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AlQaadim

What is your opinion on 'irfaan' (gnosis)

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bismillah

(salam)

Brother Mystic King, people are become quite anxious with similar observations like those you have made. I don't have an answer as of yet, but I believe that if there was a just rulership of the Shia nation, we would all feel compelled to follow our leader (or council of leaders) but unfortunately, some feel that the Ummah is not being represented by the most learned man, so some follow other maraji3. In the old days it wasn't like this, but now there is a government and there is power, inna lillah wa inna ilayhi raji3oon.

Ahsant brother Abdulhujjah, both you and Socrates said something that begs me to contemplate the following thoughts

About issues such as the one in question here, you should know that this is not an issue which every person can understand, infact it is an issue which few can comprehend, and it is also a matter of faith.

                                     - Socrates

Truth is distinct from error, with your own words you claim the complexity of this concept, and that it can not be grasped by all. Then I ask, if this 'ideology' is not for all, where is the justice in it, where only few are saved?

I am of the belief that those who board the ark of salvation of Ahlul Bayt are saved, and the rest perish (not those who don't have the capacity to comprehend wuhdut al wujud).

You SAY HE IS ONE (ISLAM), or you SAY there is NO ONE but HE (IRFAAN).

                                     - Abdulhujjah

In the quran you find strong phrases, "Qul huwa Allahu Ahad" - He is Allah the one, you read also "La illaha illa hoo" - No God but He, also very strong. This makes me wonder, why, Why does Allah SW not say "La shay'an illa hoo" - There is nothing but He? I would say that is a stronger statement.

Ali ibn Khalil

(salam)

Edited By abdul_hasnain on 1035625871

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Guest socrates

Salam,

Just imagine, ok lets take the example of Qama zani , ok?

'A' says - it is haram

'B' says - doing it is of great reward, and pray for me after doing this.

Never heard of anyone who declared it haram 'fi nafseh', all of it was because of Shiism's reputation.

Secondly, as I have explained dozens of times (but some people don't want to listen), if a person seriously does it for his love of the martyrs of Karbala, he will care about the honor of what those people died for (Islam), and its reputation. Therefore such a person would abstain from doing it in public, where there is a possibility of the enemies of Islam taking advantage of this to hurt Islam's cause.

It is a fact that this issue, has not been commited by the Ma'sumeen. It was not practised for hundreds of years, yet the message of Karbala reached us. It is not practised by the vast majority of the people either. Nor is it known that any mujtahid has done this themselves (which is odd, if they say it is of high reward). So, the issue can be removed from the bounds of fiqh, and into the bounds of society.

It is obvious from what I explained that if anyone seriously did it for pure love of the martyrs, he would hide himself from eyes of men and do it in private. We know however, from experience, that the majority who do this are not the most learned in our society. They are not the most educated. They are not, the ones who practise Islam all the time, and we know that the Ma'sumeen did not encourage this actively nor did they tell people to follow this. We also know that the majority of generations of our forefathers, did not practise this.

And you know better than me, because these things are more common in Pakistan. How many, in percentage, of the people who do it there are literate (not just your own city, but all of the Shias of Pakistan)? How many have studied the Qur'an, and the Sirah of Imam Hussein (as)? How many practise all the obligatory and recommended acts by God with zeal? How many practise all the things Islam encourages in family life, in their business, in their conduct with other people, in their own private life?

You know better than me that the majority who do it, are not the people who are known to be the most learned ones, those who have studied Islam deeply, because the majority of scholars do not perform this themselves. You also know that many of the people who do it, are not the type of people who have studied and understood Islam and who practise the obligatory and recommend acts with perfection and zeal.

If you love someone, you do things that they like you to do. Imam Hussein (as) gave his life, so that our religion would not at a critical point of history, be perverted and that we would reach the same faith as the nation's before ours. He gave his life, for something higher than himself, namely submission to God, opposition to oppression, and the end of corruption and usurpation of the people's rights. These are the valuable lessons, which we need to learn from the tragedy of Karbala.

If you love Imam Hussein (as), you would live and die for the things he lived and died for. The majority who perform the acts which we are discussing, are not this kind of people. It's sad, but that's the way it is. If the majority were indeed this kind, we would not have bribes, lying, cheating, family problems, etc.

It has become a cultural thing, and a tradition. And to quote Seyyed Fadhlullah: "When  we convert it, to rituals, habits and customs, religion stagnates man."

