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In the Name of God بسم الله

Is it possible to prove from sunni sources that - Muhammed (pbuh) was

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salaam alaykum

how can we prove to sunnis that he (pbuh) was a prophet before 40 year of age?

the verse of the quran is used as proof by the sunnis:

[shakir 93:7] And find you lost (that is, unrecognized by men) and guide (them to you)?

[Yusufali 93:7] And He found thee wandering, and He gave thee guidance.

why has shakir put a questionmark after the parenthesis. it makes it look unconvincing.

do we have a good tafsir on this . a good proof

this is the pooya/ali tafsir:

[b:post_uid0]The character of the Holy Prophet was, even in his childhood and youth, exemplary and exceptional in the most wayward environment of Makka as is borne out by even his worst enemies. He remained aloof from the coarse and licentious practices of the young around him. Living in the midst of the worst idolatry and polytheism of Makka, reserved and meditative, endowed with refinement, truthfulness and utmost honesty, he earned the titles, by common consent, of al amin and as sadiq. He was under the constant guidance and care of Allah. So there is no implication whatever of error or fallibility on his part. The Arabic root dalla (in verse 7) has various shades of meaning. Here it does not mean astray or ignorant but in view of the occasion of revelation it should be translated "lost". While taking the Holy Prophet to his grandfather, his nurse Halimah left him by the roadside and went inside the desert to clean herself. When she came back the child was not there. After receiving the news from Halimah, Abdul Muttalib, with his friends and relatives, conducted a thorough search but the Holy Prophet was not traceable. Halimah, while making her own queries, met an old man in the precinct of Ka-bah and asked him: "Where is Muhammad?" It is said that when the name of the Holy Prophet was pronounced the idols fell on the ground in Ka-bah. In the meantime Abdul Muttalib arrived there with his men and invoked Allah's help to find out the Holy Prophet. A voice announced: "Go to the valley of Tahamah. He is there." Then Warqa bin Nawfil came and told Abdul Muttalib that he saw the boy in the valley of Tahamah. They at once went there and found the Holy Prophet playing with the branches of a tree. The Holy Prophet, whom his grandfather had not seen since his birth, told him: "I am Muhammad" He took him in his arms and embraced him for a long time. This verse refers to the event mentioned above.[/b:post_uid0]

do we have any other proofs? from hadith or quran?

sunnis use their belief to justify what is written in their books about the prophet before he was 40. eg the incident narrated in bukhari about the rebuilding of the kaba.

wa salaam

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(salam)

brother muhammad ali

brother saleh el sufi has provided these references in the other thread titled shias slander Allah

The Khatm-Al-Enbiya Muhammat Al-Mustafa sallalahu Alayhi Wa Sallam is Not Like us, He is The BEST creations and He is the Most Closest to Allah, He is the one who was created before All creations,

·         `Irbad ibn Sarya relates that the Prophet said: "Verily I was written in Allah's Presence as the Seal of Prophets while verily Adam was still kneaded in his clay." (Narrated by Ibn Hibban in his Sahih, and al-Hakim in his Mustadrak.)

·         The Prophet also said: “I was a Prophet while Adam was still between the spirit and the body.” Tirmidhi narrated it and said it hasan sahih, and it is authenticated by al-Hakim 2:609 as sahih, and also narrated by Ibn Abi Shayba in his Musannaf 14:292, and al-Bukhari in his Tarikh 7:374.

was salam

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Salaam alaikum,

Our Scholars also say that he began his mission when he was 40.  

[i:post_uid0]A Shi'ite Encyclopedia - Infallability of the Prophets part 1

For instance, although Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) became Messenger at the age of forty, the Shia assert that even in the first forty years of his life, he was sinless and infallible -- an assertion that history attests to as well.

The Message, by  

Ayatullah Ja'far Subhani

Firstly by studying his forty years' life preceding his appointment to the prophetic mission, and secondly by scrutinizing what has been said on the subject by the leaders of Islam.

