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SNaqvi1214

Imam Ali (sexist?) Khutba

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Salaam aleikoem

I have found something about the witness of women and men...

According to today’s Muslim scholars and leaders, women are not fit to rule or hold any office of significance because God has indicated that they are deficient when compared to men. The Muslim scholars will tell you that in the Quran God has made the testimony of ONE man equal to that of TWO women because women are forgetful and emotionally driven.

Any sane and rational person who has worked or studied with women will know that they can be just as smart, if not smarter, than most of their male counterparts. At the same time, I have yet to find this fictional woman who forgets or whose memory is weaker than a man’s (we all wish this was the case sometimes). Let us examine the verse where all these unequal and sexist conclusions have been drawn:

"Oh you who believe, if you borrow until a delayed period then you will write it amongst you, and let he who is an official record keeper write between you, and let him not refuse to write as God has commanded it. And when he writes, let he who has borrowed give the details of the transaction and he shall fear his Lord God and not omit anything. If the one who has borrowed is not fit, or if he is weak, or if he can’t complete the information; then let he who is responsible for him fill-in on his behalf. And you shall have TWO witnesses from your men, and if they are not two men then let them be ONE man and TWO women from those whose testimony you accept, so if one of them is mis-guided <Tudhil>, then one will remind the other….." (2/282)

The word used in 2:282 which has caused the misunderstanding of the witnessing requirement is 'Tudhil'.

-Khalifa has translated this as: 'biased'.

-Yusif Ali used: 'errs'.

There are also a few translations which used: 'forgets'.

The word for 'forgets' in Arabic is 'Tansa/Nasi'...Thus we can rule out this possibility from the start.

'Dhal' is used in opposition to 'Huda' (guidance)...Thus its prime translation could be 'Misguided'.

"You guide (Tahdi )whom you will, and you misguide (Tidhil) whom you will'.

Its derivative is also used in Sura # 1, Al-Fatiha (Al-Dhaleen) - Those who are misguided.

Another diravitave is 'Dhilal/Dhil' which means 'Shade' (area without complete light).

Thus, looking at 2:282 we can say:

"If you cannot find, then one man and two women FROM WHO'S TESTIMONY IS ACCEPTABLE TO YOU. If one of them is 'Tudhil', then one will remind the other..." (2:282)

Please note that the issue of 'honesty/Biastness' is not at question since the choice of witnesses has to be of people who are already acceptable or honest.

We also said that 'Forgetfullnes' is not a possible translation.

Tudhil = Becomes Misguided / Lost / Shaded.

A clearer undertsanding of 2:282 taes place when we analyze the steps involved:

1. If there is a finacial transaction involving debt between two or more parties and whose repayment will be at a later stage, then it must be documented.

2. The documentation of such a transaction is to be done through an official record keeper or institution.

3. The one who has borrowed the debt will be the one giving the record keeper the details of the transaction as he/she will put his signature or print on the document.

4. If the one who has borrowed is incapacitated for any reason from giving information, then his/her guardian shall take such responsibility.

5. Two witnesses are required to seal the transaction.

6. It is preferable that the two witnesses be males, but if that is not possible then one man and two women will suffice.

7. At the time of testimony ONLY TWO witnesses are required, if one of the women is incapacitated then the other must take her place.

The question we should all ask ourselves is "What would cause one of the women to be 'mis-guided' in her testimony?".

The answer is obvious: the key difference between men and women is their physiology. Women give birth and men don’t, women must rest for a lengthy period after child birth while men don’t, women as mothers must suckle their children while men don't, women have menstrual cycles which incapacitate there movement somewhat while men don’t. These differences exist as a matter of physical fact and have nothing to do with intellegence or will.

It is obvious from the Quran that God calls on TWO witnesses to be present (this is clear from the sequence of words in the verse). God being the knower and creator of all things knows that having one man and one women as a witness is not practical since on the day they are called the women may be incapacitated while the man may not, and since God calls on TWO witnesses, then the chances of having both present becomes much higher when TWO women and ONE man are selected so at the time of calling there are three people to choose from (please note that had God meant that the testimony of ONE man equals TWO women then He would have continued the verse and said: If TWO women and One man are not available then you shall select FOUR women).

This precious Quran speaks of nothing but fairness and equality for both men and women, yet it is the evil wishes of those who have corrupted the religion to turn It into a book that serves their own purposes and desires.

