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In the Name of God بسم الله

Questions To The Ahle Sunnah

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:salam:

I have got a question for the sunnis.

All muslims follow and accept muhammad (saw) as the final messenger

But after the holy prophet (saw) theres disagreement regarding his successorship

So i would like to ask the following questions:

1) Is it Obligitory to accept and follow abu bakr (ra), umar ibn Khatab (ra) and uthman ibn Affan (ra)?

2) Would a person be classed a muslim (according to sunni standard) if he didnt follow and accept the first three caliphs

3) Is it theoretically allowed for a person to make their own list of rightly guided caliphs, as to who they think are right.

4) Would you still class a person a muslim when he rejects their caliphate based on how ''evil'' they were.

and also

5) why is it, that after 124000 prophets and sucessors who all have been divine leaders and choosen by Allah swt. Why is it that the sunni caliphs are chosen by people?

6) also can you quote an example of the system of (sunni) caliphate from the quran? or examples from previous prophets?

Jazakallah khair.

plz answer the questions here.

:)

w.salaam

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A Sunni wrote once a articel about rejecting Imamat of Sahaba, here some quotes:

It is said by Shaykh Barjandi in Sharah Niqaayah: "He who refuses to accept the Imamah of Hadrat Abu Bakr as-Siddiq RaDiyallahu 'Anhu is a Kafir. Some opine that he is a Mubtadiy (a heretic) and not a Kafir but the truth of the matter is (As-SaH) that he is a Kafir. And so also is the case of he who refuses to accept the Khilafah of Hadrat Umar RaDiyallahu 'Anhu. And this is the most correct ruling."

It is stated in Bahr ar-Raayiq (page.131) : "It is the most correct ruling (in this matter; As-SaH) that it is KUFR to refuse to accept/deny the Imamah of Hadrat Abu Bakr RaDiyallahu 'Anhu and so also is the case in the refusal (of the Khilafah) of Hadrat Umar RaDiyallahu 'Anhu"

It is stated in Majma' al-Anhur: "The RafiDi if he just holds Hadrat Ali RaDiyallahu 'Anhu superior to Hadrat Abu Bakr (FaDDala) RaDiyallahu 'Anhu, he is a heretic; and if he denies / refuses the Khilafah of Hadrat Siddiq RaDiyallahu 'Anhu, he is a Kafir"

Edited by Sayyed Ali
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A Sunni wrote once a articel about rejecting Imamat of Sahaba, here some quotes:
It is said by Shaykh Barjandi in Sharah Niqaayah: "He who refuses to accept the Imamah of Hadrat Abu Bakr as-Siddiq RaDiyallahu 'Anhu is a Kafir. Some opine that he is a Mubtadiy (a heretic) and not a Kafir but the truth of the matter is (As-SaH) that he is a Kafir. And so also is the case of he who refuses to accept the Khilafah of Hadrat Umar RaDiyallahu 'Anhu. And this is the most correct ruling."

It is stated in Bahr ar-Raayiq (page.131) : "It is the most correct ruling (in this matter; As-SaH) that it is KUFR to refuse to accept/deny the Imamah of Hadrat Abu Bakr RaDiyallahu 'Anhu and so also is the case in the refusal (of the Khilafah) of Hadrat Umar RaDiyallahu 'Anhu"

It is stated in Majma' al-Anhur: "The RafiDi if he just holds Hadrat Ali RaDiyallahu 'Anhu superior to Hadrat Abu Bakr (FaDDala) RaDiyallahu 'Anhu, he is a heretic; and if he denies / refuses the Khilafah of Hadrat Siddiq RaDiyallahu 'Anhu, he is a Kafir"

Its true bro Ali.. but not all that a sunni aalim say is followed by sunnis.. so its better not to generalize.. there are vast differences of opinions in different schools of thought :)

I would very much like to see what led this aalim to believe that denying the first three is an act of kufr.. wassalaamun alaikum

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1) Is it Obligitory to accept and follow abu bakr (ra), umar ibn Khatab (ra) and uthman ibn Affan (ra)?