The Revealer, The Messenger, The Message, by  

(Martyr) Mohammad Baqir as-Sadr

He lived among them for forty years before his apostleship without their sensing anything distinguishing him from them, except his pure conduct.

Khadija tul Kubra, by Syed A.A Razwy

In A.D. 610 Allah Ta'ala chose Muhammed to be His messenger, and since then there was an accession of new duties for Khadija.

A Glance at the Life of the Holy Prophet of Islam, by by  

Dar Rah Haqq's Board of Writers

By the time the Holy Prophet of Islam reached the age of 40, he was ready for his divine mission."

Seal of the Prophets and His Message

Sayyid Mujtaba Musavi Lari

At the age of forty, the orphan son of Abdullah attained the exalted station of messengerhood.[/i:post_uid0]

WaSalaam, Hajar

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Reference Quran:

Quran continually says:  (Oh beloved), Remember that time when Ibrahim(as) and Ishmael were

Remember that time when the oath was taken from all the prophets!!!!

It is telling Muhammad(saws) this!

Hence, you only say remember the time to those who were present and watched this time!

Muhammad(saws) is made as a witness to mankind, did he not witness the first of mankind to the last of mankind?

Ya Ali Madad!

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The "Noor" (Light) is created

When Allah intended to create the creatures, He first created the "Noor" (Light) of Muhammad. Al-Qastalani (in Al Mawahibu'l-Ladunniyah, vol. 1, pp. 5, 9, 10) has quoted the Prophet's traditions to this effect as transmitted through Jabir ibn 'Abdullah al-Ansari and 'Ali (a.s.). The well-known historian al-Mas'udi (in his Maruju 'dh-dhahab) quotes a lengthy tradition from 'Ali (a.s.) to the effect that when Allah created, first of all, the Light of Muhammad, He said to it: "You are My chosen one and the Trustee of My Light and Guidance. It is because of you that I am going to create the earth and the skies, lay down reward and punishment, and bring into being the Garden and the Fire."

Ibn 'Abbas narrates saying that the Prophet said:

"I was Prophet when Adam was between soul and body (i.e. when Adam's creation was in its preliminary stages)" (at-Tabarani, Al-Mu'jjam al-Kabir; Al Khasa'is al-Kubra, vol.1, p.4).

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When Allah intended to create the creatures, He first created the "Noor" (Light) of Muhammad.

    Millions of Darood and Salaam on our Prophet (pbuh), but for my Guidance, please do post:

    If this noor was present all the time, on all occasions, on all places.????

===================================

Allah is Noor of Heavens and Earth. Source Quran:

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www.al-islam.org/quran

Holy Qur'an: 16:89

[shakir 16:89] And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.

[Yusufali 16:89] One day We shall raise from all Peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves: and We shall bring thee as a witness against these (thy people): and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

[Pickthal 16:89] And (bethink you of) the day when We raise in every nation a witness against them of their own folk, and We bring thee (Muhammad) as a witness against these. And We reveal the Scripture unto thee as an exposition of all things, and a guidance and a mercy and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah).

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 16:89]

The Holy Prophet, who came with the book ( a guide, a mercy and glad tidings to those who submit themselves to Allah) explaining all things, is a witness over all the witnesses. In addition to verses mentioned in the commentary of verse 84 of this surah, please refer to Bani Israil: 71 and An Nur: 24.

Evidence given by a witness can be accepted only when the witness has witnessed the event which is being examined. Every messenger of Allah will give evidence about the response of his people to whom he was sent to preach the message of Allah; while the Holy Prophet will be a witness over all the prophets and messengers of Allah who will be raised as witnesses over their respective followers.

The Holy Prophet said:

"I was the prophet of Allah when Adam was in the process of creation."

It implies that he was present in this world from the very beginning and will be here till the end to witness that which had happened and that which is taking place. It is nothing but a fabricated and mischievous tale, very popular among the common Muslims, that when Jibra-il came to him he could not recognise him, and was frightened so much that he began to tremble in fear; and at last came to his senses when his wife and her uncle, Warqa bin Nawfil, told him that he was chosen as the last messenger of Allah.

