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Renaissance_Man

Omar murdering Fatima (as)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

At Majlis-e-Aza last Saturday to commemorate the demolition of Jannat al-Baqi, Maulana Sakhavat Hussain read the masaib of Bibi Fatima's (as) martyrdom giving some really shocking details I'd never heard before. Most people believe she was injured when Omar (la) pressed her between the wall and her door and died later when she succumbed to this injury. Maulana said there was a sharp spear sticking out of the door and when the door struck her it was the tip of this spear that punctured her and killed Hazret Mohsin (as). After that Omar attacked her with a sword, breaking her arm. I think there was a third thing which Omar did but I forgot (hey, sounds like a particular hadith about the Thursday incident doesn't it ;) ).

Needless to say, I was shocked to hear all this especially the part about Omar hitting Fatima (as) with the sword. That led me to think, how authentic are these details if some scholars are doubtful over whether Fatima's (as) rib was broken or not? I don't think these are weak reports because throughout the masaib he gave references to scholars who quoted it. I'd like to hear your take on it.

Edited by Ali786

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It's new for me :blink:

I just heard that he pushed the door against the wall, and he pushed her because of which she fell down and her ribs were broken...

But the spear thing is new for me.

Any references anyone?

Wa'Salam

Ali

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salaam alaikum,

ive seen so much [Edited Out] in this site, i just cant believe it :) and its the same topics agian and agian, why dont you people get a life :)

i thought people wernt supposed to say lanat etc, and then you see people breaching the rules them selves lol.

and its the same thing i hear umar did this and that, and yet from shia sources its prooven that imam ali gave pledge to him :), what more can i say! i aint gonna keep cutting and pasting the same thing, its boring. and

this issue about pushing the door is controversial, because the hadeeths are so numerous and contradicting lol. and the baby muhsin, well according to some sources he passed away in the prophet's time!!!!!!!!!

leave it to that ive got too much stuff to do :), instead of wasting my time here!

wassalaam

Edited by samrqandi

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yet from shia sources its prooven that imam ali gave pledge to him , what more can i say! i aint gonna keep cutting and pasting the same thing, its boring.

Which Shia sources?

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I'm not a scholar and nor am i learned in hadiths and history.. but with regards to what i've read from both sides of the line on this issue... it still hard to understand why would Ali (.ra.) a man with strength of 70 (with regards to the door which he ripped out to use as a shield as i've read numerous times on this board), allow someone to force him to give alliegance.

it really doesn't make sense to someone who's still learning about all this, why Ali would give his alliegance to anybody if he had so many supporters and indeed Ghadeer Khum took place with so many there... why not rise from the beginning.

I just cant grasp the answers given for it and i'm going into any of these discussions or articles with a complete open mind and willingness to learn and seek the truth!

And regarding this specific topic... this seems even more ridiculous that Omar (.ra.) would attack Fatima (.ra.) with a sword. I mean c'mon... this is ridiculous.

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I'm not a scholar and nor am i learned in hadiths and history.. but with regards to what i've read from both sides of the line on this issue... it still hard to understand why would Ali (.ra.) a man with strength of 70 (with regards to the door which he ripped out to use as a shield as i've read numerous times on this board), allow someone to force him to give alliegance.

it really doesn't make sense to someone who's still learning about all this, why Ali would give his alliegance to anybody if he had so many supporters and indeed Ghadeer Khum took place with so many there... why not rise from the beginning.

I just cant grasp the answers given for it and i'm going into any of these discussions or articles with a complete open mind and willingness to learn and seek the truth!

And regarding this specific topic... this seems even more ridiculous that Omar (.ra.) would attack Fatima (.ra.) with a sword. I mean c'mon... this is ridiculous.

Aslamo 3alikum,

1) Why do you think as we read in Sahih Bukhari that Ali (as) didn't pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr for 6 months? [i.e in Bibi Zahra (as) 's life ]

2) Imam Ali (as) didn't want to fight.

3) Imam Ali (as) didn't have enough support.

4) Yes, so many were present at Ghadir but so less kept their promises after Prophet's demise. Don't say it doesn't make sense because this is what happened after every Prophet of Allah :) .

