Shia And Sunni Views On Seafood

[abdullah218]

Okay, there are many verses in the Quran which would support the view the Sunni view about all animals in the sea would be halaal to eat.

Lawful to you is the pursuit of water-game and its use for food, for the benefit of yourselves and those who travel; but forbidden is the pursuit of land-game, as long as you are in the state of Ihram (for Hajj or Umrah). And fear Allah, to Whom you shall be gathered back. Al-Ma-ida: 96

And it is HE Who has subjected the sea (to you), that you may eat thereof fresh tender meat, and that you may extract out of it ornaments to wear. And you see the ships ploughing through it, that you may seek (thus) of the HIS bounty (by transporting the goods from place to place) and that you may be grateful. An-Nahl: 14

And the two seas (kinds of water) are not alike: this is fresh, sweet and pleasant to drink, and that is salt and bitter. And from them both you eat fresh tender meat, and extract ornaments that you wear. And you see the ships cleaving (the sea water as they sail through it), that you may seek of HIS bounty, and that you may give thanks. Fatir: 12

But for us, where are the sources that go against verses from the QURAN? Why should we follow these sources over this Quranic verse?

I tried to do a search on this topic but I couldn't use the search option, so forgive me if this is a repeat. Atleast it's not another mutah topic

Thanks

Edited January 17, 2007 by abdullah218

[Renaissance_Man]

^

You need to put those verses into context. It pertains to dietary guidelines during the state of Ihram.

[abdullah218]

^

You need to put those verses into context. It pertains to dietary guidelines during the state of Ihram.

Okay one what is Ihram and how does Ihram have an effect on what is halaal or not from the sea?

Two I mean I feel bad even asking this or saying this but Allah (SWT) gives a detailed description as to what land animals are okay to eat, but what about animals from the sea? These verses are so general it would be hard to not think that anything from the sea is halaal to eat.

[Renaissance_Man]

When a person is performing Hajj or Umrah, they are in the state of Ihram and there are certain things they can and cannot do.

The ayah is referring to those animals in the sea and land that we are allowed to consume while in Ihram but not which animals are halal or haram in general. For example, it forbids the land game (animals) while one is on pilgrimage but you cannot deduce from that verse that all animals are halal otherwise.

[Submitter]

You need to put those verses into context. It pertains to dietary guidelines during the state of Ihram.

WRONG.

Only verse 96 of the chapter "al-Maida" is in context of the "ihram"

The other two verses stated ( al-Nahl 14, and Fatir 12 ) have nothing to do with "ihram"

Okay one what is Ihram and how does Ihram have an effect on what is halaal or not from the sea?

Excellent question

2a) Disrespect to any Mujtahid, Marja' Taqleed, or religious authority will not be tolerated whatsoever. . and that applies to general disrespect of as well. You don't enter people's houses and then begin to insult them. Either debate in a civil manner or stay silent.

The state of "ihram" mentioned in "al-Maida 96" has nothing to do with the pilgrimage (Hajj).

It is talking about the 4 restricted months. Muslims today , who follow their mullahs blindly like hypnotized sheep while completely deserting the Quran, have ignored a very important law set by God.

There are 4 months of the year when hunting land mamals is FORBIDDEN because it is their mating season. Hunting during this time, year after year, can lead to their extinction.

Sea animals, on the other hand, do not have a mating season. Therefore, we can catch them and eat them anytime we want.

Do you see this interpretation as "bidaa" or "satanic"?

Two I mean I feel bad even asking this or saying this but Allah (SWT) gives a detailed description as to what land animals are okay to eat, but what about animals from the sea? These verses are so general it would be hard to not think that anything from the sea is halaal to eat

No need to feel bad. Saying the truth hurts sometimes.

God gave us a detailed description on which land animals cannot be eaten. It is all found in the Quran, and the verses are simple and easy to understand. Since God did not place any restrictions on sea animals, it means they are ALL HALAL. Anyone who claims certain sea-foods are haram must provide the Quranic verse to prove his position.

IF he cannot, then he is a LIAR and fits under the description of the following verse:

áÇ ÊÞæáæ áãÇ ÊÕÝ ÃáÓäÊßã åÐÇ ÍáÇá æ åÐÇ ÍÑÇã áÊÝÊÑæÇ Úáì Çááå ÇáßÐÈ, Çä ÇáÐíä íÝÊÑæä Úáì Çááå ÇáßÐÈ áÇ íÝáÍæä

{And do not say to what your tongues describe "this is permitted" and "this is prohibitted" to invent lies about God. Those who invent lies about God do not prevail}

[AL-NAHL: 116]

The muslims of today do not believe or trust God. They would rather trust their mullahs.

____________________________________

Peace.

[abdullah218]

I would like to read some Shia sources which state which animals from the sea are okay.

Here is how I viewed Islam when I converted, the Quran is obviously the source that CAN NOT be questioned.

