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In the Name of God بسم الله

Shias Commit Shirk

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abu-usaama

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salam alaykum

would it be shirk if i was to call out to a deaf person?

('assume' i believed the deaf person was dependant on Allah.)

if it is still shirk explain to me how.

salam

if you know him,still you keep calling ,then i would suggest you to see doctor :D (just joking)

if you believe that he has some power to listen you and help you by his spiritual power ,than i must say it is shirk indeed.

then tell me why we are repeating the following verse five times a day:

You alone do we worship, and Your aid alone we seek.” (Quran, 1:5)

plz dear ponder over this verse:

“Verily those whom you call upon besides Allah are servants like you. Therefore, call upon them, and let them listen to your prayers, if you are (indeed) truthful!” (Quran, 7: 194)

here servent like you means jesus or other prophet as well as some prominent person who were their forth father.

if you believe you can invoke to ali by saying ya ali madad ,then yo have to accept christian invoking by saying ya jesus madad.

Can not you see ...

Allah knows best

May Allah help those who are trying to find the truth.

was salam

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salam

if you know him,still you keep calling ,then i would suggest you to see doctor (just joking)

yes but that doesnt explain it being shirk.

and i cannot see a doctor anyway for that would be shirk. refer to the verses u quoted please:

?You alone do we worship, and Your aid alone we seek.? (Quran, 1:5)

if you believe that he has some power to listen you and help you by his spiritual power ,than i must say it is shirk indeed.

no i dont believe he has any power. so how is it shirk?

and if i did believe he had power but also believed it came from Allah and that he could do nothing without the will of Allah, how would this be shirk?

plz dear ponder over this verse:

?Verily those whom you call upon besides Allah are servants like you. Therefore, call upon them, and let them listen to your prayers, if you are (indeed) truthful!? (Quran, 7: 194

here servent like you means jesus or other prophet as well as some prominent person who were their forth father.

if you believe you can invoke to ali by saying ya ali madad ,then yo have to accept christian invoking by saying ya jesus madad.

Can not you see ...

Allah knows best

May Allah help those who are trying to find the truth.

again with your literal interpretation of the verses above we should not call anyone but Allah. no calling mum, dad, doctor, police anyone.

if we can call mum, dad, doctor, police or anyone tell me how? under what conditions?

please dont say it is because they are alive because if i believe the help from the doctor is inherent in himself than this is shirk. so being alive has nothing to do it.

please answer my question:

would it be shirk if i was to call out to a deaf person?

('assume' i believed the deaf person was dependant on Allah.)

if it is still shirk explain to me how.

Edited by revolutionary guard 1979
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yes but that doesnt explain it being shirk.

and i cannot see a doctor anyway for that would be shirk. refer to the verses u quoted please:

?You alone do we worship, and Your aid alone we seek.? (Quran, 1:5)........................................................................................

no i dont believe he has any power. so how is it shirk?

if it is still shirk explain to me how.

salam

it seems you did not read my post carefully .Plz read it again and look at the bold and red letter .hope you will get answer.

some more verses:Allah says:

When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way. (The Noble Quran, 2:186)"

when Allah is close and reply each and every prayer why we need intercessor??

plz dont bring hadith in this picture ...Allah did not promise to guird hadith.No matter how authentic it is ...no matter whether it is from shia or sunni source or both ...it is still hadith not quran.

Allah says again:

10. Jonah (Y?010.018 They worship beside Allah that which neither hurteth them nor profiteth them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Would ye inform Allah of (something) that He knoweth not in the heavens or in the earth ? Praised be He and High Exalted above all that ye associate (with Him)!

Will you still close ur eyes?

chummun bukmun ummun ...is kaffir's quality not ours.

Ya Allah Ya Allah help...Ya Allah help to those who are trying to understand the truth.

Ameen.

Was salam

Edited by ejurrasic
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Salaam Alaiqum,

Yaa Ali madad haq hai haq hai haq hai

Munafiqs love n respect muawiya lanti

salam

Ali (ra) is not on the earth now .how can he listen to you let alone reply?.

was ssalam

says who??

“Think not of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord” (Surah 3:169-171).

Yaa Ali madad is discussed in details on this thread

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=79781&hl=

Brother Akeel Abbas has done a wonderful debate on Yaa Ali Madad

Debate is wonderul and done in a very decent way

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=79781&hl=

reply there only

Allah Hafiz

Yaa Ali madad haq hai haq hai haq hai

Hussainayet Zinbdabad

yazeediyet +his so called father lanti muawiya +his so called father lanti abu sufyan murdabad

Firoz Ali

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Salaam Alaiqum,

Yaa Ali madad haq hai haq hai haq hai

Munafiqs love n respect muawiya lanti

says who??

