of an ill she­ camel, which has a thin hump with everlasting grace, marked with the wrath of Allah, and the blame of ever (which leads to) the Fire of (the wrath of Allah kindled (to a blaze), that which doth mount (right) to the hearts; For, Allah witnesses what you do, and soon will the unjust assailants know what vicissitudes their affairs will take! And I am the daughter of a warner (the Prophet) to you against a severe punishment. So, act and so will we, and wait, and we shall wait.’

(The end of Lady Fatima's speech.)

It appears from recorded historical events, that Lady Fatima (A) was successful at the beginning in persuading Abu Bakr to hand back Fadak to her; listen to part of a speech he (according to some historians) delivered after hearing Fatima's speech. He said:

"O daughter of the Messenger of Allah... Surely the Prophet is your father, not anyone else's, the brother of your husband, not any other man's; he surely preferred him over all his friends and (Ali) supported him in every important matter, no one loves you save the lucky and no one hates you save the wretched. You are the blessed progeny of Allah's Messenger, the chosen ones, our guides to goodness our path to Paradise, and you?the best of women?and the daughter of the best of prophets, truthful is your sayings, excelling in reason. You shall not be driven back from your right...But I surely heard your father

saying: `We the, group of prophets do not inherit, nor are we inherited Yet, this is my situation and property, it is yours (if you wish); it shall not be concealed from you, nor will it be stored away from you. You are the Mistress of your father's nation, and the blessed tree of your descendants. Your property shall not be usurped against your will nor can your name be defamed. Your judgment shall be executed in all that which I possess. This, do you think that I violate your father's (will)?"

Fatima then refuted Abu Bakr's claim that the Prophet had stated that prophets cannot be inherited, and said:

"Glory be to Allah!! Surely Allah's Messenger did not abandon Allah's Boob nor did he violate His commands. Rather, he followed its decrees and adhered to its chapters. So do you unite with treachery justifying your acts with fabrications? Indeed this?after his departure?is similar to the disasters which were plotted against him during his lifetime. But behold! This is Allah's Book, a just judge and a decisive speaker, saying:

`One that will (truly) inherit Me, and inherit the posterity of Yaqub,' (19:6)

and

‘And Sulaiman inherited Dawood.' (27: 16)

Thus, He (Glory be to Him) made clear that which He made share of all heirs, decreed from the amounts of inheritance, allowed for males and females, and eradicated all doubts and ambiguities (pertaining to this issue which existed with the) bygones.

Nay!

But your minds have made up a tale (that may pass) with you, but (for me) patience is most fitting against that which ye assert; it is Allah (alone) whose help can be sought."

It is apparent that Abu Bakr chanced the mode with which he addressed Lady Fatima (A) after delivering her speech. Listen to his following speech; which is his reply to Fatima's just reported speech.

Abu Bakr said:

"Surely Allah and His Apostle are truthful, and so has his (the Prophet's) daughter told the truth. Surely you are the source of wisdom, the element of faith, and the sole authority. May Allah not refute your righteous argument, nor invalidate your decisive speech. But these are the Muslims between us?who have entrusted me with leadership, and it was according to their satisfaction that 1 received what 1 have. I am not being arrogant, autocratic, or selfish, and they are my witnesses."

Upon hearing Abu Bakr speak of the people's support for him, Lady Fatima Zahra (A)

turned towards them and said:

"O people, who rush towards uttering falsehood and are indifferent to disgraceful and losing actions!

Do you not earnestly seek to reflect upon the Quran, or are your hearts isolated with locks? But on your hearts is the stain of the evil, which you committed; it has seized your hearing and your sight, evil is that which you justified cursed is that which you reckoned, and wicked is what you have taken for an exchange! You shall, by Allah, find bearing it (to be a great) burden, and its consequence disastrous. (That is) on the day when the cover is removed and appears to you what is behind it of wrath. When you will be confronted by Allah with that which you could never have expected, there will perish, there and then, those who stood on falsehoods." (the end).

Although parts of Abu Bakr's speeches cannot be verified with authentic evidence, and despite the fact that we have already mentioned part of the actual speech, which Abu Bakr delivered after Lady Fatima's arguments, it appears certain that Abu Bakr was finally persuaded to submit Fadak to her.

