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In the Name of God بسم الله

Debate of Prophet Muhammad

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Taken from the book "God of Islam" by Allama Sayyid Saeed Akhtar Rizvi ( http://www.sabznet.com/english/rooms/cultu...ed/knowing_god/ )

Chapter 7 and 9 contain a discussion of the Holy Prophet with atheists. It was a part of a great discussion in which thirty-five representatives of five religions (Jews, Christians, Atheists, Dualists that is Parsees, and Poly theists that is mushrikin) came to him and held discussions with him. In the end all accepted the truth of Islam, and became Muslims.

It is the beauty of the arguments put forward by the Holy Prophet that he explained highly philosophical subjects in such a simple language that even a layman could easily understand it. It is a masterpiece of "Wisdom and good preaching."

By the way, there are people who assert day in day out that the Holy Prophet learned from Judaism and Christianity. This discussion is a challenge to them. Let them produce such irrefutable argument from Jewish and Christian literature of early centuries before Islam.

It will not be out of place to mention that these apparently simple arguments hold their ground even today and they are as much valid today as they were 1,400 years ago. The discussion is narrated by Imam al-Hasan ibn Ali al-Askari (p.b.u.h.) in his tafsir (commentary), and al- Allamah at-Tabarsi has copied it in his famous al-Ihtijaj (vol. I); it has been translated (with short comments) into Urdu by Mawlana Muhammad Mustafa 'Jawhar' of Karachi and published twice. All three books are in my library.

The Holy Prophet had started his talks with Jews, then went on conversing with Christians, atheists, dualists and lastly with idol-worshippers.

Edited by Ali786
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Jews of Arabia in the days of Holy Prophet had lost their original beliefs. Being in touch with idol worshippers and Christians, they also had started the dogma of God having a son. As Uzayr had rewritten Torah after it had been lost for centuries, Jews revered him very much and started the claim that Uzayr was Son of God.

The Holy Prophet asked them what was the reason of their belief. They said that Uzayr re-wrote Torah for the children of Israel when it was lost to them and it shows that he was Son of God.

The Holy Prophet: Why Uzayr was son of God and Moses was not, as Moses brought Torah from God for the first time and bringing it first time is far more important than rewriting it?

Moreover, Moses showed many miracles, which Uzayr did not show. Therefore, if Uzayr was Son of God because God gave him the honor of rewriting Torah, Moses far more deserves to be the Son of God.

"Also, I take it that by son ship you do not mean that relationship which is established when a child is born from the womb of his mother after his parents establish sexual intercourse."

Jews confirmed it, saying that when they said that 'Uzayr was Son of God; they did not mean son ship by birth, but because of his honor with God. It has the same meaning as many teachers call their favorite pupil "my son".

The Holy Prophet said that he already had answered that argument when he said that by that standard Moses was more deserving to be called the Son of God.

And so far as the example of an elder calling some unrelated youth, as "my son" is concerned, let us look at such uses a bit further.

You must have seen that the same elder, while showing respect to some great scholar, calls him "my brother" or "my elder" or "my chief" or even "my father". Basing on such usage, will you say that Moses (who was more honored than ' Uzayr before God) should be called "Brother of God" or "Elder of God" or "Chief of God?" The Jews could not answer it and after some deliberation accepted Islam

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Christians had expressed their belief that God is one with Jesus and that Jesus was Son of God.

The Holy Prophet asked them what they meant by saying that eternal God is one with his son Jesus?

"Do you mean that the eternal (that is, God) became mortal as Jesus was?

" If you say so, it is impossible that eternal which has neither beginning nor end should be-come mortal, which has both beginning and end. Or do you mean that mortal (Jesus) be-came eternal as God is?

"But this also is impossible, because how can a thing which was created after nonexistence be eternal? "Or do you mean by this sentence (God is one with Jesus) that God gave Jesus honor, which was not given to anyone else?

"If so, then you will have to accept that Jesus was not eternal, as he was created; and that his quality of getting honor from God is also not eternal, because he got it after his being created. And in that case, Jesus cannot be one with God because eternal and transient cannot combine together."