2) Would a person be classed a muslim (according to sunni standard) if he didnt follow and accept the first three caliphs

4) Would you still class a person a muslim when he rejects their caliphate based on how ''evil'' they were.

:salam:

The simplest way to look at question 1), 2) and 3) is to look at example set by Ayesha (who is an important personality in Sunnisme).

She rejected i) Uthman Al Affan because she consider Uthman 4) an unbeliever (Nathal).

So I dont see how 2) is tied to being a muslim because Sunni accept Ayesha as a Muslim.

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:salam:

The simplest way to look at question 1), 2) and 3) is to look at example set by Ayesha (who is an important personality in Sunnisme).

She rejected i) Uthman Al Affan because she consider Uthman 4) an unbeliever (Nathal).

So I dont see how 2) is tied to being a muslim because Sunni accept Ayesha as a Muslim.

A very good point sister Zareen. Jazak Allah.

Moreover, Sa'ad bin Abadah never accepted the Caliphate of Abu Bakr. Now none of Sahaba considered him Kafir for that (not even Nasibies till today), but when it comes to us then rejecting Abu Bakr becomes automatically Kufr.

If only oath of allegiance of Ummah is the valid reason, then Ummah also gave oath of allegiance to all Drunken Caliphs of Bani Ummiyyah too.

Any how, we could go further only when first of all Sunnies have issued Fatwa of Shirk upon Sahabi Sa'ad bin Ubaidah.

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Ive had discussions with some sunnis...they claim by not accepting the Khaliphs we automatically become ignorant of the SUNNAH of the Rasullullah. What they are suggesting is that the SUnnah is only evident amongst the first 3 Khaliphs which itself is an ignorant argument.

First of all Quran and Hadith Proves the position of the AHLUL BAYT in matters of Sunnah and Interpretation. Secondly, there were thousands of Sahabas, good and bad....why do our Sunni brothers and Sisters relate the chain of Sunnatic traditions only to the first 3 Khaliphs....where does it say in Quran or hadith that the people you elect or have them appoint their leaders become the best successors in propogating Sunnah. Im sorry to say the Sunni prespective is rather too limited in support of their Aqeedah, the in-depth studies are also limited to "Preference" and their sense of logic is disguised and misguided through elevating themselves beyond others with signs of little rational.

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1) Is it Obligitory to accept and follow abu bakr (ra), umar ibn Khatab (ra) and uthman ibn Affan (ra)?

Yes. It was based on the concensus of the Muslims, and the concensus is considered decisive evidence. The Prophet (saw) told us to stick with the main body of Muslims and that the majority will never err.

By the way Aishah ra did not deny Uthman's caliphate. In fact she fought (wrongly) to save his face. The "nathal" narration is fake, but of course shiites will grasp at straw to "prove" their faith.

2) Would a person be classed a muslim (according to sunni standard) if he didnt follow and accept the first three caliphs

There is a difference of opinion in this between the jurists and the theologeans. According to the jursits they are not Muslim; Imam Malik used 48:29 as proof which says it is the kuffar that are angered by the Sahabah - therefore those who reject their concensus are kafir. The theologeans disagree, as rejecting their caliphate is not leaving a fundamental of the religion - but the jurists consider this to have become a fundamental.

Denying their caliphate is most definitely fisq (open transgression) and according to the majority kufr (disbelief).

3) Is it theoretically allowed for a person to make their own list of rightly guided caliphs, as to who they think are right.

It is a condition that the Muslims agree to the caliphate. This is why Hussain ra was justified in opposing Yazid, as Yazid was not agreed to be the ruler by all, so he was not technically the caliph.

4) Would you still class a person a muslim when he rejects their caliphate based on how ''evil'' they were.

All the caliphs were pious individuals. There is no evidence of material purposes in the caliphate. They were not evil, but the best of people after the prophets. Their evilness is just a shiite fantasy.

5) why is it, that after 124000 prophets and sucessors who all have been divine leaders and choosen by Allah swt. Why is it that the sunni caliphs are chosen by people?