Nevertheless, when Fatima was leaving Abu Bakr's house, Umar suddenly appeared and exclaimed:

"What is it that you hold in your hand?"

Abu Bakr replied: 'A decree I have written for Fatima in which I assigned Fadak and her father's inheritance to her."

Umar then said: "With what will you spend on the Muslims if the Arabs decide to fight you?!"

Umar then seized the decree and tore it up!!!

http://www.imamreza.net/eng/imamreza.php?id=3387

Link to post
Share on other sites
To sunnis-

Is it logical that the Prophet (pbuh) would tell everyone else something concerning HIS OWN DAUGHTER (aka, Fadak), and not HIS OWN DAUGHTER? Does this even make the least bit of sense?

Wasalaam

Nabiullah (saw) didn't say "And don't give Fadak to my daughter", as paraphrased by Abu Bakr Siddiq "We (Annbiya) don't leave inheritence" for their children, and I've read something to the effect of "The inheritence of the prophet's is the ilm of the ulema" in a Shi'a (or possibly Ahlus Sunnah) book and I can go search for refs.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

but DP, you are missing the point. IF Prophet (pbuh) had said that prophets don't leave inheritance, wouldn't it make sense that he would've made sure to tell the ONE person who would've inherited from him??? I mean, it's not like there were a lot of people affected by this ruling, basically wives and his daughter.... But the fact is, and if you listened to the lecture I linked you'd know that, that Fadak wasn't an inheritance to Fatima (as) it was a GIFT, and Abu Bakr stole it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Everybody (sunnis and shias) agree that there was a disagreement between Abu Bakar and Lady Fatima over Fadak.

Lets assume that the arguments put forth by sunnis that Lady Fatima had never heard of the hadith that was used as an excuse by Abu Bakar is valid.

Lets also assume that sunnis claim that she did not remain angry with Abu Bakar till her death (as oppose to what Sahih Bukhari tells us) is also true.

There still remains another questio. Does it not mean that if not till her death than atleast for a while she was upset with Abu Bakar?

What was she angerd by? Was she upset that why was Abu Bakar being so honest or was she upset because she believed that Abu Bakar lied and fabricated the hadith?

If somebody at the time asked her why was she upset with Abu Bakar, what would have been her reply?

Edited by MOHIB E AHLAYBAIT
Link to post
Share on other sites
"The inheritence of the prophet's is the ilm of the ulema" in a Shi'a (or possibly Ahlus Sunnah) book and I can go search for refs.

That hadith is saying scholars inheritance of Prophets (as) is not of money but that of knowledge. It has nothing to do with whether Prophets (as) children inherit or not.

Ofcourse Prophets (as) have money, and some people would inherit that money. Now you saying Prophets (as) don't leave money for their hiers, this goes against the inheritance commands to all of mankind - the children of Prophets (as) don't have that wise law to the rest of society apply to them. Sunni hadiths show that everyone can inherit wealth from the Prophet (pbuh) but Fatima (as). This is how it's interpeted. Everyone is to inherit the wealth of the Prophet (pbuh) but Fatima (as). This is the twisted meaning given to the hadith. "what leave behind is charity" alone with the "whatever money he has left goes to his successor" shows sunnis see Abu Baker and muslims as people to inherit the wealth but not Fatima (as).

Prophets (as) do leave inheritance of knowledge, authority, and wealth. But scholars don't inherit wealth, this is not why they called inheritors of the Prophets (as).

The shia hadith actually doesn't support the sunni but has a different message than the sunni one.

Edited by Link
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Sayed Nakshawani detailed this really nicely. I learned a lot from the lecture, and wish others would open themselves to the same opportunity to learn.

Yes it was a fantastic lecture- you're talking about his "Economics of Fadak" right?

I cried so hard during that lecture- I don't remember a time I have ever cried so hard. I pray that on that Day that the status of the Lady of Light is recognized, that I am worthy of her blessed intercession.

Wasalaam

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
Abu Bakr (ra) and OTHER companions heard the Hadith from the Prophet (as) that Prophets do not leave inheritence. Fatima (ra) did not hear that. There was disagreement. This does not make anyone liar! In our book they are both Siddiq.

