Can God create anything? and everything?

[alifaia]

This guy in the office asked me an interesting question... sounds stupid yet at the same time its quite valid too...

Since God can create anything n everything can He create another god?

Ali

[Ridah_Zainab]

Salam

Hmmmm well I think YES god can create another GOD - but the question is WHY wud he???

My question - Allah is everlasting and has been ever-living - 'how did god come into existence'? I feel bad for asking it, but some threads on the forum have made me think more abt this question! My mum always says - dont ask WHY - sum things we will NEVER Understand or be able to comprehend.

ws

Ridah

[Ex-Muslim]

The answer is no.

God can't create another God with equal abilities. That will contradict His eternal attributes!

[Ex-Muslim]

The answer is no.

God can't create another God with equal abilities. That will contradict His eternal attributes!

wat do u mean it'll contradict his eternal attributes???????????

cant god do watever he likes?

One of Allah's name is "Ya Ahad (The One)"....if He creates another God, He is no longer The One, but The Two.....He cannot contradict His eternal attributes.

He begets not nor is He begotten.

This is in no way limiting His Power.

[alifaia]

well the other thing is if God did create another god then there are

1- 2 infinite gods....

2- 2 gods with space limits...

but if God cant create another god then doesnt it become a limitation too??

i know this is a real stupid Q but dats how we learn...

[Ridah_Zainab]

Salam

No its not a silly question. Its good to see you are brave to ask what probably others may of thought from time to time.

Hmmm well Like I said God CAN create another god, but the fact is he wouldnt, as Ex said he is Ahad - the ONE and the ONLY.

So it doesnt show limitations, because if he wanted to he could, but he wouldnt, because he is only one. There is no god of worthy of worship but god!

And wow Ex bro, admit it, you didnt like the thought that god, was incapable of something, u didnt like the thought that he had limitations, so you believe he is master of all, he knows what is in the heavens and what is in the earths, and to him you will surely return!

C;mon bro..say - 'Ashadon Ana La illaha Ilalla'...u will feeel soooo good! :)wallah

[Muhammed Ali]

the question is can god do something that is rationally impossible? there are some hadith on this....

[Renaissance_Man]

Since God can create anything n everything can He create another god?

(bismillah)

(salam)

Think about what is being asked: can God create something such that it is uncreated? This question is a logical fallacy.

[SadrasStudent]

Insh'Allah this might help. Its a post I made a while ago on a thread treating a rather similar issue:

One finds a perfect answer to this very question in a beautiful hadith Ayatullah Jawadi Amuli quotes in "A Commentary on Theistic Arguments":

"A rationally impossible thing cannot have an external extension. Therefore, when Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, peace be with him, was asked about God's power to place the world in an egg-shell, he responded, 'Although God's power is infinite, nevertheless, what you are asking is a nothing." (pp. 219-220)

A "nothing" (la shai) is a rational impossibility. Allah cannot do what is logically impossible - He cannot be unjust, create a stone he cannot lift, make 2+2=5, etc. Yet this does not really contradict the fact that Allah is All Powerful. Allah has power over all things - but in these cases there is no "thing" for Him to have Power over (i.e. there is no object of power present). Allah can indeed do anything. However, a rational impossibility is a "nothing," and "nothing" obviously does not and cannot fall under the category "anything." This was (and still is) a long-standing debate between the Sunni Ashari theologians and the philosophers. The Asharis said Allah's Absolute Power means all options are open and all outcomes are possible. Thus in their view Allah can be unjust, create a stone he cannot lift, make 2+2=5, etc. The philosophers disagreed. They said Allah's Absolute Power means "If He wills it, it will happen; if not, not." Thus, ***IF*** Allah willed to be unjust (or create a stone he could not lift, make 2+2=5, etc.), it would happen. However, it is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE He would ever so will.

Here is another explanation from the Ahlul Bayt Aalim Network archive:

QUESTION:

I was asked once about the ability of Allah, and I could not find a

convincing answer for the question in the books I know and have looked at.