5) Umar along with Khaled bin Waleed etc. did attack Fatimah (as) 's house, burnt the door but that spear/sword thing is something new for me and I myself would like to know it's reference.

Wa'Salam

Ali

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Sallam

The incident regarding Umar attacking Fatima physically is hard to prove from Sunni sources. However, there are a few narrations regarding him "threatening" but most of them are Mursal or Daeef.

Sallam

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(bismillah)

The incident regarding Umar attacking Fatima physically is hard to prove from Sunni sources. However, there are a few narrations regarding him "threatening" but most of them are Mursal or Daeef

None sense, it can be easily proven that the pioneers of the Sunni sect, its past Fuqaha'a and "Al-Saleheen" knew what Umar did, he did not threaten to burn the house, but he hit her Highness with the edge of the handle of the sword, your own scholars record these ahdeeth. Just because you love Umar, doesn't make the hadeeth "weak" or "Fabricated", especially when all Islamic sects have traditions in regards to the attack of the house, and trust me, when I say "Every Muslim sect", I really do mean it.

Come on Bro, all of your Imams and narrators reported this incident, and it's very hard Not to prove it.

(salam)

Edited by NoorFatima

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(bismillah)

None sense, it can be easily proven that the pioneers of the Sunni sect, its past Fuqaha'a and "Al-Saleheen" knew what Umar did, he did not threaten to burn the house, but he hit her Highness with the edge of the handle of the sword, your own scholars record these ahdeeth. Just because you love Umar, doesn't make the hadeeth "weak" or "Fabricated", especially when all Islamic sects have traditions in regards to the attack of the house, and trust me, when I say "Every Muslim sect", I really do mean it.

Come on Bro, all of your Imams and narrators reported this incident, and it's very hard Not to prove it.

(salam)

Sallam

What can i say to a person who has not analysed the event indepth?

Does it matter if our scholars narrated it? You can quote from Tabari or Al Bidayah or Iqd Al Fareed but the bottom line is alot of these are Annals, meaning the gather everything from everyone :). Also, alot of these are books with no Sanad/Secondary sources.

I hope you realize what you are saying Brother. I have personally looked upon a few books and the only thing i found was:

1. A forger in the Sanad.

2. Mursal

3. Obscure sources

Sallam

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Guest Ali1

(salam)

I heard something like Ayatollah Fadhllah saying that there really is no direct proof (about Umar breaking her ribs). Is that true?

Please do not start i controversy over this.....i am clearly saying "i heard".

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Sallam

What can i say to a person who has not analysed the event indepth?

Does it matter if our scholars narrated it? You can quote from Tabari or Al Bidayah or Iqd Al Fareed but the bottom line is alot of these are Annals, meaning the gather everything from everyone :). Also, alot of these are books with no Sanad/Secondary sources.

I hope you realize what you are saying Brother. I have personally looked upon a few books and the only thing i found was:

1. A forger in the Sanad.

2. Mursal

3. Obscure sources

Sallam

Salam

Brother you know what........

keep follow your LANTI Umar and Insha-Allah you will be in hell

:P

Lanat bay shumar on Umar and co and whoever Follow them and support them

Wasalam

post-3-1070946056.jpg

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Salam

Brother you know what........

keep follow your LANTI Umar and Insha-Allah you will be in hell

Lanat bay shumar on Umar and co and whoever Follow them and support them

Wasalam

brother salmany I apologize on behalf of raza. Obviously Allah has give some of us more emotions then sense

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Sallam

Thank you for you enlightening post. It shows your lack of ignorance and Akhlaq.

Still you have not proven he attacked her in anyway.

Jazakallah

Sallam

And you have not proven that umer is innocent of his filthy crime.

You've lost it up top in your denials...

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(salam)

I heard something like Ayatollah Fadhllah saying that there really is no direct proof (about Umar breaking her ribs). Is that true?

Please do not start i controversy over this.....i am clearly saying "i heard".

Q9 - Fatimah's rib: what is your true position regarding this matter?

A - Any one who claims that I have said that Fatimah's rib was not broken is a liar!