Salaamun Alaykum,

for heavens sake omar we are talking about inheritance.

if a daughter or a son does not know about the inheritance of their father then who else should know?....an outsider?

by saying that bibi fatema(A.S) was not aware of her fathers inheritance then you have directly insulted the relationship of the Prophet(S.A.W) and her daughter.

btw everybody here knows what their going to inherit when the time comes...everybody except Prophet(S.A.W)`s daughter...how pathetic.

Link to post
Share on other sites
but DP, you are missing the point. IF Prophet (pbuh) had said that prophets don't leave inheritance, wouldn't it make sense that he would've made sure to tell the ONE person who would've inherited from him??? I mean, it's not like there were a lot of people affected by this ruling, basically wives and his daughter.... But the fact is, and if you listened to the lecture I linked you'd know that, that Fadak wasn't an inheritance to Fatima (as) it was a GIFT, and Abu Bakr stole it.

You steal something when you take it for yourself. Abu Bakr (ra) DID NOT take Fadak for himslef, he left it as it was at the time of the Prophet (as). Do you have evidence that Abu Bakr (ra) took Fadak for himself? If not, the use of the owrd stole is innapropriate.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Salaamun Alaykum,

for heavens sake omar we are talking about inheritance.

if a daughter or a son does not know about the inheritance of their father then who else should know?....an outsider?

by saying that bibi fatema(A.S) was not aware of her fathers inheritance then you have directly insulted the relationship of the Prophet(S.A.W) and her daughter.

btw everybody here knows what their going to inherit when the time comes...everybody except Prophet(S.A.W)`s daughter...how pathetic.

Shia source CONFIRMING the Hadith heard by Abu Bakr (ra) and others:

According to Abu 'Abdillah (Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq), the Prophet of Allah said: "The scholars are the heirs to the Prophets and the Prophets did not leave dinars and dirhams as inheritance, but they left knowledge." [usul al-Kafi, vol. 1 p. 42 ].

Link to post
Share on other sites

.... and something else.

When Ali (as) became caliph after Uthman, he did not return Fadak to Fatima's progeny; instead, he upheld the decision of Abu Bakr. He also maintained Marwan's position as trustee of the Fadak (Marwan was instored as trustee of Fadak by Caliph Uthman). Ali was qoted as saying "I am ashamed before Allah to overturn something that was prohibited by Abu Bakr and continued by Umar" [sHIA source: Al-Murtada, Ash-Shafi fil-Imamah, p. 231]

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
You steal something when you take it for yourself. Abu Bakr (ra) DID NOT take Fadak for himslef, he left it as it was at the time of the Prophet (as). Do you have evidence that Abu Bakr (ra) took Fadak for himself? If not, the use of the owrd stole is innapropriate.

If I stole your money and gave it away to poors would it not be termed stealing? Ofcourse it will. The term steal is not restricted to property thats taken away for own personal use.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Shia source CONFIRMING the Hadith heard by Abu Bakr (ra) and others:

According to Abu 'Abdillah (Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq), the Prophet of Allah said: "The scholars are the heirs to the Prophets and the Prophets did not leave dinars and dirhams as inheritance, but they left knowledge." [usul al-Kafi, vol. 1 p. 42 ].

I am not aware of this hadith but even if its there in Usul al Kafi I don't believe its an authentic hadith. It contradicts other numerous ahadith. Even if we assume it is true it does not apply to the Fadak issue. For one Fadak is not dinar or dirhams which is what the hadith is ruling out as inheritance, second Fadak was not inheritance it was actually a gift given to Lady Fatima by Prophet during his lifetime.

Edited by MOHIB E AHLAYBAIT
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Now OmarKhazim can you please answer one question for me? Please be direct and don't beat around the bush.

Did or did not Abu Bakar ask Lady Fatima bring a witness??

Don't ignore this like you ussually do when you see that your loosing the battle of defending the theif of Fadak.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Now OmarKhazim can you please answer one question for me? Please be direct and don't beat around the bush.

Did or did not Abu Bakar ask Lady Fatima bring a witness??

Don't ignore this like you ussually do when you see that your loosing the battle of defending the theif of Fadak.

I have already asked you a question and did choose to ignore it. Why do think you I should answer yours?... this tactic is well known: answering a question with another question!