Allah chose the first four caliphs through the concensus of the Muslims, just as the Prophets appointed leaders (therefore Allah chose those leaders through the Prophets). Therefore they were appointed by Allah, although not directly.

You asked for the Sunni view. Now that you got it, there's no point refuting it using "shiite manipulations".

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You asked for the Sunni view. Now that you got it, there's no point refuting it using "shiite manipulations".

First of all discussion is all about inviting Questions in order we can establish truth. You are already closing the contents of this thread by stating that there is no point in continuing with a formal dialogue.

Secondly, this is not the sunni View. This is your view. Many sunnies would differ with you. Afterall the 4 Imams of the Sunnis also differ in opinion.

Its funny when we shias state arguments from Quran and Hadith with references and Tafsir from your scholars with all necessary sources/reference; you still have the fanatical and extreme view that what we provide you is false and manipulative. FUNNY GUY!

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Why, and please answer from Quran or hadith, is rejecting the first 3 considered fisq?

Please don't run away from this debate mr learner.

-

rahat

Rejecting the three is fisq or kufr because it is rejecting the concensus of the Muslims, and the Qur'an and Sunnah shows that we have to follow the majority of Muslims (but of course you won't accept the proofs).

For proofs of following and sticking with the majority of the Muslims (of all eras after the Prophet (saw)) see: http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/ahl-sunna.html

Now, why is rejecting Imamah kufr? We base our opinion on the priciple of ijma'. We don't say that rejecting Abu Bakr ra, Umar ra, and Uthman ra, is in and of itself kufr or fisq, but by rejecting them the Qur'anic guideline of ijma' is not followed, and therefore this is kufr or fisq. You, on the other hand, have no evidence, neither from the Qur'an nor the Sunnah. The AA article about Imamah contains no satisfactory evidence for Imamah; it is merely conjecture, to support an idealistic non-existent system of leadership.

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Secondly, this is not the sunni View. This is your view. Many sunnies would differ with you. Afterall the 4 Imams of the Sunnis also differ in opinion.

No, this is the view of the Sunni scholars. I have highlighted any differences of opinon that exist in my answer.

Its funny when we shias state arguments from Quran and Hadith with references and Tafsir from your scholars with all necessary sources/reference; you still have the fanatical and extreme view that what we provide you is false and manipulative. FUNNY GUY!

The "references" cited are one-sided, mistranslated, distored writings, which shows a clear bias and total reliance on the shiite manipulations of Sunni texts.

Edited by learner
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^^^^^

Actually the Quran so many times SAYS The MOST are wrong!!

Also the Prophet left

Sahih Muslim Book 031, Number 5920:

Zaid b. Arqam: One day Allah's Messenger pbuh stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah's call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you by Allah to the members of my family (ahlulbait) , I remind you by Allah to the members of my family (ahlulbait) , I remind you by Allah to the members of my family (ahlulbait)

The prophet told us to follow the Ahululbayt and the Quran so this is what the Shia Done

If we FOLLOWED the MAJORITY then we will be SAYING RADTHIA Allah on people who killed AHULULBAYT

Which has NO LOGIC "may Allah be pleased with the AHULULBAYT and there KILLERS"??

Muwiya??

Omer (killer of al zahra)??

Yazeed??

AND THE NEW ONE ADDED

Saddam??!!??!!

Edited by ahmadlazio
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WAH... Questions by Shias and Asnwers by shias lol....

The last person who ahamdzalo... you gave a hadeeth can you please provide the SANAD whcih has to be SAHEEH... and can you tell me how many SAHABS narrated that Quran and Ahlul Bait had to be followed and how many narrated Quran and Sunnah had to be followed... and then INSHALLAH i will answer you...

The questions asked INSHALLAH i can answer but as so many brothers have joined here in the discussion i dont want to answer as if one brothers asks me and him can hold dislouge INSHALLAH....