His question was , since Allah is able to do everything, can He create some

thing big that He can not carry?. And if He can, how is He able to do

everything?. And if He cannot, how can He not carry this thing while He is

able to do everything?

I have also heard in one Islamic lecture, that its impossible for Allah to

make two opposite different things like day and night occur at the same

time, I could not understand this point clearly. Can you guide me to some

books that answer these kind of questions?.

One last thing, is there any problems thinking about these kind of questions

, or it is something over the human ability of thinking?.

ANSWER:

My dear fellow Muslim, the question raised in your mail is a very common

question among some people, even in university class rooms. I have come

across many different believers who have challenged by their atheist

philosophy instructors in universities with very similar questions. These

questions are basically designed to show contradictions in the religious

conception of God. What they are doing is constructing a fictional God and

then criticising it. Their God has no reality- it exists only in their mind.

To show you what extent is the Islamic understanding of God is

sophisticated; suffice it to mention that a scholar such as Allameh

Tabatabai(rh) used to say

that "one has to spend forty years studying to get some understanding of

LA ILLAHA ILLA- Allah (there is no god but Allah)".

Having said this, let me try to respond to your question in general terms,

hoping you find it helpful.

First of all you should know that nothing has come or will come into being

from absolute nothingness. If you hear that we say God brought us into

being from "'udum" (nothingness), this is a relative nothingness. In other

words, we did not exist in our present form previously, but we used to

have other forms of beings. For that purpose nothing will ever disappear

totally from the scene of Being.

Secondly, if we go back in the chain of being as much as possible, we will

end up in our original state of being in God's knowledge. These states of

being are called " a'ian-e- sabete" by some scholars. They are internal

beings and have some sorts of existence in God, but to have external

existence, they have to be externalized by God. Creation is nothing but

externalizations of these "Sowar 'Ilmi" (internal forms).

Thirdly, These "Sowar" (Forms) have their own conditions, requirements, or

limitations. God's creation is "J'al-e" (establishment of ?) of these

forms in the external world. In other words, God does not make X, for

example, X or Y, God puts (to use a simple term) X outside in the external

world. This observation has a very important implication for your

question. That is, God's power is over things not over nothingness. In the

Holy Quran we read that Allah "'ala kul-i shi-n qadir" (has power over

every thing).

Our ideas of logical contradictions (such as your example of DAY and NIGHT

co-existing at the same time in the same place and with other logical

unities) are only ideas in our mind, they are not things in themselves. Yes

as ideas they are things and they exists in our minds but as externalities

they are nothing. Abosulte Nothingness is not subject of God power, not

because God is not powerful but because there is nothing to exercise power

over.

Power must have an object. If one asks why God does not create those object

in the first place, we should remind that person what creation is.

For that matter, read my first point again till you fully understand it.

As I noted, we must first know what our conceptions of God and creation are

and then attempt to see if there is a contradiction involved. I know this is

not an easy task but it is worth the effort if you are interested. I also

know that my respons does not answer all you questions, it may even give

rise to new questions for you, but I like you to know that I was also

bothered once with similar questions, it takes time to reach to a better

understanding of our belief system as Muslims, but today I have come to the

conclusion that these questions are not any challenge to our belief to God.

On the contrary, we find out the richness of our teaching, especially in

Shia' when we are confronted with these types of questions from non-believers.

With Regards

Mohammad

[Zuljenah]

Asalaamu Alaikum

Wow, Thats an interesting question. I've never thought about that. But I have thought about... Where did God come from? I go insane thinking about it sometime. Although I will never know the answer probably, I know that there is a God because where did we come from then? We had to be created by something... well, yesterday I started thinking about it again... I shouldn't think about it... Because my mum says that one of two things can happen: 1) You are not knowledgeable enough to comprehend such things and these shaytanic thoughts will lead you away from Islam, or 2) If you are able to understand, you will gain a much greater understanding and have a deeper appreciation for Islam and Allah, and you will become a better Muslim. I am guessing that most people who do think about it end up in the number 1 group (If it bothers them so much, that is). So anyway...