Why? Because it ceases to fill a real and purposeful function. It doesn't help Islam. It doesn't give anything to Imam Hussein (as). It doesn't give anything to the Ummah. It doesn't even give anything to the individual in many cases, because it is merely a tradition.

A says- you can pray behind a sunni Imam and can even fold your hands for the sake of unity..

B says - NO, He must be a twelver shia.

Again an issue no one really disagrees on, those who allow it, are doing it for the sake of the greater good, which is less conflict between muslims.

A says- This Wahdatul Wajud concept is completely Shirk and thus its follower is a Kafir..

B says - Mr B follows it himself

This issue is not related, as it has nothing to do with fiqh or taqlid. It's personal opinions which cannot be emulated.

A says- You cannot in anyways abolish your child

B says- It is allowed (in the case of over population etc )

Don't know what you mean.

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Guest socrates

Salam,

Truth is distinct from error, with your own words you claim the complexity of this concept, and that it can not be grasped by all. Then I ask, if this 'ideology' is not for all, where is the justice in it, where only few are saved?

I am of the belief that those who board the ark of salvation of Ahlul Bayt are saved, and the rest perish (not those who don't have the capacity to comprehend wuhdut al wujud).

You answered your own question. You don't get it - thus it can't be for you (presuming you actually studied it with open heart). But some people do get it, and it helps them reach the goal easier and more smoothly, and makes it easier for them to perform this journey we call life.

No one said you are condemned if you don't get it. This is just a path which can help some, and for others it is not comprehendable. Just like you might have your own ways of getting closer to God, which others might not understand.

Just another example, is the hadith which someone quoted (though as far as I know, Imam Ali (as) was the one who uttered it), namely the hadith about different kinds of worship, some who do it for sake of fear of God, some who do it for the sake of His bounties, and yet others who do it for feeling of gratitude. The others are not condemned, but people have different capabilities.

Edited By socrates on 1035628177

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[b:post_uid0]Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim[/b:post_uid0]

Salaam Aleikum Brothers and Sisters,

I'm afraid that I don't have sufficient knowledge to discuss these concepts, much like yourselves.

But what I will say is this: Once again, people are creating [b:post_uid0]Fitnah[/b:post_uid0]. There are age old differences of opinion between Ulema, specifically between the Gnostic (Irfani) and Theological (Kalami) schools. But do they fight like this? Do they slander each other? What gives any of you a right to attack another school? [b:post_uid0]ALL[/b:post_uid0] the teachings are from Ahlul Bayt(A) and Qu'ran, originally, but the understandings merely vary depending upon your perspective. If the Kalami school didn't accept the legitimacy of the sources, then the Urefa would have been branded heretics long ago. I don't remember anyone branding Imam Khomeini(A) a heretic? I don't remember anyone branding Mullah Sadra a heretic?

[b:post_uid0]This entire argument is invalid.[/b:post_uid0]

Why?

Because, as I've already made clear above, NONE of us are at a sufficient level to debate the legitimacy of these schools, or to slander certain Ulema.

IF you are at a sufficient level, then please state your name and rank, and then kindly take up Shabbir's offer to take you to the Islamic Republic of Iran, to debate with the highest Urefa on this subject.

If, on the other hand, you have not attained a sufficient rank. Then please desist, for your own sakes. Still, take up Shabbir's offer to goto the Islamic Republic to learn about Gnosticism and Theology, if you are able and willing, insha'Allah.

As for brother abdul_hasnain,

I'm sorry brother Shabbir did you say that Sayed Khamenei was the Protector of the oppressed, i could have swore some guys with big turbans on their heads are under house arrest under his commands.

Imam Khomeini(A) had already answered this slander before you had even thought of it:

Translation of Ayatollah Khomeini Letter Dismissing Montazeri

The text of Ayatollah Khomeini's historic letter was recently printed in Abrar.

Tehran ABRAR 22 Nov 1997, page 2.

In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.  To Mr. Montazeri.

My heart is broken and filled with blood now that I am writing a few words to you.  Perhaps one day the people will realize the facts by reading this letter.

