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In the Name of God بسم الله
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Ya Mahdi Madad

Womens Rights

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(bismillah)

(salam)

I typed up such a long answer to the womens rights debate (Imam Ali (as)) so when I was posting it returned with topic closed. I feel this made no sense, only because some people disagree doesn't mean it has to be closed, yes I admit it may have been getting a bit hot in there but the original question was genuine

Anyway here's my reply below, feel free to merge it to that and then close this thread. I just wanted to get my point across that's all, not to start world war III.

WS

(bismillah)

(salam)

Not that I really want to comment, I can't really help myself as this topic has been done to death, here and socially.

I've also heard that the Nahjul Balagha is not 100% authentic...and to be honest no book is other than the Quran, so there is room for misunderstandings/misquotes in NB.

However if looked at realistically, it is hard for women that don't have any problems with their memory during their menses etc to accept views like this that may sound like we are inferior to men.

So I can see both sides here. The fact is women are not inferior to men and I don't think Imam Ali (as) would say something demeaning about women but if looked in contect when our Holy Prophet (pbuh) went on the Mehraj isn't there that famous saying that the Prophet (pbuh) saw more women in hell for various reasons like not pleasing their husbands, not covering themselves etc etc.

I'm generalising here but there are many women whom we can say are [Edited Out]y in nature and no don't start saying 'i'm not' etc. I'm not saying all women are but we have all met girls who are manipulating, create friction amongst others and are very petty over the most stupidess things. Perhaps that is the nature of women in general, I don't know. But the fact is we are emotional creatures and around the time of p's many women (it's like 1 in 3 women) suffer from PMS, meaning having irritable, moody, emotional behaviour just before their periods, this is because hormones go pretty crazy in women at the time of their periods.

Perhaps Imam Ali (as) was saying all this because of the symptoms of women who have p's, I don't know but it's likely. As for forgetfullness and education it's prob cos of this time too, even when a woman is pregnant women her hormones are erratic and sometimes memory and consentration can get slightly effected after child birth. It doesn't affect all women but there are some.

And to say all women get their p's this is not true at all. Some women do not get their periods regularly or almost non existent and they may have problems with reproduction and their are some women who get their periods regularly but also have problems with reproduction but either way they are governed by erratic hormone behaviour which means women who do get their periods and those that don't, both have psychological grievances.

And women being compared to scorpions, this too is metaphorical but is somewhat true, women are sweet and the bloke is usually too naive to see what the woman is doing. I'm not talking in terms of jadoo or magic in anyway but I'm sure we've all or some of us can recall women who are very sweet in the outside but absolutely venomous on the inside.

The fact here is to try to comprehend what Imam Ali (as) is saying one (esp a woman) has to look at it from a far and assess what Imam Ali (as) is saying. He's not generalising all women - or perhaps he is, perhaps all women do have these traits within them somewhere along their life but the hardest thing for a woman to do is accept her faults.

I am not saying we dumb, uneducated, slaves to men etc. We are not, Allah SWT gave us a brain and the Prophet (pbuh) has ordained that women should be educated etc but there are times when us women are slightly weak compared to men. We are equal to men but different and this because we are physically, mentally and emotionally different. There is nothing wrong in accepting this at all. Because we are different.

But we women are all different too, some of us are very girly, some of us are very tom boyish some are somewhere in the middle but we all identify with something in common somewhere along the lines. Same with blokes they are not all the same but somewhere along the lines they too have something in common.

People think I'm feminist cos I speak up for women's right's etc but that doesn't mean that I have the right to dismiss something only cos 'I'm not like that' we women tend to get emotional when we feel someone is attacking our intelligence etc. And that 's fine to stand up to but we are not dumb bimbo's and I'm sure Imam Ali (as) knows that too.

Sometimes we need to emotionally detach ourselves from these sayings etc and think about them more rationally.

Remember we can not understand everything in Islam and sometimes you will find with age and experience you will understand those very things that were nagging you better over time.

Islam is a beautiful religion that gives women and men rights, equal but different and that's what we have to remember.