What do you do when you start wondering where God came from? There is no answer, right?? *sigh* I just don't understand how something (God) can come into being without being created. It hurts my brain thinking about it :blink: What should I dooo??? Well, I know I shouldn't think about it, so I can go for months and never think about it, but then out of nowhere it'll come into my head (like it did last night) and now I am thinking about it again. But hopefully I'll stop thinking about it again

Anywhooo

I guess that's enough of my babbling for now!!

Take care, ma'Salaama :)

[Renaissance_Man]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Sis. Zuljenah, if we suppose Allah/God came into existence at some point then the thing which created Him would be god and then you'd ask who created that thing and we'd have to acknowledge that thing as god and no doubt the question would arise who created this god and the cycle would then continue infinately. At some point it would become necessary to acknolwedge an uncaused self-existing first who is responsible for this whole cycle and that is Allah/God and we cannot imagine something before it since it is the beginning of everything.

Some hadith from the Ahl al-Bayt (as):

Nafi' ibn al-Azraq (ibn Qays al-Hanafi, Abu Rashid [d.65/685], the head of al-Azariqah — one of the great sects of the Kharijites) asked Imam abu Ja' far (a.s.). "Please tell me when did Allah come into existence?" The Imam replied, "(Tell me) when did Allah not exist, so that I would tell you when He came into existence. Glory belongs to Him, Who existed and will exist eternally. The One Self-sufficient, the Eternal, the Absolute, Who has not held for Himself no female companion or any child."

Muhammad ibn Yahya from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from al-Husayn ibn Sa'id from al-Qasim-ibn Muhammad from Ali ibn Abu Hamzah from abu Basir who has said the following. "A man came to Imam abu Ja‘far (a.s.) saying, ‘Tell me about your Lord. When did He come into existence?’" The Imam (a.s.) replied, "Woe upon you! Such question is asked only about a thing that did not exist. My Lord, all Glory belongs to Him is and will be eternally. He lives and no How question applies to Him. He did not have any coming into existence and nor there was any being for His coming into being. This does not apply to Him because He is not subject to the effects of space. He was not in any thing or on any thing nor did He invent any space for His own space. He did not become stronger after making all things nor was weak before giving being to the beings. He was not lonely before His inventing all things. He is not similar to any thing that could be called a thing. He was also not without Kingdom before the creation and nor will He be without it after all things. He lives eternally without life and the powerful king before His invention of the things and He is an all powerful king after the creation of all things. To His existence no How or Where question is applicable. There is no limit for Him nor is He definable by analogy. He does not become old due to eternal living. He doe not become alarmed because of any thing but that all things are fearful of His (disappointment). He lived without newly emerging life. He is not a describable being or that could be limit with conditions or that would have a space to depend on. He does not have a place so that He can be considered as neighboring something. He is living and one can know Him. He is the eternal King. He has the power and the kingdom. He has created all that He wanted and when He decided by His will. He can not be limited. He can not be divided or destroyed. He was before everything but no How question would apply to Him. He will be the last but no Where will apply to Him. All things will be destroyed except He. The creation belongs to Him and His is the command. He is the Holy Lord of the worlds. O inquirer, imaginations can not encompass my Lord and He does not face any confusions or bewilderment. Nothing is able to escape Him and nothing happens to Him. He can not be held responsible for anything and He does not become regretful. Neither slumber nor sleep overcomes Him. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth and all that is between them and under the soil.

"The Jews came to their chief Ra’sul-Jalut and said, 'This man, meaning thereby Imam Ali (a.s.), is a scholar. Come with us to ask him questions. They all came to Imam Ali (a.s.) but the Imam was in the castle (Government building). They waited till the Imam (a.s.) came out. Ra'sul-Jalut, said, "We have come to you with a question." The Imam said, "O Jew, ask whatever you like." He said, "I would like to ask you about your Lord. When did He come into existence?" The Imam (a.s.) replied, "(Allah) has always been without coming into being and without being a subject to a How question. He is eternal without quantity and quality. He was there without a Before. He is before every before without being before and without a beginning and end. The end falls short before Him and He Himself is the end of all ends." Ra'sul-Jalut then said to his people, "Let us leave this place. This man knows more than what is said he knows."

