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DaSouljah

Ayatullah khameni - What did he do?

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Dear shabbirh and YA ZAHRA,

Salam o Alekum,

There are hadith that the Ulema of this Ummah are comparable to the Anbia (as) of bani Israel. But for us it is enough even if they are the servants of Ahlul Bait (as). In any case they have a much higher status than us. We should not be making comparisons between the ”infallibility” of Ahlul Bait (as) and the “piousness” of our Ulema. Such type of discussions serve no purpose.

Khuda Hafiz.

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Bismillah wha Salam!

I have followed this discussion now and I think some points must be raised here. First for all of you who do taqleed on Seyyed Seestani, well I also do that. Just as Seyyed Seestani was chosen by the ulema of Najaf/Iraq as the follower of Seyyed Khoei  (ra) the ulema in Iran chose Seyyed Khameini as the Wali al-Amr. Also Seyyed Khomeini  (ra) said there is nobody better then him (seyyed khameini) as his follower. So I see Seyyed Khameini as Wali al Amr and Seyyed Seestani as my Marja, but this doesn't really have to do with what I'm about to say.

All you belivers here must be very careful with what you say on this forum. Remember the only anthill we have left is Iran currently, and if that anthill gets destroyed all we ants will also be destoryed. Iran has excellent democraty, excellent leader and excellent scholars and people. What is more excellent is the law it's based on, the Law of Allah (Swt). Now it has gone through 1 revolution and one war and is still under sactions on a very short time, but alhamdullilah it gets stronger for every day. I can see how some of you speak out against the abuse of some ulema. Some points here, first of all if that actually has happened or not is very unclear. There are so many rumours spread by the enemies of Islam so you cannot be sure which one is true and which one isn't. But what is sure is that if we all start discussing the "defects" of Iran, the enemies of the Islamic REpublic WILL use it against them.

First of all we aren't even in Iran so what ever we agree here does not affect them a bit. Further it is an open forum so who says there arent a few zionists around?

For those of you who want to speak out the truth, well truth is a good thing but you must handle it the right way. If you think some ulema are mistreated in Iran, then you go and speak to the leaders of Iran so they can deal with it or explain why (if it even occurs). But to come on a public forum and discuss it so openly, that is NOT very smart, and most probably some satanists will use it and if they start a campaign for example those who don't have so much knowledge might get pulled in and work against Islamic Republic.

Think very closely before you make a move next time, even though your intentions might be good your result might be disasterous. Now I think this discussion must take an end since it is not profitable in any way and the damage it may cause can be very tremendous. So re-think before you post again, this time very deeply and if your intentions are good then follow my advices and stop this discussion (about some ulemas might me mistreated)

It is just a brotherly advice, if you think otherwise then please say so and enlighten me.

Edited By Ehsan on 1034106940

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In His Name, the Most High

With Salaams to those who accept righteous guidance

I fully take the advise of Br Ehsan, but I feel that "Abdul Hujjah" needs a response.

Abdul Hujjah, your statement saying that 'Urafa are "mushriks" (or polytheists), is a very strong statement, and shows a distinct lack of knowledge regarding Islam and Islamic Disciplines.

Further your arrogance in making the statement:

Irfaanis are mushriks (Polytheists) and you have admitted to it. I don't write ignorantly, I fully understand 3irfan, and I think it is about as ludicrous as the Christians Triune belief.

So you have read everything that exists regarding Irfan?

So you have read all of the Qur'an and understood every verse and give me tafsir (exegesis) of each and every including those ayaat (verses) that have both an obvious meaning and a hidden meaning?

So you have read Nahj ul-Balagha and understood it in its totality?

So you have studied the famous work on Irfan - by Mulla Sadra(AR) - Asfar?  You've read the Irfani works of Shaheed Mutahhari, you've understood the entire message of Kerbala (and I don't mean using Kerbala and Imam Husayn(A)'s revolution as an excuse to flaggelate)?

Wallah, it is a dangerous line that you are traversing.

You want to know what the Quran and Sunnah say on Irfan fine - actually I know that you said only the Quran - but I am assuming that you are not as ignorant and misguided as the Khawarej who are the misguided enemies of Allah who killed Imam Ali(A) while he was praying - and who conspired against him in many campaigns - they said "Hasbuna Kitab Ullah" (Enough for us is the book of Allah) - How can you understand the Written Quran, without the Living Quran?

The Prophet(S) has said clearly - in a MUTAWATIR (well transmitted by many narrators - Sunni and Shia):

"I LEAVE BEHIND TWO WIEGHTY THINGS, THE BOOK OF Allah, AND THE AHL AL-BAYT, THESE TWO THINGS WILL NOT BE SEPARATED UNTIL THEY MEET ME AT THE HAWDH (POND) OF KAWTHAR".

Therefore, without the Ahl al-Bayt and ahadeeth it is not possible to understand the Quran in its completeness - this is a fact.

Here is an explanation of Irfan in the eyes of Quran and Sunnah - I hope it helps you and opens your eyes to the truth - since your talk is rapidly moving towards the rhetoric used by the Khawarej.

Although most people are preoccupied with earning their livelihood and pay little attention to spiritual matters, yet every man has an inherent desire to know the absolute truth. When this dormant power comes to surface and is awakened in some people, they gain a number of spiritual perceptions.

Despite the claim of the sophists and the atheists that every truth is an illusion, everybody believes in the existence of one eternal truth. When man with a pure heart and a pure spirit looks at the permanent factuality of the universe and at the same time observes the instability and transience of its various parts, he realizes that this world and its manifestations are a mirror which reflects the existence of one eternal truth. With this realization his joy knows no bounds and he is so elated that in his eyes everything else becomes insignificant and worthless.

This spectacle forms the basis of that impulse of the gnostics (The Islamic esoterics known as Irfan or gnosis is sometimes associated with Tasawwuf or mysticism whose certain rites and rituals are repugnant to Islam. However Shi'aism considers Islamic acts of worship to be sufficient for gaining proximity to Allah.) which draws the attention of the godly people to a world beyond perception and cultivates the love of Allah in their hearts. The pull which they feel towards this spectacle makes them forget everything and removes many desires from their hearts. This pull leads man to the worship of the Invisible Being who is more manifest than all that is visible or audible. It is this pull which gave birth to many a religion based on Allah's worship. The real gnostic is he who worships Allah not, because he hopes for any reward or is afraid of any punishment, but only because he knows Him and loves Him.(Imam Ja'far Sadiq has said: "There are three categories of the worshippers: 'Those who worship Allah out of fear; their worship is that of the slaves. Those who worship Allah for the sake of a reward; their worship is that of the wage-earners. Those who worship Allah out of love and earnestness; their worship is that of the freeman. This last is the best form of worship." (Biharul Anwar, vol. V, p. 208).)