Hadiths on the other hand are VERY sketchy and need a grain of salt before digesting, and it's hard for me IN THESE kind of situations to put hadiths on a higher validity than the Quran. What I'm trying to say is, I know there are Shia hadith which are supposed to be authentic which state which seafoods are halaal and which aren't however, how is this hadith more valid than Allah's (swt) word?

I want the hadiths that specifically say which foods are haram and which aren't. If these hadiths do not specifically say which foods are haraam and which aren't halaal, then how can we as Shia come to this conclusion that some seafoods are halaal and some aren't?

Really if you have information please share it inshallah

[Karbala110]

WRONG.

Only verse 96 of the chapter "al-Maida" is in context of the "ihram"

The other two verses stated ( al-Nahl 14, and Fatir 12 ) have nothing to do with "ihram"

Excellent question

THis is just another example of how the bearded "mullahs" and so-called "marja3s" have corrupted the religion and made themselves gods on Earth, and given themselves the license of "tahleel" and "tahreem" as they wish.

The state of "ihram" mentioned in "al-Maida 96" has nothing to do with the pilgrimage (Hajj).

It is talking about the 4 restricted months. Muslims today , who follow their mullahs blindly like hypnotized sheep while completely deserting the Quran, have ignored a very important law set by God.

There are 4 months of the year when hunting land mamals is FORBIDDEN because it is their mating season. Hunting during this time, year after year, can lead to their extinction.

Sea animals, on the other hand, do not have a mating season. Therefore, we can catch them and eat them anytime we want.

Do you see this interpretation as "bidaa" or "satanic"?

No need to feel bad. Saying the truth hurts sometimes.

God gave us a detailed description on which land animals cannot be eaten. It is all found in the Quran, and the verses are simple and easy to understand. Since God did not place any restrictions on sea animals, it means they are ALL HALAL. Anyone who claims certain sea-foods are haram must provide the Quranic verse to prove his position.

IF he cannot, then he is a LIAR and fits under the description of the following verse:

áÇ ÊÞæáæ áãÇ ÊÕÝ ÃáÓäÊßã åÐÇ ÍáÇá æ åÐÇ ÍÑÇã áÊÝÊÑæÇ Úáì Çááå ÇáßÐÈ, Çä ÇáÐíä íÝÊÑæä Úáì Çááå ÇáßÐÈ áÇ íÝáÍæä

{And do not say to what your tongues describe "this is permitted" and "this is prohibitted" to invent lies about God. Those who invent lies about God do not prevail}

[AL-NAHL: 116]

The muslims of today do not believe or trust God. They would rather trust their mullahs.

____________________________________

Peace.

Ah please enlighten me which school of thought you follow? As far as I remember reading on this forums is that you are neither a sunni nor a Shia so do tell

And also just a statement about your post if you think we didnot have belief in God then how do you think Shia Islam has progressed so much?

I guess this is off topic but maybe in a new thread we can discuss this! :)

[abdullah218]

Ah please enlighten me which school of thought you follow? As far as I remember reading on this forums is that you are neither a sunni nor a Shia so do tell

And also just a statement about your post if you think we didnot have belief in God then how do you think Shia Islam has progressed so much?

I guess this is off topic but maybe in a new thread we can discuss this! :)

No offense but yeah please PM him because I want my questions answered.

[Karbala110]

^ Sorry I shall PM him! :)

No probs I understand!

[abdullah218]

Hasan_Sajjad

Thank you for the hadiths, but you didn't explain the context of the other verses from the Quran about seafood. Submitter mentioned that the other verses were not refering to Ihram, do you have anything to say in regards to this?

[Submitter]

^ Well, first submitter claimed that "ihram" here does not mean the ihram we wear during pilgrimage. I highly doubt he is correct.

Let's get a few things straight:

How do you people perform your "hajj" today? When does a pilgrim enter the state of "ihram"? ( I heard usually it's while he is still on the airplane heading towards Mecca, isn't it so? ) And how long does the state of "ihram" last? ( a few days? 2-3 days is all one needs to perform the rituals of the pilgrimage, get his hair cut, and remove his "ihram" garment..

The reason I stated this is to show you that the state of "ihram" during a pilgrimage is usually no more than 2-3 days. Isn't that how long it takes to perform all the rituals over there?

Now let's look at the verse again and use common sense, shall we??

أحل لكم صيد البحر وطعامه متعا لكم وللسيارة وحرم عليكم صيد البر ما دمتم حرما واتقوا الله الذي إليه تحشرون

{Lawful for you is the catch of the sea, to eat it as enjoyment for you and for those who travel; and forbidden for you is the catch of the land as long as you are under restriction; and be aware of God to whom you will be gathered.}

[5:96]

It is clear that the verse is talking about hunting/catching restrictions. In otherwords: GAME.