“Think not of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord” (Surah 3:169-171).

salam

another comment without understanding the post. :)

where is the link between "Ali(ra) is not on the earth" and this verse???

was salam

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Salaam Alaiqum

Yaa Ali Madad haq hai haq hai haq hai

Munafiqs love n respect muawiya

salam

another comment without understanding the post. :)

where is the link between "Ali(ra) is not on the earth" and this verse???

was salam

Read th ayat again and again

Hazret Ali A.S is alive accrording to this verse also

Now if u say that Hazret Ali A.S is not on earth then u have to prove Hazret Ali A.S is not on earth

who told u ??

pLz go to the thread below

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=79781&hl=

Yaa Ali Madad is debated in nice way

If u realy wish to learn but if u only wish to win an argument then its okey u may not visit the thread

very learned sunnis participated in the debate in a nice way

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=79781&hl=

Allah Hafiz

Yaa Ali Madad

Hussainyet Zindabad

Yazeediyet +his so called father lanti muawiya +his so called father lanti abu sufyan murdabad

Firoz Ali

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Rasool (pbuh) can hear our salams correct or not?

salam

i repeat what i said:

plz dont bring hadith in this picture ...Allah did not promise to guird hadith.No matter how authentic it is ...no matter whether it is from shia or sunni source or both ...it is still hadith not quran.
Edited by ejurrasic
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Salaam Alaiqum,

Yaa Ali Madad haq hai haq hai haq hai

Munafiqs loven rerspect lanti muawiya

Akeel Abbas did a real nice job.

Yes brother link , I agree with u

Brother Akeel Abbas realy did a nice job on the Issue of "Yaa Ali Madad "

on the thread below

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=79781&hl=

Its very very informative too and the debate was done in a real nice decent way

Those genuine ppl who have realy want to learn abt "Yaa Ali Madad' issue shud visit this thread .

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=79781&hl=

Allah Hafiz

Yaa Ali Madad haq hai haq hai haq hai

Hussainyet Zindabad

yazeediyet +his so called father lanti muawiya +his so called father lanti abu sufyan murdabad

Firoz Ali

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Salaam Alaiqum,

Yaa Ali madad haq hai haq hai haq hai

Munafiqs love n respect muawiya lanti

salam

plz dont bring hadith in this picture ...Allah did not promise to guird hadith.No matter how authentic it is ...no matter whether it is from shia or sunni source or both ...it is still hadith not quran.

Was salam

DONT BRING HADEETHS IN PICURE >>>NO MATER HOW AUTHENTIC ITS STILL HADEETH AND NOT QURAN !!

Might be u can tell this to abu baqr and umer for Garden of Fadak

While Holy Quran states abt inhertance

From what is left by parents and those nearest related there is a share for men and a share for women, whether the property be small or large,a determinate share.

Al-Qur'an, Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 7, translated by Yusufali

Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half.

Al-Qur'an, Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 11, translated by Yusufali

This same umer who insulted the holy prophet SAWW on his death bed and said "Book (Quran) is enough but when time came to snatch the rights and propertly of Holy Prophet's daughter produced hadees

proved from sunni sources

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=51832

and abu baqr was burning hadees (proved from sunni sources)

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...&hl=burning

So hadeeses were needed by abu baqr and umer and Holy Quran was not needed by abu baqr and umer when it came to snatching the Rights and huquqs of Holy Lady , Only Daughter of The Holy Prophet SAWW Bibi Fatima A.S

so for abu baqr and umer somtimes Holy Quran is enough and sometimes , when The Holy Quran favours the Bibi Fatima A.S that time for abu baqr and umer hadees is enough

what sort of Islam these two possesed any body can see for themselves

Allah hafiz

Yaa Ali Madad haq hai

Hussainayet Zindabad

yazeediyet +his so called father lanti muawiya +his socalled father lanti abu sufyan murdabad

Firoz Ali

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In reply to Abu oosama,

[Pickthal 63:5-6] And when it is said unto them: Come! The messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you! They [the hypocrites] avert their faces and thou seest them turning away, disdainful. Whether thou ask forgiveness for them or ask not forgiveness for them is all one for them; Allah will not forgive them

005.035

YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Do your duty to Allah, seek the means of approach unto Him, and strive with might and main in his cause: that ye may prosper.

PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Be mindful of your duty to Allah, and seek the way of approach unto Him, and strive in His way in order that ye may succeed.

SHAKIR: O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful.

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salam

it seems you did not read my post carefully .Plz read it again and look at the bold and red letter .hope you will get answer.

some more verses:Allah says:

When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way. (The Noble Quran, 2:186)"

when Allah is close and reply each and every prayer why we need intercessor??

plz dont bring hadith in this picture ...Allah did not promise to guird hadith.No matter how authentic it is ...no matter whether it is from shia or sunni source or both ...it is still hadith not quran.

Allah says again:

10. Jonah (Y?010.018 They worship beside Allah that which neither hurteth them nor profiteth them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Would ye inform Allah of (something) that He knoweth not in the heavens or in the earth ? Praised be He and High Exalted above all that ye associate (with Him)!

Will you still close ur eyes?

chummun bukmun ummun ...is kaffir's quality not ours.

Ya Allah Ya Allah help...Ya Allah help to those who are trying to understand the truth.

Ameen.

Was salam

*sigh*

can you please explain to me why it is not shirk to ask your mother to pray for you but it is shirk to ask the Prophet (s) and Ali (as) to pray for you?

again please dont say it is because they cant hear you. if i call a deaf person to pray on my behalf it may be stupid but stupidity is not shirk.

allow me to repeat my question for the third time :

how is it shirk to ask a deaf person to pray on your behalf?

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*sigh*

can you please explain to me why it is not shirk to ask your mother to pray for you but it is shirk to ask the Prophet (s) and Ali as.gif to pray for you?

ok let me jump in here

Fact 1: suppose You ask your mother to pray for you? and after she offers her pray she supplicates to Allah for your success.