Women are not inferior to men. If we were we wouldn't have a great role model, a woman of substance, the beloved lady Zainab (sa), if it wasn't for her (sa) we really would be lost, she (sa) fought against all odds, spoke her(sa) mind out in the darbar of the king (la) of that time etc. I mean she (sa) led all the women, a leader in her (sa) own right, so who's saying lady Zainab (sa) is inferior? Who would say it? No-one with a right mind would accuse lady Zainab (sa) for being inferior. So this proves we are not insignifant compared to men.

The problem with todays society is for far too long men have been degrading women from household servants to sex slaves but it's our duties as women to see look at the best examples and follow their foot steps to realise, yes at times we are emotional but thats the way Allah SWT has made us but he still has given us the right to think hasn't He? Where Allah SWT has given men the right to men to inherit more He's (SWT) given women the right to demand payment for upkeep of household, Allah SWT has said He (SWT) forgives women literally half of her sin's (perhaps more - i can't remember the hadith correctly) during child birth, He SWT tells men who marry will safeguard half of their religion etc. preventing them from further sins etc.

There are always two sides to a coin, where we might (as women) think we are being persecuted or exploited or demeaned, Islam has safe guarded women to such an extent that I feel at times that us women have more rights than men. The problem is that society has always made women look like she's useless and just there for sexual pleasure.

But if men start valuing women as prescribed in Islamic law then the picture will start getting better. But we women have a jihad on our hands to stand up for our rights. But if we don't, then yes men will continue to abuse women's rights just like they have done for centuries.

It's probably befitting here to end with a point that if our Holy Prohet (pbuh) came here with the message of akhlaq for all, Imam Ali (as) came here with the message of justice. They both (as) stood for both these things with honesty.

Again I doubt Imam Ali (as) would say something against women that conflicted with both those things.

As for the question of polygamy, it's allowed in Islam only if a man can give justice to his wives, if not then only one wife is highly recommended. The need for polygamous marriages happened when more men were dying in wars and women were left unmarried. If it was the other way round (to my knowledge something practiced in south India) how is a woman supposed to know which child belongs to which father? And the psychological/emotional problems that come with that. That's why women are not allowed to have more than one husband at one time! Plus would a woman want to have more than one husband lol!

Learn to respect each other and love each other but remember your rights and rights of others.

Anywayz that's my 2p

Take care all

WS

your sister in Islam

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I am so praying an extra long dua for you! You said everything I wanted explained, and reinforced it two fold.

If looked at realistically, it is hard for women that don't have any problems with their memory during their menses etc to accept views like this that may sound like we are inferior to men...

I don't think Imam Ali (as) would say something demeaning about women

...

I am not saying we dumb, uneducated, slaves to men etc. We are not, Allah SWT gave us a brain and the Prophet (pbuh) has ordained that women should be educated etc but there are times when us women are slightly weak compared to men. We are equal to men but different and this because we are physically, mentally and emotionally different. There is nothing wrong in accepting this at all. Because we are different.

But we women are all different too, some of us are very girly, some of us are very tom boyish some are somewhere in the middle but we all identify with something in common somewhere along the lines. Same with blokes they are not all the same but somewhere along the lines they too have something in common.

Islam is a beautiful religion that gives women and men rights, equal but different and that's what we have to remember.

Women are not inferior to men. If we were we wouldn't have a great role model, a woman of substance, the beloved lady Zainab (sa), if it wasn't for her (sa) we really would be lost, she (sa) fought against all odds, spoke her(sa) mind out in the darbar of the king (la) of that time etc. I mean she (sa) led all the women, a leader in her (sa) own right, so who's saying lady Zainab (sa) is inferior? Who would say it? No-one with a right mind would accuse lady Zainab (sa) for being inferior. So this proves we are not insignifant compared to men.

Where Allah SWT has given men the right to men to inherit more He's (SWT) given women the right to demand payment for upkeep of household, Allah SWT has said He (SWT) forgives women literally half of her sin's (perhaps more - i can't remember the hadith correctly) during child birth, He SWT tells men who marry will safeguard half of their religion etc. preventing them from further sins etc.

There are always two sides to a coin, where we might (as women) think we are being persecuted or exploited or demeaned, Islam has safe guarded women to such an extent that I feel at times that us women have more rights than men. The problem is that society has always made women look like she's useless and just there for sexual pleasure.