"One of the Jewish rabbis (hibr) came to Imam Ali (a.s.), and asked, ‘O Amir al-Mu’minin, when did your Lord come into existence?’" Imam Ali (a.s.) replied, "Bereft of you be your mother! When has Allah not been (in existence), so that it could be said when did He come into existence. My Lord existed before any before without being before. He is after every after, without being after. There is no finale destination or end for Him. All ends fall short before Him. He is the final destination of all goals." He further asked, "O Amir al-Mu’minin, are you a prophet?" Imam Ali (a.s.) replied, "Hold it there. I am one of the slaves of Muhammad,(s.a.) the Messenger of Allah."

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Muhammad ibn al-Walid from ibn Abu Nasr from Abul Hassan al-Muwsali who has narrated the following from abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.). "A rabbi hibr came to Imam Ali (a.s.) and asked, ‘O Amirul Mu’minin, when did your Lord come into existence?’" Imam Ali (a.s.) replied, "Consider carefully. The question When applies to one who did not exist (and then came into being). When does not apply to the One Who is eternal. He was before the before without before and after the after without an after. He is not the end of some end so that His end would also end." He then asked, "Are you a prophet?" Imam Ali (a.s.) replied, "Bereft of you be your mother! I am a salve among the slaves of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.)."

[Zuljenah]

Sis. Zuljenah, if we suppose Allah/God came into existence at some point then the thing which created Him would be god and then you'd ask who created that thing and we'd have to acknowledge that thing as god and no doubt the question would arise who created this god and the cycle would then continue infinately. At some point it would become necessary to acknolwedge an uncaused self-existing first who is responsible for this whole cycle and that is Allah/God and we cannot imagine something before it since it is the beginning of everything.

Asalaamu Alaikum,

As I was typing my post, I thought about that. So I know what you mean :) I know it's a question I shouldn't think about... It just pops into my head sometimes though... stupid shaytanic thoughts, hehe :)

Thank you for the reply Bro Ali :)

Take care, ma'Salaama

[Ex-Muslim]

well the other thing is if God did create another god then there are

1- 2 infinite gods....

2- 2 gods with space limits...

but if God cant create another god then doesnt it become a limitation too??

i know this is a real stupid Q but dats how we learn...

Thats a good question. God cannot do something which is illogical.

What you said is correct also, anything created that contradicts His attribute will limit God. He will not create it, not a weakness but an illogical reason.

[Ex-Muslim]

And wow Ex bro, admit it, you didnt like the thought that god, was incapable of something, u didnt like the thought that he had limitations, so you believe he is master of all, he knows what is in the heavens and what is in the earths, and to him you will surely return!

C;mon bro..say - 'Ashadon Ana La illaha Ilalla'...u will feeel soooo good! :)wallah

Ashadon Ana La Illa.........nah. My mind wont let me.

[Ex-Muslim]

Since God can create anything n everything can He create another god?

Think about what is being asked: can God create something such that it is uncreated? This question is a logical fallacy.

I disagree. Why can't god create anything eternal? The question is not flawed.

Creating an immortal entity with powers and abilities can be created, but would be illogical to create because it would limit god.

Edited October 23, 2003 by Ex-Muslim

[Renaissance_Man]

(bismillah)

(salam)

I disagree. Why can't god create anything eternal? The question is not flawed.

If something is created from non-existence, it cannot be eternal.

Creating an immortal entity with powers and abilities can be created, but would be illogical to create because it would limit god.

Suppose God did create such an entity, call it God2. It could never be like God in the true sense because the fact would remain God2 had a beginning and exists through virtue of God1. You cannot say something is eternal and at the same time admit a beginning for it.

[Ex-Muslim]

If something is created from non-existence, it cannot be eternal. 

So a immortal entity with powers which will live forever and ever cant be eternal? Why cant a creation become eternal? Logically possibel.

Suppose God did create such an entity, call it God2.  It could never be like God in the true sense because the fact would remain God2 had a beginning and exists through virtue of God1.  You cannot say something is eternal and at the same time admit a beginning for it.