Attention: Ponder here:

is your mother alive?

yes she is?

could she hear you?

yes she could

can she pray to Allah"

yes she does and she recites surah al fatiha where theres is a verse

[1.5] You (alone) we worship; and You (alone)we rely for help.

im very simple minded

let me explain again when someone ask me "Hey please pray for me" and suppose it is the time of Maghrib, after i finish performing my maghrib prayer i supplicates for everyone and for "you" specially becoz u requested me to pray, well it doesnt mean that i only perform maghrib prayer and u dont just becoz u asked me to pray, u also have to perform the maghrib prayer. clear enough i guess

Fact 2: now consider this "Ya ali madad" when it is said it is to commit shirk, you reply "no we simply ask ali(ra) to pray for us"

Is ali(ra) alive?

of course not

do you think he could listen to what u have just said "ya ali madad"?

nope, becoz hes a human, he died

if you pull out the logic saying "we ask ali(ra) to pray for us" then i must say according to you it should be Prophet Mohammed(sm) " ya Mohammed madad" (astagfurullah)

Who is our God?

AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì

who is our sustainer?

Allah

Who is our helper, forgiver?

Only Allah

Hes always living, He never dies

Allah said

When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, Listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way. (The Noble Quran, 2:186)"

now when you are inflicted with calamity you shouldnt be calling ali(ra) to help you nor did anywhere in the Qur'an Allah said some of you ask ali to pray for you. for the sake of giving example if Allah were to say about anything like this "ya ali madad" to pray on behalf of you then the name of Mohammed(sm) be mentioned not Ali(ra)

In Islam we have direct connection between Allah and Us, theres no third party.

therefore we should supplicate Allah alone, we dont need any intermediaries

we should be saying "Ya Allah madad"

again please dont say it is because they cant hear you. if i call a deaf person to pray on my behalf it may be stupid but stupidity is not shirk.

yes my dear brother it is indeed a stupidity if u ask a deaf to pray for you, becoz he/she cant hear you, but hes alive and can understand you if you try and ask him to pray for you by showing gestures then it is not a stupidity anymore..hope you understand.

eating cookies is shirk according to sunnis.

huh......... :( we muslim eat cookies and before we eat we should say "in the Name of Allah the most gracious, the most merciful" its not at all a shirk, even if you mistakenly dont pronoucne the sentence "in the name of Allah" it is not a shirk unless you use like "in the name of jesus" or "in the name of Ali"

wassalam

Edited by mkafil
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Salaam Alaiqum,

Yaa Ali Madad haq hai haq hai haq hai

munafiqs love muawiya lanti

Is ali(A.S) alive?

of course not

wassalam

My my looks like u havent read the full thread and

u r going against the Holy Quran

“Think not of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord” (Surah 3:169-171).

read the full thread then post something

read post number 43 or much better go to the thread below

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=79781&hl=

if u have come to learn something then visit the link

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=79781&hl=

and Issue of yaa Ali A.S madad is discussed in full details

Allah Hafiz

Yaa Ali Madad haq hai haq hai haq hai

Hussainayet Zindabad

Yazediyet +his so called father lanti muawiya +his so cal;led father lanti abu sufyan murdabad

Firoz Ali

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salam alaykum

again please dont say it is because they cant hear you. if i call a deaf person to pray on my behalf it may be stupid but stupidity is not shirk.

yes my dear brother it is indeed a stupidity if u ask a deaf to pray for you, becoz he/she cant hear you, but hes alive and can understand you if you try and ask him to pray for you by showing gestures then it is not a stupidity anymore..hope you understand.

absolutely. its stupid. but im not asking you if its stupid. im asking how is it shirk? you still have not explained that to me.

i will repeat the question again:

is it shirk to ask a deaf person to pray on your behalf? if so how?

Edited by revolutionary guard 1979
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salam alaykum

yes my dear brother it is indeed a stupidity if u ask a deaf to pray for you, becoz he/she cant hear you, but hes alive and can understand you if you try and ask him to pray for you by showing gestures then it is not a stupidity anymore..hope you understand.

absolutely. its stupid. but how is it shirk? you still have not explained that to me.

i will repeat the question again:

is it shirk to ask a deaf person to pray on your behalf? if so how?

Did i say it is a shirk??? re read my post plz brother, dont be quick, be easy. i said u may try to ask the person by showing gestures to pray for you, hes alive and u have the chance to make him understand what u are trying to say, hes not dead.

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If I were to call a doctor for help who is in sweden, while im in america (without a phone or normal means), then yes it would be shirk.

If i called him on the phone it wouldnt be shirk. Why? Becauase he would be able to hear me, and respond to me.

Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) is dead, and he cant hear you, nor can he respond to you. Calling out to him is what is explicitly forbidden in many ayaat:

æóÃóäøó ÇáúãóÓóÇÌöÏó áöáøóåö ÝóáóÇ ÊóÏúÚõæÇ ãóÚó Çááøóåö ÃóÍóÏÇð

"And the mosques are for Allah (Alone), so invoke not anyone along with Allah. " [surah Al-Jinn aayah 18]

Þá Åäí äåíÊ Ãä ÃÚÈÏ ÇáÐíä ÊÏÚæä ãä Ïæä Çááå Þá áÇ ÃÊÈÚ ÃåæÇÁßã ÞÏ ÖááÊ ÅÐÇ æãÇ ÃäÇ ãä ÇáãåÊÏíä

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "I have been forbidden to worship those whom you invoke (worship) besides Allah." Say: "I will not follow your vain desires. If I did, I would go astray, and I would not be one of the rightly guided." [6:56]