If we were to interpret the phrase: ما دمتم حرما as meaning "while wearing the 'ihram' dress and performing the rituals in Mecca" - as your scholars claim - this will lead to 2 questions, and I hope you can answer them:

1 - WHY WOULD A PERSON WHO IS IN MECCA, PERFORMING THE RITUALS OF THE PILGRIMAGE, EVEN THINK OF GOING OUT OF HIS WAY TO HUNT LAND ANIMALS OR CATCH FISH IN THE FIRST PLACE?

2 - IS THERE A LAKE, SEA, OR ANY OTHER LARGE BODY OF WATER CONTAINING FISH ANYWHERE NEAR MECCA, SUCH THAT A "MUHRIM" PERSON CAN GO THERE, WITHIN THE 2-3 DAYS REQUIRED TO FINISH HIS RITUALS ( MANASIK), CATCH FISH, THEN RETURN AND STILL BE WITHIN THE PERIOD OF IHRAM??

Am I making any sense here?

God is saying in 5:96 that it is NOT permissible for us to HUNT land animals during "ihram"; but we are allowed to catch marine game during that time.

What on Earth does this have to do with "wearing the ihram dress"???

Think and analyse however you wish. Label me a "kafir" if you wish, for I do not care. In the end, God will judge me.

But know this: God tells us, in the Quran, that there are FOUR RESTRICTED MONTHS:

Read the verse:

إن عدة الشهور عند الله اثنا عشر شهرا في كتب الله يوم خلق السموت والأرض منها أربعة حرم ذلك الدين القيم فلا تظلموا

{The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system (DEEN) ; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.}

[9:36]

These 4 restricted months are special in that:

1- Fighting is prohibitted in them

Yes, most of you are fully aware of this. But I bet not many are aware of the second point:

2- HUNTING OF LAND ANIMALS (GAME) IS ALSO PROHIBITTED DURING THESE 4 MONTHS.

Why, you may ask?

Because every year, there is a period for animals to mate and increase their number. If we hunt them all year-round, we will hasten their extinction. This law is being enforced by God, who is compassionate and merciful towards ALL his creatures, and not just bany Adam. However, your "scholars" have completely ignored this law, and 99.99% of muslims are unaware of it.

In fact, this second law proves, without the shadow of a doubt that the entire "islamic Hijri Calendar" is the most ridiculous and laughable calendar system in the history of mankind, and was probably created by an imbecile scholar of the Ummayad court.

Why, you may ask?

BECAUSE IT DOES NOT CONFORM WITH THE SEASONS.

Using a lunar calendar is not wrong in itself . The Jews use it also. The months of the Jewish calendar , for your info,

ex:"Hishvan" , "Tishri", "Adar", etc.. are all LUNAR months, however, they are FIXED with the seaons, and they never change.

Have you ever paused a little, and thought about the names of the Arabic Months?? What they actually mean??

Please note that the names of these months are not necessarily Islamic. They may very well have existed since before Islam.

Even the pre-Islamic Arabs knew about the hunting season, and when it should be observed.

Jamadi al-Awwal

Jamadi al-Thani

Safar

Rajab

Shaaban

Ramadan

Rabie al-Awwal

Rabie al-Thani

etc...

All these months existed in pre-Islamic Arabia, and were given their names due to natural phenomena observed by the Arabs.

For example:

-Rabie al- Awwal = First Spring

-Rabie al- Thani = Second Spring

-Ramadan = Hot earth ( word is derived from the root "رمض" = heat) Which means that Ramadan is supposed to be a month in the late summer.

-Shaaban = Spliting into groups or veins ( word is derived from the root "شعب"). In the classical Arabic lexicon, you can find the following definition:

" شعبان/ هي من شعب/ و منها أيضا: تشعب/ و منها شعبان ( وزن "فعلان

و شعبان شهر عربي سمى كذلك لأنهم كانو يتشعبون فيه الى فرق, بحثا عن الماء في الصحراء.

It's all in the dictionary. I am not fabricating anything. Do your research. Use your brains and don't take everything you learned from your parents and scholars for granted.

As you can see, all these months actually have ( or shoud I say : HAD ) meaningful names, because they used to conform to the seasons.

But the way the calendar works today, is that you have Rabie-al Awwal - for example - which means SPRING, moving back 11 days each year and coming sometimes in summer, sometimes in winter, and sometimes in autumn. Funny, isn't it?

The restricted months no longer have meaning, because they do not conform to the seasons...

Now, historically, the Arabs used to fix the discrepency between the solar and the lunar months by applying an intercalary month known as "the Nasee' ". However, many of them began to cheat by playing around with the "Nasee'" and changing it , according to their whims.

God forbade them from doing this, becasue it lead to the perversion of the true meaning of the Restricted Month(s):

إنما النسيء زيادة في الكفر يضل به الذين كفروا يحلونه عاما ويحرمونه عاما ليواطءوا عدة ما حرم الله فيحلوا ما حرم الله زين لهم سوء أعملهم والله لا يهدي القوم الكفرين

{Know that the use of the additional ( intercalary )month causes an increase in rejection, for it is used by those who have rejected that they may misguide with it by making it lawful one year and forbidding it one year, so as to circumvent the count that God has made restricted; thus they make lawful what God made forbidden! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people}

[9:37]

Note the red part: They abused the use of the intercalary month in order to make lawful what God has made forbidden:

ie:

1- Fighting

2- Hunting land animals.