Link to post
Share on other sites
I am not aware of this hadith but even if its there in Usul al Kafi I don't believe its an authentic hadith. It contradicts other numerous ahadith. Even if we assume it is true it does not apply to the Fadak issue. For one Fadak is not dinar or dirhams which is what the hadith is ruling out as inheritance, second Fadak was not inheritance it was actually a gift given to Lady Fatima by Prophet during his lifetime.

This is YOUR opinion (so now YOU decide what to accept or not?!). Don't brush aside the two hadiths I have given from SHIA sources..... either accept that what Ali (ra) was in conformoty with his predecessors (3 Caliphs), or keep denying the truth. Ali (ra) once Caliph upheld the ruling of Abu Bakr (ra). Why uphold something unjust and wrong when you have the power and the mean to change it, when it is a Wajib to do so, especially when you are in the position of the supreme leader of the nation????

You can't brush aside this fact whatever DEVIATIONS you can try to divert from this core reality.

When Ali became caliph after Uthman, he did not return Fadak to Fatima's progeny; instead, he upheld the decision of Abu Bakr. He also maintained Marwan's position as trustee of the Fadak (Marwan was instored as trustee of Fadak by Caliph Uthman). Ali was qoted as saying "I am ashamed before Allah to overturn something that was prohibited by Abu Bakr and continued by Umar" [sHIA source: Al-Murtada, Ash-Shafi fil-Imamah, p. 231]

According to Abu 'Abdillah (Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq), the Prophet of Allah said: "The scholars are the heirs to the Prophets and the Prophets did not leave dinars and dirhams as inheritance, but they left knowledge." [usul al-Kafi, vol. 1 p. 42 ].

Link to post
Share on other sites

Salaam Alaiqum,

Yaa Ali madad haq hai haq hai haq hai

MUNAFIQS LOVE AND RESPECT LANTI MUAWIYA

Now OmarKhazim can you please answer one question for me? Please be direct and don't beat around the bush.

Did or did not Abu Bakar ask Lady Fatima bring a witness??

Don't ignore this like you ussually do when you see that your loosing the battle of defending the theif of Fadak.

Excellent question and sunnis /wahabis /munafiqs will igonre this question

who were the witneses that Holy lady Fatima A.S braught and why were they rejected ????

EXCELENT QUESION

MUNAFIQS LOVE AND RESPECT LANTI MUAWIYA

Allah Hafiz

Yaa Ali Madad

Firoz Ali

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
This is YOUR opinion (so now YOU decide what to accept or not?!). Don't brush aside the two hadiths I have given from SHIA sources..... either accept that what Ali (ra) was in conformoty with his predecessors (3 Caliphs), or keep denying the truth. Ali (ra) once Caliph upheld the ruling of Abu Bakr (ra). Why uphold something unjust and wrong when you have the power and the mean to change it, when it is a Wajib to do so, especially when you are in the position of the supreme leader of the nation????

You can't brush aside this fact whatever DEVIATIONS you can try to divert from this core reality.

I gave you a reason as to why the hadith cited by you are either fabricted or inaccurate. You still insist that I accept your hadith wihtout citing a reason as to why. If you expect me to take accept the hadith then can you explain why aren't you willing to do the same when numerous times ahaidth are cited from sahi bukhari you either claim that they are fabricated or give a twisted interpretation of it.

If I cite ahadith from sahi bukhari will you be willing to accept them as well?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
I have already asked you a question and did choose to ignore it. Why do think you I should answer yours?... this tactic is well known: answering a question with another question!

Sorry I might ahve missed your question. Please direct me to the post and I will jrespond to it, in hopes you can give me a reply to my question as well.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

(salam)

MOHIB E AHLAYBAIT
I am not aware of this hadith but even if its there in Usul al Kafi I don't believe its an authentic hadith.

brother mohib,

did you consult a Marjaa before concluding a hadeeth to be fabricated or unauthentic ? This is a major problem shia have in making a personal judgement of a hadeeth. If it had suited your desire you also would have judged that is is authentic !!

wa alsalam

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
(salam)

brother mohib,

did you consult a Marjaa before concluding a hadeeth to be fabricated or unauthentic ? This is a major problem shia have in making a personal judgement of a hadeeth. If it had suited your desire you also would have judged that is is authentic !!

wa alsalam

Sis I don't need to consult a marjaa when Lady Fatima did not believe in it. She proved it wrong citing verses of quran. The hadith clearly contradicts quran, then what reason do I have to consult a marjaa?