It is clear from the above that gnosis is not a religion like other religions. It is to be regarded as the central and the most vital part of all religions. Gnosis is a perfect way of worship, based on love, not on fear or hope. It is a way of understanding the inner facts of religion instead of being contented with its outward and perceptible form. Among the followers of all revealed religions, even among those who believe in idol-worship there are individuals who follow the path of gnosis. The gnostics are found among the followers of polytheistic religions as well as among the Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians and Muslims.

Appearance of Gnosis in Islam

Out of the companions of the Holy Prophet Imam Ali is known for the eloquent description of gnostic truths and the stages of spiritual life. His sayings on this subject are a treasure of knowledge. As for the other companions of the Holy Prophet, their sayings which have come down to us do not contain enough material on this subject. The majority of the mystics and gnostics, whether Sunni or Shi'ah consider the chain of their spiritual leaders going to Imam Ali through such companions of his as Salman Farsi, Uways Qarani, Kumayl bin Ziyad, Rashid Hujari, Mitham Tammar, Rabi’ bin Khaytham and Hasan Basri.

Next to this group some other persons like Taus Yamani, Shayban Ra'i, Malik ibn Dinar, Ibrahim bin Adham and Sharif Balkhi appeared in the second century, They were considered holy men by the people. These persons were apparently ascetics. They did not talk openly of gnosis or mysticism, though they conceded that they were introduced to spiritualism by the first group and trained by it.

Towards the end of the second century and the beginning of the third some other individuals like Bayazid Bistami, Ma'ruf Karkhi and Junayd Baghdadi appeared. They openly talked of gnosis. Some of their esoteric sayings based on their spiritual intuition were apparently so obnoxious that they were strongly denounced and condemned by some jurists and theologians. Consequently several of these gnostics were imprisoned and flogged and a few of them were even put to death (Refer to the books on the biographies of the sages, such as the Tazkiratul Awliya’ by Attar and the Taraiqul Haqa'iq by Ma’sum ‘Ali Shah).  Nevertheless this group continued to flourish and maintained its activities despite all opposition. Thus the development of gnosis or mysticism continued till this system reached the zenith of its popularity and expansion in the seventh and the eighth centuries. During the later periods its popularity fluctuated from time to time, but it has been able to maintain its existence in the Islamic world till today.

It appears that most of the mystic leaders whose names are found in biographies and memoirs belonged to the Sunni school of thought and the current Sufi system that comprises some ceremonials and rituals not consistent with the teachings of the Qur'an and Sunnah, is the heritage transmitted by these gnostics and mystics, although their system has subsequently adopted a few Shi'ah rites also.

Some spiritual leaders hold that no mystic or gnostic system or programme was prescribed by Islam. The present gnostic system was invented by the mystics themselves; yet it has the approbation of Allah in the same way as monasticism was sanctioned by Allah after it had been introduced by the Christians into their religion with a view to propagate Christianity.

Anyway the mystics trace the chain of their spiritual leaders to Imam Ali through their early preceptors. (This chain of spiritual descent resembles a genealogical tree). The account of the visions and intuitions of the early gnostics also which has come down to us, mostly contains those elements of spiritual life which we find in the sayings, and teachings of Imam Ali and other Imams of the Holy Prophet's Household (Ahlul Bayt). We can clearly observe these facts provided we study their (the mystics) teachings patiently and calmly and are not carried away by their fascinating sayings which are often obnoxious and blasphemous.

(i) The sufis (Muslim mystics) regard the holiness acquired by following the spiritual path as human perfection. According to the Shi'ah belief, this quality is possessed by the Imams (The twelve successors explicitly expressed by the Holy Prophet of Islam through Divine Will.) and through them can be acquired by their true followers.

(ii) The sufi doctrine that there must always be a Qutb (When a gnostic becomes totally oblivious of himself, in the Sufi parlance, he is said to have passed away in God, for he completely surrenders himself to the will and guidance of Allah.) in the world and the qualities they attribute to him, correspond to the Shi'ah doctrine of Imamat. According to the "People of the Holy Prophet's Household" the Imam (in Sufi terminology the perfect man) is a manifestation of Allah's Names (The gnostics maintain that the world has derived its entity from the Names of Allah and its existence and continuity depend on them. The source of Allah's all Names is His most perfect and loftiest Name. This Name is the station of the perfect man, called the Qutb of the universe also. The world is never without a Qutb.) and is responsible for supervising and guiding all human activities. This being the Shi'ah conception of Wilayat, the great Sufis may be regarded as the proponents of the Shi'ah doctrine, though apparently they followed the Sunni school. What we mean to say is that the Shi'ites being the followers of an infallible Imam, already possess all that is indicated by the mystics. As a matter of fact the Qutb or the perfect man conceived by the mystics does not actually exist anywhere outside the Shi’ite world. Mere presumption is obviously quite a different thing.

It may be mentioned here that some authentic Sunni books state that the outward form of the Islamic law and Islamic teachings does not explain how to perform spiritual journey (In Islam spiritual journey is called Sair wa Suluk, which signifies a journey towards Allah). On this basis the Sufis say that they have individually discovered certain methods and ways which facilitate this journey. They also claim that their methods have gained Divine sanction in the same way as previously monasticism had gained (Allah says: But monkery the Chnstian invented, We ordained it not for them. We ordained only seeking Allah’s pleasure, but they observed it not. (Surah al-Hadid, 57:27)).  As such the Sufi leaders included in their programme of spiritual journey whatever rites, rituals and formalities they deemed fit, and asked their disciples to observe them. Gradually a vast and independent system came into being. This system included such items as total obedience, liturgy, special robes, music and ecstasy and rapture at the time of repeating the liturgical formulas. Some orders of the Sufis went to the extent of separating the tariqah (the Sufi way) from the shari’ah (Islamic precepts). The adherents of these Sufi orders practically joined hands with the Batinites (Those who believe that in Islam everything is allegorical and has a hidden meaning). Anyhow according to the Shi’ah point of view the original source, of Islam, namely the Qur'an and Sunnah indicate what is absolutely contrary to all this. It is not possible that the religious texts would not guide to the truth or would ignore to explain an essential programme. Nor is anybody, whosoever, he may be, allowed to ignore his duty in regard to what is obligatory or is prohibited according to the injunctions of Islam.