In your recent letter to me, you said that, in accordance with the Shari’ah, you give priority to my views over your own.  I consider God my witness when I point out the following issues:

Since it has become clear that after me you are going to hand over this country, our dear Islamic revolution, and the Muslim people of Iran to the liberals, and through that channel to the hypocrites [Mojahedin-e Khalq], you are no longer eligible to succeed me as the legitimate leader of the state.  You, in most of your letters, speeches and stances, have shown that you believe the liberals and hypocrites should rule in this country.  It is so clear that your remarks have been dictated by the hypocrites that I did not see any point in sending a reply.  For instance, thanks to your speeches and written work, the hypocrites took advantage of your stance in defense of their ilk to promote a number of their comrades—who had been condemned to death on charges of waging an armed struggle against Islam and the revolution—to positions of authority.  Can you see what valuable services you have offered to arrogance?  On the issue of the murderer Mahdi Hashemi [a supporter and relative of Ayatollah Montazeri, who was later executed], you considered him to be the most religious person on earth.  Despite the fact that it was proved to you that he was a murderer, you kept sending messages to me to spare his life.  There are so many other examples, similar to that of Mahdi Hashemi, that I cannot be bothered to mention them all.

You no longer have the power of attorney on my behalf.  Tell the people who bring you gold and money to take them to Mr. Pasandideh’s [Khomeyni’s elder brother] residence in Qom or to me in Jamaran. Praise be to God, you yourself will not have any financial commitments from this date.

If, in accordance with the Shari’ah, you do consider my views to be superior to yours (which certainly the hypocrites will advise you that it is against your interests to do so; and no doubt you will become busy writing things which will further deteriorate your future), then you should listen to the following words of advice I am giving you.  It breaks my heart and my chest is full of agonizing pain when I see that you, the fruit of my life’s labor, are so ungrateful.  However, by relying on Almighty God, I give you the following words of advice, and it will be up to you whether you make a note of them or not:

One: Try to change the members of your bureau so as to avoid feeding the hypocrites, Mahdi Hashemi’s clique, and the liberals from the sacred charity funds donated to the Imam.

Two: Since you are a gullible [sadeh lowh] person and are provoked easily, do not interfere in political matters, and maybe then God will forgive you for your sins.

Three: Do not write to me ever again, and do not allow the hypocrites to pass state secrets to foreign radio stations.  Four: Since you became a mouthpice of the hypocrites and your speeches have conveyed their wishes and letters to the people via the mass media, you have inflicted heavy blows on Islam and the revolution.  This is a great act of treason against the unknown soldiers of the Lord of the Age, may our souls be sacrificed for him, and against the sacrifices made by the illustrious martyrs of Islam and the revolution.  If you wish to save yourself from hell fire, you had better confess to all your sins and mistakes and maybe then God will help you.

I swear to God that from the start I was against choosing you as my successor, but at the time I did not realize you were so gullible.  To me you were not a resourceful manager but an educated person who could benefit the religious seminaries.  If you continue your deeds I will definitely be obliged to do something about you. And you know me, I never neglect my obligation.

I swear to God that I was against appointing Mahdi Bazargan as the first prime minister, too, but I considered him to be a decent person.  I also swear to God that I did not vote for Bani-Sadr, as the president either.  On all these occasions I submitted to the advice of my friends.  In the midst of my pain and suffering, I wish to address our dear people from the bottom of my broken heart:

I have made a pledge with my God not to forgive evil individuals ever, if I am not obliged to do so.  I have made a pledge with my God that pleasing Him [God] is much greater priority than pleasing my friends and other people.  If the entire world were to rise against me, I would never abandon justice and the truth.  I do not care about history and current developments.  I am only interested in performing my religious duties.  In addition to my pledge with God, I have promised the decent, noble, and honest people to inform them of the facts when the time is appropriate.  Islam’s history is full of instances of treason by its prominent figures against Islam. Try to make sure that you are not influenced by the lies broadcast by foreign radio stations.  These radio stations dictate their lies with so much joy and enthusiasm these days.  I beseech Almighty God to grant patience and tolerance to this old father of the dear Iranian people.  I beseech God to forgive me and to take me away from this world so that I no longer have to experience the bitter taste of my friends’ treachery.  We all submit to God’s will.  We have no power without God’s will.  Everything comes from Him.  

Wishing you peace:

Ruhollah al-Musavi al-Khomeyni;

dated: Sunday 6 Farvardin 1368.

If you'd like to go another round on this subject, then create a new thread, and let's see if the admins live up to their promise. The fact that they've kept silent on this comment, despite warnings, shows either a laziness or inability on their part to sufficiently moderate this board.