Christians: " When God showed many wonderful miracles on the hand of Jesus, He made him His son as an honor."

The Holy Prophet drew their attention to what he had already told Jews on the subject of, Uzayr and son ship of God, and repeated that argument. The Christians could not answer the arguments.

Then after some deliberation one of them said that the scriptures have reported Jesus as saying, "I am going to my father." (This argument is based on the understanding that Jesus himself claimed that God was his father, and as the Holy Prophet accepted Jesus as a true prophet, his claim could not be wrong).

The Holy Prophet said that the wording is "I am going to my and your father." It means that all persons in the whole audience were sons of God in the same sense in which Jesus was Son of God.

"Further, this quotation refutes your claim that Jesus was Son of God because of the unique honor he had before God, because, according to your own belief, none among the audience had that honor and still they were called the sons of God."

After some deliberation they became Muslim.

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Theism vs. Atheism

Five atheists had a discussion with the Holy Prophet, at the end of which the Holy Prophet told them:

"This universe is of such a nature that some of its parts are dependent on some other parts; they cannot exist without those other parts, just as some parts of a structure depend upon other parts for their strength and existence. And that whole universe is, in this respect like that building. Now, tell me, if that part (which is dependent upon other parts for its strength and existence) is eternal in spite of its dependence and need, then what would have been its quality had it been just transient (possible, not eternal)? "

Yes. Let the atheists say what it would have been like if the matter were not eternal?


Here I give the translation of the discussion of the Holy Prophet with the atheists, a part of which has been mentioned earlier:-

The Holy Prophet asked them: "What is the reason of your belief that the universe has neither beginning nor end and that these things are from ever and will remain for ever?"

Atheists: " We believe only what we see. As we have not seen the beginning of the universe, therefore we say that it has always existed, and as we have not seen its extinction, we say that it will remain for ever."

Holy Prophet: "Well, have you seen that the universe is without beginning and without end?"

Atheists: "No, we have not seen its being without beginning nor have we seen its being without end. "

Holy Prophet: " Then how do you believe in its eternity? And why should your view be preferred to the view of that person who believes the universe to be transient because he has not seen it being without beginning or without end?"

Then after some more arguments the Holy Prophet asked: " Can you tell me whether the days (time) which have passed on this earth were finite (limited) or infinite (limitless)? If you say that the time, which has passed so far was limitless, then how the later time came in if the former did not pass away?

"And if you say that the time is finite (limited) then you will have to admit that it is not eternal."

Atheists: " Yes, it is finite. "

Holy Prophet: " Well, you were saying that universe is eternal, not created nor finite. Do you realize what is the implication of your admission that time is finite? What were you denying? What have you admitted?"

Atheists accepted that their belief was not correct.

Incidentally, this argument of the Holy Prophet shows that 'time' has unbreakable relation with matter. Otherwise, he could not have introduced the element of time in the discussion about matter. The beauty of this can best be appreciated by only those who have studied the theory of Relativity

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Dualists (present days' Parsees) believe that light and darkness are creators and rulers of the universe. The Holy Prophet asked them the reason of this belief. They said: "We find two kinds of things in this world-good and evil. These are opposites and we believe that the creator of good cannot be the creator of evil, and vice versa. These two opposites cannot be found together.

"Don't you see that snow cannot give warmth and fire cannot make cool? That is why we believe two separate creators for good and evil and they are represented by light and darkness and both are eternal."

The Holy Prophet said: "Pray tell me, have not you found in this world different colors black, white, red, yellow, green and blue? Is it not a fact that none of these colors can be found with another color in same place at same time?"

Dualists: "Yes. No two of these colors can be found in one place at same time."

The Holy Prophet said: Then, according to your thinking, you must believe that there is a separate creator for each one of these colors."

The Dualists could not give any answer to that argument.

Then the Holy Prophet asked them that light and darkness being opposites, how did it happen that both joined hands in creation and their creatures (good and evil) are together in this world? Doesn't it mean that there is a Superior power that has brought these opposites together?