What do the Qur'an and Sunnah say about Gnosis?

At a number of places in the Holy Qur'an Allah has directed people to ponder over the contents of the Holy Book and not to pass by them cursorily. In a large number of verses, the universe and the entire creation have been described as Allah's signs. They have been called so because they indicate a great truth. When a man sees red light as a sign of danger, his attention is concentrated on the danger and he ceases to pay attention to the light itself. If he still thinks of the shape, colour and nature of light, then these things will absorb his attention and he will not he able to attend to the impending danger. Similarly the universe and its manifestations are the signs of their Creator, an evidence of His existence and His power. They have no independent existence. We may look at them from any aspect, they indicate nothing but Allah. He who looks at the world and the people of the world from this angle under the guidance of the Qur'an, he will perceive Allah alone. He will not be fascinated by the borrowed charms of this world, but will see an infinite Beauty, a Beloved manifesting Himself from behind the curtain of this world. No doubt, as we have explained by citing the example of red light, what the signs indicate is not this world, but the person of its Creator. We may say that the relationship between Allah and this world is not that of 1 + 1 or 1 x 1, but is that of 1 + 0. In other words, this world in relation to Allah is a nonentity and does not add anything to His Essence.

As soon as man realizes this fact, his notion of having an independent existence is smashed and he suddenly feels imbibed with love of Allah. Obviously this realization does not come through eyes, ears or any other sensory organs or mental faculties, for all organs themselves are mere signs and cannot play any significant role in providing the guidance we are talking about (Imam Ali has said: "Allah is not that who may be comprehended by knowledge. Allah is He Who guides the argument to Himself." (Biharul Anwar, vol. II p. 186)).

When a man having access to Divine manifestation and desiring to remember Allah alone, hears the following passage of the Qur'an, he comes to know that the only path of perfect guidance is that of knowing himself:

O you who believe, you have charge of your own souls. He who errs cannot injure you if you are rightly guided. (al-Ma'idah, 5:105)

He understands that his true guide is Allah alone who enjoins upon him to know himself and to seek the path of self-knowing, leaving all other paths. He must see Allah through the window of his own soul and thus achieve his real objective. That is why the Holy Prophet has said: He who has known himself, has known Allah (A well-known tradition repeatedly quoted in the books of both the Sunni and Shi'ah gnostics)

He has also said: "Those of you who know Allah better, better they know themselves." (Another tradition cited in the books of the Sunni and Shi'ah gnostics.)

As for the embarking on spiritual journey there are many verses of the Qur'an which urge the people to remember Allah. For example at one place the Qur'an says: Remember Me, I will remember you. (al-Baqarah, 2:152)

Man has been ordered to do good deeds also, which have been explained in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Mentioning the good deeds Allah says: Surely in the Messenger of Allah you have a good example. (al-Ahzab, 33:21)

How can it be imagined that Islam would declare that there was a path leading towards Allah without appraising the people what that path is?

And how can it be that Allah would mention a path without explaining how it is to be traversed?

Allah says in the Holy Qur'an: Messenger, We have revealed this Book to you. It contains the details of everything. (Surah an-Nahl, 16:89)

I hope this explains the concept to you.

I know it is a very cursory glance at such a deep and complex subject, and it seems you have "studied" irfan greatly and must have without doubt done much research on it in its original Arabic language form, for you to have the nerve to declare Shia Islam - which you claim to follow and its mystical aspects, irfan as polytheistic.

Before you make blanket statements, prove to me your level of belief is high that that of the people you insult - do you know yourself, that you may know your Lord?

Proove it - with Quran and Hadeeth - and I require good hadeeth and good ayaat to prove that IRFAN is haram and tanamout to Polytheism - "Fa'tu burhanukum in kuntum Sadiqeen!".

That fact that you've never heard that Prophet Muhammad(S) and Imam Ali(A) are the most famous and earliest Urafa of Islam shows your ignorance.

Your knowledge and understanding seem sadly lacking - yet your ego seems overly inflated.  This is a tragic state of affairs - because it is apparent to anyone that you have succumbed to your base animalist self (Nafs al-Ammaratu Bis-Su) (which is mentioned in Quran - but go look for it).

Something about your second post made me laugh though.  You asked one of the Brothers, Br Ehsan I believe, if he had heard of Dua Abu Hamza ath-Thumali, and whether he had recited it - this is strange comming from someone who claims that all Irfan is shirk - LOL - very funny and indicative of your absolute ignorance and arrogance in regard to this subject.

Let me try and elaborate.

Abu Hamza ath-Thumali(RA) was a close companion of Imam Ali ibn al-Husyan as-SajjadA) He has related that during the month of Ramadhan Imam Sajjad(A) used to spend a greater part of the night in prayers and when it used to be the time of Seher he recited the following dua'.

Do you accept Dua'?  Do you accept Dua al-Iftitah?  Dua Kumayl, Dua an-Nur, Dua an-Nudbah, etc?

Then how can you reject Gnosticism?  How can you reject the Islamic discipline of loving Allah and moving towards better understanding of the ultimate TAWHEED.

PROOVE TO ME THAT IRFAN LEADS TO SHIRK - PROOVE IT - DON'T JUST QUOTE ME ANTI SHIA/SUFI JUNK - PROOVE IT LOGICALLY - YOU CLAIM TO "KNOW ALL ABOUT IRFAN" - SO PROVE TO ME IT LEADS TO SHIRK AS SO CLAIM SO VIGOUROUSLY.

Finally, your insultive claim against the Leader of the Muslim Ummah, and comparing him to the usurping "Khalif" is reprehensible - and something you should be careful of.