Edited by MOHIB E AHLAYBAIT
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

(salam)

Brother,

First thing, In Islam it is Wajeb when a muslim sends you Alsalm 3alakum that you reply back with a better salution.

Anyway brother so what I understand from your above reply that even if All the Marajie confirmed the authenticity of the hadeeth you will still reject it because you desire to since you are not convinced.

This is what Islam calls following your own desires,

Wa salam

Link to post
Share on other sites
I gave you a reason as to why the hadith cited by you are either fabricted or inaccurate. You still insist that I accept your hadith wihtout citing a reason as to why. If you expect me to take accept the hadith then can you explain why aren't you willing to do the same when numerous times ahaidth are cited from sahi bukhari you either claim that they are fabricated or give a twisted interpretation of it.

If I cite ahadith from sahi bukhari will you be willing to accept them as well?

These were not MY hadiths, these were YOUR hadiths, SHIA hadiths which you are saying are innacurate/fabricated!!??

In conclusion:

----------------

- If a Sunni hadith seemingly supports your argument, you jump on it, accept it and use it.

- If a Sunni hadith seemingly defeats your argument, you say it is fabricated and you reject it.

- if a Shia hadith seemingly supports your argument, you jump on it, accept it and use it.

- If a Shia hadith seemingly defeats your argument, you say it is fabricated and you reject it.

Now TELL ME: WHEN do you accept defeat? It seems you are always in for a winner!! Not a bad deal!!

Listen to me now, if your own hadiths are fabricated and you can't accept them, that is YOUR OWN problem. And don't ask me any questions, if you can't accept your own sources that defeats your own inclinations and twisted opinions. You were given hadiths from BOTH Sunni and Shia sources. You've had more than your share! Just accept it and stop turning around in circles.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

I looked at the hadith it just reminded me of the hadith that Abu Bakar quoted when he stole Fadak from Lady Fatima and hence called it fabricated. However I was at fault, due to my very limited knowledge I jumped the gun and stated that it must be fabricated however our ullamas have called the hadith authentic and a detalied explanation is given by them as well.

Omarkhazim you can check this site for a detailed explanation.

After this incident I have realized that I am in no position to participate in such debates due to my very limited knowledge and will not be participating in this shia sunni dialogue forum anymore.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
I looked at the hadith it just reminded me of the hadith that Abu Bakar quoted when he stole Fadak from Lady Fatima and hence called it fabricated. However I was at fault, due to my very limited knowledge I jumped the gun and stated that it must be fabricated however our ullamas have called the hadith authentic and a detalied explanation is given by them as well.

Omarkhazim you can check this site for a detailed explanation.

After this incident I have realized that I am in no position to participate in such debates due to my very limited knowledge and will not be participating in this shia sunni dialogue forum anymore.

Bro, we all have limited knowledge. Still, the little knowledge that we do have, can be of benefit to others.

Wasalaam

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Bro, we all have limited knowledge. Still, the little knowledge that we do have, can be of benefit to others.

Wasalaam

(salam)

One thing which makes me surprised is that Sunnis will never answer to a question which they know will put their believs in question!

I asked many sunnis about this and they failed to answer or were afraid to answer the question. Prophet(saw) who came to this world to complete the job of all 124000 prophets sent to this world before him however could not complete his job as a father(naudhubillah) to tell his child what is good and what is not. Or what to do after his death or what not to do!

MohibA,

Bro, you have lots of knowledge and you increase your knowledge by sharing it with others. We would like to see you stay.

Ya Ali(as) Madad.

Link to post
Share on other sites
That hadith is saying scholars inheritance of Prophets (as) is not of money but that of knowledge. It has nothing to do with whether Prophets (as) children inherit or not.

Ofcourse Prophets (as) have money, and some people would inherit that money. Now you saying Prophets (as) don't leave money for their hiers, this goes against the inheritance commands to all of mankind - the children of Prophets (as) don't have that wise law to the rest of society apply to them. Sunni hadiths show that everyone can inherit wealth from the Prophet (pbuh) but Fatima (as). This is how it's interpeted. Everyone is to inherit the wealth of the Prophet (pbuh) but Fatima (as). This is the twisted meaning given to the hadith. "what leave behind is charity" alone with the "whatever money he has left goes to his successor" shows sunnis see Abu Baker and muslims as people to inherit the wealth but not Fatima (as).