Admins, if you'd like any help moderating this board, you know how to contact me.

But this is a [b:post_uid0]final[/b:post_uid0] warning to shiachat, if these slanders are allowed to continue, then there will be consequences, severe consequences.

Wasalaam,

Jondab-Ali

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(salam)

Secondly, as I have explained dozens of times (but some people don't want to listen), [b:post_uid1]if a person seriously does it for his love of the martyrs of Karbala, he will care about the honor of what those people died for (Islam), and its reputation.[/b:post_uid1] Therefore such a person would abstain from [u:post_uid1]doing it in public,[/u:post_uid1] where there is a possibility of the enemies of Islam taking advantage of this to hurt Islam's cause.

First of all bro. if you have ever did it, then you should know that it is not a act which one could do for fun.. Obviously everyone who do it , do it for the Love of Sayyid-ul-Shuhda.

And for the honor bro., Some Grand Ayatollahs think that this Tatbir thing damages the honor, while others donot think so...

And for that doing it inside the home, Lets us see what is the opinion of Ayatollah al-Udhma Muhammad Sadiq Rouhani

[b:post_uid1]To do Qama-Zani is a very good act indeed, and to perform Qama-Zani in public enhances the excellence of this act....[/b:post_uid1]

Ayatollah al-Udhma Langaroudi says:

[b:post_uid1].....since Qama-Zani is one of the Sha'a'er. Needless to say that to practice this Sha'a'er in public is better.[/b:post_uid1]

So, what you say, that if a person would love Imam Hussain he will do it in private is contrary to these fatawas...I know many Grand Ayatollahs dont think like this.... BUT.. the question wasn't this... The question was that why do they contradict SO MUCH..

It is a fact that this issue, has not been commited by the Ma'sumeen. [b:post_uid1]It was not practised for hundreds of years, yet the message of Karbala reached us.[/b:post_uid1]

Bro. the event when Hazrat Ovaes Qarni broke his teeth occured during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammad pbuh and Prophet Muhammad liked this act..

and this qama is also heavily related with the type of mourning he did (infact it is less than that)

Nor is it known that any mujtahid has done this themselves (which is odd, if they say it is of high reward).

Lets see what Ayatollah al-Udhma Muhammad Sadiq Rouhani has to say about it  :)

[b:post_uid1]...One of the things that I regret not doing is that I did not have the honour to perform this great practice, and now that I am old and frail, I am unable to perform it.

In any case, from all the people who have had the honour to perform this religious symbol I wish to ask them to pray for me after performing Qama-Zani. [/b:post_uid1]

It is obvious from what I explained that if anyone seriously did it for pure love of the martyrs, he would hide himself from eyes of men and do it in private. We know however, from experience, that the majority who do this are not the most learned in our society. They are not the most educated. They are not, the ones who practise Islam all the time, and we know that the Ma'sumeen did not encourage this actively nor did they tell people to follow this. We also know that the majority of generations of our forefathers, did not practise this.

I think, I have given the answer(above) of your first line.

Now for the second thing...

But we know from our experience as well as evidence that those who allow and encourages it are the [b:post_uid1]most learned[/b:post_uid1]They [b:post_uid1]ARE[/b:post_uid1] the most educated. They [b:post_uid1]ARE[/b:post_uid1] the ones who practise Islam all the time.

And may I ask how do we know that mas'oomens didnt encourage this actively nor did they tell people to follow this? means those who are saying to do this as it is Mustahab and according to Agha Shirazi RAAJIH are going against the masoomeens by encouraging it and telling people to do this since it is Mustahab or RAAJIH?

[RAAJIH means MUSTAHAB that could become WAJIB depending on the circumstances]

And you know better than me, because these things are more common in Pakistan. How many, in percentage, of the people who do it there are literate (not just your own city, but all of the Shias of Pakistan)?

Ok, well the majority of those who do it are literate (where I am), but if you would see the WHOLE Pakistan then obviously the majority will be illetrate, because the majority here is illiterate.

and for the rest of your post, I think the above answers are sufficient.. you have emphasized on the character of people who do it, but bro. please also see those who have allowed and encouraged it.. whatever u have said that those who do this are NOT, the people who have allowed have ALL those qualities...

Because it ceases to fill a real and purposeful function. It doesn't help Islam. It doesn't give anything to Imam Hussein . It doesn't give anything to the Ummah. It doesn't even give anything to the individual in many cases, because it is merely a tradition.

