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In the Name of God بسم الله

What Is The Best Way To Convert A Sunni

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(salam)

Dear brothers and sisters, please note I am not making this poll to offense anybody. Since this is a Shia/ Sunni debate forum, I wanted to steal ideas from this who care enough to discuss the differences or issues between both sects. I started this poll due a recent accusation from one of my Sunni friends, that Shia, especially from Iran, are paying and enforcing shiasim onto people. This is because of an article on the Arabia site about new 8000 Shia converts in Sudan, and what is happening in Egypt as well. which is of course to true since I gave her list of famous converts such as Striving for Right Guidance by Sayyid Muhammad Tijani Smaoui andHow I Found the Right Path by Muhammad Yusuf ,,,,and many others who by coincidence tripped over a word or a sentence ,,hat made them question, that question lead to answers that had more questions,,,,,. This of course led to a serious Sunni /Shia debate with my friend. It was never my intention to convert her. But she decided that she wants to carry on the discussions to understand why Shia is so different?!!? I have been in so many Sunni/shia debates all FRIENDLY but never had the opportunity of someone saying lets discuss each issue until you convince me or I convince you.

Please, I am in no way trying to enforce my beliefs using this poll. No advice such as why waste your time, why bother, you will never succeed, ECT. Let us not forget that ( æÃãÇ ÈäÚãÉ ÑÈß ÝÍÏË ) æåí ãä ÃßÈÑ ÇáäÚã Ãæ åí ÇáäÚãÉ ÇáßÈÑì Ýí ÇáÏäíÇ æÝí ÇáÂÎÑÉ¡ æ «ÇáÓÇßÊ Úä ÇáÍÞ ÔíØÇä ÃÎÑÓ» «æáíÓ ÈÚÏ ÇáÍÞ» ÅáÇ «ÇáÖáÇá».:

"Talk about the graces of your Lord", and it is one of the greatest graces, or indeed, it is the greatest grace in this world and the life hereafter, and "he who keeps silent about the truth is a dumb devil" and "after the truth there is nothing to go astray "

Any ideas you give will be put into serious consideration and applied to full benefit. :angel:

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Salaam

Good answer from syed shia.

I would also recommend that you advise your friends to read the Nahjul Balagha, as it will show clearly how Imam Ali (a.s) highly praises Allah (swt) and how you should remember our sublime lord, also how Imam Ali (a.s) regarded their cousin the Holy Prohet (saw).

I think that if people cannot see the truth in this then they are just ignorant to the truth.

Another thing that i have used that finally showed one of my friends the correct path (originally a wahhabi), and got another friend of mine thinking (currently sunni) is the family tree of the Quraish Tribe. (see link)

http://www.al-imam.net/familytree.htm

(if you know how some of the people on the tree acted towards the AHLULBAYT explain your answers to your friends)

After analyzing this family tree i argue that if you want to know something/learn about somebody and how they live, when they pass away, who do u go and see?

Answer: their family. (they should give you this answer themselves, hopefully)

Then ask your friends apply the same situation in terms of our Holy Prophet (saw). Also ask how can you deny then the pure blood line their right.

Hopefully this should then put doubts into your freinds minds of their thoughts, so your half way there, inshallah.

This has worked for me, and hope it can work for you.

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^ I think there's a flaw in how you argue about the bloodline. It is irrefutable that there are blessed members in the bloodline from Prophet Ibrahim (as) which followed down to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and according to shias and some sunnis carries down through Muhammad's (pbuh) progeny. However, it is not the bloodline itself that is blessed, and there are plenty in even Muhammad's (pbuh) family who were among the unjust (Abu Sufyan (LA) comes immediately to mind, as well as Abu Lahab (LA), thus he was cousin of Muawiya (LA) and other enemies of Islam and Ahlul Bayt (as)). Allah (SWT) says in Qur'an, in repsonse to Ibrahim's (as) prayer for Allah's (SWT) blessing to carry on through his lineage, that the blessing will NOT reach the unjust (i.e. yes, the blessing will pass through Ibrahim's lineage, but ONLY to chosen members, not to ALL members). Same with Prophet Muhammad's (as) progeny. Not ALL descendants are imams (as) or masumeen (as) or elevated in status even. Only those who are chosen by Allah (SWT) are those we consider masoom and those who are elevated in status from among the lineage of the Prophet (pbuh) other than Bibi Fatima (as) and the 12 Imams (as) are those who were exemplary in their piety and submission to Allah (SWT)

Edited by Aliya
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Thanks for that info Aliya

i undertsand what you have said and appreciate your reply and you are rite in what u say.