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AsSalaamu Alaykum

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[

Check the verse No4. of 28. The singular form of this arabic word you will find, be my guest??

]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

No we are no playing word games, that verse is talking about some one on this planet earth.

The verse in question is relating to the first event been described to us, where Iblis was not even so stupid to cxompare himself to the exalted ones he just =said

[shakir 38:75] He said: O Iblis! what prevented you that you should do obeisance to him whom I created with My two hands? Are you proud or are you of the exalted ones?

[shakir 38:76] He said: I am better than he; Thou hast created me of fire, and him Thou didst create of dust.

And no Iblis never said that he was god, read the verses after this to see he acknowledes God, day of judjement ..

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No we are no playing word games,

  Oh really!!!!!!!!!!!! "exalted ones", for God shake what the heaven you wish to dig to justify your predetermined and cemented ideas?

  Ok please now straight to my question with reference to verse No.102 Sura 12.

 [b:post_uid0] """Was that Noor present on all places, on all occasions, on all times"""""[/b:post_uid0]

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If thou obeyedst most of those on earth they would mislead thee far from Allah's way.[b:post_uid0] They follow naught but an opinion, and they do but guess. [/b:post_uid0]

6:116.

   Please prove your assertion from Quran, otherwise I am forced to think that you follow nothing but guess.

==============================

Quran: The criteria , Alfurqan, the final word,

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Please do leave your post on board. I will, Inshallah, reply to that, take your time, consult your Allama, or the Highest Scholar. I am available to discuss with you with reference to Quran.

  May Allah guide us to a Straight Path. Ameen.

waslaam.

==================================

Darood millions time on our Prophet(PBUH).

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Jabir b. Samura reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: [b:post_uid0]I recognise the stone in Mecca which used to pay me salutations before my advent as a Prophet and I recognise that even now[/b:post_uid0].

Sahih Muslim, Book 030, Number 5654

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Anonymous Brother-Ya Ali Madad!

I heard a Majlis with Profesor Abdul Hakeem talking about that ayat!  Anyhow, thats what I was gonna use, but I been away for a while!

Nadeem, tell us who these 2 hands were in this ayat that anonymous is using?

if you say Allah, then you are doing shirk, but your scholars agree that these hands were of Mual Ali(sa).

Anyhow, that hadith that Ali(sa) and Muhammad(saws) were made from one light comes to mind!

But leave all that on the side, tell me this:

Is Muhammad(saws) a not a made witness unto the whole of mankind???

Is Adam(as) part of mankind?

That's all folks!

If he says NO, then Nadeem has gone against quran....and we know what that makes him!

Ya Ali!

Ya Ali!

Ya Ali!!!!

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AsSalaamu Alaykum

Br. wrote:

 """Was that Noor present on all places, on all occasions, on all times"""""

YES, AND THE HOLY QURAN PROVES IT, AND YOUR LEARNED SCHOLARS ACCEPT IT.

[shakir 2:31] And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.

[Yusufali 2:31] And He taught Adam the names of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the names of these if ye are right."

[Pickthal 2:31] And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful.

Please read if your Alims accept

(:Durr al Manthur, Kanzul Ammal, Yanabi al Mawaddat, Riaz al Nuzra and Arjah al Mutalib)

[Yusufali 53:2] Your Companion is neither astray nor being misled.

[Yusufali 53:3] Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.

[Yusufali 53:4] It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:

[Yusufali 53:5] He was taught by one Mighty in Power,

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 53:5]

To know who is the teacher of the Holy Prophet see commentary of verses 2 to 4 of Ar Rahman.