They took time pondering upon these points and finally accepted Islam.

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Then the Holy Prophet asked the idol worshippers why they worshipped the idols instead of the one Almighty God.

They said: "We seek to be nearer to God through these idols."

The Holy Prophet: " Do these idols hear?

Are they pious and obedient servants of God? How can you seek nearness to God through them?"

Idol-worshippers: "No. They do not hear."

Holy Prophet: "And the fact is that you have carved these idols by your own hands. So, if these had ability to worship, it was incumbent upon them to worship you (because you are their creator) not that you should worship them.

"Moreover, God has never allowed you to worship idols (so how can you be nearer to God through these idols, without any authority from God?)."

On hearing this argument, the idol-worshippers split into three groups:-

One group said: "These are the images of those persons in whom God was incarnated. Thus we worship God by worshipping the images of those persons who were incarnation of God."

The Holy Prophet said:-

1. "Your belief that God was incarnated in anybody is absolutely wrong because you have made the Creator like His creatures. Don't you see that God cannot be incarnated in anything unless that thing surrounds God? (But how can anything surround God?)

2. "Also what will be the difference between God and other things which are found in a body (like color, taste, smell, hardness or softness, heaviness or lightness). All these things are found in other things, and have no independent existence. Is God also like this?

3. "Lastly, when you attribute to God a quality (incarnation) which is the quality of a transient (of a thing which was created after non existence), then why not believe that all qualities of a transient are found in Him. I mean, you must also believe that God changes and deteriorates and dies, because the body of His supposed incarnation changes and deteriorates and dies. It is impossible for the content not to change with the changes of the receptacle!

"All these considerations prove that it is impossible for God to be incarnated in any body."

"And when incarnation is wrong, there remains no basis for your belief that God was incarnated in some of His creatures and that these idols are the image of such persons."

The second group said that those idols were the images of those of past generations who were very obedient to God. "We carved their images and worship them with a view to glorify God through their worship."

The Holy Prophet asked them: "Pray tell me what kind of worship have you saved for Almighty God, when you are worshipping these images by prostrating before them, praying to them, and putting your head before them?

"Don't you know that it is the right of God that He should not be thought equal to His servant? If you honor a King in the same way as you honor his servant, will not it be an insult to the King?"

Idol-worshippers: "Yes. It is true."

The Holy Prophet: "Then, don't you realize that by worshipping the images of the creatures, you are insulting the Creator?"

The last group said: "Cod created Adam and ordered the angels to prostrate before him. We more deserve to prostrate before Adam (because we are his children). As Adam is not alive today, we have carved his image to prostrate before it and to seek nearness to Cod through that worship."

The Holy Prophet told them: "Accepted that God ordered the angels to prostrate before Adam. But has He ordered you to prostrate before the image of Adam? Adam and his image are not one and same thing. How are you sure that Cod is not displeased with your prostration before Adam's image?

"Look at it in this way. If a man allows you to enter his house one day, do you have any right to enter that house next day? Or to enter his other house the same day?

"If a man gives you a gift of one of his clothes, or one of his horses, are you justified in taking it?"

Idol worshippers: "Yes, we will take it.

The Holy Prophet: "If you don't accept that cloth or horse, do you have any right to take his other cloth or horse without his permission?"

Idol-worshippers: " No. Because he had gifted the first cloth or horse, but not the other."

The Holy Prophet: "Who has more right that his property should not be used without his permission: God or His creatures? "

Idol-worshippers: "God has more right that His property should not be infringed upon." The Holy Prophet: "Then why are you contravening this principle? When and where has God allowed you to worship the idols?"

After some consideration, all of them became Muslim.

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Ali, there's another famous discussion mohammed had. It goes like this:

"I have done what many never thought possible. I have taken the masses and made them believe in whatever I believe. I have taken the masses and made them worship me and my god. All those years in my cave contemplating and plotting have paid off! Now I am immortal, and I have self-proclaimed myself final prophet! Not only this, but now I have armies, over 12 women, and people treating me like the divine prophet i have made them believe I was. I never thought i'd pull it off with just a book! Phew... I thought they would want me to pull jesus like miracles or something!"