The point i try to make my friends when i debate with them is of the 12 imams form Imam Ali (a.s) through to Imam Mehdi (a.s) to try and keep it basic so they understand. It has worked so far.

Going deeper into the topic with my friends will come with time when they start to understand why i follow this path.

I was just trying to give Karbala a startin point.[/color]

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thank you for you replies, I do find them very helpfull. I tried to simple discussions such as Imam Mahdi but her question was were in Koran did Allah name the 12 imams? I tried explaing about them ...but we just hit a brick wall,,,,tell me if I am wrong how can I as a muslim shia,,convince a Muslim sunni of anything iof Ahel el biet if they our brothers and sisters DO not belive in their Issma ( can never commit any wrong),,and how do I convince them of 12 imams issmaa,,if we disagreed on the major one,,,,,,,,,,the Profet's issma...so here I add a quesion to all sunni's PLEASE DEFINE ISSMAA TO ME ? and how does it apply to the profet and we take it from there.

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The 12 Imans are not mentioned in the Quran, but im certain the Prophet (saw) did mention in a hadith that 12 Imans from his progeny will rule over the Ummah and that the last member of his progeny will be Imam Mahdi (a.s).

I will try to find which hadith it is from for you, but if there is any futher experinced members than me out there who do kno and read this thread i hope you can tell me and bro karbala which hadith this is in.

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thank you for you replies, I do find them very helpfull. I tried to simple discussions such as Imam Mahdi but her question was were in Koran did Allah name the 12 imams? I tried explaing about them ...but we just hit a brick wall,,,,tell me if I am wrong how can I as a muslim shia,,convince a Muslim sunni of anything iof Ahel el biet if they our brothers and sisters DO not belive in their Issma ( can never commit any wrong),,and how do I convince them of 12 imams issmaa,,if we disagreed on the major one,,,,,,,,,,the Profet's issma...so here I add a quesion to all sunni's PLEASE DEFINE ISSMAA TO ME ? and how does it apply to the profet and we take it from there.

Ask them if Prophet(saww) didn't appoint a leader.. and if Allah(swt) didn't command the muslims to appoint a leader.. then why did the people appoint a leader?

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I did ask her why did the profet (saaw) gather over 150-200k muslims day of ghadeer ( oh and I would like to eid moubarak to everyone here the day of GHadeer that just past ),,,and hold Ali's Hand ,,,but she said he did not say My Khalifa,,he said Wali ( man WAlani wala ALi) ,,,then she said he Asked Abu baker to pray Imam for the muslims ,,not ALi (saa) ,,,,,,,,,,,see I tried that line ,,,their famous boukhari does not have khalifa,,I wonder how the transalate MOUWALAh,,she siad it meant not to upset them,,,then they were upset,,I told her they upset FAtimah ( saa) she said yes,,but Fatima was not a Masoumah ( meaning she is liable to make mistakes andget upset ) its kufur for anybody but the profet to be Masoums,,so I ask anybody with experiece,,,or any sunni here to Define who sunni view the profet not making any mistakes,,,is saying his family are masoummen puting making them profets?

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Bro Karbala

look at my signature below and there is the revaltion to the Prophet (saw) as it happened word for word. Quoted from the Quran with reference.

Then read how the Holy Prophet (saw) replied to this revelation. Finally ending in another reference from the Quran.

Now ask your friend if they follow the Holy Prophets (saw) teachings word for word, is this something that they made up. why not accept Mawla Ali (a.s) as the choosen successor. Obviously The Holy Prophet would not make a mistake when giving his response to a revealtion.

The first person to greet Mawla Ali (a.s) after this revelation was Umar who shook Mawla Ali (a.s) hand and said you are the choosen leader of the people, yet he still went against what was revealed.

Your friend is typical in thought as a sunni and how they interperate events which have taken place

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Many old Ahlulsunnah scholars do follow the correct way of IMAM ALI (A.S), something which i have read, but it is unfortunate that the younger sunni generation of today now say that these scholars have lost their minds.

Maybe the truth is that todays generation of sunnis are the ones that have lost thier ways.[/color]

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Many old Ahlulsunnah scholars do follow the correct way of IMAM ALI (A.S), something which i have read, but it is unfortunate that the younger sunni generation of today now say that these scholars have lost their minds.