Shadidul Quwa, "the supreme in power", is Allah. To translate and interpret it as the angel Jibrail is to belie the verses 30 to 38 of Baqarah (see commentary) and verse 75 of Sad, because Jibrail was one of the angels who prostrated themselves before Adam when Adam taught them "the names" they did not know. As mentioned in the commentary of the verses of al Baqarah, on the authority of well known Muslim scholars. (Refer to Durr al Manthur, Kanzul Ammal, Yanabi al Mawaddat, Riaz al Nuzra and Arjah al Mutalib), "the names" were-Muhammad, Ali, Fatimah, Hasan, Husayn. Even if "the names" are interpreted as wisdom, then too Jibrail cannot be the teacher of the Holy Prophet, as the Holy Prophet is the superior most prophet among all the prophets of Allah in wisdom and all other attributes. In verse 75 of Sad Allah asks Shaytan: "Are you arrogant, or are you one of the alin (the high ones)?" It means there were some servants of Allah described as alin (plural of ali) who were superior to Adam, therefore, exempted from prostrating themselves before Adam on account of their superiority over him. So it is proved that it is Allah who taught the Holy Prophet and from no mortal created being he received any kind of knowledge as mentioned in the commentary of Baqarah: 78 and other verses in connection with the interpretation of the word "ummi".

You are playing games with words and sometimes with no understanding of the two realms. 12:102 first why is God telling the Prpophet

pbuh

this ? what is the purpose of telling him that. If i were to say Br. Nadeem you were not there, i know and you know youwere not presant at my graduadion, i just meet you and telling you my life story.....What will be your opinion of me, ....second it mentions "with them" , did it say you didn't exist?

Br. we look at the compreshensive message of the Holy Qur'an, and with this you can't have a doubt about this or any other argument. But if you only get stuck in words, and sentances you are lost. When ever we talk about a subject we look at all the verses and what they present. There were EXLATED ONES "ALIN" present, then 2:31 your alims/scholors agree who these were, and ither verse points to his witness over all prophets at the end of time...i can bring you more so the complete picture will emerge, and this has been acknowledged by the learned among you.

Tell me Moses's mother was communicated with at his birth, and was directed to put him in river, and that he will be returned to her, Mary(s.a) was communicated with, Jesus(a.s) announced his prophethood from his cradle, God sent him with the knowledge of Torah, and Gospel,,,,,,you say that Prophet Muhammad  pbuh has been mentioned in the Holy Qur'an...So did God mention his name and went looking in Arabia, to find someone who fits the bill, and choose him at 40?   and Jibreal taught him, Maybe you should become a Christian, because as per your belief Jesus was taught by Allah(s.w.t) Himself, and may be the belief in Seal of the Prophets...should be reconsidered, since neither his parents nor he was a Muslim till 40, and was  only then taught by an angel,,,i am sorry, angels prostrated to Adam...so he was taught by one below Adam......

Should i go on, because there are two kinds of people we come across, one like me are ignorant but willing to learn, investigate and research..but others by their own choice want to stay ignorant....these we can't help.

WS.

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Despite my twice request, you could not paste that particular verse, I could have done myself and still can do but I wish to see it from your angle. You are only resorting to out of context ayats, and are trying to adjacent them with your predefined position. Brother, you do not have any convincing answer, just cut n pastte and that also without any logice whatsoever!!!!!!!!!!!

you say that Prophet Muhammad   has been mentioned in the Holy Qur'an...So did God mention his name and went looking in Arabia, to find someone who fits the bill, and choose him at 40?   and Jibreal taught him, [b:post_uid0]Maybe you should become a Christian,[/b:post_uid0] because as per your belief Jesus was taught by Allah(s.w.t) Himself, and may be the belief in Seal of the Prophets...should be reconsidered, since neither his parents nor he was a Muslim till 40, and was  only then taught by an angel,,,i am sorry, angels prostrated to Adam...so he was taught by one below Adam......

     Oh my God!!!!! what an intellectual reply it is?

Waslaam.

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(salam)

Just a nice tradition to share with you guys..