We can hold dialouge on Caliphate of Hazrat Abu Bakar rda and why we SUNNIS believes it is correct and should be accepted as Hazrat Ali rda accepted it... we can discuss but i would like to remind that only one brother can ask me one question at a time and will get answer as a Dialouge is held between two people not one SUNNI and 10 SHIAS as this will cause confusion...

and this is dialouge if their are questions that cant be answered it is only due to lack of knowledge as we are not ALIMS here...

So if any questions regarding SUNNIS apart from already asked (silly ones)please ask one by one or have one speciifc chapter to hold discussion on...

and THIS IS NOT A DEBATE it is a dialouge DEBATES Have speicific rules that need to be followed and we here dont have enough ILM...

TC

Edited by HAQ4YAAR
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It is pathetic that so many ignore the Quran when it speaks about the importance of Ahlebaith (as) as the best source of guidance.

When it comes to hadith, when Shias quote hadiths which shows the importance of Ahlebaith (as) or flaws of the first three caliphs be it from the Sahih or other Sunni Books, they all are deemed weak by some. It is considered as if the Shias have written such hadiths in the Sunni books.

One such Sahih hadith which says that Hadrath Ali (as) is the immediate successor of Imam Ali (as) to the Prophet (pbuh) is

Sahih Muslim

Book 031, Number 5916:

Sa'd reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying to 'Ali: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses?

Was Aaron not the immediate successor to Moses?

Still why do people do not believe in Imam Ali (as) as the immediate successor of Prophet (pbuh)?

What has happened to reasoning? Does the Quran not say

Surely the worst of animals in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb who do not use their brains. (Quran 8:22)

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Mehek... easy chill out gettinf rustrated quite quick...

From the HADEETH you rpovided can you please provide where Prophet Mohammed swas said that you lead after me...and the hadeeths mentions Aaron and Moses who were they? Prophets, Sahabas can you tell me please.....

And regarding Hazrat Abu Bakr rda... i will prove from SHia books what Hazrat Abu Bakar rda status is but like it said ask me question and hold one on one discussion and INSHALLAH will provide sources from Shias books if i have them

JAZAKALLAH

and May Allah Bless Mohammed (a.s) and his progeny(a.s) and curse their enemies who claim to be their lovers of Ahlul Bait. AAMEEN

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^^^^^^

Mehek

Very TRUE

I was hearing a Question and Answer from a WAhabi/Salafi scholer he was ASKED What proof do you have that Muahmmed is the best of Creation He said WE dont have any but we assume this

When it CAME TO UTHMAN!! he couldnt STOP TALKING about him??

It is true You favuor the 3 over the PROPHET

BIGGEST PROOF

Is that you Turn the EARTH and the SKY when we say that it was UTHMAAN in surat ABASA in the first verses but when you say ITS MUHAMMED you say Yeah it IS??

Edited by ahmadlazio
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Jazakallah for the reply

QUOTE(syed_shia @ Dec 30 2006, 07:16 PM)

5) why is it, that after 124000 prophets and sucessors who all have been divine leaders and choosen by Allah swt. Why is it that the sunni caliphs are chosen by people?

Allah chose the first four caliphs through the concensus of the Muslims, just as the Prophets appointed leaders (therefore Allah chose those leaders through the Prophets). Therefore they were appointed by Allah, although not directly.

You asked for the Sunni view. Now that you got it, there's no point refuting it using "shiite manipulations".

Could you elaborate on this please?

Are you saying Prophets successors were choosen through consensus of the muslims?

and/or are you saying that prophets sucessors were chosen by his previous prophet with permission of Allah swt?

Them two look very different from eachother, so would like to have an explanation, sure Allah swt knows best.

jazakallah khair

w.salaam

p.s

The AA article about Imamah contains no satisfactory evidence for Imamah; it is merely conjecture, to support an idealistic non-existent system of leadership.

The AA is site is site aimed to answer sunni false claims with their own sources, not with shia sources.

If you want to know about shia sources on IMAMAT then its best to read Hayat al Qulub volume 3, or kitab al irshad by sheik al mufid. These two books contain hadith on imamat.

Edited by syed_shia
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Mehek... easy chill out gettinf rustrated quite quick...