Some people have been talking this nonsense for more than five years. Here, I have this to say to you, to clarify the matter: to start with, I reiterate that I did not say that Fatimah's rib was not broken, and everyone who claims that I did is a liar. I merely regarded it as unlikely; I raised a question mark on the basis of historical analysis. I said: 'I do not react positively with this because the Muslims' love for Fatimah (as) had been greater than their love for Ali, and greater than their love for al-Hasan and al-Husain, and greater than that their love for the Messenger of Allah (sawa). I said that it was unlikely that anyone would commit such an act, but conceded that bad intentions were plotted - not to establish the innocence of anyone, but in fear of agitating Islamic public opinion.

There were many narrations: some said that they entered the house, while others said they did not. Hence, I said: 'I see that to be unlikely and I do not react positively to the word itself'. The world roared and heavens fell on earth, and words began to be fabricated and spread in some quarters!

This reaction has still not abated in more than one place, and leaflets are being distributed around the world. It is as if the dangers confronting the Muslims and all the injustice that we live in have become nothing, and all that matters is this historical issue!

In fact, this is a symptom of the backwardness which is being practised by many in our Islamic arena. This problem still festers among those who do not care about the dangers which confront Islam, and that the problem is still alive means that we are not addressing the major issues on the proper level of awareness.

--

Fatimah al-Masu'mah : a role model for men and women

Wa'Salam

Ali

Edited by Peer Syed Sahib

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salaam alaikum,

ive seen so much [Edited Out] in this site, i just cant believe it :) and its the same topics agian and agian, why dont you people get a life :)

i thought people wernt supposed to say lanat etc, and then you see people breaching the rules them selves lol.

and its the same thing i hear umar did this and that, and yet from shia sources its prooven that imam ali gave pledge to him :), what more can i say! i aint gonna keep cutting and pasting the same thing, its boring. and

this issue about pushing the door is controversial, because the hadeeths are so numerous and contradicting lol. and the baby muhsin, well according to some sources he passed away in the prophet's time!!!!!!!!!

leave it to that ive got too much stuff to do :), instead of wasting my time here!

wassalaam

How come you say the same thing (i.e. Im not wasting my time here anymore etc) over and over again on this board and yet you keep returning? Signs of Munafiqat to me :) i guess its the sunnah of your Hadi's :rolleyes:

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Bismallah alrahman alraheem wa alsalat aala ashraf alkhalq wa ahlihi wa sahbihi,

It is amazing how shia claim to love ahlul bait so much but at the same time are the ones who love to downgrade them. I will use your own qoutes to prove that to you without going to niether sunni nor shia scholars or books.

I am not trying to act like I know all the events but I have a question. Wasn't Imam Ali dragged out of the house and a rope put around his neck.

Most people believe she was injured when Omar (la) pressed her between the wall and her door and died later when she succumbed to this injury.

Imam Ali was forced.

Hence, it was invalid.

So here we see Sayedna Alis house and wife being attacked and he kept quiet, defenseless and no interest to protect his dear beloved wife. Wow how courageous from ASAD Allah !!!!!! Well it is clear that you ppl are not aware of Arabian traditions whereby a man would die but wouldnt allow a stranger talk to his wife so what about beating her. Thanks for degrading Sayedna Ali who allowed His honour to be disgraced and took no action. Why didnt he take revenge for the so called ribs you claim Sayedna Omar broke Or his son Mohsin Sayedna Omar Killed.

Stories made up by ppl who are really very bad authors with terrible imaginations and illusions !!!

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Bismallah alrahman alraheem wa alsalat aala ashraf alkhalq wa ahlihi wa sahbihi,

It is amazing how shia claim to love ahlul bait so much but at the same time are the ones who love to downgrade them. I will use your own qoutes to prove that to you without going to niether sunni nor shia scholars or books.

I am not trying to act like I know all the events but I have a question. Wasn't Imam Ali dragged out of the house and a rope put around his neck.

Most people believe she was injured when Omar (la) pressed her between the wall and her door and died later when she succumbed to this injury.

Imam Ali was forced.

Hence, it was invalid.