æáÇ ÊÏÚ ãä Ïæä Çááå ãÇ áÇ íäÝÚß æáÇ íÖÑß ÝÅä ÝÚáÊ ÝÅäß ÅÐÇ ãä ÇáÙÇáãíä

"And invoke not besides Allah, any that will neither profit you, nor hurt you, but if (in case) you did so, you shall certainly be one of the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers)." [10:106]

Ðóáößõãõ Çááøóåõ ÑóÈøõßõãú áóåõ Çáúãõáúßõ æóÇáøóÐöíäó ÊóÏúÚõæäó ãöä Ïõæäöåö ãóÇ íóãúáößõæäó ãöä ÞöØúãöíÑò

Åöä ÊóÏúÚõæåõãú áóÇ íóÓúãóÚõæÇ ÏõÚóÇÁßõãú æóáóæú ÓóãöÚõæÇ ãóÇ ÇÓúÊóÌóÇÈõæÇ áóßõãú æóíóæúãó ÇáúÞöíóÇãóÉö íóßúÝõÑõæäó ÈöÔöÑúßößõãú æóáóÇ íõäóÈøöÆõßó ãöËúáõ ÎóÈöíÑò

"Such is Allah your Lord; His is the kingdom. And those, whom you invoke or call upon instead of Him, own not even a Qitmir (the thin membrane over the datestone).

If you invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your call, and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will disown your worshipping them. And none can inform you (O Muhammad SAW) like Him Who is the AllKnower (of each and everything)." [ 35:13-14]

There is a staunch difference between someone who can hear and grant me my request, to one who can not hear nor grant me my request.

And if you have any proof from Allaah that Ali can hear you, then bring your proof if you are truthful!

(bismillah)

All i am going to say is that Wahabi do not know what is Tawhid is Allah says SEEK NEARNESS to him and now your saying this is shirk

Didnt Omar seek help

now if i am getting beaten up and i see my freind i call him to help me is this shirk??

this is the leval of stupidity the school OF SALAF has gone to and will go further

and by the way is it that your Scholers say Allah has FEET and GOLDEN SANDELS

ÞÇá Ýí (ÊáÈíÓ ÇáÌåãíÉ) Õ619: (ÞÇá ÈÚÖåã: ÞÏ ÞÇá Çááå ÊÚÇáì: (æóÇÊøóÎóÐó Þóæúãõ ãõæÓóì ãöäú ÈóÚúÏöåö ãöäú Íõáöíøöåöãú ÚöÌúáÇð ÌóÓóÏÇð áóåõ ÎõæóÇÑñ Ãóáóãú íóÑóæúÇ Ãóäøóåõ áÇ íõßóáøöãõåõãú æóáÇ íóåúÏöíåöãú ÓóÈöíáÇð ÇÊøóÎóÐõæåõ æóßóÇäõæÇ ÙóÇáöãöíäó) (ÓæÑÉ ÇáÃÚÑÇÝ: 148) ÝÞÏ Ðã Çááå ãä ÇÊÎÐ ÅáåÇð ÌÓÏÇð¡ æÇáÌÓÏ åæ ÇáÌÓã Ýíßæä Çááå ÞÏ Ðã ãä ÇÊÎÐ ÅáåÇð åæ ÌÓã. ÝíÞÇá áå:åÐÇ ÈÇØá ãä æÌæå¡ ÃÍÏåÇ: Ãä åÐÇ ÅäãÇ íÏá Úáì äÝí Ãä íßæä ÌÓÏÇð¡ áÇ Úáì äÝí Ãä íßæä ÌÓãÇð!! æÇáÌÓã Ýí ÇÕØáÇÍ äÝÇÉ ÇáÕÝÇÊ ÃÚã ãä ÇáÌÓÏ)!!

æÞÇá Ýí ãäåÇÌ ÇáÓäÉ:2/563: (ÝåÐÇ ÇáãÕäÝ ÇáÅãÇãí Ü íÞÕÏ ÇáÚáÇãÉ ÇáÍáí Ýí ßÊÇÈå ãäåÇÌ ÇáßÑÇãÉ Ü ÇÚÊãÏ Úáì ØÑíÞ ÇáãÚÊÒáÉ æãä ÊÇÈÚåã ãä Ãä ÇáÅÚÊãÇÏ Ýí ÊäÒíå ÇáÑÈ Úä ÇáäÞÇÆÕ Úáì äÝí ßæäå ÌÓãÇð¡ æãÚáæã Ãä åÐå ÇáØÑíÞÉ áã íÑÏ ÈåÇ ßÊÇÈ æáÇ ÓäÉ! æáÇ åí ãÃËæÑÉ Úä ÃÍÏ ãä ÇáÓáÝ!! ÝÞÏ Úáã Ãäå áÇ ÃÕá áåÇ Ýí ÇáÔÑÚ

read this is from IBN TAMMIYAH BOOK

and this is from Your own books aswell AESHA taught the muslims to TAWWSUL at the grave of the PROPHET