[b:post_uid0]Admins, you gave me a warning when I used Ya Zahra real name, do you not think that this deserves a warning - comparing Imam Khamenei(HA) to Abu Bakr - inactivity on this area will prove where you guys stand.[/b:post_uid0]

Abdul Hujjah, I would ordinarily try to correct you and break your arguments - all of them - but your level of understanding on Islam is so minimal and so dogmatic and literal that I feel there is little point, so you answer the question(s) that I have posed you here and then we can continue - but I warn you - and this is no idle warning - cease and desist from insulting the Leader - or you will be made to repent, in this world and the next - and this is no idle threat.

Abdul Hujjah, you do not have to agree with him, that is fine - but if you insult him - you will be sorry - once again, this is not an idle threat - so I suggest caution.

Remember, Allah is a witness on everything you do and every thing you say/type - and everything you say will be used against you.

Becareful lest you become fuel for the fire who's fuel is men and stones.

In the end, ALL praise is to Allah the Lord of the Worlds.

Finally, the verse of Quran that you have used to "justify" your misguided theory is actually proof that you take from the book some and reject others - because it says - and I will explain:

[3:7] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Lets try and explain it shall we:

When Allah says:

But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah

You can see that those who take ONLY the allegorical - and reject the obvious are those who are misguided, since it is impossible to take ONLY the allegorical as it tells us that the hidden meanings are with Allah alone.

It then goes on to say:

And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

This section of the verse says that those who have a solid grounding in Knowledge (ar-Rasikhuna Fil 'Ilm) will say, that "The whole of it is from Allah" - implying the hidden and obvious of the entire book is from Allah, and that no-one will understands its core obvious and allegorical message except those understand (the word for understand that is used is: Ulul al-Bab. (People of the Door litteral meaning)

Think about it - and use the tradition of the Prophet(S) where he says "Ana Madinat ul-Ilm wa Alyyun Babuha" (I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its Door).

Try and think a little deeply - and you will see that this actually prooves that the the only people who will understand the full meaning of the Quran and who will recognise (ma'rifah) their Lord, are those who have knowledge and follow the way of the "Door".

Think a little deeply - I know it hurts my dear and is painful for you wittle head - but try - you want to make blanket accusations with no knowledge - now listen to and accept the refutation if you can - otherwise once again let me warn you of the fire who's fuel is men and stones.

With Salaams to those who accept righteous guidance

Shabbir

Edited By Ya Aba 3abdillah on 1034167259

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In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

Now then "AbdulHujjah".

I see that you have chosen to ignore the clear proofs presented before you, and have picked only on my method of greeting, which you have also mis-understood.

Granted, "Salaams to those who follow righteous guidance" was used by Imam Ali(A) when he addressed Mua'wiyyah in various letters, but let us examine the statement.  It is now you who are claiming to understand the hidden meaning behind my words - LOL - how hilarious is this.

Let us look at the statement.  Peace be with those people who accept righteous guidance, what is wrong with it?  If you accept righteous guidance then peace be with you - it is only if you do not accept the righteous guidance that I am not saying peace to you.

Have I qualified who exactly I am talking to?  Is this not a public message forum?  Is it not possible that there are believers and non-believers who visit this site?  Hence my saluation.

Eitherway, you have once again chosen to be dogmatic and immature in your handling of my posts.

My deductions on your understanding of the true Islam of Muhammad(S) are based on your own statements, which I have gone to great lengths to explain how I understood what you said.

If I am wrong or mistaken, please have the courage and decency to reply - if I am correct, and have exposed the truth that lies within your heart - and we all know the famous saying of Imam Ali(A) (This statement of Imam Ali(A) is not conditional on accepting him as an Aref or not so you could argue it just makes sense - so here's the statement):

[b:post_uid0]Often your utterances and expressions of your face leak out the secrets of your hidden thoughts.[/b:post_uid0]

If you have nothing to hide and are righteous in what you are saying - can you prove it brother?

Bring forth your proof if you are truthfull (Holy Quran).

If you have no proof, and cannot refute my arguments, then have the courage to accept a gracefull defeat, for verily it is rude and arrogant to persist down a path you know to be wrong and will lead ultimately to you own humilation.

Becareful of what you do next.

As for your statement regarding the Fire:

Lets look at what you said:

Why should I fear hell when it's not a reality only God is.

Does this mean you accept that only Allah is valid, and is the ultimate reality - and that we are irrelevant, almost to the point of non-existant?

Masha Allah.

Although you now have to retract your statement:

I'm nothing compared to Allah (but I'm a reality and I exist), so I seek his assistance and not the assistance of Sufis like mulla sadra.

Since you have accepted that you do not exist. :D

As for the concept that you quote here where you say allege that I seek the assistance of Mulla Sadra and not that of Allah - this is proof of your ignorance and arrogance yet again.

Mulla Sadra was an Aref, who had completely annialated himself in Allah, and I see the assistance of Allah only, I used the works of Mulla Sadra, Ayatullah Shaheed Mutahhari, Imam al-Khumayni(A), Imam Khamenei(HA), and others in moving to the state of complete annialation in Allah, but I do not - nay I CANNOT - seek their help.

Once again, you words belie your true belief, which is no different to that of the Khawarej, where they believed that the "Book of Allah is enough" - strangely enough, this is the same thing that the "2nd Khalif" - Umar had said when the Prophet(S) asked for a pen and paper on his deathbed in order that Ummah may be not led astry - and Umar refused, and used these words - the book of Allah is enough.

The Prophet(S) was severely vexed by this and ordered everyone except Ali(A) out of the room - this is found in older versions of Bukhari and Muslim (one's that haven't been edited by the heretics currently occupying our beloved Hijaz).

Becareful, I quote you Imam Ali(A)'s saying from Nahjul Balagha again:

[b:post_uid0]Often your utterances and expressions of your face leak out the secrets of your hidden thoughts.[/b:post_uid0]

I am now going to end my post, and wait (though not with bated breath I hasten to add) - for you education and eloquant reply - which I am sure you will take some time in composing.

Once I again I remind you - be careful what you say, as the truth of your feelings has a habit of being made manifest.

Read this post and my previous post, and respond to each and every point that you take issue with - if you do not - then inform everyone.  

Do not worry about your pride, Islamically we know that honour and dignity are only given by Allah, and a person who admits that he is wrong when presented with evidence is not humiliated - this is a man made concept, Allah honours someone who accepts the truth.

In the same vien, if you provide me evidence and logical arguments that I am unable to refute - again logically and evidentially - I will accept that I am wrong and you are right.