Why does it matter if one was created while the other existed? A craetion can become eternal....unless you have any other logical proof it cant.

God can create an eternal entity even though God2 was created.

[Renaissance_Man]

(bismillah)

(salam)

The fact that something came to exist when it was not precludes the possibility of it ever existing for all time.

[Ex-Muslim]

The fact that something came to exist when it was not precludes the possibility of it ever existing for all time.

It is a fact that a creation 'can' be eternal.

Don't know why you use 'time' when it is a creation itself. :rolleyes:

Edited October 23, 2003 by Ex-Muslim

[Renaissance_Man]

(bismillah)

(salam)

Define "eternal".

[Ex-Muslim]

Define "eternal".

adjective: tiresomely long; seemingly without end

Example: "The wait seemed eternal"

adjective: lasting for an indefinitely long period of time

adjective: continuing forever or indefinitely

[Renaissance_Man]

(bismillah)

(salam)

I prefer this definition:

e·ter·nal    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (-tûrnl)

adj.

Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time. See Synonyms at infinite. 

Created things can be eternal in the sense that once they come into existence, they can continue to exist for an indefinate period of time. But Allah/God's eternity means He has existed without any beginning. Anything which came into existence at some point can never be eternal in the true sense of the word.

[Ex-Muslim]

(bismillah)

(salam)

I prefer this definition:

e·ter·nal    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (-tûrnl)

adj.

Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time. See Synonyms at infinite. 

Created things can be eternal in the sense that once they come into existence, they can continue to exist for an indefinate period of time. But Allah/God's eternity means He has existed without any beginning. Anything which came into existence at some point can never be eternal in the true sense of the word.

I prefer the following definition:

Main Entry: 1eter·nal

1 a : having infinite duration : EVERLASTING b : of or relating to eternity c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God <good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? -- Mark 10:17 (Revised Standard Version)>

2 a : continued without intermission : PERPETUAL b : seemingly endless

3 archaic : INFERNAL <some eternal villain ... devised this slander -- Shakespeare>

4 : valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS <eternal verities>

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book...nary&va=eternal

OR

eternal [show phonetics]

adjective

lasting forever or for a very long time:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp...LD&desc=eternal

-------------------------------------

The dictionaries i used are Cambrigde and Merriam-Webster's (most popular).

A creation can live for eternity/infinite = TRUE.

The only technicallity you are using is "being without beggining", which is not used in the the definitions I got (plus the other one I posted). The importance is neverending....last foever....not cant be created. Ending is rellevant, not beggining.

Techinally, according to Islam....a human will live forever afterlife, for eternity (heaven).....forever....inifinte.....even though humans are a creation, but will become eternal evuantually.

Edited October 24, 2003 by Ex-Muslim

[Renaissance_Man]

(bismillah)

(salam)

No one is arguing that something cannot live forever. But the eternity you are talking about is a bounded eternity since it has a beginning wheras God's eternity has no beginning or end. 4 : valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS <eternal verities>

Think of a number line that goes from -infinity to +infinity. Our eternity is like 1 to infinity wheras God's is -infinity to +infinity. God's eternity is unbounded. He has no beginning, no end.

[Ex-Muslim]

(bismillah)

(salam)

No one is arguing that something cannot live forever. But the eternity you are talking about is a bounded eternity since it has a beginning wheras God's eternity has no beginning or end. 4 : valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS <eternal verities>

Think of a number line that goes from -infinity to +infinity. Our eternity is like 1 to infinity wheras God's is -infinity to +infinity. God's eternity is unbounded. He has no beginning, no end.

we have one difrerece....u claim to be eternal it cannot be created......i say a creation can be created and made to exist for eternity...which itself makes it eternal.

The only thing eternal is god....i know this is off topic, but how can an entity always exist? no beggining?

I know god is not physical but how can something just exist....and so absent by the way...lool

so powerful but yet so hidden,

[alifaia]

Our eternity is like 1 to infinity wheras God's is -infinity to +infinity. God's eternity is unbounded. He has no beginning, no end.

this is what we have been told and what we have read.... this is what the book says..