As you can clearly see, it's VERY easy to fabricate bull. Your quotes mean nothing! I have heard millions of quotes atrributed to mohammed, many of them are clearly not his style nor his quotes. People just take any wise word/debate/sentance and just say "ohh...umm..yea the rasool said it". LIKE someone wrote down what the rasool said, kept it secret for 1400 years to be revealed in the books we see published now.

Here I give the translation of the discussion of the Holy Prophet with the atheists, a part of which has been mentioned earlier:-

There were nobody to "debate" with the prophet. The prophet would have killed them and anyone associated with them! Do you honestly believe the prophet with his large armies, his dogmatic message, and his enslavement of captives would sit down in an intellectual debate with atheist scholars and talk like this!? loooool

These dialogue never existed, I believe they are fabricated by someone wishing to make his prophet seem like an intellectual.

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Leb, you should have some nerve to say something like that. Mr. Ali was there with Allama Sayyid Saeed Akhtar Rizvi and both of 'em witnessed these conversations with all these folks of different beleives. Also he had a recorder with 'dura' cells, so that he able to get all the debates.

Leb, think before you say something like to to Ali. I think, he deserve your apology.

Edited by infinity
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Hey infinity,

Look at these quotes, tell me what you think ;)

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."

- Blaise Pascal, "Pensees" (1670)

Or this one...

"Blind faith is powerful enough to immunize people against all appeals to pity, to forgiveness, to decent human feelings. It even immunizes them against fear, if they honestly believe that a martyr's death will send them straight to heaven. What a weapon! Religious faith deserves a chapter to itself in the annals of war technology, on an even footing with the longbow, the warhorse, the tank, and the hydrogen bomb.

Blind faith can justify anything. If a man believes in a different god, or even if he uses a different ritual for worshipping the same god, blind faith can decree that he should die - on the cross, at the stake, skewered on a Crusader's sword, shot in a Beirut street, or blown up in a bar in Belfast. Memes for blind faith have their own ruthless ways of propagating themselves. This is true of patriotic and political as well as religious blind faith."

- Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

or this...

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

- Stephen Roberts

or this..

"I do not say that science knows everything, but I most certainly say that religion knows nothing."

- Richards Dawkins


"Faith, indeed, has up to the present not been able to move real mountains.... But it can put mountains where there are none. "

- Friedrich Nietzche

last but not least...

"The priests used to say that faith can move mountains, and nobody believed them. Today the scientists say that they can level mountains, and nobody doubts them. "

- Joseph Campbell


Edited by Lebstyle
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". LIKE someone wrote down what the rasool said, kept it secret for 1400 years to be revealed in the books we see published now.

These dialogue never existed, I believe they are fabricated by someone wishing to make his prophet seem like an intellectual.

Shows the extent of your ignorance. This debate of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is not something that became known recently. If you had bothered reading the first post in the thread, you would have seen it lists Imam Hasan al-Askari's (as) tafseer and Allama Tabarsi's al-Ihtijaj as sources. The former was one of the Imams from the Prophet's progeny who lived in 7th century, the latter was a Shi'ah scholar from the 9th and 10th centuries. So your claim that this is a recent invention is one based on ignorance and prejudice.

The fact is, there is an abundance of such debates and arguments from the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams of Ahl al-Bayt (as) which can be found in hadith collections like Bihar al-Anwar and Usool al-Kafi ( http://www.al-shia.com/html/eng/books/hadi...part3/index.htm ). These traditions are subject to rigorious scrutiny before they can be accepted as genuine.

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  • 4 years later...
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haha :) you're right Shia Engineer, I didn't notice it until you said it

nevertheless, Nothing, thank you very much for bringing this thread up

if you hadn't, i wouldn't found this wonderful debate conducted by the prophet

it's so beautiful, i never knew it exists...

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  • 5 years later...

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