From the HADEETH you rpovided can you please provide where Prophet Mohammed swas said that you lead after me...and the hadeeths mentions Aaron and Moses who were they? Prophets, Sahabas can you tell me please.....

And regarding Hazrat Abu Bakr rda... i will prove from SHia books what Hazrat Abu Bakar rda status is but like it said ask me question and hold one on one discussion and INSHALLAH will provide sources from Shias books if i have them

JAZAKALLAH

and May Allah Bless Mohammed (a.s) and his progeny(a.s) and curse their enemies who claim to be their lovers of Ahlul Bait. AAMEEN

You and your group are only famous for passing out comments and do not speak with proof.

I have given you the Sahih hadith. Just apply your brains if you have some.

Surely the worst of animals in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb who do not use their brains. (Quran 8:22)

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^^^^^^

Mehek

Very TRUE

I was hearing a Question and Answer from a WAhabi/Salafi scholer he was ASKED What proof do you have that Muahmmed is the best of Creation He said WE dont have any but we assume this

When it CAME TO UTHMAN!! he couldnt STOP TALKING about him??

It is true You favuor the 3 over the PROPHET

BIGGEST PROOF

Is that you Turn the EARTH and the SKY when we say that it was UTHMAAN in surat ABASA in the first verses but when you say ITS MUHAMMED you say Yeah it IS??

JAZAKALLAH you wrote SALAFI and not SUNNI.... AHLE SUNNAT have many debates and have totoally humilated the WAHABi/SALAFI for degrading the STATSU of Prophet Mohammed swas and Ahlul Bait... obviously they are khwarji what else can they do...

MEHEK.... SUBHANALLAH what an answer you give.... once you agree on holding one on one dialouge with me INSHALLAH then watch how i will provide my points from Shia books and QURAN INSHALLAH.....

you still fail to answer my simple question.... read my question and answer it and then i will answer you...

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salam

2) Surah al-Imran (3:105):

"And be not like those who separated and disputed after the clear proofs had come unto them: For such there is an awful doom."

(3) Surah al-Imran (3:110):

"Ye are the best community that has been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin the good and forbid the evil; and ye believe in Allah"

(4) Surah Al-An'am (6:159):

"As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou has no part in them in the least: Their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did."

(5) Surah Al-Mu'minun (23:52-53):

"And verily this Ummah of yours is a single Ummah and I am your Lord, so keep your duty unto Me. But they have broken their religion among them into sects, each sect rejoicing in its tenets."

(6) Surah Al-Rum (30:32):

"Those who split up their Religion, and become Sects, each sect exulting in its tenets."

(7) Surah Al-Nisa (4:115):

"He that disobeys the Apostle (Muhammad) after guidance has been made clear to him and follows a way other than that of the believers, We appoint for him that unto which he himself hath turned, and expose him unto Hell - a hapless journey's end!"

(8) Surah Al-An'am (6:153):

"This is My Straight path, so follow it. Follow not other ways, lest ye be parted from His way. This has he ordained for you, that ye may ward off (evil)."

it says do not be seperated , do not break into sects do not be divided ok...

quran also says..

2:100 Is it not (the case) that every time they make a covenant, some party among them throw it aside?- Nay, Most of them are faithless.

6:111 Even if We did send unto them angels, and the dead did speak unto them, and We gathered together all things before their very eyes, they are not the ones to believe, unless it is in Allah's plan. But most of them ignore (the truth).

7:102 Most of them We found not men (true) to their covenant: but most of them We found rebellious and disobedient.

10:36 But most of them follow nothing but fancy: truly fancy can be of no avail against truth. Verily Allah is well aware of all that they do.

quran talks lots and lots of times about the majority being not in the right.. why is it accepted that the verses are abt majority then>?

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salam

2) Surah al-Imran (3:105):

"And be not like those who separated and disputed after the clear proofs had come unto them: For such there is an awful doom."

(3) Surah al-Imran (3:110):

"Ye are the best community that has been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin the good and forbid the evil; and ye believe in Allah"

(4) Surah Al-An'am (6:159):

"As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou has no part in them in the least: Their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did."