[shiaonline]

salam :!!!: Allah created the world and every thing he created but i dont know if he could creat something write now i dont know my answer but ask someone or ask god in your prayers.:)

[Ex-Muslim]

this is what we have been told and what we have read.... this is what the book says..

dont u ever wonder that everythig must have a beggining whether physical or non-physical.

God just existed....i mean...always there.

Liek wat does He do? What was HE doing before human creation?

these r question that wont get an answer cause it is impossible to know.

But can a God be created somehow?

[alifaia]

Salam Ex..

the question is can Allah create another god??? I know Allah always existed.... and if He did have a begining there is no way to find that out... as you said its impossible to know...

ofcourse its a ontradiction to say that Allah can create another god coz then you have 2 gods... both having a finite size or watever... this is not possible... Allah is infinite. period.

[Ex-Muslim]

Salam Ex..

the question is can Allah create another god??? I know Allah always existed.... and if He did have a begining there is no way to find that out... as you said its impossible to know...

ofcourse its a ontradiction to say that Allah can create another god coz then you have 2 gods... both having a finite size or watever... this is not possible... Allah is infinite. period.

yep......i agree.

[Abdul Hussain]

(bismillah)

(salam)

If Allah (SWT) created another god (astaghfurallah), then the other god wouldn't be a god because a god is not created. Capiche.

ws

[Ex-Muslim]

(bismillah)

(salam)

If Allah (SWT) created another god (astaghfurallah), then the other god wouldn't be a god because a god is not created. Capiche.

ws

Well..the main reason is because creating another god would contradict Allah's eternal attributes which would be illocigal to do.

But creating another god is logically possible.

[Guest Zelda]

hmmm intresting keep up the discussion :Hijabi:

Edited October 26, 2003 by Zelda

[adren@line]

there are many ways to look at this question:

on one hand God is limitless and eternal, and possess infinite power...

on the other hand, human "logic" says otherwise...

God, according to my first statement COULD create another God with the same amount of power if he/she so desired (because God can do ANYTHING)

Saying that God COULDNT do something based on HUMAN logic is limiting God....

Now for the sake of argument, God COULD possibly create another God, but that would fly in the face of the strict islamic monotheism..

I think this question is outside of human logic.

Edited October 27, 2003 by adren@line

[Lebstyle]

This guy in the office asked me an interesting question... sounds stupid yet at the same time its quite valid too...

Since God can create anything n everything can He create another god?

Ali

Interesting question. This question is relative to what definition of god you wish to discuss (Allah, jesus, etc). This question has many perspectives. Assuming god exists;

The first is Yes.

The answer yes, is because god is infinite therefore has the ability to do anything. Creating another (like humans are able to create other humans, or a-sexual cells other cells) should be easily achievable by this infinitely powerful entity. Since this being is "omnipotent" he has the potential to easily do anything, infinite in power means INFINITE in power. No limits, no finite limits.

The second perspective is;

No

God might be limited in that retrospect. Depending on what version of god, he could be neither omnipotent nor omnipresent therefore unable to reproduce himself therefore actually LIMITED in that aspect. One might view god as "not wanting to because it negates his awersome power'. One wonders, if god can, whats stopping him? One can even argue that there are 14,000 different version of god presented, were these actual creations made BY god himself?

A popular muslim argument would be "no god doesn't want to recreate himself because his is one and he wants to stay that way". Muslims would argue that Allah is Allah and doesn't sleep nor begots nor is begotten.

The third perspective is;

Unknown (N/A)

Since god cannot be prooven, how can we discuss this. It is similar to saying "can a green leprichuan (our creator) in dimension X create other green leprichauns?". The question leads to many answers that really can only be imagined. It is similar to discussing ghosts, you can invent rational for anything.

One must know that nature is a-moral. The nature of nature is not conscience being, nor any conscience entity. The good/evil and the anarchaic equilibrium prooves no conscince entity "watching" over. Dog eat dog, survival of the fittest. Again, with the introduction of man, came the introduction of the concept of god. Without man, there is are no gods.

Edited October 27, 2003 by Lebstyle