So here we see Sayedna Alis house and wife being attacked and he kept quiet, defenseless and no interest to protect his dear beloved wife. Wow how courageous from ASAD Allah !!!!!! Well it is clear that you ppl are not aware of Arabian traditions whereby a man would die but wouldnt allow a stranger talk to his wife so what about beating her. Thanks for degrading Sayedna Ali who allowed His honour to be disgraced and took no action. Why didnt he take revenge for the so called ribs you claim Sayedna Omar broke Or his son Mohsin Sayedna Omar Killed.

Stories made up by ppl who are really very bad authors with terrible imaginations and illusions !!!

Salam

you sunni/Wahabi bayshumar LANAT on you

what you think Imam ALI (a.s) was?

Like LANTI Umar (B. S. L. O. H. ) raised his sword against MUSLIMS

you WRONG, who ATTACK our Rasool's Daughter home.

He was ALI (a.s) the Brother of Rasool (pbuh), that was the teaching of Our Rasool and Allah that he didn't Raised his POWER against your LANTI 3,

that doesn't mean Imam ALI was week or your Lanti 3 was Power full.

go read History of Rasool (pbuh) how many time he raised his sword?

Wasalam.

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Bismallah alrahman alraheem wa alsalat aala ashraf alkhalq wa ahlihi wa sahbihi,

It is amazing how shia claim to love ahlul bait so much but at the same time are the ones who love to downgrade them. I will use your own qoutes to prove that to you without going to niether sunni nor shia scholars or books.

I am not trying to act like I know all the events but I have a question. Wasn't Imam Ali dragged out of the house and a rope put around his neck.

Most people believe she was injured when Omar (la) pressed her between the wall and her door and died later when she succumbed to this injury.

Imam Ali was forced.

Hence, it was invalid.

So here we see Sayedna Alis house and wife being attacked and he kept quiet, defenseless and no interest to protect his dear beloved wife. Wow how courageous from ASAD Allah !!!!!! Well it is clear that you ppl are not aware of Arabian traditions whereby a man would die but wouldnt allow a stranger talk to his wife so what about beating her. Thanks for degrading Sayedna Ali who allowed His honour to be disgraced and took no action. Why didnt he take revenge for the so called ribs you claim Sayedna Omar broke Or his son Mohsin Sayedna Omar Killed.

Stories made up by ppl who are really very bad authors with terrible imaginations and illusions !!!

Salam

Umer Lanatullah Alaih would have been killed by Ali as if the Prophet pbuh had not told Ali (as) keep peace...

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R@Z@,

Salam

you sunni/Wahabi bayshumar LANAT on you

All what i see in your stupid posts is that you keep on sending lanat on everyone who says something you dont like. This either reflects the enviroment you were rasied in or reflects the teaching of your faith.

May god curse you and all who slanders anyone of the (mothers of believers) who were faithfull wifes to Sayed alkhalq pbuh or curses anyone of his faithfull companians in this world and on doomsday.

A brotherly advise, try to see a shrink, he might help you overcome the abuse you faced in your desperate childhood !!!!

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Every action has a reaction. You can't go round expecting people to greet you with blessings when you curse them. Ofcourse it is the Sunnah of our Aimmah (as) to be polite, considerate and understanding towards others. Maybe the Shia of Ali (as) have forgotten the incident when a Nawasib spat in the face of Imam Ali (as) and the Imam (as) spared his life.

Topic gone way off its tracks. Closed.

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(bismillah)

Assalaamu Alaikum

The martyrdom of Fatimat Al-Zahra (as) is of extreme importance and is at the heart of the Shia Madh'hab. Her martyrdom was the beginning of a new chapter of striving, jihad and patience for the sake of the religion of Muhammad pbuh .

Those who place doubts in her martyrdom have placed doubts in Allah (SWT), his Prophets (as) and his Successors (as), for he/she has placed doubts in the narrations of the infallibles, be them the Prophet pbuh himself or his pure Ahlulbayt (as).

That led me to think, how authentic are these details if some scholars are doubtful over whether Fatima's  rib was broken or not? I

Those scholars who are doubtful are either Wahabi, Bakri or misguided. The hawza in Najaf and Qum headed by our righteous Maraji, have responded to those who place these doubts in the minds of the innocent.

I just heard that he pushed the door against the wall, and he pushed her because of which she fell down and her ribs were broken...