(5) Surah Al-Mu'minun (23:52-53):

"And verily this Ummah of yours is a single Ummah and I am your Lord, so keep your duty unto Me. But they have broken their religion among them into sects, each sect rejoicing in its tenets."

(6) Surah Al-Rum (30:32):

"Those who split up their Religion, and become Sects, each sect exulting in its tenets."

(7) Surah Al-Nisa (4:115):

"He that disobeys the Apostle (Muhammad) after guidance has been made clear to him and follows a way other than that of the believers, We appoint for him that unto which he himself hath turned, and expose him unto Hell - a hapless journey's end!"

(8) Surah Al-An'am (6:153):

"This is My Straight path, so follow it. Follow not other ways, lest ye be parted from His way. This has he ordained for you, that ye may ward off (evil)."

it says do not be seperated , do not break into sects do not be divided ok...

quran also says..

2:100 Is it not (the case) that every time they make a covenant, some party among them throw it aside?- Nay, Most of them are faithless.

6:111 Even if We did send unto them angels, and the dead did speak unto them, and We gathered together all things before their very eyes, they are not the ones to believe, unless it is in Allah's plan. But most of them ignore (the truth).

7:102 Most of them We found not men (true) to their covenant: but most of them We found rebellious and disobedient.

10:36 But most of them follow nothing but fancy: truly fancy can be of no avail against truth. Verily Allah is well aware of all that they do.

quran talks lots and lots of times about the majority being not in the right.. why is it accepted that the verses are abt majority then>?

JAZAKALLAH for proving these Quranic Ayats....

DIVIDING inot sects is way of Shaytaan....

and now coming on Majority brother what you provided I agree with but can you please explain who were these ayats referred to... were they referred to MUSLIMS or ??

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salam

2) Surah al-Imran (3:105):

"And be not like those who separated and disputed after the clear proofs had come unto them: For such there is an awful doom."

(3) Surah al-Imran (3:110):

"Ye are the best community that has been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin the good and forbid the evil; and ye believe in Allah"

(4) Surah Al-An'am (6:159):

"As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou has no part in them in the least: Their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did."

(5) Surah Al-Mu'minun (23:52-53):

"And verily this Ummah of yours is a single Ummah and I am your Lord, so keep your duty unto Me. But they have broken their religion among them into sects, each sect rejoicing in its tenets."

(6) Surah Al-Rum (30:32):

"Those who split up their Religion, and become Sects, each sect exulting in its tenets."

(7) Surah Al-Nisa (4:115):

"He that disobeys the Apostle (Muhammad) after guidance has been made clear to him and follows a way other than that of the believers, We appoint for him that unto which he himself hath turned, and expose him unto Hell - a hapless journey's end!"

(8) Surah Al-An'am (6:153):

"This is My Straight path, so follow it. Follow not other ways, lest ye be parted from His way. This has he ordained for you, that ye may ward off (evil)."

it says do not be seperated , do not break into sects do not be divided ok...

quran also says..

2:100 Is it not (the case) that every time they make a covenant, some party among them throw it aside?- Nay, Most of them are faithless.

6:111 Even if We did send unto them angels, and the dead did speak unto them, and We gathered together all things before their very eyes, they are not the ones to believe, unless it is in Allah's plan. But most of them ignore (the truth).

7:102 Most of them We found not men (true) to their covenant: but most of them We found rebellious and disobedient.

10:36 But most of them follow nothing but fancy: truly fancy can be of no avail against truth. Verily Allah is well aware of all that they do.

quran talks lots and lots of times about the majority being not in the right.. why is it accepted that the verses are abt majority then>?

JAZAKALLAH for providing these Quranic Ayats....

DIVIDING inot sects is way of Shaytaan....

and now coming on Majority brother what you provided I agree with but can you please explain who were these ayats referred to... were they referred to MUSLIMS or ??

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Actually Harun(as) was not the successor of Musa(as) it was Joshua(as).

Joshua was successor to Moses only because Aaron died before Moses.