I am known to admit when I am wrong, as this is the only way that we can progress towards perfection and how we can please and glorify Allah.

With Salaams and Dua's (to those who are receptive to righteous guidance):

Shabbir

Edited By shabbirh on 1034163646

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In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

I ask you again, to refute my points intellectually and with evidence if you can, I am tired of retyping and commenting on your inanity - you have said everything that I have alleged you have - if you read your posts - you will know this.

Like Imam Ali(A) said in Nahjul Balagha:

[b:post_uid0]Often your utterances and expressions of your face leak out the secrets of your hidden thoughts.[/b:post_uid0]

Be man enough to answer or respond to the points that I have made - either that or accept you are mistaken.

As for the sarcasm, you may have noted that I too have been sarcastic - if you haven't then - well I can't help you.

Again, you've picked only one tiny and irrelevant segment of what I had said - you have yet to respond to my longer post explaining IRFAN IN THE QURAN AND SUNNAH (not that I am slowly being convinced that you may believe and accept the Sunnah of the Prophet(S) and the Ahl al-Bayt(A) - though I still have a lot of doubts about your belief - but I give you the benefit of the doubt - so ANSWER MY POST!!)

If I have to ask again, then well - you will have proved your inability to answer them - I can take statements of yours and tear you apart with them - for example - and here is a taster:

You said:

I said I understand the irfan not the Holy Quran (understanding it is specifically reserved for the Ahlul-Bait not mulla sadra). I would rather be a nasibi khawareji than a irfaani, because a nasibi is better than a polytheist.

So you understand Irfan - WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING QURAN?????? Is this possible?  Granted we cannot have a 100% understanding of it - but we can try our best - tell me would you say that Allamah Sayyed Muhammad Husayn Tabatabai(A) - who WAS AN AREF - the famous compiler of the brilliant "al-Mizan Fi Tafsir il-Quran" (the al-Mizan Exegisis on the Quran)?  He understood a lot of the Quran much more than most people (except off course the Ahl al-Bayt(A)), and he was a very high Aref - are you saying that he was a polytheist?

Since by your defintition you are stating that all urafa were mushriks.  Once again, I warn you - becareful.

Imam Ali(A)'s words have exposed you totally:

[b:post_uid0]Often your utterances and expressions of your face leak out the secrets of your hidden thoughts.[/b:post_uid0]

Much has been said by Imam Ali(A) against the Khawarej - FIND ME ONE STATEMENT BY IMAM ALI(A) AGAINST THE URAFA!! JUST ONE!

Once again I ask:

"BRING FORTH YOUR PROOF IF YOU ARE TRUTHFUL" (Holy Quran)

With Salaams and Dua' to those who follow the way of Allah

Shabbir

Edited By shabbirh on 1034167487

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salam

Brother AbdulHujjah

You would be better adviced to stop!

Not only are you insulting your muslim brothers and sisters, you are calling the members of the pure house hold (as)....well..I cannot repeat what you are calling them.

Please brother stop !

salams and duas

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Bismillah wha Salam!

Abulhujjaj, you have been answered very very eloquently by Sheikh Shabbir twice, but since you dont seem to understand him, let me put it in a way so even a 5 year old will understand  ;) .

You have your dad right...now you (as a son) your dad tells you to do the following thing otherwise I hit/punnish you, and if you do what he tells you that is good. But on the other hand if he tells you do this and Ill give you a litle candy/reward, still if you obey him that is good, but if he tells you to do something and you obey him because he is your father and you love him, and he is deserved to be obeyed isn't that best of all?!?

If you agree then change that dad into Allah (swt) and the son into a creature (dont misunderstand me as if Allah (swt) was a dad or had a son, istighrfurillah) and you have the concept of Irfan, and what each 'aref is striving for. Further Imam Ali (as) says that even though Allah (Swt) would not threat with hell or the reward you should still worship Him because of His kindness.

Imam Ali (as) also say: "i dont worhsip Him becuuse of His reward or fear of His punishment but because of He is deserved to pray to"

And further, the Word of Allah (Swt) : "I have not created mankind and djinns but to worship Me" / Koran.

So because you Worship Him because He DESERVES to be worship you are rendered into a mushrik?!

How twisted aren't your statements?

Please re-think, I have made it very simply for you, even my bird understands it since he worships Him all the time because that is what he is created for, now you have an intellect which my bird does not have, please use it for what it's meant to be (used for).

Further. haha when I was last in Iran. Are you going to argue with me on that also?!

Let me put it like this on my mothers side the only one which is not in Iran is my mother. I was born there also. Many of the relatives of my dad also live in Iran.

HAve you heard the history of Fadak ?

Well if you haven't please go and read it, but I assume you have (since you did not understand my simile). The reason why Abu Bakr did not give Fadak back to Fatimah Zahra (as) was because it is very very big, and if she and her husband (Imam Ali (as) ) would go there all the shia would also do that, the LAnd of Fadak would be very powerful and most probably it would be a "double camp" and the shias would grow powerful. Now we have another Fadak today, Islamic Republic of Iran. There we can grow strong and spread the true ISlam of Muhammad (pbuh). If we did not have Iran, well look at how saudi Arabi looks today. Shias would be very weak, and that we don't want do we?

And now dont come and tell me what is practised in IRan is not sharia?! It is the sharia from Allah (swt), and most certainly He is NOT unjust. Watch what you are saying. The Living Martyr, Seyyed Khameini (ha) was chosen by the ulema of Iran. The people can chose their president etc, but a wali al amr isn't something temporary. It must be someone just, knowledgeable, truthfull, pious, god fearing who knows what he does. Every alem is not fit to be Wali al-Amr. It must be one, the one. Imam Mahdi (as) said that after me the Ulema have the highest authority in religion. And since people need somebody who can take care of things until he comes back, it must be one chosen by the highest authorities, the ulema currently. And so they did, and they chose Imam al-Qaed Shahed al-Hayy Khameini (Ha) and most certainly they did an excellent choise, as we can see today how Iran is developing. And he most certainly speaks out against injustice. When Ayatollah Taheri spoke out againt the corruption of Iran, what did Seyyed Khameini do? If you don't know I suggest you read his reply, its availible at Islamicdigest.net

It shows that he is a man of justice and peace.