So as you can see, the use of "nasee'" in itself was never prohibited by God . What was prohibited was the ABUSE of it, and playing around with it ( advancing it one year, and pulling it back another just to suit their whims).

But if we were to use it properly, and insert it once every 33 months, then the whole problem of discrepency between the Solar and Lunar year would be fixed.

The current state of the "hijri" calendar and its failure to conform to the seaons is in fact a relic of the Ummayad swine sultans and their satanic scholars ( the same ones who fabricated all those satanic "Hadiths" and attributed them to the Prophet).

You want proof that the people of Muhammad knew about the seasons??

Here, these verses alone are enough:

لإيلف قريش

إلفهم رحلة الشتاء والصيف

فليعبدوا رب هذا البيت

الذي أطعمهم من جوع وءامنهم من خوف

{This should be cherished by Quraysh.

The way they cherish the journey of the winter and summer.

So let them serve the Lord of this Sanctuary.

The One who fed them from hunger, and protected them from fear}

[106: 1- 104]

So, now we can conclude that the "state of ihram" mentioned in [5:96] is in fact about prohibbiting the hunting (GAME) of wild land mamals during these 4 restricted months, and has nothing to do with the "Hajj" ( pilgrimage).

Furthermore, the 4 restricted months must come in SUCCESSION, and not be split the way they are, and I do NOT CARE WHAT THE HADITHS SAY. :angry:

And they must be FIXED according to the seasons.

Submitter ridicules our scholars and scholars in general. Submitter let me pose these questions to you, how many times have you read the Quran completely? How many hours in your life have you spent contemplating each and every verse of the Quran? Do you understand Arabic?

I have read the Quran enough times to know that 99.99% of muslims have gone astray and no longer follow it. They recite it only during funerals, and wave their heads from side to side in Majalis while listening to the Sheikh's rythmic recitation of it, and never make an effort to understand it, because their mullahs have been "doing the understanding for them" .. so to speak..

I have read it enough times to understand that it is self-sufficient and revealed in a simple and eloquent style, and yet no human

can ever produce anything like it.

I have read it enough times to understand that it contains everything we need to live a fruitful life and afterlife.

I have read it enough times to understand that deserting it , and following the "قال عن قيل" conjectures of HADITHS is the cause of all our miseries and divisions.

And yes , I am an Arab.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Peace...

Edited January 17, 2007 by Submitter

[abdullah218]

Hmmm not killing animals during a specific month first off is something I never heard about and is not only very interesting but makes perfect sense but thats a side note. Unfortanetly I'm still a little lost, I guess I will have to wait til I get home to read my Shia Quran unless someone can give the interpretation of those other two verses. Even still then I may not understand how hadith can over rule verse from the Quran, because we can always say that this hadith or that hadith is "authentic" but what does that actually mean? We all know that hadiths are written by men, so how can we trust them? When do we say this hadith is fake and this one isn't?

[abdullah218]

Anyone else care to add anything?

[Dhulfiqar]

Submitter so wittingly said:

IS THERE A LAKE, SEA, OR ANY OTHER LARGE BODY OF WATER CONTAINING FISH ANYWHERE NEAR MECCA, SUCH THAT A "MUHRIM" PERSON CAN GO THERE, WITHIN THE 2-3 DAYS REQUIRED TO FINISH HIS RITUALS ( MANASIK), CATCH FISH, THEN RETURN AND STILL BE WITHIN THE PERIOD OF IHRAM??

I don't know which century you are living in, perhaps 2007 BC? Heard of Filet-o-Fish Meal #9 at McDonalds (without the fries)? You don't have to fish for your fish anymore. You can buy it at the store.

If they make a Ski Mountain in the desert, you don't think they can make a lake? But who needs all that when you have the RED SEA!

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

Edited January 19, 2007 by Dhulfiqar

[Submitter]

The Quran says itself: Shakir 3:7]He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

Are you firmly rooted in knowledge, enough to be amongst those who the Quran considers firmly rooted in Knowledge?

The Quran has made it CLEAR that the teachings and sayings of the Ahlul Bait are necessary in understanding the Quran. The Quran has made it clear our scholars and maraja are necessary for us to be able to understand the Quran. Who are you to reject what Allah (swt) has made so clear?

Because of the veil that God has placed over your eyes, you can't see that the verse 3:7 is talking about the MUTASHABIH (Allegorical) verses.

The verses that deal with the restrictions of food and hunting are MUHKAM verses, because they contain laws.

2a) Disrespect to any Mujtahid, Marja' Taqleed, or religious authority will not be tolerated whatsoever. . and that applies to general disrespect of as well. You don't enter people's houses and then begin to insult them. Either debate in a civil manner or stay silent.