Please note: Other than 'future financial transactions' listed in 2:282, the testimony of 1 woman = 1 man as can be seen:

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way." (Verse 4:15)

"And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-" (Verse 24:4)

In-fact, there is even one instance where the testimony of a woman OVERRIDES that of a man!:

"And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth; And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie; And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth." (Verses 24:6-9)

May God increase our knowledge and grant us wisdom.

As for the deficiency of their shares that is becuase of their share in inheritance being half of men.

Salaam aleikoem

A man is obligated to pay for everything for his wife...

her food, her clothes everything... so it's normal that a man gets more money in case of inheritance

ws

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Can someone comment on this particular line?

Be on your gaurd even from those of them who are good. Do not obey them even in good things so that they may attract you to evils.

And this..

Women are concerned with the adnornments of this ignoble life and the creation of mischief herein.
Edited by Mohsin

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(salam)

He says that not to say of bad things but even if they say in regard to some good things it should not be done in a way that these should feel as if it is being done in pursuance of their wish, but rather in a way that they should realise that the good act has been performed because of its being good and that their pleasure or wish has nothing to do with it. If they have even the doubt that their pleasures has been kept in view in it they would slowly increase in their demands and would wish that they should be obeyed in all matters however evil, the inevitable consequence whereof will be destruction and ruin. ash-Shaikh Muhammad Abduh writes about this view of Ameerul Momineen as under:

Ameerul Momineen has said a thing which is corroborated by experiences of centuries.

there are many instances also in the quran where Allah refers to people men or woman as hypocrites or fasiqs etc , but that wouldnt mean all the men and women , just because the word women is used doesnt mean alll , as we know the word is generally used , and this was right after the war with ayesha thus refering to what she did , they folowed her in whatever they thought was good , and then in the end she turned them to evil war against Imam Ali (as)

how hard is that ? even the second statement is refering to what she has done

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Salam alukum

Man I don't think your hardcore enuff SNaqvi1214 , If you were hardcore enuff you would've knew who the Imam meant in his Khutbaa. :)

If the arabic is saying NISA then it means women as a whole, which I think is what the "piece of paper" says

If you use logic, Imam ali would have NEVER said this about women, as we all know how him and Fatima (as) were living together.

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Salam all,

quote from Nahjul Balagha, 79th sermon:

"O' ye peoples! Women are deficient in Faith, deficient in shares, and deficient in intelligence. As regards the deficiency in their faith, it is the abstention from prayers and fasting during their menstrual period. As regards deficiency in their intelligence it is becuase the evidence of two women is equal to that of one man. As for the deficiency of their shares that is becuase of their share in inheritance being half of men. So beware of evils of women. Be on your gaurd even from those of them who are (reportedly) good. Do not obey them even in good things so that they may attract you to evils."

As a woman, I think it is a bit obvious why I feel... hurt by this. I asked a mulana about this, (who became extremely uncomfortable) and said that I "should not worry about this khutba, that it was just targeted at Ayesha."

If that is the case, then why would the Imam call ALL women defective, and not just Ayesha?

Also, there is another sermon that he calls on Ayesha by name (sermon 155)--not literally, but rather as "that woman". Why couldnt he just do the same for the above one as well?

In yet another sermon,

"Beasts are concerned with their bellies. Carnivores are concerned with assaulting others. Women are concerned with the adnornments of this ignoble life and the creation of mischief herein. On the otherhand, believers are humble, believers are admonishers and believers are afraid of Allah."

I dont mean to sound whiny, but why are women included in "the believers"?!?!

Perhaps I should ask what I want to know:

Can anyone explain Imam Ali's 79th sermon, (the first in this post) ?? and while we're at it, how can we claim Islam is based on equality while we allow men to be polygomous, men to inherit more, and men to count more (in terms of giving witness) ?

Why do Islamic texts reflect the Christian theme of "Evil Eve"? (i.e. not that Eve was in fact evil, but that women brought the downfall on men.)

I have always been a "hardcore shia" and have respected Imam Ali a.s. all my life; reading these sermons made me feel... well... :cry:

Salamu'alaykam!

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I have always been a "hardcore shia" and have respected Imam Ali a.s. all my life; reading these sermons made me feel... well... :cry:

Salamu'alaykam!

First of all, i would like to say that when you use any sort of wording about our Holy Leaders in Faith, 12 Imam or 14 Masomeen, think very deeply before you use such words.

About this Khutba, before making any comment, contact your local Aalim in mosque and they will explain to you what are reason for the wording used by Mola.