Single answer for all these questions, Then why is this act being encouraged by so many Grand Ayatollahs?? if it doesnt help Islam, it doesnt give anything to Imam Hussain and if it doesnt give anything to the Ummah.

and for your last line brother..

It doesn't even give anything to the individual in many cases, because it is merely a tradition.

It gives thawaab(reward) to him.. what else one wants?

[this what many Gr.Ayatollahs say]

and bro. this is a culture tradition whatever, but it is a religious ritual/tradition... Just like Azadari is also a tradition/ritual but a religious one... and it does give huge many things all (ummah, indivisuals etc..)

------OK

I am ending this post here, because it wasn't related to the real topic..

neither with the thread's topic (mysticism) nor with the question I asked :) , my question wasn't this that whether we should do it or not.. my question was about the differences between the teachings of Maraja's

ok Thanks...

I'll answer about the rest of your post in the next reply

Edited By Peer Syed Sahib on 1035633370

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A says- This Wahdatul Wajud concept is completely Shirk and thus its follower is a Kafir..

B says - Mr B follows it himself

This issue is not related, as it has nothing to do with fiqh or taqlid. It's personal opinions which cannot be emulated.

A says- You cannot in anyways abolish your child

B says- It is allowed (in the case of over population etc )

Don't know what you mean.

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(salam)

Brother Orion,

I am afraid brother you need to ask yourself some questions. You can not claim that the Wilayat al Faqih (Sayed Khomeini Rahimahu Allah) is the representative of al Qaim (ATF) and at the same time disagree with a blink of his eye, either accept Wuhdut al Wujud or denounce his Infallibility (3ismah).

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Guest shaheed-awwal

In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

Firstly, I would like to respond to my respected and esteemed and 'alem brothers, Abdul Hujjah, Abdul Hasnain, and Ya Ali and others who have stated that those people who follow the doctrine of Wahdat ul-Wujud are indeed practicing shirk.

My brothers you have been given an opportunity to confirm the beliefs of Tawheed as understood by the 'Urafa (which are indeed completely in sync with the teachings of the Quran and of the Ahl al-Bayt) - by taking up the opportunity of going to the Islamic Republic of Iran, to the Islamic Seminary, yet you have chosen to completely reject this.

Is this fair?  You quote all manner of "proofs", and claim that certain Ulema are practicing something which is tanamount to polytheism (shirk).

My dear and respected brothers, with all due respect, but do have no shame?  It saddens me to see this sort of talk, especially when it is apparent that not even one of you has read the extensive list of articles that I had posted previously.

I will not post it here again, that would repetitive, you know where the post is - I will give you a link to the page, you should really read - with an open mind - and then attempt to discuss the subject.

The link is:

What is your opinion on 'irfaan' (gnosis)? (Page 3)

I would sincerely urge you to read this - regardless of whether you follow the line of the Gnostics or that of the Theologians.

Br Abdul Hasanain, I would urge you, as my beloved brother, not to fall into the trap of speaking regarding about that which you have limited knowledge.  When knowledge is lacking - it is advisable to keep quiet and learn.  

I am willing to overlook your statement about the Leader of the Muslim Ummah, and the Protector of the Oppressed, Imam Sayyed Ali al-Khamenei(HA), since I am pretty certain that you are indeed ignorant of the entire issue, and have been given clear proofs previously on the post by Br Jondab-Ali.

My offer to take my esteemed brothers and sisters to the Islamic Republic of Iran, more specifically to the Islamic Seminary of Qum, and to introduce you to high ulema who follow the line of the Urafa, who teach the books of Ibn 'Arabi and Mulla Sadra, in the light of the teachings of the Quran and the Ahl al-Bayt(A), teachers that I have had the honour being in lectures with, is open, and I am waiting for my beloved brothers and sisters to simply acknowledge that they are interested and preparations can be made.

I have made this offer previously to others who slandered other Ulema, the offer to meet such Ulema and discuss the issue directly with them, my offers were always left unanswered, I do not know why, people who know me - I am sincere in making my offers, my offer stands for those brothers - they know who they are.

As for the brothers over here, the people you choose to slander - for indeed that is what it is - have now ascended this material plain, and cannot answer your queries directly and in person, but I am more than able - insha Allah - to arrange for you meetings with their students, and also with the Leader of the Muslim Ummah(HA).