Anyway, the topic is not about MUHKAM and MUTASHABIH, so I will not elaborate more.

However, I would like you to kindly ask your infallible "marja3s" the following question:

Why is it that the pilgrimage to Mecca has been made in such a way so as to be a period of few days only, and everyone has to go at the same time. ( 2 million people have to stand on Arafa at the same time, circumbulate the Kaaba at the same time - and trample and kill each other in the process- etc.. )

Why is it that they have made it only one "hijja" for everyone, when the Quran clearly states that Hajj is a whole SEASON of not less than 3 months, and that people can go successive groups.

ÇáÍÌ ÃÔåÑ ãÚáæãÊ Ýãä ÝÑÖ Ýíåä ÇáÍÌ ÝáÇ ÑÝË æáÇ ÝÓæÞ æáÇ ÌÏÇá Ýí ÇáÍÌ æãÇ ÊÝÚáæÇ ãä ÎíÑ íÚáãå Çááå æÊÒæÏæÇ ÝÅä ÎíÑ ÇáÒÇÏ ÇáÊÞæì æÇÊÞæä íÃæáí ÇáÃáÈÈ

{The Pilgrimage is during the months which have been appointed. So whosoever decides to perform the Pilgrimage therein, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding.}

[2:197]

As you can see, the part of the verse I have outlined in red states that the pilgrimage can be done over a period of MONTHS (Ashhur).

Ask your mullahs why they made it only "one hijja" for everyone at the same time.

Or, you can just make your usual claim and say: : "Who are you to interpret the Quran? Didn't you know that the word "months" (ashhur) has 7 million hidden secret meanings?"

I don't know which century you are living in, perhaps 2007 BC? Heard of Filet-o-Fish Meal #9 at McDonalds (without the fries)? You don't have to fish for your fish anymore. You can buy it at the store.

Do you people ever use your brains??

The restriction is NOT about EATING. It's about HUNTING.

ÃÍá áßã ÕíÏ ÇáÈÍÑ æØÚÇãå ãÊÚÇ áßã æááÓíÇÑÉ æÍÑã Úáíßã ÕíÏ ÇáÈÑ ãÇ ÏãÊã ÍÑãÇ æÇÊÞæÇ Çááå ÇáÐí Åáíå ÊÍÔÑæä

Do I need to make the word "sayd" any larger for you to see it??

IF you go to macDonalds and eat your MacFish or whatever junk you eat there, you are eating FROZEN fish. The fish that was used to make it was caught previously and frozen. You are only EATING it. Not hunting (fishing) it. The restrcition is on HUNTING the meat..Not on eating. However, since they did not have freezers back then, the senario is unimaginable. They hunted to eat immediately, and not to freeze and keep for later. The meat wouldn't last.

Still don't understand??

Marine animals don't have specific mating seasons. So fishing them is permitted all year round.

Wild land animals and birds , however, have a specific mating season. In order to preserve them, God has restricted hunting them during that season.

Nowadays, we have the capability of deep freezing our meats. So, the following senario ( wich was unimaginable back then ) is perfectly acceptable:

I go and hunt a deer. I chop it up, clean it ,and put it in the freezer. I can eat it DURING the 4 restricted month, becasue it was hunted previously. The restriction is on HUNTING, and not EATING.

_______________________________________________________________________

Peace..

[SpIzo]

Anyone else care to add anything?

Yeah, don't fall for Submitter's arguments. Because he doesn't believe that the Prophet explained the Qur'an and just left it upon us to interpret it as we want.

Needless to say, he does not believe in the Ahle Bayt [as] too.

[abdullah218]

Submitter first are you Shia, Sunni, non-sectarian? I don't want to go on a side note but I thought I heard that some fish do have a mating season like Salmon...... "Just like the salmon, those damned salmon, faithfully make their way upstream each year in time for mating season, it" http://www.moxiemag.com/moxie/articles/per...ngupstream.html

Edited January 19, 2007 by abdullah218

[Submitter]

It is inevitable that the discussion will stray off topic and we start talking about the Hajj.

1 -

Shawwal, Dhilqad and Dhilhajj are the well known months.

Yes, I agree.

2-

One can start the pilgrimage in these months but the principal performance of hajj has been prescribed in the month of Dhilhajj.

3-

The only thing that everyone must do together is the day of Arafat.

Here is where I disagree with you. Points 2 and 3 are connected. There is no mention in the Quran, whatsoever, that everyone must stand together on the alledged "day of Arafa". This tradition is derived from Hadith. According to the Hadith, the stand on Arafa , which MUST BE DONE IN THE MONTH OF DHULHIJJA, is the only thing that differentiates Hajj from Umura.

The Quran says that the HAJJ , in it's ENTIRETY, can be observed in any of the 3 above-mentioned months.

Furthermore, I don't agree with you on the meaning of the word "Umura", so I think we should get a few things straight.