But if men start valuing women as prescribed in Islamic law then the picture will start getting better. But we women have a jihad on our hands to stand up for our rights. But if we don't, then yes men will continue to abuse women's rights just like they have done for centuries.

Just one thing: I believe that all muslims are feminist. Islam and feminism are both against racism, classism, lookism, agism, and of course the all-time sexism. I do not believe we should be equal in each and every given aspect. I do believe that we are of equal worth, that if a woman choses to stay home and if her husband goes out to work everyday, they equally contribute to the household. Capitalism is the driving force that makes money-earners more important, because capitalism is based on monetary flow. I believe a stay at home wife doesnt make $$ but is still equal to her husband.

whoa, tangent back to relevant context:

As for the question of polygamy, it's allowed in Islam only if a man can give justice to his wives, if not then only one wife is highly recommended. The need for polygamous marriages happened when more men were dying in wars and women were left unmarried. If it was the other way round (to my knowledge something practiced in south India) how is a woman supposed to know which child belongs to which father? And the psychological/emotional problems that come with that. That's why women are not allowed to have more than one husband at one time! Plus would a woman want to have more than one husband lol!

Yeah, i'd never even consider having more than one husband.

but can a man love (truly care for) more than one woman? how can you be in love with mutliple partners?

why is polygamy still allowed? the battle happened 1400 years ago... the ratio of men to women has just about evened out.

Oh, yes, I should add one thing:

Please observe respect when replying. we will come to nothing if our aim is to insult each other and not help each other come to a higher level of iman and understanding. I really do want to learn about women and Islam and it is a bit hard when these threads are closed off.

Jazakallah khairan!

-SN- :D

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Guest blessedflower

(bismillah) (salam)

Had women been inferior to men they would not have been ordered to obey their mothers because heaven lies at their feet (the mothers). Had women been inferior they would not have been given the crown of motherhood at all - let alone be given the responsibility along with the intelligence and aptitude of raising a whole society of men and women.

That said, we know very well that a father's duty is to earn money while a mother looks after her kids from point A to Z as in what they need to wear and when (shopping months earlier for warmer clothes before winter actually arrives so her kids won't catch a cold - and those horrific thoughts that come in her mind thinking of her kids falling ill just incase she doesn't buy the warm clothes in time before winter or sudden weather changes ->> THAT APPLIES TO HER WORRISOME THOUGHTS FOR A FOOLISH HUSBAND TOO WHO CANNOT WEAR A FREAKING JACKET IN COLD WEATHER AND COMES HOME WITH A GOD DARNED FLU) to what they need to eat and what kinda school they need to go. No no no no no I'm not saying fathers don't partake in any of these activities I'm only saying it's the mother who is gnawed at by worries regarding these things for her family whereas the hubby is gnawed at by the worries of his wallet. So you do the math - who worries more? And may I mention the troubles of the womb when the baby is inside his/her mother? In what way can you portray women as inferior to men when THEY are the ones who produce both men and women? A man is dependant upon a woman to pass on his genes by producing a child. Same can be said of women but women need only a nutfah they can even get a donated one (let's not get into the halal and haram of that I'm just stating a fact) whereas a man needs the woman's womb and her body to carry his child. And to me that doesnt' make women inferior to men, to say the least..

Regarding the scorpion comparison there are two related issues that need to be focused on. Women, on one hand (NOT IN GENERAL but rather a certain percentage) do have that cunning nature where they'd trap a man into their web and make him do things that he doesn't want to. Example, an intentionally under-dressed woman trying to seduce a married man who has little control over his urges though he tries to remain faithful to his wife. This cunning nature can be applied in other scenarios too.

However women in general have an upper hand when it comes to both sexes as they have the power, the tool of attracting a man and keeping them under their control YET they are sweet and kind towards their men as well.

A good analogy might be: a woman who's blessed with lots of attraction (physical beauty as well as grace), her husband is alomst slave to her in every way. This woman observes hijab outside from all namehram men fully knowing the strength that she has (the physical beauty). Yet at the same time she's kind and loving towards her husband who is also faithful to her AND also WILLINGLY forgives his mistakes no matter how harsh or hurtful they may have been, being fully aware of the fact that if she so desires she can have any man she wants to if she decides to leave her husband. Still she decides to be with him and is sweet and kind to him in everyway. In that sense you can say she's a scorpion (powerful) yet her grip is sweet.

