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In the Name of God بسم الله

Qur'anic verse that supports the ban on tattoo and plastic surgery

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  • Veteran Member

(salam)

It's interesting how shiites permit tattoos and plastic surgeries, whereas sunnis are quite against it.

However, it seems that sunnis have a verse from the Qur'an that supports their view.

What do shiite scholars say about the following verse?

4:119 And surely I will lead them astray, and surely I will arouse desires in them, and surely I will command them and they will cut the cattle's ears, and surely I will command them and they will change Allah's creation. Whoso chooseth Satan for a patron instead of Allah is verily a loser and his loss is manifest.

Isn't tattoo and plastic surgery considered change in Allah's creation?

thanks

Edited by SoRoUsH
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  • Advanced Member
(salam)

It's interesting how shiites permit tattoos and plastic surgeries, whereas sunnis are quite against it.

However, it seems that sunnis have a verse from the Qur'an that supports their view.

What do shiite scholars say about the following verse?

4:119 And surely I will lead them astray, and surely I will arouse desires in them, and surely I will command them and they will cut the cattle's ears, and surely I will command them and they will change Allah's creation. Whoso chooseth Satan for a patron instead of Allah is verily a loser and his loss is manifest.

Isn't tattoo and plastic surgery considered change in Allah's creation?

thanks

tattoos i agree with

but i dont think any shia agrees with plastic surgery

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Guest Muntuthra-Alnasr

(bismillah)

(salam)

You guys have to learn something. Alot of the time qur'anic ayas are translated to mean something which they dont really mean in arabic. If you are an arabic speaker listen to the arabic or read it and you will notice a big change in the meaning of the aya. If you aren't an arabic speaker just look for more than one translation and you will almost always see differences as well. NEVER go by an english translation.

Wasalam

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Sistani and others know more than you period.

Take your beef up with them if you want to get schooled

hah...

Is that how you follow Islam?

You don't question it and blindly accept whatever your marja says?

Well... I'm not like that, and I'm still in the process of choosing between sunni and shiite Islam.

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hah...

Is that how you follow Islam?

You don't question it and blindly accept whatever your marja says?

Well... I'm not like that, and I'm still in the process of choosing between sunni and shiite Islam.

Bro let me ask you a question. If you are sick, would you go to the doctor or would you consider that changing Allah's creation?

Let's say a person gets into a severe car accident. They want plastic surgery to change their face since it was badly damaged. Is this changing Allah's creation?

If a woman puts on make up, is this considered changing Allah's creation? After all, she is altering her appearance.

Where do we draw the line?

Wasalaam

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Bro let me ask you a question. If you are sick, would you go to the doctor or would you consider that changing Allah's creation?

Let's say a person gets into a severe car accident. They want plastic surgery to change their face since it was badly damaged. Is this changing Allah's creation?

If a woman puts on make up, is this considered changing Allah's creation? After all, she is altering her appearance.

Where do we draw the line?

Wasalaam

Constructice plastic surgery is permissible in sunni Islam as well.

My issue is with tattoo and Cosmetic plastic surgery.

Make-ups aren't permanent change into one's created nature.

The line... should be drawn according to the Qur'an.

And it seems clear that Qur'an prohibits any permanent creation on our bodies.

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Constructice plastic surgery is permissible in sunni Islam as well.

My issue is with tattoo and Cosmetic plastic surgery.

Make-ups aren't permanent change into one's created nature.

The line... should be drawn according to the Qur'an.

And it seems clear that Qur'an prohibits any permanent creation on our bodies.

lol according to who? you?

And where do you draw the line between "constructive" and "cosmetic"

Okay, let's say, and I'm talking VERY realistically here, let's say there is a woman who has a lot of facial hair. It is a barrier in her life and it makes her really sad. Would it be permissible for her to get laser surgery to correct the problem? This surgery isn't exactly NEEDED, and it is techncially COSMETIC... yes/no? How do you decide?

Bro, you're thinking about this way too simplistically. The truth is, it's more complicated and it requires a lot more than I think you're willing to admit.

Islam encourages us not to be vain. Where to draw that line, is a matter of dispute, and also a matter of individuality.

Wasalaam

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lol according to who? you?

??

And where do you draw the line between "constructive" and "cosmetic"

cure vs beautification

Okay, let's say, and I'm talking VERY realistically here, let's say there is a woman who has a lot of facial hair. It is a barrier in her life and it makes her really sad. Would it be permissible for her to get laser surgery to correct the problem? This surgery isn't exactly NEEDED, and it is techncially COSMETIC... yes/no? How do you decide?