Historicaly, the seaon of Hajj always took place in the cooler months of the year. This is obvious, of course, because the idea behind Hajj was to gather all the faithful, from all races and color, to meet in this one place, discuss religion and political affairs, perform the "manasik" at God's sanctuary, feed the poor and the needy, and trade.

Do not be surprised at this trading affair, because it is a historical fact. The merchants used to take advantage of this season to come and trade their goods.

This proves that the seaons of Hajj was during a FIXED time every year ( Before the ignorant Ummayads decided to obliterate the intercalary month and caused a discrepency between the lunar and solar year ).

Let us look at the verses again:

ÇáÍÌ ÃÔåÑ ãÚáæãÊ Ýãä ÝÑÖ Ýíåä ÇáÍÌ ÝáÇ ÑÝË æáÇ ÝÓæÞ æáÇ ÌÏÇá Ýí ÇáÍÌ æãÇ ÊÝÚáæÇ ãä ÎíÑ íÚáãå Çááå æÊÒæÏæÇ ÝÅä ÎíÑ ÇáÒÇÏ ÇáÊÞæì æÇÊÞæä íÃæáí ÇáÃáÈÈ

[2:197]

God gave us an entire season of three known and fixed months.

This does not mean that the "manasik" of the Hajj ( and state of 'ihram' as you call it ) require the whole 3 months to be completed.

We only need a few days (2-3) to complete the "manasik". This is why God says:

*æÃÐä Ýí ÇáäÇÓ ÈÇáÍÌ íÃÊæß ÑÌÇáÇ æÚáì ßá ÖÇãÑ íÃÊíä ãä ßá ÝÌ ÚãíÞ

* áíÔåÏæÇ ãäÝÚ áåã æíÐßÑæÇ ÇÓã Çááå Ýí ÃíÇã ãÚáæãÊ Úáì ãÇ ÑÒÞåã ãä ÈåíãÉ ÇáÃäÚã ÝßáæÇ ãäåÇ æÃØÚãæÇ ÇáÈÇÆÓ ÇáÝÞíÑ

* Ëã áíÞÖæÇ ÊÝËåã æáíæÝæÇ äÐæÑåã æáíØæÝæÇ ÈÇáÈíÊ ÇáÚÊíÞ

[22:27-29]

This is the way it was done since the time of Abraham. The "manasik" or "ihram" ( as you call it ) state requires only a few days.

Does it make sense that God would prohibit hunting ONLY during those 3 days?? As if anyone would even think of going out of his way to hunt, or suddenly making a trip to the Red Sea ( the nearest body of water ) - according to your logic - to catch some fish, since fishing is OK. It doesn't make any sense.

But having sex IS a possibilty, because there may be couples ( man and wife ) doing the Hajj together, and sleeping together at night. Also, "jidal" ( arguments) are a possibility, because many people will be in that one place at the same time.

Going back to [2:197], we can now inderstand what is meant by the phrase:

...

Ýãä ÝÑÖ Ýíåä ÇáÍÌ ÝáÇ ÑÝË æáÇ ÝÓæÞ æáÇ ÌÏÇá Ýí ÇáÍÌ....

The word "feehinna" refers to these few months.

I will give you an example on how it used to be done.

Mr X decides to go to Hajj, in the year 19XX, in the month of Dhulqida. ( He is free to chose any of the 3 months). He agrees with a group of friends, and they make schedule and plan to go and perform their manasik from the 15th to the 18th of Dhulqida.

However, it is conceivable that they arrive at their destination (The Sanctuary) before this time. (Example. on the 10th). This means that they have arrived 5 days before the date that they have set for themselves to perform their "manasik".

These five days are the period of UMRA for Mr.X and his friends.

Does this interpretation sound strange to you??

look at the following verse:

æÃÊãæÇ ÇáÍÌ æÇáÚãÑÉ ááå ÝÅä ÃÍÕÑÊã ÝãÇ ÇÓÊíÓÑ ãä ÇáåÏí æáÇ ÊÍáÞæÇ ÑÁæÓßã ÍÊì íÈáÛ ÇáåÏí ãÍáå Ýãä ßÇä ãäßã ãÑíÖÇ Ãæ Èå ÃÐì ãä ÑÃÓå ÝÝÏíÉ ãä ÕíÇã Ãæ ÕÏÞÉ Ãæ äÓß ÝÅÐÇ ÃãäÊã Ýãä ÊãÊÚ ÈÇáÚãÑÉ Åáì ÇáÍÌ ÝãÇ ÇÓÊíÓÑ ãä ÇáåÏí Ýãä áã íÌÏ ÝÕíÇã ËáËÉ ÃíÇã Ýí ÇáÍÌ æÓÈÚÉ ÅÐÇ ÑÌÚÊã Êáß ÚÔÑÉ ßÇãáÉ Ðáß áãä áã íßä Ãåáå ÍÇÖÑí ÇáãÓÌÏ ÇáÍÑÇã æÇÊÞæÇ Çááå æÇÚáãæÇ Ãä Çááå ÔÏíÏ ÇáÚÞÇÈ

[2:196]

Note the part in red: Ýãä ÊãÊÚ ÈÇáÚãÑÉ Åáì ÇáÍÌ

The word "Umra" actually means "to reside" in someplace for a fixed period of time.