ÚÞÏ ÇáÏÇÑãí Ýí Óääå:1/43 ÈÇÈÇð ÊÍÊ ÚäæÇä: (ÈÇÈ ãÇ ÃßÑã Çááå ÊÚÇáì äÈíå (Õ) ÈÚÏ ãæÊå)¡ æÑæì Ýíå åÐÇ ÇáÍÏíË: (ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæ ÇáäÚãÇä¡ ËäÇ ÓÚíÏ Èä ÒíÏ¡ ËäÇ ÚãÑæ Èä ãÇáß ÇáäßÑí ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæ ÇáÌæÒÇÁ ÃæÓ Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå ÞÇá: ÞÍØ Ãåá ÇáãÏíäÉ ÞÍØÇð ÔÏíÏÇð ÝÔßæÇ Åáì ÚÇÆÔÉ ÝÞÇáÊ: ÃäÙÑæÇ ÞÈÑ ÇáäÈí (Õ) ÝÇÌÚáæÇ ãäå ßæìð Åáì ÇáÓãÇÁ¡ ÍÊì áÇíßæä Èíäå æÈíä ÇáÓãÇÁ ÓÞÝ¡ ÞÇá ÝÝÚáæÇ ÝãØÑäÇ ãØÑÇð ÍÊì äÈÊ ÇáÚÔÈ æÓãäÊ ÇáÅÈá ÍÊì ÊÝÊÞÊ ãä ÇáÔÍã¡ ÝÓãí ÚÇã ÇáÝÊÞ).

æÞÏ ÊÍíÑ ÇÈä ÊíãíÉ æÃÊÈÇÚå ßÇáÃáÈÇäí Ýí ÑæÇíÉ ÚÇÆÔÉ Ýí ÇáÊæÓá áÃäåÇ ÕÑíÍÉ æåí Úáì ãæÇÒíä ÚáãÇÁ ÇáÌÑÍ æÇáÊÚÏíá ÕÍíÍÉ! æÈÍËÇ Úä ãäÝÐ áÊÖÚíÝåÇ¡ ÝÊÚÞÈåã ÇáäÞÇÏ ãä ÃÊÈÇÚ ÇáãÐÇåÈ ÇáãÎÊáÝÉ æßÔÝæÇ ãÇ ÇÑÊßÈæå Ýí ÊÖÚíÝ ÍÏíË ÚÇÆÔÉ ÇÊÈÇÚÇð ááåæì!

ÞÇá ÇáÕÏíÞ ÇáãÛÑÈí Ýí ßÊÇÈå: (ÅÑÛÇã ÇáãÈÊÏÚ ÇáÛÈí Ýí ÌæÇÒ ÇáÊæÓá ÈÇáäÈí (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã) Õ23: (ÞÇá ÇáÏÇÑãí Ýí Óääå... æäÞá ÑæÇíÊå Ëã ÞÇá:

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ÇáÕÝÍÉ 115

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ÖÚÝ ÇáÃáÈÇäí åÐÇ ÇáÃËÑ ÈÓÚíÏ Èä ÒíÏ¡ æåæ ãÑÏæÏ áÃä ÓÚíÏÇð ãä ÑÌÇá ãÓáã¡ ææËÞå íÍíì Èä ãÚíä. ÐßÑ ÇáÃáÈÇäí ÊÖÚíÝå Ýí ßÊÇÈå (ÇáÊæÓá ÃäæÇÚå æÃÍßÇãå Ø.ËÇäíÉ Õ128) æÇÍÊÌ ÈÍÌÌ ÈÇØáÉ Úáì ÚÇÏÊå Ýí ÊãæíåÇÊå¡ ÍíË äÞá ßáÇã ÇÈä ÍÌÑ Ýí ÇáÊÞÑÈÈ ÇáÐí íæÇÝÞ åæÇå æáã íäÞá ãä åäÇáß Ãäå ãä ÑÌÇá ãÓáã Ýí ÕÍíÍå¡ ÝáääÊÈå Åáì åÐÇ ÇáÊÏáíÓ æåÐå ÇáÎíÇäÉ ÇáÊí ÊÚæÏ ÚáíåÇ åÐÇ ÇáÑÌá¡ ÇáÐí íÕÝ ÃÚÏÇÁå ÈßÊãÇä ÇáÍÞ æãÇ íÎÇáÝ ÂÑÇÁåã¡ ßãÇ Ýí ãÞÏãÊå ÇáÌÏíÏÉ áÂÏÇÈ ÒÝÇÝå æÇáÊí ÍáÇåÇ ÈãÇ Ïá Úáì ÇÎÊáÇØå ãä åÌÑñ æÎäÇð¡ Ëã ÃÑÏÝ Ðáß ÈäÞá ÊÑÌãÉ ÓÚíÏ Èä ÒíÏ ãä ÇáãíÒÇä ááÐåÈí¡ ÒíÇÏÉ Ýí ÇáßÊã æÇáÊÚãíÉ¡ æÞÏ ÎÇä Ýáã íÐßÑ ãÇ ÐßÑ ÇáÍÇÝÙ ÇÈä ÍÌÑ Ýí ÊåÐíÈ ÇáÊåÐíÈ:4/29 ãä äÞá ÃÞæÇá ãæËÞíå¡ ÒíÇÏÉð Úáì Ãäå ãä ÑÌÇá ãÓáã Ýí ÇáÕÍíÍ.... æÖÚÝå ÃíÖÇð ÈÇÎÊáÇØ ÃÈí ÇáäÚãÇä¡ æåæ ÊÖÚíÝ ÛíÑ ÕÍíÍ áÃä ÇÎÊáÇØ ÃÈí ÇáäÚãÇä áã íÄËÑ Ýí ÑæÇíÊå¡ ÞÇá ÇáÏÇÑÞØäí: ÊÛíÑ ÈÂÎÑå æãÇ ÙåÑ áå ÈÚÏ ÇÎÊáÇØå ÍÏíË ãäßÑ æåæ ËÞÉ. æÞæá ÇÈä ÍÈÇä æÞÚ Ýí ÍÏíËå ÇáãäÇßíÑ ÇáßËíÑÉ ÈÚÏ ÇÎÊáÇØå ÑÏå ÇáÐåÈí ÝÞÇá: áã íÞÏÑ ÇÈä ÍÈÇä Ãä íÓæÞ áå ÍÏíËÇð ãäßÑÇð!).