Didn't God put the hair on her?

IF God has forbidden it, it doesn't matter how "hairy" one is.

Respecting God's command is more important than other people's opinions.

Bro, you're thinking about this way too simplistically. The truth is, it's more complicated and it requires a lot more than I think you're willing to admit.

Islam encourages us not to be vain. Where to draw that line, is a matter of dispute, and also a matter of individuality.

Wasalaam

I am simplistic because Qur'an states it in a simple matter.

Plus, I STILL haven't seen how the marjas/scholar interpret this verse.

anyone?

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Okay, Soroush, then why should male circumcision exist? Didn't God create that foreskin? What about people born with hormonal imbalances? Should we just allow them to suffer or give them some sort of cure for it after they're born?

Your argument makes no sense. I am saying that the line between "curative" and "beautification" is completely NOT clear. If I know a woman who could grow a beard faster than her husband, I see no problem with her getting laser surgery done. To me, that's NOT beautification, it's curative.

How do you not see that the line is so blurry?

Wasalaam

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Okay, Soroush, then why should male circumcision exist? Didn't God create that foreskin? What about people born with hormonal imbalances? Should we just allow them to suffer or give them some sort of cure for it after they're born?

Your argument makes no sense. I am saying that the line between "curative" and "beautification" is completely NOT clear. If I know a woman who could grow a beard faster than her husband, I see no problem with her getting laser surgery done. To me, that's NOT beautification, it's curative.

How do you not see that the line is so blurry?

Wasalaam

I don't think you understand my point.

If God has commanded against it, it doesn't matter what you think.

Plus, beauty itself is a subjective matter.

ALL that matters is what God commands, and NOT what appeals to you.

That is why I posted that verse in my first post, to firgure out what God has commanded.

In sunni view it is a clear matter, so I am waiting to know shiite reasoning behind their permission, and their interpretation of that verse.

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I don't think you understand my point.

If God has commanded against it, it doesn't matter what you think.

Plus, beauty itself is a subjective matter.

ALL that matters is what God commands, and NOT what appeals to you.

That is why I posted that verse in my first post, to firgure out what God has commanded.

In sunni view it is a clear matter, so I am waiting to know shiite reasoning behind their permission, and their interpretation of that verse.

And I'm telling you that the interpretation of that verse is not a ban on plastic surgery or tatoos. I'm logically giving you the reasons for it, and the reasons I was given while discussing it with an alim in Iran.

Wasalaam

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And I'm telling you that the interpretation of that verse is not a ban on plastic surgery or tatoos. I'm logically giving you the reasons for it, and the reasons I was given while discussing it with an alim in Iran.

Wasalaam

no offence, but I'd rather read a scholar/marjas opinion and interpretation of that specific verse.

When it comes to logic and opinion, everyone can justify and rationalize anything.

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Fair enough. Tafsir:

"The heathen arabs used to slit the ears of a she camel and had exempted it from being used or slaughtered, i.e., devoted to their idol goes. It was a prevalent form of polytheism in Arabia. The animal, be it a she camel or a goal was called 'Bahira' viz., she camel having her ear slit= there is a mention of this in Vr. 15:103. Changing of God's creation meaning using of God's created things for an object other than that for which they have been created. Worshipping of the Sun or the Moon which were created to be subservient to man or the misuse of any faculty in man. Some commentators quote Vr. 30:30 and by changing the creation of God, mean corrupting a religion. Of 'Qalq' is to be taken here to mean not creation but the planning. There would have been a very wide implication to include ever attempt to act the system planned by God, in the realm of creation or in the realm of legislation. This has been applied to change or alteration in the distinguishing of the sexual features such as the removal of beard and the moustache which are the distinctive and distinguishing identification of a male from a female. Thus the assuming of the female and the male appearances were prohibited."

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(salam)

Please read the whole thing

Now soroush 2 things:

1) Forget all about "Allah has commanded so i will do it". This is Wahhabi doctrine. Allah has given reasons for every action that he has asked us to do, because we cannot call God fair and expect him to give us no explanation at the same time. That is why Islam is the best and only true religion. For eg:

05.006 O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, Allah doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.

Al-Qur'an, 005.006 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])

Even over here God has given reason for why he expected us to go through all that.

2) Because sunni's have provided this proof I am not surprised its out of context. Lets see what the aya's before and after talk about :

Shakir 4:117] They do not call besides Him on anything but idols, and they do not call on anything but a rebellious Shaitan

tafsir :

In primitive ages man could not understand any productive action except the sexual relationship. The pagans thought that their idols were the daughters of God. The cult of goddesses had been almost universal, partly through the association of maternity. The goddess was the fountain and source of human life. Inatha also signifies inanimate things as trees, stones and wood. The idolworshippers, in fact, submit to Shaytan who, devoid of good, invites his followers to lawlessness, anarchy and evil.