But the spear thing is new for me.

There are various narrations with details of various tools being used in the attack. What is more important than the method of this attack is the very fact that an attack by the cursed Umar and his party was launched and as a result of daughter of the Messenger of Allah (as) suffered fatal injuries.

yet from shia sources its prooven that imam ali gave pledge to him , what more can i say!

A real historian would take the details surrounding an event before simply announcing the Imam (as) pledged allegiance.

In reality the Imam (as) is the Hujjah of Allah and his appointed leader on the Earth. The battle that Imam Ali (as), Fatima (as) and the Ahlulbayt (as) waged was not for authority, nor materialistic gains, but it was for the sake of religion, justice and humanity as a whole. It is a battle to fulfil Allah's command. Therefore, if the interests of Islam are at stake the Imam (as) would not jeapordise the religion in return for his own rule. The priority is always for the sake of Allah (SWT).

The incident regarding Umar attacking Fatima physically is hard to prove from Sunni sources. However, there are a few narrations regarding him "threatening" but most of them are Mursal or Daeef.

The structure of this statement is quite misleading.

There are narrations from Sunni sources indicating a physical assualt and others indicating threats. As for proving their authenticy from Sunni experts in hadith, it is illogical in normal circumstances to do this quite simply because for a Sunni authority to reach such a conclusion, would take him out of the Sunni framework and if he was to implement his findings on himself, he would no longer be a Sunni.

Alhamdulillah there are many previous Sunni Ulama who switched to the Ahlulbayt school of thought after reaching these conclucions but ofcourse they are no longer Sunni authorities and hence it remains unproven in the "Sunni Headquarters".

As for proving that such an event took place, please refer to the esteemed Sunni historian Abul Hasan, Ali Ibn al-Husain al-Mas'udi who in his book 'Ithbaat al-Wasiyyah' describes the events in detail and reports that: "They surrounded Ali (as) and burned the door of his house and pulled him out against his will and pressed the leader of all women (Fatima (as)) between the door and the wall killing Mohsin(as) (the male-child she was carrying in her womb for six months)."

Salahuddin Khalil al-Safadi another Sunni scholar in his book 'Waafi al-Wafiyyaat' under the letter 'A' while recording the view of Ibrahim Ibn Sayyar Ibn Hani al-Basri, well-known as Nidhaam quotes him to have said: "On the day of 'Bay'aat' (paying allegiance), Umar hit Fatima (as) on the stomach such that child in her womb died."

Saleem ibn qaes al halali who passed away around 76 AH in his book:

He (qunfuth) approached her door step and pushed her and broke a rib from her side.

(Found in: al tabrasi fi al ihtijaj)

It is also narrated by Al-Khaseebi in his book Al-Hadaya Al-Kubra (no.407) and also Bihar Al-Anwar (43:197/29 & 53:18); that the enemies brought fire and did burn down the door of the house with Fatima(as) inside.

Al-Tusi said they hit her with canes, and there is no dispute among shia that this action was taken by Umar (la), until her child was killed, and was called Al-Mohsin(as), who was the 3rd son of Imam Ali (as) and Fatima (as). It has been narrated that the child was called Mohsin by his grandfather Rasollallah (saaw).

Please refer to the following

Al-Kafi Al-Kulayni 6:2/18,

Al-Khisaal by Sheikh Al-Saduq no.634,

Al-Irshad by Sheikh Al-Mufeed 1:355,

Tareekh Al-Tabari 5:153,

Al-Kamil li ibn Athir 3:397,

Bihar Al-Anwar 30:239-240, 43:197/29,

It is narrated that ibn qutaba said al-Mohsin (as) was aborted by a forceful hit by Qunfuth Al-Adawi who was ordered by Umar to hit Al-Zahra(as). (Qunfuth is the son of Umayr Al-Timmimi). Narrated by Al-Manaqib 3:358.

Al-Mohsin(as) was killed before he was born as Fatima(as) was beaten as she stood between the people and Amir Al-Mominen(as). The side effects of this action meant that Al-Zahra(as) became ill and stayed in bed until she passed away.