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(salam)

men and women are equall , but that doesnt mean that what they have we must have , they are equal in having different things , women have benefits men dont have and vice versa....

ok now to the sermon , this is sermon 78 not 79 , and it clearly says ,

After the battle of Jamal, Ameerul Momineen (A.S.) said about women:

and this is the explanation of this sermon which makes complete sense , did you bother looking for explanation ?

Ameerul Momineen delivered this sermon after the devastation created by the Battle of Jamal. Since the devastation resulting from this battle was the outcome of blindly following a woman's command, in this sermon he has described women's physical defects and their causes and effects. Thus their first weakness is that for a few days in every month they have to abstain from prayer and fasting, and this abstention from worship is a proof of their deficiency in Faith. Although the real meaning of `iman (belief) is heart-felt testimony and inner conviction yet metaphorically it also applies to action and character. Since actions are the reflection of Belief they are also regarded as part of Belief. Thus, it is related from Imam Ali ibn Musa ar-Riza (p.b.u.t.) that:

`iman (belief) is testimony at heart, admission by the tongue and action by the limbs.

The second weakness is that their natural propensities do not admit of full performance of their intelligence. Therefore, nature has given them the power of intelligence only in accordance with the scope of their activities which can guide them in pregnancy, delivery, child nursing, child care and house-hold affairs. On the basis of this weakness of mind and intelligence their evidence has not been accorded the status of man's evidence, as Allah says:

. . . then call to witness two witnesses from among your men and if there not be two men then (take) a man and two women, of those ye approve of the witnesses, so that should one of the two (women) forget the (second) one of the two may remind the other... (Quran, 2:282)

The third weakness is that their share in inheritance is half of man's share in inheritance as the Quran says:

Allah enjoineth you about your children. The male shall have the equal of the shares of two females...(4:11)

This shows woman's weakness because the reason for her share in inheritance being half is that the liability of her maintenance rests on man. When man's position is that of a maintainer and care taker the status of the weaker sex who is in need of maintenance and care-taking is evident.

After describing their natural weakness, Ameerul Momineen points out the mischief of blindly following them and wrongly obeying them. He says that not to say of bad things but even if they say in regard to some good things it should not be done in a way that these should feel as if it is being done in pursuance of their wish, but rather in a way that they should realise that the good act has been performed because of its being good and that their pleasure or wish has nothing to do with it. If they have even the doubt that their pleasures has been kept in view in it they would slowly increase in their demands and would wish that they should be obeyed in all matters however evil, the inevitable consequence whereof will be destruction and ruin. ash-Shaikh Muhammad Abduh writes about this view of Ameerul Momineen as under:

Ameerul Momineen has said a thing which is corroborated by experiences of centuries.

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I only want to know that are there any hadiths by RasulAllah (saw) that describe women in such a way as Imam did?

I remember someone quoting a saying of Imam jafar sadiq (as) which says something like 'don't follow the advice of women even if she says the right thing' I am not sure about it's authenticity though.

Edited by Mohsin

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(salam)

brother iranwarrior in that case , do you consider sayeda Maryam (as) higher in status than Sayeda Fatimatul Zahra (as) ?

quran clearly states sayedat nisa

æóÅöÐú ÞóÇáóÊö ÇáúãóáÇóÆößóÉõ íóÇ ãóÑúíóãõ Åöäøó Çááøåó ÇÕúØóÝóÇßö æóØóåøóÑóßö æóÇÕúØóÝóÇßö Úóáóì äöÓóÇÁ ÇáúÚóÇáóãöíäó

verses from quran

æóíóÓúÃóáõæäóßó Úóäö ÇáúãóÍöíÖö Þõáú åõæó ÃóÐðì ÝóÇÚúÊóÒöáõæÇú ÇáäøöÓóÇÁ Ýöí ÇáúãóÍöíÖö æóáÇó ÊóÞúÑóÈõæåõäøó ÍóÊøóìó íóØúåõÑúäó ÝóÅöÐóÇ ÊóØóåøóÑúäó ÝóÃúÊõæåõäøó ãöäú ÍóíúËõ ÃóãóÑóßõãõ Çááøåõ Åöäøó Çááøåó íõÍöÈøõ ÇáÊøóæøóÇÈöíäó æóíõÍöÈøõ ÇáúãõÊóØóåøöÑöíäó

nisa here is used generally , but we know that fatimat al zahra (as) who is a woman does not have menstrual bleeding