So in the above verse, God is saying that whoever "enjoys" (ÊãÊÚ) the Umra ( temporary residence - until the days that he has set for himself to do the "manasik" have arrived ) has to offer a donation, or if he cannot, then he must fast a total of 10 days.

We can conlude that the Hajj was done in such a way that a certain group of people would come to that one place, gather for a few days, perform their manasik (STAND AT ARAFA) , then they would be gone, and make room for another group to come after them and so on and so forth, until the 3 months are spent.

NOWHERE in the Quran does it say that everyone must stand together on Arafa on the same day.

As for the word "UMRA" which is inacurately interpreted as "visit", it actually means the temporary stay in the viccinity of the Majsid al-Haram, for a fixed period of time, before doing the manasik. During the "Umra" period of Mr.X and his friends, there will be other people doing their actual "manasik".. And so as you can see, it is a cycle.

I hope I have made this clear.

Now the strange thing we see today: Lots of "manasik" that have not been mentioned in the Quran, and come from traditions.

1- Kissing the black stone ( IDOL WORSHIP AT ITS FINEST). And whoever points a Hadith that says the Prophet kissed the black stone is a LYING SATAN, even if he wears a turban and calls himself "SHEIKH". Because the Prophet NEVER kissed a black stone, and I dont care what Bukhary says.

2- Throwing stones at the pillar representing the "shaytan". This is also a traditional bidaa. It is not mentioned in the Quran, which tells us that the "manasik" have been the same sinse the time of Abraham.

3- Walking back and forth between the Safa and Marwa are not OBLIGATORY manasik, as is clearly stated in the following verse:

Åä ÇáÕÝÇ æÇáãÑæÉ ãä ÔÚÇÆÑ Çááå Ýãä ÍÌ ÇáÈíÊ Ãæ ÇÚÊãÑ ÝáÇ ÌäÇÍ Úáíå Ãä íØæÝ ÈåãÇ æãä ÊØæÚ ÎíÑÇ ÝÅä Çááå ÔÇßÑ Úáíã

{The Safa and Marwah are amongst God's symbols. So whosoever makes Pilgrimage to the Sanctuary, or is merely residing temporarily, commits no error that he should traverse within them. And whoever donates for goodness, then God is Appreciative, Knowledgeable}

[2:158]

The context clearly shows that they are not obligatory.

SO, as you can see, the UMRA actually means a temporary stay UNTIL the days that one has appointed for himself to perform the actual Hajj have arrived.

Sinse we follow different "ousoul" and sources for our beliefs, we can never agree on the meaning of "hajj".

The truth is that the Quran shows us, in detail, all the manasik of the Hajj. These manasik have been the same sinse the time of Abraham. But sometimes, humans like to add Satanic things ( like kissing the black stone) then invent Hadiths to claim that the Prophet Muhammed used to do it.

May I ask you again, how does what you said show that ihram means 4 months?

It doesn't. I was just showing you how your interpretation does not make sense.

ÇáÍÌ ÃÔåÑ ãÚáæãÊ Ýãä ÝÑÖ Ýíåä ÇáÍÌ ÝáÇ ÑÝË æáÇ ÝÓæÞ æáÇ ÌÏÇá Ýí ÇáÍÌ æãÇ ÊÝÚáæÇ ãä ÎíÑ íÚáãå Çááå æÊÒæÏæÇ ÝÅä ÎíÑ ÇáÒÇÏ ÇáÊÞæì æÇÊÞæä íÃæáí ÇáÃáÈÈ

[2:197]

No sex, no baseless argument, and no vileness during Hajj.

Does it say "No hunting"???

Of course it doesn't , because it doesn't make sense that a person who has come to the Sanctuary to do Hajj, would say: "Oh! let's all go off and hunt some wild deer!!" or, make a trip to the Red Sea ( nearest body of water ), while in his "ihram" dress, and go do some fishing!!

God calls the days of Hajj: THE DAYS OF HAJJ. HE does not call them "Days of Ihram".

I have yet to find in the Quran, a verse that says we must wear an "ihram dress" when doing the "manasik". All I could find were verses dealing with the cutting of hair, as a symbol of having completed the "manasik".

Finally, in chapter 9 of the Quran we can get a big clue that the 4 restricted months - during which fighting and hunting of wild game are prohibitted - actually come AFTER the season of the Hajj is over.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

_____

As brother Abdullah has pointed out, the Salmon have a mating season which totally slipped my mind. So why do land animals get preference over salmon?

Even if that's true, remember that salmon , ultimately, is a FISH.

FISH do not have long gestation periods

FISH do NOT carry their young live in their bellies.