Please watch your tongue, you are now taking it to unknown places. It clearly shows the real nature of you, and I wonder why I should waste my time answering.

re-think.......deeply :nono:

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In His Name, the Most High

Salaams to those who love Allah:

[b:post_uid0]Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking earth with rocks. [/b:post_uid0]

My dear brother - Abdul Hujjah, once again you have failed to answer any of my points and have instead decided to make false claims against me by saying that I am pro-Iranian.  This is hilarious, and if it wasn't so tragically wrong, it would be most funny.

Right then, let me try and answer your statements:

Firstly, you said:

Shaikh Muhammad al Yazdi   has written in his book al 3urwatool wuthqa "that sufis are najis". Everyone man who becomes a marja3 comments on this book. Khomeini is the only man who refutes Allamah Yazdi on this point. Why you say? Because Irfaan is the political correct term for Sufism. Irfaani is different to Ma3rifa do not make the grave error and associate the two.

Your statement about Imam al-Khumayni(A) being the only person to refute the Shaykh's statement that "sufis are najis" adds only more clarity to what I am saying.

Urwathul Wuthqa, is a thesis that most, if not all of the Ulema write when the proceed to the higher reaches of Bahth al-Kharej in the Hawza system.  The fact that no-one else has written a critique on it doesn't prove that fact that it is write - all the ulema have a right to their opinions.

For example, I am sure you remember, that until recently, a lot of the ulema considered the Ahl al-Kitab as Najis, and only a few of them considered them as Tahir.  Now the majority of them consider the Ahl al-Kitab as tahir, with only a few (if any) saying they are najis - most who are unsure - give a fatwa on the basis of ihtiyaat.

This statement of your's is null and void, it doesn't matter is someone has made a statement such as this, although I am sure that Shaykh Yazdi (which Shaykh Yazdi are you talking about - there are many since the name is a common name in Iran) qualified what he meany by "the sufis who were najis", but you have just mentioned the line and failed to qualify the Shaykh's statement, nor have you mentioned what arguments Imam al-Khumayni(A) used to refute the statements of Shaykh Yazdi regarding the taharah of the Sufi people.

Fair enough.  But, I would ask you - if you are righteous then you must provide the entire paragraph at least so that the whole statement can be qualified and understood, as well as the refutation by Imam al-Khumayni(A).  Also - if anyone has confirmed what the Shaykh has said, then this must also be provided in order for a complete analysis to be performed and the argument to be validated.  This is basic research skills and analytical techniques.

You have also stated that Ma'rifah and Irfan are two separate words and that Irfan is the "politically correct"

way of saying sufiism.

Did you actually read any of the messages that I posted?

I made abundantly clear, the distinction between sufis and Urfa', perfectly clear - I will requote it here - hazarding that you will claim that I am being repetative again - but if I have clarified something, and you have failed to read it - either you need some new eyeglasses, or you are just being selective in what you read - which is similar to the crime for which Allah chastised Bani Israel - when he said to them:

"Oh Children of Israel, why do you accept parts of the book and reject other parts of it?"

Here is my quote explaining the difference between the 'Urfa and the Sufis:

Here is an explanation of Irfan in the eyes of Quran and Sunnah - I hope it helps you and opens your eyes to the truth - since your talk is rapidly moving towards the rhetoric used by the Khawarej.

Although most people are preoccupied with earning their livelihood and pay little attention to spiritual matters, yet every man has an inherent desire to know the absolute truth. When this dormant power comes to surface and is awakened in some people, they gain a number of spiritual perceptions.

Despite the claim of the sophists and the atheists that every truth is an illusion, everybody believes in the existence of one eternal truth. When man with a pure heart and a pure spirit looks at the permanent factuality of the universe and at the same time observes the instability and transience of its various parts, he realizes that this world and its manifestations are a mirror which reflects the existence of one eternal truth. With this realization his joy knows no bounds and he is so elated that in his eyes everything else becomes insignificant and worthless.

This spectacle forms the basis of that impulse of the gnostics (The Islamic esoterics known as Irfan or gnosis is sometimes associated with Tasawwuf or mysticism whose certain rites and rituals are repugnant to Islam. However Shi'aism considers Islamic acts of worship to be sufficient for gaining proximity to Allah.) which draws the attention of the godly people to a world beyond perception and cultivates the love of Allah in their hearts. The pull which they feel towards this spectacle makes them forget everything and removes many desires from their hearts. This pull leads man to the worship of the Invisible Being who is more manifest than all that is visible or audible. It is this pull which gave birth to many a religion based on Allah's worship. The real gnostic is he who worships Allah not, because he hopes for any reward or is afraid of any punishment, but only because he knows Him and loves Him.(Imam Ja'far Sadiq has said: "There are three categories of the worshippers: 'Those who worship Allah out of fear; their worship is that of the slaves. Those who worship Allah for the sake of a reward; their worship is that of the wage-earners. Those who worship Allah out of love and earnestness; their worship is that of the freeman. This last is the best form of worship." (Biharul Anwar, vol. V, p. 208).)

It is clear from the above that gnosis is not a religion like other religions. It is to be regarded as the central and the most vital part of all religions. Gnosis is a perfect way of worship, based on love, not on fear or hope. It is a way of understanding the inner facts of religion instead of being contented with its outward and perceptible form. Among the followers of all revealed religions, even among those who believe in idol-worship there are individuals who follow the path of gnosis. The gnostics are found among the followers of polytheistic religions as well as among the Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians and Muslims.

Appearance of Gnosis in Islam

Out of the companions of the Holy Prophet Imam Ali is known for the eloquent description of gnostic truths and the stages of spiritual life. His sayings on this subject are a treasure of knowledge. As for the other companions of the Holy Prophet, their sayings which have come down to us do not contain enough material on this subject. The majority of the mystics and gnostics, whether Sunni or Shi'ah consider the chain of their spiritual leaders going to Imam Ali through such companions of his as Salman Farsi, Uways Qarani, Kumayl bin Ziyad, Rashid Hujari, Mitham Tammar, Rabi’ bin Khaytham and Hasan Basri.

Next to this group some other persons like Taus Yamani, Shayban Ra'i, Malik ibn Dinar, Ibrahim bin Adham and Sharif Balkhi appeared in the second century, They were considered holy men by the people. These persons were apparently ascetics. They did not talk openly of gnosis or mysticism, though they conceded that they were introduced to spiritualism by the first group and trained by it.