íóÇ ÃóíøõåóÇ ÇáøóÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇú áÇó ÊóÞúÑóÈõæÇú ÇáÕøóáÇóÉó æóÃóäÊõãú ÓõßóÇÑóì ÍóÊøóìó ÊóÚúáóãõæÇú ãóÇ ÊóÞõæáõæäó æóáÇó ÌõäõÈÇð ÅöáÇøó ÚóÇÈöÑöí ÓóÈöíáò ÍóÊøóìó ÊóÛúÊóÓöáõæÇú æóÅöä ßõäÊõã ãøóÑúÖóì Ãóæú Úóáóì ÓóÝóÑò Ãóæú ÌóÇÁ ÃóÍóÏñ ãøöäßõã ãøöä ÇáúÛóÂÆöØö Ãóæú áÇóãóÓúÊõãõ ÇáäøöÓóÇÁ Ýóáóãú ÊóÌöÏõæÇú ãóÇÁ ÝóÊóíóãøóãõæÇú ÕóÚöíÏÇð ØóíøöÈÇð ÝóÇãúÓóÍõæÇú ÈöæõÌõæåößõãú æóÃóíúÏöíßõãú Åöäøó Çááøåó ßóÇäó ÚóÝõæøÇð ÛóÝõæÑÇð

nisa is used as well , but they are refering to your wives(as it is haram to touch other women(non mahrams) , not all women

æóÅöäú ÎöÝúÊõãú ÃóáÇøó ÊõÞúÓöØõæÇú Ýöí ÇáúíóÊóÇãóì ÝóÇäßöÍõæÇú ãóÇ ØóÇÈó áóßõã ãøöäó ÇáäøöÓóÇÁ ãóËúäóì æóËõáÇóËó æóÑõÈóÇÚó ÝóÅöäú ÎöÝúÊõãú ÃóáÇøó ÊóÚúÏöáõæÇú ÝóæóÇÍöÏóÉð Ãóæú ãóÇ ãóáóßóÊú ÃóíúãóÇäõßõãú Ðóáößó ÃóÏúäóì ÃóáÇøó ÊóÚõæáõæÇú

some marja's do not permit marriage to any woman if im not mistaken

its just a general statement which you dont need to take literally

so nisa does not necessarily mean all women

and bro can you please paste the arabic khutba ?

salam

ps-there are many different hadiths where nisa is also used but doesnt refer to all women , what about

the day will come where u will see no difference between men and women (does that mean all men and women ?) [saya'ete zamanun la tara al farqu feeh bainal rijal wal nisa /something like that/]

i dont have reference to this hadith but you can ask any local Alem or if you want your marja' and he will verify it

Edited by Yousif

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(salam) I think one must ponder and examine what's being said. If one looks at the khutba, what is said is true (as hard as it might be for us to accept at face value because first reaction is disbelief or offense that the Imam (as) could say such a thing). however, as Yousif pointed out, women have attributes/qualities that men don't have or are "inferior" in. Let us not forget the very famous hadith about paradise being under the feet of our MOTHERS. Imam Ali (as) was married to one of the best women of this world and the hereafter. A woman who was free from impurity (even of menses and bleeding after childbirth), a woman who was truly Al-Siddiqah, and many many more qualities that show her high position due to her piety and submission to Allah (SWT). What Imam Ali (as) said is inherantly true of MOST women, AND certainly true of the woman who led the battle of Jamal which led to the death of MANY, MANY Muslims (both who fought her, and who followed her blindly and fought Imam Ali (as))

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Yes but is it our fault that Allah created us with a natural cycle that was part of his divine plan. The female body is a very delicate and intricate thing that Allah formed and created I don't think it makes us less then a man just different. We hold our own as women and men as men. I don't think it make one better then the other. Forgive me if I'm thinking out loud.

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I did ask several aalim's aside form stating that it was right after the batlle of the camels some have also said that Nahjul Balagha is a collection of khutba's and the authencity of this particular one has never really been verified. Maybe because all the ones that research are men and it is in their benefit not to research this khutba to see whether the Imam actually said this. I don't think he said this at all.

And before you all go jumping I will point you to the Quran where it states in AlAhzab (33) verse 35. It cleary states same reward for men and women provided they follow the path. This means one is not looking at men and women but at actions and it clearly does not distinguish in faith that women are deficient.

If Allah is to be Adil then he clearly cannot give women the menses then state they are deficient in faith because of this. If deficient in Intelligence then he cleary cannot evaluate us in our choices in the same way as he does a man.

And for the women who indicated that Fatima ut Zehra never had menses those hadiths are not verifiable either.

and this individual "nisa here is used generally , but we know that fatimat al zahra who is a woman does not have menstrual bleeding " Yes I know it indicates that in Fatima the Gracious" but this is not authentically verifiable.