FEMALE FISH lay hundreds if not thousands of eggs, and the males of the species fertilize them.

With land mamals (vertebrae) it's quite different.. Simple biology.

When you kill a female deer, or rabitt, for example, there is a chance that she is carrying a young one in her belly.

This is why all advanced and progressive nations place hunting restrictions during mating season. But since the muslim umma is still in the Dark Ages, the yhave forgotten about this.

God is giving us the license to eat ANY KIND of marine animal, without restrictions.

Who are we to place restrictions on ourselves? ( Perhaps we didn't learn the lessons from the Jews who did the same thing before us: They kept declaring that this and that are haram, and made things difficult on themselves ).

So even if you believe I am a kaffir, speak with kind words.

The phrase you quoted from me was actually not directed at you personally.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

______

Peace...

[Guest DjibrilCisse]

There are many points of discussion here, if I could just point out the one:

-Regarding hunting during pilgrimage, may I remind our respectful brother that back in the days there was no McDonalds in Mecca (as our bro Dhulfiqar reminded us today we have the privilege of being able to purchase the number 9 filet-o-fish meal, although I personally boycott McD's :lol: ) .

People used to hunt for their food. :)

[Ashvazdanghe]

Salam

Islamic Scholars’ Views on Seafood: Sunni vs. Shia Perspectives

Sunni Schools of Thought on Seafood

• Shafi’i, Hanbali, and Maliki Schools: These scholars consider all sea creatures halal, including fish, shellfish, and crustaceans.
• Hanafi School: This school only permits fish with scales, considering other seafood (such as shrimp, crabs, and lobsters) as makruh (disliked).

Shia Islam’s Stance on Seafood

• Shia scholars only allow fish with scales and require them to be alive when removed from water. Shellfish and other sea creatures are generally haram.

https://halalawareness.com/is-fish-halal/

[Abu Hassanain]

On 10/27/2025 at 2:37 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam

Islamic Scholars’ Views on Seafood: Sunni vs. Shia Perspectives

Sunni Schools of Thought on Seafood

• Shafi’i, Hanbali, and Maliki Schools: These scholars consider all sea creatures halal, including fish, shellfish, and crustaceans.
• Hanafi School: This school only permits fish with scales, considering other seafood (such as shrimp, crabs, and lobsters) as makruh (disliked).

Shia Islam’s Stance on Seafood

• Shia scholars only allow fish with scales and require them to be alive when removed from water. Shellfish and other sea creatures are generally haram.

https://halalawareness.com/is-fish-halal/

Salam

the late Sayyid Fadlallah Ra held a view similar to Sunni and currently Shaikh Ibrahim Jannati (Marja from Qum ) holds the same view.

however the Istambat and istadalil for this and the Dars Kharij discourse laying out the evidence’s pros and cons and debates are rather weak

There are numerous narrations attributed to the commander of the faithful and the infallible peace upon them, all particularly the famous narration of the river Euphrates the narration mentioning the fish with scales, gave salam the fish without did not this relates to why their series of narrations discussing those who agreed to divine obedience willingly, and those who agreed unwillingly

wallahu Alam 

[realizm]

On 11/13/2025 at 2:47 AM, Abu Hassanain said:

Salam

the late Sayyid Fadlallah Ra held a view similar to Sunni and currently Shaikh Ibrahim Jannati (Marja from Qum ) holds the same view.

however the Istambat and istadalil for this and the Dars Kharij discourse laying out the evidence’s pros and cons and debates are rather weak

There are numerous narrations attributed to the commander of the faithful and the infallible peace upon them, all particularly the famous narration of the river Euphrates the narration mentioning the fish with scales, gave salam the fish without did not this relates to why their series of narrations discussing those who agreed to divine obedience willingly, and those who agreed unwillingly

wallahu Alam 

I would rather say that the late Sayid Fadlallah (r) deemed the so called proofs as weak. He also warned about the issue of non-fish seafood being boiled to death, or sometimes eaten alive, thus not meeting the compulsory requirement that seafood must die of suffocation in order to be halal to consumption. 

So basically, he said that there was not a real proof that imami fiqh was so restrictive, but that we could not go eating any seafood because there are animals that cannot fall in the category of actual sea'food'. 

[Abu Hassanain]

7 hours ago, realizm said:

I would rather say that the late Sayid Fadlallah (r) deemed the so called proofs as weak. He also warned about the issue of non-fish seafood being boiled to death, or sometimes eaten alive, thus not meeting the compulsory requirement that seafood must die of suffocation in order to be halal to consumption. 

So basically, he said that there was not a real proof that imami fiqh was so restrictive, but that we could not go eating any seafood because there are animals that cannot fall in the category of actual sea'food'. 

Salam

It’s better to follow the stricter narrations on seafood our mentor the late Sayyid Khoy advocating, using the famous narrations, what was famous in our books and famous among the scholars, the narration about the river, whether some critique is having weakness is very famous and well known and should be relied upon

wallahu Alam