Towards the end of the second century and the beginning of the third some other individuals like Bayazid Bistami, Ma'ruf Karkhi and Junayd Baghdadi appeared. They openly talked of gnosis. Some of their esoteric sayings based on their spiritual intuition were apparently so obnoxious that they were strongly denounced and condemned by some jurists and theologians. Consequently several of these gnostics were imprisoned and flogged and a few of them were even put to death (Refer to the books on the biographies of the sages, such as the Tazkiratul Awliya’ by Attar and the Taraiqul Haqa'iq by Ma’sum ‘Ali Shah).  Nevertheless this group continued to flourish and maintained its activities despite all opposition. Thus the development of gnosis or mysticism continued till this system reached the zenith of its popularity and expansion in the seventh and the eighth centuries. During the later periods its popularity fluctuated from time to time, but it has been able to maintain its existence in the Islamic world till today.

It appears that most of the mystic leaders whose names are found in biographies and memoirs belonged to the Sunni school of thought and the current Sufi system that comprises some ceremonials and rituals not consistent with the teachings of the Qur'an and Sunnah, is the heritage transmitted by these gnostics and mystics, although their system has subsequently adopted a few Shi'ah rites also.

Some spiritual leaders hold that no mystic or gnostic system or programme was prescribed by Islam. The present gnostic system was invented by the mystics themselves; yet it has the approbation of Allah in the same way as monasticism was sanctioned by Allah after it had been introduced by the Christians into their religion with a view to propagate Christianity.

Anyway the mystics trace the chain of their spiritual leaders to Imam Ali through their early preceptors. (This chain of spiritual descent resembles a genealogical tree). The account of the visions and intuitions of the early gnostics also which has come down to us, mostly contains those elements of spiritual life which we find in the sayings, and teachings of Imam Ali and other Imams of the Holy Prophet's Household (Ahlul Bayt). We can clearly observe these facts provided we study their (the mystics) teachings patiently and calmly and are not carried away by their fascinating sayings which are often obnoxious and blasphemous.

(i) The sufis (Muslim mystics) regard the holiness acquired by following the spiritual path as human perfection. According to the Shi'ah belief, this quality is possessed by the Imams (The twelve successors explicitly expressed by the Holy Prophet of Islam through Divine Will.) and through them can be acquired by their true followers.

(ii) The sufi doctrine that there must always be a Qutb (When a gnostic becomes totally oblivious of himself, in the Sufi parlance, he is said to have passed away in God, for he completely surrenders himself to the will and guidance of Allah.) in the world and the qualities they attribute to him, correspond to the Shi'ah doctrine of Imamat. According to the "People of the Holy Prophet's Household" the Imam (in Sufi terminology the perfect man) is a manifestation of Allah's Names (The gnostics maintain that the world has derived its entity from the Names of Allah and its existence and continuity depend on them. The source of Allah's all Names is His most perfect and loftiest Name. This Name is the station of the perfect man, called the Qutb of the universe also. The world is never without a Qutb.) and is responsible for supervising and guiding all human activities. This being the Shi'ah conception of Wilayat, the great Sufis may be regarded as the proponents of the Shi'ah doctrine, though apparently they followed the Sunni school. What we mean to say is that the Shi'ites being the followers of an infallible Imam, already possess all that is indicated by the mystics. As a matter of fact the Qutb or the perfect man conceived by the mystics does not actually exist anywhere outside the Shi’ite world. Mere presumption is obviously quite a different thing.

It may be mentioned here that some authentic Sunni books state that the outward form of the Islamic law and Islamic teachings does not explain how to perform spiritual journey (In Islam spiritual journey is called Sair wa Suluk, which signifies a journey towards Allah). On this basis the Sufis say that they have individually discovered certain methods and ways which facilitate this journey. They also claim that their methods have gained Divine sanction in the same way as previously monasticism had gained (Allah says: But monkery the Chnstian invented, We ordained it not for them. We ordained only seeking Allah’s pleasure, but they observed it not. (Surah al-Hadid, 57:27)).  As such the Sufi leaders included in their programme of spiritual journey whatever rites, rituals and formalities they deemed fit, and asked their disciples to observe them. Gradually a vast and independent system came into being. This system included such items as total obedience, liturgy, special robes, music and ecstasy and rapture at the time of repeating the liturgical formulas. Some orders of the Sufis went to the extent of separating the tariqah (the Sufi way) from the shari’ah (Islamic precepts). The adherents of these Sufi orders practically joined hands with the Batinites (Those who believe that in Islam everything is allegorical and has a hidden meaning). Anyhow according to the Shi’ah point of view the original source, of Islam, namely the Qur'an and Sunnah indicate what is absolutely contrary to all this. It is not possible that the religious texts would not guide to the truth or would ignore to explain an essential programme. Nor is anybody, whosoever, he may be, allowed to ignore his duty in regard to what is obligatory or is prohibited according to the injunctions of Islam.

What do the Qur'an and Sunnah say about Gnosis?

At a number of places in the Holy Qur'an Allah has directed people to ponder over the contents of the Holy Book and not to pass by them cursorily. In a large number of verses, the universe and the entire creation have been described as Allah's signs. They have been called so because they indicate a great truth. When a man sees red light as a sign of danger, his attention is concentrated on the danger and he ceases to pay attention to the light itself. If he still thinks of the shape, colour and nature of light, then these things will absorb his attention and he will not he able to attend to the impending danger. Similarly the universe and its manifestations are the signs of their Creator, an evidence of His existence and His power. They have no independent existence. We may look at them from any aspect, they indicate nothing but Allah. He who looks at the world and the people of the world from this angle under the guidance of the Qur'an, he will perceive Allah alone. He will not be fascinated by the borrowed charms of this world, but will see an infinite Beauty, a Beloved manifesting Himself from behind the curtain of this world. No doubt, as we have explained by citing the example of red light, what the signs indicate is not this world, but the person of its Creator. We may say that the relationship between Allah and this world is not that of 1 + 1 or 1 x 1, but is that of 1 + 0. In other words, this world in relation to Allah is a nonentity and does not add anything to His Essence.