If there was a way to have kids without going through menses and Allah did not do that to all women and then indicate we are deficient because of it then I think women should just roll over and play dead.

As for women should not be listened to even if they are right it is nothing but men's ego's and their fear that women are more intelligent then men as in emotional intelligence. We know IQ wise we are the same as any man.

My personal opinion is that women are more intelligient then men and it is because of this that for centuries there has been a constant brainwashing to show women are somehow inferior to them to keep the women from outsmarting men and leaving them to weep.

The bottom line none of these hadiths have been verified or can be verified because the women are not the ones researching or doing the work. Maybe it is about time that some women take on this task to put men in their place. Oops I forget even if women did that they will either be labled feminists or they will use the words women are to not to be listened too..

And yes this topic has been discussed time and time again and men will always state this to dominate women. And they only dominate women who believe this to be true by the very fact that you have questioned this indicates you are intelligent and men will not be able to dominate you based on this unverifiable Khutba

Did I make your head spin going around

Edited by Diva

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And I don't think Imam (as) thought badly about ALL women (or even most women), but if you look at the things Imam Ali (as) pointed out as "deficiencies" in PRACTICE is true (but they are based on Qur'an and shariah, decreed by Allah (SWT), so they are not signs of lack of inner faith (in fact, obeying Allah's (SWT) decree would be a form of submission to Allah (SWT), a good thing for Muslims), and our "deficiencies" in intelligence (as for being BEST at taking care of home and family, being equipped for motherhood, etc) that's just it, we are BEST equipped for this, it's one of our strengths as women. we are (generally speaking) the caretakers, the nurturers, the ones that raise the children and give our families a safe haven in which to escape from the outside world. Men are providers and protectors, but women are the nurturers. we complement each other, such is the way Allah (SWT) created us as garments for each other, i.e. cover, beauty, embellishment of the other. It's not that men are only this for women, or women are only this for men, but we are this FOR EACH OTHER.

Men and women, in terms of INNER iman are judged equally in the eyes of Allah (SWT) and our outer iman (as far as our ability to fast, pray, etc.) are DICTATED by Allah (SWT) thus we are not harmed by these differences (it would be against the absoulte justice of Allah (SWT) to create these differences and yet hold them against us).

Edited by Aliya

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It's like when Allah uses the word "man" in the Qur'an; doesn't mean all 'men' necessarily are bad, or good, or as in Surah Asar "Surely Man is in great loss".

Or like the way some females on thie site have a tendancy to say things like "men have ego problems' or are 'sexist' or 'don't care about women, and use women as a sext tool' or 'can't control their hormones or lower their gaze', sure some or even most might do, but does that include every single man on this planet; I highly doubt it and I hope that's not what they mean either.

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Salaam,

First of all, I’m sorry if I offended one. I'm just trying to seek truth and justice. If you guys want to PM me, please dont send profanity.

Thank you to all who replied. I'll take it one by one:

Imran Ali: I tried to speak to a mulana, as I said in my first post.

Yousif: (your first post) I read that exact explanation, but thought is insufficient for my own understanding because (1) Women are good at more than just child rearing and house keeping; (2) It doesn’t explain WHY women are given less inheritance or witness-ship; (3) Imam Ali is just ('adil), why would he implicate ALL women for something an individual did? I've never heard of the defects of men because of something a male did.

(Your 2nd post) ok, so men shouldn’t please women.... but it is a woman's duty to please her man (i.e. husband.) Doesn’t seem very fair, even mutual, to me.

And also: if you are a man and your mother doesn’t want you to do mustahab fasts, pray excessively, etc., for concern for your health, isn’t it makrooh for you to disobey her? Is that not listening to a woman?

(your 3rd post): I do not speak arabic and so have no idea what those ayats meant. Can you post the citations?

Iran warrior, Yousif, and Ali Imran: Those ayats that Allah puts forth imply "disbelieving wo/men" etc. It never targets something that all wo/men or even most wo/men do. Yet mostly all women DO menstruate, and therefore it seems that the khutba targets most women.

skOOn: me too. :)

Mohsin: I heard something along the lines of "anything led by a women is doomed..." narrated by Abu Hurraira, and so as you can imagine I never gave it significance.

Cresentknitter: 1st post-- :P 2nd post-- Thank you!!! you can think aloud as much as you want, bc i do it too.