Point being this saying can be interpretted in many ways and can fit many women's situations perfectly, and doesn't neccessarily portray ALL women from Hawa (as) down to a newly blossomed woman of the 21st century.

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salam,

(1) first of all, there is a difference between a wife and a mother. If a man needs a wife to tell him its too cold to be without a coat, i have to feel doubt of his mental capability to have a wife in the first place.

it takes two people to make a kid; it takes two people to raise a kid. women should not feel sole responsibility for childcare. women should not feel more guilty than men if the child becomes ill. women should not feel that men are clueless when it comes to childcare, bc this only increases their own work load and adds stress to marital and family relations.

Dont know if this is relevant, but how old was Bibi Fatema when Bibi Khadeja passed away?

(2) I do not believe in domination (either men over women or women over men), no matter how "well-intentioned." No one should have power over another individual, save our Lord, Master of the universe, and His messengers. I do, however, believe that well-intentioned, caring, loving relationships do exist and are the happiest.

(3) I do hope your "analogy" (which I think is actually an example) is mutual. If she forgives his harshest and most hurtful deeds, he should do the same. And she should feel as intensely attracted to him and he is to her; he should keep hijab from namehram women as she does from namehram men.

anyone come up with anything about polygamy?

Salam! :)

Edited by SNaqvi1214

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Guest blessedflower
salam,

(1) first of all, there is a difference between a wife and a mother. If a man needs a wife to tell him its too cold to be without a coat, i have to feel doubt of his mental capability to have a wife in the first place.

it takes two people to make a kid; it takes two people to raise a kid. women should not feel sole responsibility for childcare. women should not feel more guilty than men if the child becomes ill. women should not feel that men are clueless when it comes to childcare, bc this only increases their own work load and adds stress to marital and family relations.

Dont know if this is relevant, but how old was Bibi Fatema when Bibi Khadeja passed away?

(2) I do not believe in domination (either men over women or women over men), no matter how "well-intentioned." No one should have power over another individual, save our Lord, Master of the universe, and His messengers. I do, however, believe that well-intentioned, caring, loving relationships do exist and are the happiest.

(3) I do hope your "analogy" (which I think is actually an example) is mutual. If she forgives his harshest and most hurtful deeds, he should do the same. And she should feel as intensely attracted to him and he is to her; he should keep hijab from namehram women as she does from namehram men.

anyone come up with anything about polygamy?

Salam! :)

(bismillah) (salam)

The three points you mentioned do fill in the blanks that were left by my post. However I was only mentioning some scenarios but by the woman being powerful I didn't mean she should be dominating. And as for your point number one that was just another example that though men and women both partake in the responsibility of child making and child raring women have indeed been given the higher status in the sense that they are mothers and must be respected more then the fathers (when it comes to obedience). That rule goes only to neutralize the usual abnormal thinking that women are inferior to men and that daddy can dominate mom and only he has to be listened (again, just a minor example from some of the cases seen in desi communities).

Both men and women are equal before their lord only on the day of Judgement people will be risen by their mother's name. So women gain the upper hand there as well. That DOES NOT go to show that either gender should DOMINATE the other. It's just so men won't go around boasting ''the father's name is passed on thru generations and not the mothers so it shows Allah swt prefers men over women''...etc.

And as for point number three which has been emboldened by stating that the husband is almost slave to her in many ways did not mean (though it may have sounded) that the woman should not be intensely attracted to him as well. And the part ''almost slave to her'' also meant though I hadn't verbalized the thought that the husband also observes hijab in the sense of keeping his gaze lowered, etc. However I had pointed out one factor only [being fully aware of the fact that if she so desires she can have any man she wants to if she decides to leave her husband. Still she decides to be with him and is sweet and kind to him in everyway. In that sense you can say she's a scorpion (powerful) yet her grip is sweet] because in this case we were discussing the possible scenarios where the woman can be compared to a scorpion.

I had not meant to emphasize an islamically disbalanced married life. :)

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