I do not like the fact that this board, has become a constant place for the slander of a group of Ulema, a group who have shown the world that the true Islam of Muhammad(S) is a dynamic force for social, economic, political and spiritual change.  Ulema who have indeed answered the call of al-Husayn(A) in Kerbala, where he cried out "Hal Min Nasir Yansurni?!".

I cannot understand why this is the case.

There is one reason, but I shall refrain from mentioning it since I may hurt the feelings of my esteemed brothers and sisters, but if this line continues, I am ready to take more drastic action to stop this slander.

This is not for the benefit of the Ulema you slander, they are beyond this slander, and higher than this - but for the reason that I love you, my brothers, and do not wish for you to ready a pit, filled with those who have disobeyed the commands of Allah and slandered innocent men and women.

I am nothing more than a small student of Islam, who cannot bear to see people making a dash headlong towards their own distruction, wearing blinkers and not willing to heed the advise that will save them.

I am not saying that you must accept the concept of Wahdat ul-Wujud, like others have said, this is a concept that you can choose to accept or reject, it is a matter of the fundamentals (Usul) of the faith.

It is [b:post_uid0]haraam[/b:post_uid0] to make taqleed (to imitate) anyone in this regard, you must be able to satisfy yourself with regard to these.

It is clear what the Usul of the religion are:

  • Tawheed (Unity of Allah)
    Adalah (Justice of Allah)
    Nubuwwah (Prophethood)
    Imamah (Vicegerency of the Prophets)
    Ma'ad or Qiyamah (Judgement/Resurrection)

It is [b:post_uid0]haram (completely forbidden)[/b:post_uid0] to make taqleed in this, so any fatawi you bring regarding the Usul is void.

When Shaheed Mutahhari(A) states, that the Tawhid as a general concept is different to that of an aref, it is simple to understand, the depth of understanding is different.

In the same manner, a cancer specialist will understand a malignant melanoma in more detail than the layperson, even though the layperson may know that a malignant melanoma is a bad thing, the cancer specialist will understand the finer points of the condition.

This is a simple yet required analogy for those of us who cannot comprehend the words of Shaheed Mutahhari(A) one of the most senior architects of the Islamic Revolution, and instead choose to insult him.

Like I have said, and I am repeating this because there are people who read what I write selectively, and I pray they will in their selection process read this as well.

If you really are sincere, and just, you will take up my offer.  If you are not, then you will just avoid mention of it - and reject the concept and declare people who have greater comprehension and understanding that you do as people who commit shirk.

This is you final warning from me.  I will not tolerate this, and since I was banned from shiachat as shabbirh in the past, for the same sort of reason, protecting the Ulema that people choose to slander, and following my banning, shiachat stated that it would adopt a policy where not slander of the Ulema was allowed - yet it is has openly gone against its own policy here.

Remember, Allah is watching, shiachat, you have yet again been warned.  Do not - this is not an idle threat - do not make people who care about the true Islam take this further.

This insanity [b:post_uid0]will[/b:post_uid0] stop.  Do not think that the true believers in the Justice of Allah are afraid.

With Salaams and Dua's

Shabbir

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Salaam alaikum,

As per the rules of Shiachat, members are asked to refrain from showing disrespect to any of the Scholars.  Any more posts of this type will be edited and/or deleted.  The member doing this will also be sent a warning.  

It might also be useful for members to re-read the rules of Shiachat.  There is a link to the rules in the top left hand corner of the page.

WaSalaam, Hajar

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bismillah

(salam)

A warning has been sent to the individual concerned, just for a reminder that there is 0 tolerance for posts against ANY mujtahid.If one posts attacking any of them, the post will be immediatly deleted and a warning will be sent.If one is arrogant enough to continue, he or she will be banned at the 3rd warning.

Wasalam,Hezbullahi

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786-110

(salam)

Shame, shame, shame,:angry:

the aarifs always get the last laugh on this board, alhamdulillah, i know they won't when it counts. Why is it cool to bad mouth Muntazeri but it's blasphemy if you even comment on Khomeini. Khomeini is a human he made mistakes, I don't hate the guy, I disagree with his philosophy that is all, I think if it wasn't for him islam wouldn't be known in a lot of the parts of the world.

Wassalaam

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bismillah

I will do the same to anyone who speaks ill of Ayatullah Montazeri. I said on my last post, ANY marja. Just report any post to me and I will take care of it.

Wasalam,Hezbullahi

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