Maybe the truth is that todays generation of sunnis are the ones that have lost thier ways.[/color]

that is very true ....but what is also to be noted is that earlier shias were more objective in their criticism of the first 2 caliphs

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i think that if we follow imam Ali the way his sincere followers did then pious amongst the sunnis will automatically turn towards us

Dear fellow muslim ,,you know as everybody here know that muslims are vary in belifes and practices,,,no doubt every true beliver sunni, shia,,soufi,,zaid,,try his or her best to be perfect...we love our Imam Ali becuase of Our how much our profet loved him,,and how imam ali (saa), never hesitated to pledge his life to him.. its how all Ahel el Bieet (saa) were,,,we try as best as we can and there are those who succeed in giving such a good image that people are converting just becuase of hearing them talk of their dedication. And I do not know about you but if you go search all the forums,,surf the internet as I did and see how sunni respond and how shia talk ,,,we never have to destorte ,,,we may mock ,,but never create lie's like they did;;;I actualy can send you into a sunni form site where your blood pressure will shoot to mars,,because one of them actaully dared go into sayeed sistani site download a picture and make it in a way that makes him holding a cigarette,,i downloaded both pictures the real one and the fake one and complained o the site controler,,,last week,,,,,pic still there,,,no answer to may mail,,,another pics with one of our highly easteemed maraje3 sitting beside a romanian christian,,the pic has 2 diff shades,,koran wrting over our marje3 ysteriously disapppears when you look over thehead of his companion,,,,I do not want to say all shia are angels,,but when we argee,,we are fair,,,( bec we are right :angel: ) when they argue,,,and that is why I needed feedback ,,they jump around from one point to another never letting us settle on 1 opinion..yeah we all try to follow Imam Ali as best as we can ,,but for them to turn to us,,they have to actually have their eyes open :unsure:

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(salam)

It is not easy to convert someone. Infact, our aim should not be to convert Sunnis but to teach them about the ahlul bayt. Tell them what we have to offer. And when we are disccussing our faith, it's best if we start from the Sunnis Sittah(Books).

Dear ZAreen , as i said it was never my intention to convert,,unless I see a sunni with lots of questions and willing to listen to answers (rare) what have we to offer? they think our faith is shurk bec we made imam ali masoum (sinless ) we do mout3a ( sin),,we pray on hussain (saa) rocks,,,and oh the greatest sin of all we say (as) to ahel el biet,,,shirk shirk,,,and for your info,,,sunni sittah ,,if you do not hurry each edition is different than the one before,,hadith seems to be mising or words suddenly change meaning and the way originaly written,,,you wonder?

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The 12 Imans are not mentioned in the Quran, but im certain the Prophet (saw) did mention in a hadith that 12 Imans from his progeny will rule over the Ummah and that the last member of his progeny will be Imam Mahdi (a.s).

I will try to find which hadith it is from for you, but if there is any futher experinced members than me out there who do kno and read this thread i hope you can tell me and bro karbala which hadith this is in.

The problem with what you say is that the Imams (as), apart from Ali (as), DID NOT rule over the Ummah, not even in the spiritual sense. They (as) all lived in times where there were rulers ruling over the Ummah. And this, despite the fact that the Imams (as), and we all agree on this, were the most knowledgeable, the most pious, the most trustworthy of their time.

Also, the hadith of the Prophet (as) you are referring to comes in different narrations, but on the whole it talks of 12 "Caliphs" being all from Quoraish. It does not mention specifically Banu Hashem but Quoraish in the broader sense. Also, and it is important to state that the narrations do not talk that these Caliphs will all be just, fair etc.

There another hadith, however, which is more specific when it talks about the first four Caliphs and describes them as "Rightly Guided Caliphs".

Sunnis, and rightly so, refer to the fact that Ali (ra) made Bay'aa to the first three Caliphs as is well documents by both groups. As well as to Hassan (ra) making Sulh and Bay'aa to Muawiya. So, I am not sure your argument stand the test.

I know this is a complex subject and hundreds and hundreds of scholars have written about it, may be from their own perspective. For those interested, they really need to read thoroughly both arguments and judge. On this subject, it is also worth investigating whether the Imamate is really a PILLAR of Islam as Shias say. Because, there is big disagreemet here too, as the Sunnis have their own Hadiths stating that it is not!

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think that if we follow imam Ali the way his sincere followers did then pious amongst the sunnis will automatically turn towards us

I agree TOTALLY.

The first few times i came on shiachat a few years ago... i was surprised and kind of angered at the shias in the forum calling sunnis kaafir, and la'naties, , and oomed for fire, and la'nat on this sahabi that... and i moved away from shiaism then.