æóóáÇ ÊóÍúÓóÈóäøó ÇáøóÐöíäó ÞõÊöáõæÇ Ýöí ÓóÈöíáö Çááåö ÃóãúæóÇÊÇð Èóáú ÃóÍúíóÇÁñ ÚöäúÏó ÑóÈøöåöãú íõÑúÒóÞõæäó

May Allah guide YOU

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(bismillah)

(salam)

In the School of Ahlul-Bayt (a.s.), we look at the entire Qu'ran before reaching a conclusion on one or two or any number of Ayaat. There are many Ayaat in the Qu'ran that say Shafa'aa is haram and this would mean that the phrase "Ya 'Ali" or "Ya Hassan" or "Ya Fatima" or anything like that would be shirk. However, Allah (s.w.t.) says in The Holy Qu'ran shafa'aa is haraam, with a few exceptions.

They shall not control intercession, save he who has made a covenant with the Beneficent Allah.

(19:87)

On that day shall no intercession avail except of him whom the Beneficent Allah allows and whose word He is pleased with.

(10:109)

He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves and for fear of Him they tremble.

(21:28)

And those whom they call upon besides Him have no authority for intercession, but he who bears witness of the truth and they know (him).

(43:86)

Here we can clearly see the Allah (s.w.t.) has allowed some people to have intercession. Surat 19, Ayaat 87 says no one can have intercession "save he who has made a covenant with Allah". Therefore Shi'as do not commit shirk.

I apologize if I have repeated previous posts or am going off topic.

Ma'salama.

Edited by al-iman
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Did i say it is a shirk??? re read my post plz brother, dont be quick, be easy. i said u may try to ask the person by showing gestures to pray for you, hes alive and u have the chance to make him understand what u are trying to say, hes not dead.

person A calls a deaf person to pray on his behalf.

person A knows he is deaf.

person A does makes no other attempt to get his attention.

person A knows everything is dependant on Allah.

Is this shirk? If yes how?

Edited by revolutionary guard 1979
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person A calls a deaf person to pray on his behalf.

person A knows he is deaf.

person A does makes no other attempt to get his attention.

person A knows everything is dependant on Allah.

Is this shirk? If yes how?

:cry: you are contradicting urself

tell me is it necessary for u to tell the deaf to pray for you? whats the percentage of deaf on the earth? if u feel like u dont want to attempt to draw his attention then dont........

i didnt say its a shirk, to ask a deaf to pray for you and to ask a dead man "ya ali madad" who himself never said that people should ask him to pray on his behalf totally a different image.

the deaf is alive and if the deaf cant hear then dotn ask him to pray, a deaf could be my father, or my mother, brother or a member of my family so simply i can ask him/her to pray for my success, it doesnt mean i worship him or i took him/her as intermediary, i simply requested after he/she finishes pray he will supplicate and i will be counted in his supplication.........for example by gesturing if i requested a member of my family or the closest one whos deaf that plz pray for my coming midterm, and after he or she finishes the prayer whether it be a magrhrib, asar, zuhor he supplicates like " ya Allah help this xxx to pass in his mid term" its not a shirk im not asking the deaf "ya deaf madad"

well i can also perform the prayer and ask Allah the same "Ya Allah help me pass my mid term" well its not always necessary for me to ask anyone to pray for me.

now let me be more clear its about supplication, i dont ask the deaf to pray maghrib salah for me, i ask him to supplicate for me which i can also do myself. therefore its not compulsory to ask anyone to supplicate for me

when u are inflicted in the calamity you pray and supplicate for help to Allah alone, simple.

Edited by mkafil
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person A calls a deaf person to pray on his behalf.

person A knows he is deaf.

person A does makes no other attempt to get his attention.

person A knows everything is dependant on Allah.

Is this shirk? If yes how?

you are contradicting urself

tell me is it necessary for u to tell the deaf to pray for you? whats the percentage of deaf on the earth? if u feel like u dont want to attempt to draw his attention then dont........

i didnt say its a shirk, to ask a deaf to pray for you and to ask a dead man "ya ali madad" who himself never said that people should ask him to pray on his behalf totally a different image.

the deaf is alive and if the deaf cant hear then dotn ask him to pray, a deaf could be my father, or my mother, brother or a member of my family so simply i can ask him/her to pray for my success, it doesnt mean i worship him or i took him/her as intermediary, i simply requested after he/she finishes pray he will supplicate and i will be counted in his supplication.........for example by gesturing if i requested a member of my family or the closest one whos deaf that plz pray for my coming midterm, and after he or she finishes the prayer whether it be a magrhrib, asar, zuhor he supplicates like " ya Allah help this xxx to pass in his mid term" its not a shirk

well i can also perform the prayer and ask Allah the same "Ya Allah help me pass my mid term" well its not always necessary for me to ask anyone to pray for me.

now let me be more clear its about supplication, i dont ask the deaf to pray maghrib salah for me, i ask him to supplicate for me which i can also do myself. therefore its not compulsory to ask anyone to supplicate for me

when u are inflicted in the calamity you pray and supplicate for help to Allah, simple.

you must understand the ettiquettes of debate and know that not always is responding to a question answering a question.

for instance, i may ask you what is one plus one and you will reply with any number (hopefully number two). this is an answer.

however, if i ask you what is one plus one and you reply with everything but a number, then this is not an answer to the question but a response to the question. this is precisely what your are doing now.

you are clearly unable to prove that saying ya ali is shirk.

but i will give u another chance to ANSWER my question:

person A calls a deaf person to pray on his behalf.

person A knows he is deaf.

person A does makes no other attempt to get his attention.

person A knows everything is dependant on Allah.