[shakir 4:118] Allah has cursed him; and he said: Most certainly I will take of Thy servants an appointed portion:

[shakir 4:119] And most certainly I will lead them astray and excite in them vain desires, and bid them so that they shall slit the ears of the cattle, and most certainly I will bid them so that they shall alter Allah's creation; and whoever takes the Shaitan for a guardian rather than Allah he indeed shall suffer a manifest loss.

Tafsir: The accursed Shaytan's share (determined in regard to time) implies his ability to lead man astray from the path of faith and truth.

"To alter Allah's creation" means using created things for a purpose other than what they have been created to fulfil.

"To slit the ears of animals" refers to the slitting the ears of animals by invoking the names of their gods and goddesses by the pagan Arabs, so that those animals could not be slaughtered or used for gainful purposes.

So you see, the shaitan was making them slit the ears of cattle and they would worship them and not Allah. This aya is reffering to an incident/people in a point of time in history who were using cattle as Gods rather than food. Notice the aya says "and he said" so all that about I will lead them astray and stuff, the shaitan is referring to what he made them do. Allah is giving us an example.

There are some aya's in the quran that talk about war and killing the kafir's, if one were to take those aya's without reading the context everone of us would be a terrorist any probably that is why terrorism exist. because of reading the quran out of context. First u gotta see what Allah is talking about. U can misqoute anyone by using one sentence from a speech and that is what sunnis are doing.

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hah...

Is that how you follow Islam?

You don't question it and blindly accept whatever your marja says?

Well... I'm not like that, and I'm still in the process of choosing between sunni and shiite Islam.

When it comes to fiqh yes I blindly follow a marja, if you want to examine every rule in Islam hahahaha :!!!: go for it! More power to you, other than that before I converted to Islam it took me 6 years (not including when I was curious about Islam at the age 13) to finally come to a conclusion about Islam, may Allah help you as he helped me.

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no offence, but I'd rather read a scholar/marjas opinion and interpretation of that specific verse.

When it comes to logic and opinion, everyone can justify and rationalize anything.

Then ask a Marja about this topic! :!!!: It's that simple you want an answer from a marja yet you are asking people on shiachat. :squeez: Stop waisting your time and email this question with your verse to at least 4 marja and wait for an answer, simple solution akh.

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  • 10 years later...
  • Basic Members
On 10/7/2006 at 1:16 PM, SoRoUsH said:

hah...

Is that how you follow Islam?

You don't question it and blindly accept whatever your marja says?

Well... I'm not like that, and I'm still in the process of choosing between sunni and shiite Islam.

That's a good mentality you got there because people follow imam when some imam are astray one should always know what he follows no one is promised being righty guided these imam are not prophets that's why I just listen to the Quran and prophet Muhammad saw because these imam will flip ur mind

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On 3/11/2017 at 8:45 PM, Araboy97 said:

That's a good mentality you got there because people follow imam when some imam are astray one should always know what he follows no one is promised being righty guided these imam are not prophets that's why I just listen to the Quran and prophet Muhammad saw because these imam will flip ur mind

You bumped an 11-year old thread! :O

Here's an update: 

After researching to choose between Shia Islam and Sunni Islam, for a long time, I can now inform you that I am 100% Shia. :)

I may disagree with many viewpoints and opinions of Shias today, scholars or not, but when it comes to the fundamentals, I am 100% Shia. 

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On 2017-03-11 at 11:45 PM, Araboy97 said:

That's a good mentality you got there because people follow imam when some imam are astray one should always know what he follows no one is promised being righty guided these imam are not prophets that's why I just listen to the Quran and prophet Muhammad saw because these imam will flip ur mind

You only follow the Prophet? Ok but the Prophet said to follow his ahlulbayt aswell, which means following them is also following the Prophet. The marjas follow what the Prophet and imams tell us, hence why we follow the marjas.

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3 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

You bumped an 11-year old thread! :O

Here's an update: 

After researching to choose between Shia Islam and Sunni Islam, for a long time, I can now inform you that I am 100% Shia. :)

I may disagree with many viewpoints and opinions of Shias today, scholars or not, but when it comes to the fundamentals, I am 100% Shia. 

Alhamdullilah you chose the right path, Allah will reward you in the hereafter. You should perhaps share your story with us on how & why you chose Islam and what brought you to being shia :p 

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