Prophets (as) do leave inheritance of knowledge, authority, and wealth. But scholars don't inherit wealth, this is not why they called inheritors of the Prophets (as).

The shia hadith actually doesn't support the sunni but has a different message than the sunni one.

Maybe omar missed this. And the translation you showed it misleading. It means Prophet's legacies is not that of wealth but that of knowledge. The inheritance of the scholars from Prophets (as) is inheritance of knowledge not that of wealth. This it's real translation. Because it's well known fact, whether the children of Prophets (as) inherited the money or not, someone did inherit the money (muslims, poor people, someone). The hadith in sunnis sources is different then shia one. The shia one is saying the legacy of Prophets (as) is not that of wealth, rather then of knowledge, and scholars are the inheritors of Prophets (as). The sunni one saying Prophets (as) don't leave money for their hiers they give to the people instead. Two completely different hadiths and meanings.

Edited by Link
Link to post
Share on other sites
(salam)

One thing which makes me surprised is that Sunnis will never answer to a question which they know will put their believs in question!

I asked many sunnis about this and they failed to answer or were afraid to answer the question. Prophet(saw) who came to this world to complete the job of all 124000 prophets sent to this world before him however could not complete his job as a father(naudhubillah) to tell his child what is good and what is not. Or what to do after his death or what not to do!

MohibA,

Bro, you have lots of knowledge and you increase your knowledge by sharing it with others. We would like to see you stay.

Ya Ali(as) Madad.

The Prophet (as) did not join his Lord until his Mission was COMPLETE (i.e. the Deen was complete), as is clear from the verse in the Quor'an. He left the Quor'an for us for guidance, and a wealth of hadith traditions that reached us through his companions and members of his family. Nowadays, you don't find anything in Deen that is not covered... and when there are new things appearing, the door of Ijtihad is open for those who have the knowledge and tools to do so.

Link to post
Share on other sites
but DP, you are missing the point. IF Prophet (pbuh) had said that prophets don't leave inheritance, wouldn't it make sense that he would've made sure to tell the ONE person who would've inherited from him??? I mean, it's not like there were a lot of people affected by this ruling, basically wives and his daughter.... But the fact is, and if you listened to the lecture I linked you'd know that, that Fadak wasn't an inheritance to Fatima (as) it was a GIFT, and Abu Bakr stole it.

Salaam,

(Fadak wasn't an inheritance to Fatima (as) it was a GIFT, and Abu Bakr stole it.)

I just want to say that you should think before accusing people of stealing and more important if the people you are accusing were respected and loved by the prophet PBUH himself.

I dont know how did you get the idea that abu baker was a theif. I am sure Allah SWT would not let a thief become the first leader of the muslim nation after the prophet PBUH died. After the prophet PBUH death, the situation for the muslims was very critical, Islam and the muslim people needed a leader who would be pure and SADIQE to the lead the muslims and cotinue the mission of the prophet. I believe that Allah SWT would only allow the most trusted and fit person to lead the muslim nation and that person was abo baker.

Please sister, I dont think you have the right to accuse Abo Baker of being a thief. Take some time and think of what you are saying, you should applogize of what you said and ask Allah for forgiveness.

May Allah guide us to the truth and unite us to spread Islam in this world.

SALAM

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

check post #66

As for what Allah (SWT) WANTS from us, and what HE (SWT) ALLOWS us to do are two different things. I'm sure there are A LOT of things that Allah (SWT) doesn't want people to do, to let themelves be or become, but HE (SWT) ALLOWS it because our reward or punishment is EARNED (according to HIS (SWT) WORD, Qur'an), not simply given regardless of our actions. We are ranked by our piety and submission to Allah (SWT). Sometimes the appearance of good things being given to what we perceive to be the least deserving people is but a test to that person, not really a blessing at all.

But I digress, there is no arguing the FACTS that Fadak belonged rightfully to Bibi Fatima (as), and Abu Bakr deprived her of her right to it. A thief is a thief, even dressed in the guise of a caliph.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...