So I think the way we present teh deen should be very kind and gentle way, like the ProphetÕáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå

Edited by muhammad_follower
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i think that if we follow imam Ali the way his sincere followers did then pious amongst the sunnis will automatically turn towards us

Trust me that if you SINCERELY do that, you will become a "Sunni"! Honest. [meaning, if people do go back to the original teachings... then, yes, we will be just one, just like at the time of the Prophet (pbuh). Your statement above DOES IMPLY that Shia (some? most?) are not following Ali (ra) the way his sincere followers did. May be I am stretching it?

Ali (ra) followed exactly what Umar (ra), Abu Bakr (ra) and the Sahaba of the time were following... the Prophet (pbuh). They had some differences, but overall and by in large, they were drinking from the same source, so they could not be that different.

I have to remind people that Ali (ra) appointed Muhammed Bin Abu Bakr (ra) as his deputy in Egypt. Ad who brought up Muhammed Bin Abu Bakr and gave him the understanding of Deen? It was his father, Abu Bakr (ra). If he was that different, Ali (ra) would not have appointed him.

The Prophet (pbuh) married the daughter of Abu Bakr (ra), and Ali (ra) married the wife of Abu Bakr (ra) after his death... which proves that Abu Bakr (ra) and his household were held in high esteem by the Prophet (pbuh) and his progeny (as).

We need to take a step back and re-read history and learn something VERY USEFUL from it: the early Sahaba, despite their differences, they still loved and respected one another, and had close associations together. Why would Umar (ra) turn to Ali (ra) for consultation and take his advice, and why would Ali (ra) offer sincere honest advice, if there was animosity, friction or lack of trust between them?

People need to learn thinking FOR THEMSELVES and ask themselves some real hard questions. In the last 1400 years, there has been layer upon layer of mistrust. Hard work needs to be done to undo them, possibly one by one. Can it be done? I don't know. Inshallah.

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Trust me that if you SINCERELY do that, you will become a "Sunni"! Honest. [meaning, if people do go back to the original teachings... then, yes, we will be just one, just like at the time of the Prophet (pbuh). Your statement above DOES IMPLY that Shia (some? most?) are not following Ali (ra) the way his sincere followers did. May be I am stretching it?

(salam)

I would not to be worried about Panzerwaffe being shia or Sunni. If we go really back to history we were simply called Muslims.

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(salam)

Dear brothers and sisters, please note I am not making this poll to offense anybody. Since this is a Shia/ Sunni debate forum, I wanted to steal ideas from this who care enough to discuss the differences or issues between both sects. I started this poll due a recent accusation from one of my Sunni friends, that Shia, especially from Iran, are paying and enforcing shiasim onto people. This is because of an article on the Arabia site about new 8000 Shia converts in Sudan, and what is happening in Egypt as well. which is of course to true since I gave her list of famous converts such as Striving for Right Guidance by Sayyid Muhammad Tijani Smaoui andHow I Found the Right Path by Muhammad Yusuf ,,,,and many others who by coincidence tripped over a word or a sentence ,,hat made them question, that question lead to answers that had more questions,,,,,. This of course led to a serious Sunni /Shia debate with my friend. It was never my intention to convert her. But she decided that she wants to carry on the discussions to understand why Shia is so different?!!? I have been in so many Sunni/shia debates all FRIENDLY but never had the opportunity of someone saying lets discuss each issue until you convince me or I convince you.

Please, I am in no way trying to enforce my beliefs using this poll. No advice such as why waste your time, why bother, you will never succeed, ECT. Let us not forget that ( وأما بنعمة ربك فحدث ) وهي من أكبر النعم أو هي النعمة الكبرى في الدنيا وفي الآخرة، و «الساكت عن الحق شيطان أخرس» «وليس بعد الحق» إلا «الضلال».:

"Talk about the graces of your Lord", and it is one of the greatest graces, or indeed, it is the greatest grace in this world and the life hereafter, and "he who keeps silent about the truth is a dumb devil" and "after the truth there is nothing to go astray "

Any ideas you give will be put into serious consideration and applied to full benefit.

:angel:

You have come up with a very good question, honestly i had the same question in my mind but i was hesitating to ask!

I too want to know it !

Edited by syeda4ever
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Omar, you are mistaken about Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr (ra) he was brought up in the house of Imam Ali (as) after Imam Ali (as) married the widow of Abu Bakr.