Please refer to

Al-Ihtijaj by Al-Tusi: 83,

The book of Sulaym 38 and 40,

Dalael Al-Imamah Al-Tabari 134,

Bihar Al-Anwar 43:170/11 and 198/29,

Da3aim Al-Islam 1:232,

These are all proof that Fatimat Al-Zahra(as) died Shaheeda. It is narrated that Ali ibn Jaffar from his brother Abi Al-Hassan(as) said:

"Fatimatun Sadiqatun Shaheeda".

Please refer to

Al-Kafi 1:458/2,

Ziyarat Al-Zahra(as): "Assalaamu Alaiki Ayatohel Batool Al-Shaheeda Al-Tahira"

Al-Mazar by Al-Mufeed 156,

Wal Muqana3a by Al-Mufeed 459,

Bihar Al-Anwar 100:197/14 and 198/16,

"Assalaamu Alaiki Ayatohel Sadiqa Al-Shaheeda"

Al-Tah'theeb by Al-Tusi 6:10/12,

Balad Al-Amin by Al-Kaf3ami 178,

Moving on to the issue of the narrations regarding her shahada, do you honestly believe that Abu Bakr and Umar will allow such information into the open media? Al-Zahra (as) started an uprising against the corruption of the Bakri leadership. It is therefore clear that this leadership will oppose such an uprising and do everything in its power to keep control. Furthermore, it is therefore obvious that after committing such crimes they will cover up the story in order to keep some credibility and support. I also have to remind you all of the many books and hadiths that were burnt in the Ummayad rule, Abbasid rule, and other oppressive regimes.

The claims regarding weak and inaccurate narrations needs to be verified and proven.

Still you have not proven he attacked her in anyway.

The task at hand is not to say proof is required for these events to have taken place, because the numerous history books suggest that they did. The real task is for those who claim it did not happen to prove so by providing evidence that all of these narrations are attempts to rewrite history.

Wasalaam

Edited by YA ZAHRA

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salaam alaikum,

ive seen so much [Edited Out] in this site, i just cant believe it :) and its the same topics agian and agian, why dont you people get a life :)

i thought people wernt supposed to say lanat etc, and then you see people breaching the rules them selves lol.

and its the same thing i hear umar did this and that, and yet from shia sources its prooven that imam ali gave pledge to him :), what more can i say! i aint gonna keep cutting and pasting the same thing, its boring. and

this issue about pushing the door is controversial, because the hadeeths are so numerous and contradicting lol. and the baby muhsin, well according to some sources he passed away in the prophet's time!!!!!!!!!

leave it to that ive got too much stuff to do :), instead of wasting my time here!

wassalaam

Salaam brother,

Imam Ali giving bayath to abubakr and umar later after six months of Janabe Fatima's Martyrdom is a weak hadith and its fabricated. Imam Ali never gave bayath to any of them.. That is the whole fight about.. which continued on and on.. even after the massacre of prophets family on the plains of Karbala.

The whole fight from the begining was about Caliphat and Bayat. there is a way to find out which hadith is authentic and which is weak.. they check the chain or narrators connecting all the way to the source.. making sure the authors of the hadiths are relaible.. truthful... and the hadith must be consistent with the Quran and historic dates.. history.. time, place.. and then they consider if the hadith is authentic or weak or fabricated.

The hadith Imam ALi giving bayath to Abubakr is fabricated.

Zanadine.

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Wa Salaam,

I think the question we all have to ask ourselves, is how can we learn from this? You may look at it from one perspective that if Umar had knocked the door down or if he ordered the door to be knocked down, then the question is why? There is no need to belittle Umar but I look at this from a psychological level. Even though we all claim to be followers of Ali (A.S.) and would like to think that our deen is superb, have any of us done things we were not or are not supposed to do? Maybe you have a job and felt snubbed if you did not get a promotion? Or maybe in school you were not picked to play on a sports team and felt snubbed? Or maybe as a child you may not have been picked to play sports with the other children? Or maybe a sister or a brother spurned your interest in them? Instead of leaving things as they were and just trying to better yourself perhaps you may have crossed the limits and started a fight or induldged in gossip against the person you felt snubbed you, etc. This issue of Umar and what he may have or did not do is a purely human issue.