Aliya: (first post) It is claimed that Bibi Fatema s.a. was free from "impurity" so she did not have "deficient faith" as the rest of us girls do.

As for Heaven lying at a mother's feet:

(1) Not all mothers are good mothers, should heaven be at their feet as well? Be specific--generalities are harmful more than helpful

(2) Not all women are physically capable of being mothers. Are women that are not mothers not as important?

(3) I’ve always felt this was a way for men to shirk their paternal duties...

(second post) yes because almost all women menstruate.

Maryam-- Nice article. who's the author? just one thing-- Physiological difference was not mentioned in the khutba, Intelligence was.

Also, what if a woman doesn’t marry? her husband cannot pay for her then!

TheTruth: maybe I'm not as "hard-core" as I should be. I'm told time and again to stop questioning and start following blindly, but that is not the way I want to follow faith. after all, to believe you must have a SLIGHT understanding. Oh, and I already said it was about 'ayesha.

Anonymous: I dont frequent this site much. pray tell, where are those threads? and did you all ever come to some conclusion?

Nevermind: scorpions? :huh:

Diva: YOU’RE MY HERO! :) and I am a feminist... love to see the facial reaction people (esp. men) have when I tell 'em.

I never once heard any one question the authority of the Nahjal Balagha.... can it be?

Oh, and don’t get carried away w/ making generalizations about men bc then there would be no difference between us and, well, misogynists. i.e. women are not more intelligent than men, (nor LESS!) but I believe we are of equal rank... created equally.

_____

Another question: why are men permitted polygamy?

Jazak Allah khairan everyone!

-SN-

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(salam)

^ you above , a man can simply point out many things you women have which he doesnt , and call it unfair and not equality , but it is equality only in different ways , men - hijab of the eyes , women - hijab (veil manners etc)

you are being biased , you are ignoring the fact that these ayats use the same wording used in the khutba , yet are not refering to all women , but here you want it to refer to all women... its common to have such thoughts once ur mind sticks to that thought that u think women are unequal to men because of the way they are treated your mind directly comprehends these things that way

the explanation says blindly following them and wrongly obeying them .. refering to what happened , theres nothing not to get here , unless you dont have beliefs like a basic ithna ashari , then you would find a problem (i.e ayesha wasnt bad and didnt fight imam ali (as) , sayeda fatima (as) wasnt the sayeda of women of both worlds)

and about the witness part , again be unbiased , how many % of the worlds women gossip ? i am very much convinced that , if one woman sees the moon , in the end it will be her and 3 of her friends attending that they saw it ... or if a women was raped her friends could very much lean towards her in testimony without any prroof .. (oh look what he did to habeebti , no hes going down lets go testify)

i know thsi is not such maybe with all women , but its a quality existing in most

about following your mother , it is not an islamic duty to follow your mother , you can follow her in what is right , and you can also not follow her if you want , but its recomended to avoid making her feel bad

again this khutbah doesnt refer to women if it did just because he used women

then the verse refering to marry of women 2 3 or 4 means you can marry any women ? what about those non-ahlul kitab (there are marja's who do not permit) what about your mothers ? why cant you ? it says all women

read this for you , you would understand - http://al-islam.org/WomanRights/index.html

and polygamy was permitted after the battle of uhud , when alot of the men population died , it was said it is better to have a man with more than one wife than a lot of single women in the population

Imam Ali (as) says women is a scorpion whos grip is sweet , (you can see it on top of this site it comes out)

a book i suggest for all of you , [diva and OP] is feminists and islam

diva, those hadiths about fatima are authenticated by both shia and sunni sources, yes it is about how they follow the path , not how deficient they are , that doesnt matter actions and deficieny of faith are 2 different things , one may have alot of faith but does not show them in actions and vice versa

there are women mujtahids , but none of them ever strived to be that big no one would say they would not be accepted as in many places there are women who teach in hawzas

there are books on quran and hadith by women however all i have seen are sunni ones , perhaps the fault is of our shia sisters if you want to play the blame game there are even lecturers who are women and do preach and men do listen ...

no you didnt make anyones head spin around , its the same [Edited Out] any women would say when they want to blame men how about taking the blame on yourselves for once , if any one is limiting themselves they are you , so stop complaining about how men limit you when its the western propaganda who does , and stop generalizing men , when you soo much hate the fact that this khutba refers to women i.e generally(when it doesnt mean all women the same thing as verses in the quran)

ps-had the strategiest written this about women he would have been warned and topic closed again :lol:

perhaps you need to re-look at the quran

Edited by Yousif

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