“Aaron died on Mount Hor on the border of the land of Edom, at the age of 123, and his office then given to Eleazar. Moses died later in Moab.”

http://encyclopedia.edwardtbabinski.us/who/a/aaron/

“Aaron died during the lifetime of his brother Moses, and the well went to Joshua to be handed to Aaron’s children.”

http://www.missionislam.com/comprel/Judaism.htm

Now let us see some of the many ayah about Moses and Aaron in the Quran

Moses Dua for Aaron

020.029

YUSUFALI: "And give me a Minister from my family,

020.030

YUSUFALI: "Aaron, my brother;

020.031

YUSUFALI: "Add to my strength through him,

and other Ayah

010.075

YUSUFALI: Then after them sent We Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh and his chiefs with Our Signs. But they were arrogant: they were a people in sin.

025.035

YUSUFALI: (Before this,) We sent Moses The Book, and appointed his brother Aaron with him as minister;

021.048

YUSUFALI: In the past We granted to Moses and Aaron the criterion (for judgment), and a Light and a Message for those who would do right,-

023.045

YUSUFALI: Then We sent Moses and his brother Aaron, with Our Signs and authority manifest,

026.013

YUSUFALI: "My breast will be straitened. And my speech may not go (smoothly): so send unto Aaron.

And from the Sahih hadith we come to know

Sahih Muslim

Book 031, Number 5916:

Sa'd reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying to 'Ali: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses?

When Aaron enjoyed such a great relationship with Moses as an aider/minister/strength and the best company as evidenced by Quran, if he would have survived at the time of Moses, would he not be his immediate successor?

Now that Imam Ali (as) enjoyed the same divine relationship with Prophet (pbuh) as what Aaron had with Moses as per Sahih hadith, would he not be the best guide and immediate successor of Prophet (pbuh) after him?

Please also note that that Allah also says

025.035

YUSUFALI: We sent Moses The Book, and appointed his brother Aaron ; with him as minister;

032.024

SHAKIR: And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

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I only answered your question Harun(as) was not Musa(as) successor. Allah knows best if he would have been but we live in the world of what did not what could have. Iman Ali(ra) was not a prophet Harun(as) was . The hadith to me and I am not a scholar seesm to relate him Iman Ali(ra) being left behind in battle and being upset Prophet(pbuh) let him know how important position he was leaving him stating that he was being a helper to him like Harun(as) was to Musa(as) again not successor but helper.

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^ since it is projected that in the near future (within 30 years, I believe) that SUNNIS will be the majority on the planet, are we to believe that Qur'an will change focus and ONLY THEN include sunnis, or should we take it to include the majority of MANKIND (INCLUDING sunnis (and other muslims in general))? common sense says the latter, but so many sunnis who take solace in being "with the majority", always distance themselves from the majority refered to in these ayats. I wonder why :angel:

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Actually the Quran so many times SAYS The MOST are wrong!!

Does the Qur’an say majority of the Muslims are wrong, or the majority of mankind? Indeed the majority of mankind are in error, but the majority of those who claim to be Muslims are correct, as shown in many verses of the Qur’an.

The prophet told us to follow the Ahululbayt and the Quran so this is what the Shia Done

If we FOLLOWED the MAJORITY then we will be SAYING RADTHIA Allah on people who killed AHULULBAYT

First, the shiites dont follow the Ahl al-Bayt but claim to follow only twelve of them, and even that through chainless madeup narrations.

Second, The majority Muslims are correct on grounds of belief. The unfortunate matters of dispute that arose between the early Muslims were on worldly issues. Ali and Mu’awiyah did not differ in belief. Both did not believe in Imamah. It is recoded in a sahih hadith:

يَزِيدُ بْنُ هَارُونَ عَنْ شَرِيكٍ عَنْ أَبِي الْعَنْبَسِ عَنْ أَبِي الْبَخْتَرِيِّ قَالَ : سُئِلَ عَلِيٌّ عَنْ أَهْلِ الْجَمَلِ قَالَ : قِيلَ : أَمُشْرِكُونَ هُمْ ؟ قَالَ : مِنْ الشِّرْكِ فَرُّوا ، قِيلَ : أَمُنَافِقُونَ هُمْ ؟ قَالَ : إنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ لَا يَذْكُرُونَ اللَّهَ إلَّا قَلِيلًا ؛ قِيلَ : فَمَا هُمْ ؟ قَالَ : إخْوَانُنَا بَغَوْا عَلَيْنَ