When I first accepted the Ahlul Bayt (A.S.), I was about 22 years old and getting ready to graduated from college. I was sort of gung-ho about following the Ahlul Bayt (A.S.). I searched for debates. There was a group of us brothers who were glad to be following the Aale Muhammad (A.S.) and we searched for Sunni, Christian, etc. to engage in debate. We would carry all of our proofs and evidences with us whereever we went. I remember running a Sunni brother out of a masjid in New York because he started a debate with us and the proofs and evidences I carried were too much for him, audhoo billah :( I should not have done that. My pride got the best of me and I enjoyed having this information.

As I got older, I was corrected by a older Shi'i Caribbean brother from St. Kitts about this issue of the companions and what they did or did not do. His response to me when we were discussing Umar was 'so what if he did do these things? Are you better than he? Have you never done anything that you never regretted? We are centuries removed from those events but if they did do those things then learn from it so you do not committ excess against your fellow man. Umar and Abu Bakr will have to answer to Allah S.W.T. for their actions. Lastly, you do not know what state these men died in. So be easy with the accusations as you don't want to indulge in slander.' His statements shook me. I said that to say this, history is a weird science. We can never know the full picture but we can get close. I have a feeling that if Umar was responsible for Lady Fatimah's (A.S.) that would not have set well with the Commander of the Believers, al Imam Ali, (A.S.) and he would not have allowed the perpetrator of such a crime to live a second more than necessary or he would have ordered the Muslims to execute such a person. As the Muslims followed his juristic actions that is not an inplausible thing. Let's learn from these events and not put more on Umar or anyone else by that matter than necessary. When we judge them, we must judge ourselves.

And Allah knows best. Any good you gain from this comes from Allah and the bad comes from me. If I am off in my understanding then may Allah S.W.T. have mercy on me.

Wa Salaam,

Bro. Djibril

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. I have a feeling that if Umar was responsible for Lady Fatimah's (A.S.) that would not have set well with the Commander of the Believers, al Imam Ali, (A.S.) and he would not have allowed the perpetrator of such a crime to live a second more than necessary or he would have ordered the Muslims to execute such a person. As the Muslims followed his juristic actions that is not an inplausible thing. Let's learn from these events and not put more on Umar or anyone else by that matter than necessary. When we judge them, we must judge ourselves.

Although I am sure that you are sincere in your approach, there is a slight technical problem here. You and I know well that Imam Ali (as) (and any other Imam for that matter) is subject to the will of Allah (swt) and does not do anything that is contradictory to Allah's will and pleasure. The fate of Umar bin Khattab was in the hands of Allah, and should Allah have willed his end, there would have been no one before Imam Ali (as) who would have killed him. However as history has it, Imam Ali (as) remained aloof from politics during the rule of the three, only appearing from his home when he was needed or requested to solve a case. There is enough historical evidence, both from Sunni and Shia sources, to suggest that Abu Bakr bin Abi Qahafa and Umar bin Khattab were involved, indirectly or directly, in the burning of the door, and as a result, the martyrdom of Fatima Zahra (as).

Imam Ali giving bayath to abubakr and umar later after six months of Janabe Fatima's Martyrdom is a weak hadith and its fabricated. Imam Ali never gave bayath to any of them.. That is the whole fight about.. which continued on and on.. even after the massacre of prophets family on the plains of Karbala.

The whole fight from the begining was about Caliphat and Bayat. there is a way to find out which hadith is authentic and which is weak.. they check the chain or narrators connecting all the way to the source.. making sure the authors of the hadiths are relaible.. truthful... and the hadith must be consistent with the Quran and historic dates.. history.. time, place.. and then they consider if the hadith is authentic or weak or fabricated.

The hadith Imam ALi giving bayath to Abubakr is fabricated.

The biggest proof that it is fabricated is found in the books of maqatil and some history books that narrate the incidents of Karbala, in which Umar ibn Sa'd responds to Ibn Ziyad on the eve of 10th MUharram, saying Husayn ibn Ali is the man whose father gave Baya'h to NO ONE, so expect no less from him - we will have to fight him.

Edited by YouthOfAli

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