Also, on the marriage issue, Prophet (pbuh) married from the families of the enemies of Islam, does that mean their families are held in high regard? Instead, many of Prophet's (pbuh) marriages were political in nature, and you'll note, if you look at the backgrounds of most of his wives, they come from different tribes and marriage with them was meant to create bonds between the different tribes, create peace with those tribes (which didn't always work), and draw members of those tribes into Islam (again which didn't always work).

You need to also be aware that as a requirement of this forum, that has changed since you were last here, that you need to bring PROOF of your claims. I would advise against making ANY claims you cannot back up with proof, even if you personally believe them to be 100% true.

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didn't say it didn't make him Abu Bakr's son. Was correcting this part of Omar's post

Ad who brought up Muhammed Bin Abu Bakr and gave him the understanding of Deen? It was his father, Abu Bakr . If he was that different, Ali would not have appointed him.

Abu Bakr passed away when Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr was quite young (3 years old or so). there is no doubt that his formative, especially in regards to his religious training, came from his time with Imam Ali (as)

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The Prophet (pbuh) married the daughter of Abu Bakr (ra), and Ali (ra) married the wife of Abu Bakr (ra) after his death... which proves that Abu Bakr (ra) and his household were held in high esteem by the Prophet (pbuh) and his progeny (as).

Obviuosly we can see here that THE HOLY PROPHET (SAW) and his progeny held Abu Bakrs family in high esteem, as we all know THE HOLY PROPHET (SAW) and his progeny treated evrybody fairly.

What happened when when Abu Bakr took MAWLA ALI (A.S) right away from Caliphat and when Aisha his daughter declared war on MAWLA ALI (A.S). Why was respect then not given to the AHLULBAYT?

Did Abu bakr and his family forget to show respect?

People need to learn thinking FOR THEMSELVES and ask themselves some real hard questions. In the last 1400 years, there has been layer upon layer of mistrust. Hard work needs to be done to undo them, possibly one by one. Can it be done? I don't know. Inshallah.

Then i guess your right when u make i comment like this. omarkhazim.

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He fought with iman Ali(ra0 and was killed by people in Muawiya camp. That doesn't answer question sunni position is that Iman ali(ra) was good to Abu Bakr(ra) because they both got along shia say they didn't so what you are saying is he raised son of man he like to turn him against his own father .

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If Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr (ra) fought against his own sister because she was WRONG and fighting against the truth (remember Ali (as) is with the truth and the truth is with Ali (as)), whose to say WHAT his position would be toward his father. Of course, whose to say that Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr (ra) would've been the admirable man he was if he'd been raised by Abu Bakr.

The arguments based on Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr (ra) being a good man based on his relationship to Abu Bakr is not an argument at all. We see relatives of evil people being good (Muawiya II ibn Yazeed is one example) and we see relatives of good people being bad (Abu Lahab (LA) was an uncle of the Prophet (pbuh) but a big enemy of Prophet (pbuh) and Islam). So relation doesn't make or break a deal, rather it is the character and piety of the person on their OWN MERIT.

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do you think Ali (as) would not teach the TRUTH to even the son of Abu Bakr? Do you think prophet (pbuh) didn't tell the truth of their families' errors to his wives that came from the families of his enemies? there is, of course, tactful says of doing it, but it does not mean ignoring or denying the truth, even to those who were born and raised in the families of the enemies of Islam. In fact, we see the example of Umm Habiba who did not allow her own father (Abu Sufyan (LA)) to sit on the bedding of the Prophet (pbuh) and told it it was because he was an idolator and therefore unclean. This was her own father... and you doubt that even the son of Abu Bakr would not be taught the truth about the transgressions of his father... he did side against his own sister in her transgression, after all.

the crux of the matter remains, that so many sunnis think telling the truth about caliphs and sahabi is equivalent to speaking ill (as if it's just making things up, or doing it to create animosity). Whereas shias see it as one way of enjoining good and forbidding evil. the more educated you are with right and wrong, the more examples you see and hear of that show distinguishing right and wrong, the better a Muslim one can be.

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No I told what sunni believe that his father was his friend and friend of Prophet(pbuh) . I just find it odd that shia believe he married Abu bakr (ra) wife for alliance reason and told a 3 yr that his father a was not a believer. The people who joined Prophet(pbuh) were adults .

Edited by jalal27
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I just find it odd that shia believe he married Abu bakr (ra) wife for alliance reason and told a 3 yr that his father a was not a believer. The people who joined Prophet(pbuh) were adults .

Bro Jalal

Is it possible that you can show proof of what you are saying here please....

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