Yazīd bin Hārūn  Sharīk  Abul Anbas  Abul Bukhtari:

Ali was asked about the people of Jamal. He was asked “are they polytheists?”. He replied “from polytheism they have fled”. He was asked “are they hypocrites?”. He replied “truly the hypocrites mention Allah not but little (whereas they mention/remember Allah much)”. He was asked “then what are they?”. He replied “Our brothers (who have) rebelled against us.”

http://feqh.al-islam.com/Display.asp?Mode=...amp;Diacratic=0 (Musannafi Ibn Abi Shaybah)

Omer (killer of al zahra)??

The Umar-Fatimah incident is not true. Most Imamiah scholars agree it is made up, for it makes no sense that Ali ra would watch as his wife is beat up. The incident is one of those fables, like the Shiites claim of Abdullah ibn Saba - a supposedly fake character. Is this not double standards? You would deny history when it is weak and does not support your beliefs. But when it is weak and does support your feeble beliefs, you clutch to it with all life.

We have no reason to defend Saddam or Yazid, but we do not speak bad of the dead who's fate is unknown.

Was Aaron not the successor of Moses?

No, Joshua was the successor of Musa. Harun took the place of his brother in his absence, as Ali did for the Prophet at Tabuk. Musa outlived Harun. Harun was his elder brother. The hadith does not prove successorship but is one of the virtues of Ali ra.

And of the previous post, through inference is shown Harun is the wazir (helper) of Musa (as). The Prophet (saw) directly said Abu Bakr and Umar ra were his two wazirs: http://hadith.al-islam.com/display/Display...=3613&doc=2

We do not deny Ali ra was the successor of the Prophet (saw), but he was not the immediate one.

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^ since it is projected that in the near future (within 30 years, I believe) that SUNNIS will be the majority on the planet, are we to believe that Qur'an will change focus and ONLY THEN include sunnis, or should we take it to include the majority of MANKIND (INCLUDING sunnis (and other muslims in general))? common sense says the latter, but so many sunnis who take solace in being "with the majority", always distance themselves from the majority refered to in these ayats. I wonder why :angel:

Majority mankind means >50%. Sunnis presently are <20%. In 30 years I doubt they will become the majority on the planet. That would mean they would have to pretty much triple while the world's population remains constant. Are u sure u got ur facts right?

Majority Muslim is always correct. Majority mankind is always in error.

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My understanding of going with majority is only when there is no quran or sunnah that contradicts. Then we are told to side with the majority. I believe even shia claim that Iman Ali(ra) did this by not going to war over caliph issue.

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several sources I found online state that even without conversion (of which Islam has a high rate) that the proportion of Muslims to Christians is growing, and will exceed christians in about 20 years. Since 80% (or more) of those are sunnis, and as I said that number is EXCLUDING conversions to Islam, there WILL come a time when sunnis are the majority. I was mistaken on the timing, but not on the projected outcome. and you have NOT brought forth proof to back your claim that majority of Muslims CANNOT EVER BE WRONG.

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Salaam Alaiqum,

Yaa Ali madad haq hai

Munafiqs love n respect lanti muawiya

Majority Muslim is always correct. Majority mankind is always in error.

Majority of muslims(including umer) ran away from islamic battle fields , so were those muslims(including umer) correct in running away from islamic battle fields??

Click on the link below and its proved from SUNNI sources that umer ran away from Islamic batle fields

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234915392

so were they correct??

Allah hafiz

Yaa Ali Madad haq hai

Hussainayet Zindabad

yazeediyet +his so called father lanti muawiya +his so called father lanti abu sufyan murdabad

Firoz Ali

Edited by Firoz Ali
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