Is this shirk? If yes how?

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you must understand the ettiquettes of debate and know that not always is responding to a question answering a question.

Thanks

you are clearly unable to prove that saying ya ali is shirk.

e-jurrrasic, abu_osama and myself posted to this regard, unless u close ur eyes u can see it clearly it is proved

but i will give u another chance to ANSWER my question

you insulted me by saying that u are giving me a chance? this is a discussion forum, everybody is entitled to reply, nobody gives chances to noone

person A calls a deaf person to pray on his behalf.

person A knows he is deaf.

person A does makes no other attempt to get his attention.

person A knows everything is dependant on Allah.

Is this shirk? If yes how?

i told you in my previous post this is not a shirk when u think everyone should depend only to Allah alone. so "Ya Allah Madad"

wassalam

Edited by mkafil
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person A calls a deaf person to pray on his behalf.

person A knows he is deaf.

person A does makes no other attempt to get his attention.

person A knows everything is dependant on Allah.

Is this shirk? If yes how?

i told you in my previous post this is not a shirk when u think everyone should depend only to Allah alone. so "Ya Allah Madad"

wassalam

subhanAllah.

If you say person A in the example above did not committ shirk than no longer can you say it is shirk to say Ya Ali.

case closed my friend.

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i told you in my previous post this is not a shirk when u think everyone should depend only to Allah alone. so "Ya Allah Madad"

wassalam

subhanAllah.

If you say person A in the example above did not committ shirk than no longer can you say it is shirk to say Ya Ali.

case closed my friend.

Yes consider me as person A and im in a financial problem, i asked for help to a deaf friend,

option A: i know my friend is deaf cannot hear and i try my best to let him know im in financial crisis

Option b: i dont care to let him know coz hes deaf so i seek for another friend to help

all the same no shirk committed, a human help for humans

this help is human needs to a human, it is therefore not a shirk, i know utlimately it is the one who cures our problem is Allah alone, so when i find myself in the prayer mat i ask Allah to solve my financial problem.

as regard to ya ali, well do you say ya ali or ya ali madad? which expression u use when u face a problem, i see almost everyone is saying ya ali madad, whats the problem for you to say ya Allah madad instead of using ya ali madad. well i can also say ya ali, ya ali it doesnt make me commiting shirk, becoz its just an expression which is indicating someone ali(ra) nor i am asking here for help, i still do not find any difference between a christian calling jesus for help and a shia calling ali for help

im asking you the only helper is Allah then why not ya Allah madad, why ya ali madad?

to whom do you call upon when u face problem?

Edited by mkafil
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salam alaykum.

brother,

1. can u please learn how to quote properly. u quoted your words as mine.

2. your doing it again, your responding to my question but you are not answering my question.

3. address the example i provided:

person A calls a deaf person to pray on his behalf.

person A knows he is deaf.

person A makes no other attempt to get his attention.

person A knows everything is dependant on Allah.

Has Person A in THIS EXAMPLE committed shirk?

brother let me help you...

No, Person A in the example did not committ shirk because ...... (insert your comments here)

or

Yes, Person A in the example committed shirk because ...... (insert your comments here)

Edited by revolutionary guard 1979
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Walaykum salam my dear brother

brother,

1. can u please learn how to quote properly. u quoted your words as mine.

hmmm you could have said "brother u did mistake quoting words, i know how to quote but i commited a mistake so i apologize for it.

2. your doing it again, your responding to my question but you are not answering my question.

what am i doing?? whats the topic here "ya ali Madad and shirk" well what is responding and answering? didnt i answer your questions in my posts and even u were rejoiced saying

"subhanallah" it means u got your answer right? so why asking the same questions again, as regard to my questions that i posted last, i need answer plz

3. address the example i provided:

your example reviewed and answered in my posts, re read it carefully.

person A calls a deaf person to pray on his behalf.

person A knows he is deaf.

person A makes no other attempt to get his attention.

person A knows everything is dependant on Allah.

Has Person A in THIS EXAMPLE committed shirk?

No, Person A in the example did not committ shirk because ...... (insert your comments here)

because read my last post again, i simply cant waste my time answering the same questions again and again, your example of person A is clearly indicating that the character "deaf" man is alive, let me help you my brother your analogy is totally incorrect becoz u are comparing Ali(ra) with a deaf whos alive while Ali(ra) is dead.