[b:post_uid1]Salman al-Farsi (ra) narrated that:I heard the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) saying: "I myself, and Ali were one light in the hands of Allah fourteen thousand years (14,000) before He created Adam (as). When Allah created Adam (as) He divided that light into two parts, one part is me and one part Ali."[/b:post_uid1][i:post_uid1]Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p663, Tradition #1130[/i:post_uid1]

ma salama

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Pir Bro- Ya Ali(sa) Madad!

I think you meant Salman Muhammadi(as) :D .  But yeah, quite right hadith!

Another is Oh Muhammad(saws) I would not have created the universe if it was not for you(saws), I would not create you(saws) if it was not for Ali(sa), & I would not create either of you two(saws & sa) if I never created Fatima Zahra(sa),

Besides Adam(as) was made from water and earth.  Earth needs a father, who is Abu Turab(sa)???

Surah 99 talks about a when one exclusive man asks the earth:

What has happened to you?

This ayat is regarding the Return/Rujaat of Imam Ali(sa) on this earth!

As I say, alot of merits r not told, cos our tawhid base may be weak!

ws

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Lantern of Path -Section 5

' "O Salman, Allah (SWT) created me from the quintessence of light,  and called me, so I obeyed Him.

Then He created 'Ali (a.s.) from my light, and called him, and he obeyed. From my light and the  light of 'Ali (a.s.) He created Fatimah (a.s.): He called her and she obeyed. From me, 'Ali (a.s.) and Fatimah (a.s.), He created al-Hasan (a.s.) and al-Husayn  (a.s.). He called them and they obeyed Him.

Allah (SWT) has named us with five of His names: Allah (SWT) is al-Mahmud (the Praised) and I am Muhammad (worthy of praise); Allah (SWT) is al-'Ali (a.s.) (the High), and this is 'Ali (a.s.) (the one of high rank); Allah (SWT) is al-Fatir (Creator out of nothing), and this is Fatimah (a.s.); Allah (SWT) is the One with Hasan (beneficence), and this is Hasan; Allah (SWT) is Muhassin (the Beautiful), and this is Husayn.

He created nine Imams (a.s.) from the light of al-Husayn  (a.s.) and called them and they obeyed Him, before Allah (SWT) created either Heaven on high, the out-stretched earth, the air, the angels or man. We were lights who glorified Him, listened to Him and obeyed Him."

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This cannot be authentic if it says Allah has hands. Isnt this against the Shia creed? Salaam.

salam.& sorry for poor english.

Shia cread believe that Allah is unvisible and He doesnt posses any hands or legs ...

[Holy Qur'an 38:75] "He said: O Iblis! what prevented you that you should do obeisance to him whom I created [b:post_uid0]with My two hands?[/b:post_uid0] Are you proud or are you of the exalted ones?"

If you are talking about the hands mentioned in this ayah, that means who ever created Adam a.s ,he has two hands like a human being posses.(keeping in mind that it cannot be Allah bec He doesnt have hands)

I dont know  book names  but Imam Ali a.s has said that " I have mixed up that sand/dust/clay  for 40 days with [b:post_uid0] my two hands [/b:post_uid0] from which Adam a.s was created"

Now if you say that in ayah 38:75 Allah has said "with my two hands",than I want to share something in this regard.Allah has called actions performed by sombody else as His own action.

[Yusufali 93:6] "Did He not find thee an orphan and give thee shelter (and care)?"

It is well known fact that after the demise of Prophet's father , Hazrat Abu talib (as) brought up Prophet pbuh,he gave Him shelter and provided Him protection against enemies .Abu Talib a.s often changed the places where Prophet pbuh used to sleep with the places of Abu Talib's own sons, to protect Him (pbuh) ,but here Allah is calling  the action of Abu Talib as Allah's own action of taking care and giving shelter.

[Pickthal 8:17] "Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower".

Here again ,Allah is calling the action performed by Muhammad (pbuh) as Allah's own action. So its not somthing abnormal.

Edited By BOY-NICE on 1035370101

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