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because read my last post again, i simply cant waste my time answering the same questions again and again, your example of person A is clearly indicating that the character "deaf" man is alive, let me help you my brother your analogy is totally incorrect becoz u are comparing Ali(ra) with a deaf whos alive while Ali(ra) is dead.

either things need to be explained to you more than the usual person or your intentionally ignoring the point im making because had you paid any attention to it you will realise your blind support for the Salafi opposition to intercession is inherently flawed and completely devoid of any validity.

here is the typical dialogue on this topic you will find between any shia and sunni:

salafi: "ya Shia, say ya Allah not ya Ali"

shia: "dont say ya Shia say ya Allah"

salafi: "you are alive"

shia: "so are shaheed"

salafi: "alive with Allah but not alive in this world, they cannot help you"

shia: "so because im asking help from someone that allegedly is unable help this is shirk?"

hence this is why i gave you the following example which you failed to answer:

person A calls a deaf person to pray on his behalf.

person A knows he is deaf.

person A makes no other attempt to get his attention.

person A knows everything is dependant on Allah.

Has Person A in THIS EXAMPLE committed shirk?

allow me to answer it...

no, person A did not committ shirk because

1. person A knows everything is dependant on Allah and all help ultimately derives from Him, that no one or thing can do anything without the permission of Allah.

however, had person A believed the power to help was inherent in the blind man himself than this would constitute shirk because he has set up a rival to Allah for he believes the blind man's help is independant from Allah.

2. seeking help from someone not able to help can never be categorised as shirk. it can be categorised as stupid. but stupidity alone is not shirk.

now saying ya Ali is not stupid because there is ample evidence in the Quran and Sunnah that the righteous servants of Allah are aware of our actions and because they are aware of our actions and are with Allah then they are clearly in a position to help!

but the reason for the above example was to show that even if they werent in a position to help its still not shirk!

may Allah guide the sincere.

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salam

here is the typical dialogue on this topic you will find between any shia and sunni:

salafi: "ya Shia, say ya Allah not ya Ali"

salafi: "ya Shia, say ya Allah not ya Ali"

shia: "dont say ya Shia say ya Allah"

salafi: "you are alive"

shia: "so are shaheed"

salafi: "alive with Allah but not alive in this world, they cannot help you"

shia: "so because im asking help from someone that allegedly is unable help this is shirk?"

im not a salafi, kalafi, balafi zalafi

Im a Muslim, i dont belong to any sect , neither i belong to shia Islam nor a sunni Islam, Our religion is simple and clear "Islam " and "Muslim".....FULL stop

Theres no classification Of Islam, thers only Islam in Islam

Prophet Mohammed(sm) wasnt a sunni Muslim nor he was a shia Muslim, any of the companion of the Prophet during that time wasnt sunni muslim nor shia Muslim, Ali(ra), Umar(ra) bilal(ra) whoever all were Muslim only

hence this is why i gave you the following example which you failed to answer:

im sorry my dear brother if you think i failed.

person A calls a deaf person to pray on his behalf.

person A knows he is deaf.

person A makes no other attempt to get his attention.

person A knows everything is dependant on Allah.

Has Person A in THIS EXAMPLE committed shirk?

I clarified very clearly with broad explanation.

seeking help from someone not able to help can never be categorised as shirk. it can be categorised as stupid. but stupidity alone is not shirk.

i agree stupidity is not a shirk, but when someone find out his stupidity which is shirk and continue it then it is shirk.

now saying ya Ali is not stupid because there is ample evidence in the Quran and Sunnah that the righteous servants of Allah are aware of our actions and because they are aware of our actions and are with Allah then they are clearly in a position to help!

They may be Alive, if this is the case then most righteous of righteous is Prophet Mohammed(sm) then u could have said "ya Mohammed madad"(astaffurullah) for help, not Ali(ra)

however give those ayat from the Qur'an and explain it plz my brother, and dear brother any haddeth whether it is mentioned in the bukhari or wherever contradicts with Quranic verse then it is to be thrown. Qur'an is the word of Allah(swt) and with 100% accurate.

Theres only one who can help us and it is Only Allah(swt) not any human being no matter how righteous they could be, they may alive as soul never dies, but can they hear? are they aware of our actions? can they help? then why not Allah(swt) mentioned anywhere that ask help from me and also to those who are my righteous servants.

and if there is evidence then there were many righteous servants of Allah(swt), so logically we should call upon everyones name "ya xxx Madad" ya lll madad" "ya jesus madad" ya nabi madad" wwhy only "ya ali madad"

whats the problem saying "ya Allah madad" whats the problem seeking help directly from Allah, whats the problem if u dont say this word "ya ali madad" will he punish you on the day of judgement?

may Allah guide the sincere.

Alhamdulliah im overjoyed as you are seeking help from Allah(swt) for my guidance, May Allah reward you my dear brother, may you also be guided, ameen

Edited by mkafil
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  • 14 years later...
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On 12/4/2006 at 3:52 AM, ejurrasic said:

 

if you believe you can invoke to ali by saying ya ali madad ,then yo have to accept christian invoking by saying ya jesus madad.

 

4 hours ago, Cool said:

This is a 2006's thread, I am reviving it because we are facing the same arguments in 2021. 

I will respond to OP. 

Can you answer the comment above?

 

Are Christians allowed to call upon nabi Eissa as intercession? 
many Christians don’t believe he is god but just a mediator. 
 

———-

hope this helps you. 
muhammad came for the main purpose to spread the one ness of Allah. 
never taught to need a middle man. 
 

A Shia can still love Imam Ali and NOT call himself a Shia. You would be just a same muslim as the prophet Muhammad. But by using Ali as a mediator you are not following the correct fundamental education Muhammad preached. 
 

common sense really. But it’s normal

human nature to follow what we are told. NOT BASHING ANYONE SORRY IF IT SOUNDS DISRESPECTFUL. 

ALLAH KNOWS BEST

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