As soon as man realizes this fact, his notion of having an independent existence is smashed and he suddenly feels imbibed with love of Allah. Obviously this realization does not come through eyes, ears or any other sensory organs or mental faculties, for all organs themselves are mere signs and cannot play any significant role in providing the guidance we are talking about (Imam Ali has said: "Allah is not that who may be comprehended by knowledge. Allah is He Who guides the argument to Himself." (Biharul Anwar, vol. II p. 186)).

When a man having access to Divine manifestation and desiring to remember Allah alone, hears the following passage of the Qur'an, he comes to know that the only path of perfect guidance is that of knowing himself:

O you who believe, you have charge of your own souls. He who errs cannot injure you if you are rightly guided. (al-Ma'idah, 5:105)

He understands that his true guide is Allah alone who enjoins upon him to know himself and to seek the path of self-knowing, leaving all other paths. He must see Allah through the window of his own soul and thus achieve his real objective. That is why the Holy Prophet has said: He who has known himself, has known Allah (A well-known tradition repeatedly quoted in the books of both the Sunni and Shi'ah gnostics)

He has also said: "Those of you who know Allah better, better they know themselves." (Another tradition cited in the books of the Sunni and Shi'ah gnostics.)

As for the embarking on spiritual journey there are many verses of the Qur'an which urge the people to remember Allah. For example at one place the Qur'an says: Remember Me, I will remember you. (al-Baqarah, 2:152)

Man has been ordered to do good deeds also, which have been explained in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Mentioning the good deeds Allah says: Surely in the Messenger of Allah you have a good example. (al-Ahzab, 33:21)

How can it be imagined that Islam would declare that there was a path leading towards Allah without appraising the people what that path is?

And how can it be that Allah would mention a path without explaining how it is to be traversed?

Allah says in the Holy Qur'an: Messenger, We have revealed this Book to you. It contains the details of everything. (Surah an-Nahl, 16:89)

Also linguistically, the word irfan and ma'rifah come from the same root verb - arafa, ya'rifu (to recognise).

Ma'rifah is the maf'oul form of the word, and Aref is the fa'il, Urfa is the plural fa'il.  Many other connotations are available within Arabic grammer, and it is well known that this is very simple and basic arabic grammer.

Now convince me that Irfan is merely the "politically correct" term for Sufi - when it is a fact that there is a difference - the art that the sufis follow is Tasawwuf - can you tell me the root verb for this?  The fail and mafoul forms as well as the noun form?

If at any stage there is a link up between the two root verbs - then you maybe onto something - otherwise I think you may have a problem with your Sarf and Nahw, and should really go back and read al-Muqaddamaat again - from what I remember, Suyuti has a very good book on Arabic Grammer, you would be well advised to study it.

Now let us move onto your second question (please excuse me for repeating your questions as quotes - I must do this to clarify the point I am making and to save you having to scroll down to your post every time, it also helps in ensuring that no mistakes are made in understanding).

Quote  
Like Imam Ali(A) said in Nahjul Balagha:

Often your utterances and expressions of your face leak out the secrets of your hidden thoughts.

How do you associate this with Irfaan? What the hell do u want me to refute? Your posts are mere repititions and your band of sidekicks cheer for you regardless of what you write because you are pro Irani and I get jeered because I'm not.

Firstly, I am glad to hear that you are NOT pro Irani - this is a good thing, since nationality is an irrelevant concept, and holds no place with Islam and Allah - nor does it have any bearing on anyone's belief.  As we are fully aware - Allah has stated clearly in the Holy Quran:

"I have created you from one man and one woman, and made you into tribes and races that you may know each other, verily the most honourable amongst you in the sight (metaphorical sight) of Allah is that person who is most pious (atqaakum)".

This is a good belief to have and required if you want to follow the true Islam of Muhammad(S).

As for the mention of the saying of Imam Ali(A), the reason for it was to serve as a reminder for you to be careful - I think in conteporary times, we call what Imam Ali(A) was describing 1400 years ago - as a "Freudian Slip" - that is all.

As for the "Shabbir being pro-Irani" statement, I am sure if you look around the board, you will see that I AM AGAINST ALL FORMS OF NATIONALISM, and have said things about Iranians, Iraqi's and Pakistanis and Indians on occasion, since the only important concept, as mentioned before in the Quran is that the person is a Believers FIRST and anything else after - I believe brother Ehsan elaborated on this concept for you most elequantly.

Now we move on to the fact that you claim my posts are mere repetitions, well granted I have some repetative content in my posts - but my phrasology generally becomes simple - well I try to make it simple since it is obvious that you cannot understand me - if this is due to a linguistic difficiency on my part, may Allah increase my linguistic abilities - or as the prayer of Musa(A) as taught to us in the Holy Quran goes:

[b:post_uid0]Oh Allah expand my chest, and assist me in my work, and remove the impediement from my speach that they may understand my words.[/b:post_uid0]

You calling the brothers and sisters on the board "my sidekicks" - is insulting to them - I am sure that each and everyone of them has more knowledge that I have, the fact that they choose to agree with me - is their choice, and it has nothing to do with me - in fact the posts that I make are not designed to solicite agreement or disagreement, they are answers to concepts and questions that have been raised, if someone happens to agree with my opinion on something then does that make them my "sidekick"?  

I once again caution you using the words of Imam Ali(A) that I so often repeat to you - but I beseach you in the name of the Lord of Worlds, to read the words and reflect upon them, not superficially, but deeply and with introspection:

[b:post_uid0]Often your utterances and expressions of your face leak out the secrets of your hidden thoughts.[/b:post_uid0]

Thirdly, you stated:

As for Tabatabai      who ever said he was the grand mufasir, what ever happened to Tabrizi   (Majma3 al-Bayaan) Shirazi   (Al-Amthaal). Take off your blinkers and start reading other books besides the three Khomeini, Mutaheri and Tabatabaei.

These guys  would never be known had it not been for the revolution of Iran. Then again thats how people like Lenin became famous. Before that who was Khomeini, Mutaheri and Tabatabaei ? no body knew them.

I am saddened by this remark of yours and I am happy as well.  You have insulted some of the greatest Ulema, but have also advised me to read - this my dear brother is good advice and I think you for it - and I will read other books, I have read many - but not nearly enough - for we know that the Prophet of Islam(S) has told us:

[b:post_uid0]Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave[/b:post_uid0] and also [b:post_uid0]Seek knowledge even it be in China[/b:post_uid0]

So definately - I will take that good advice of yours.

As for ywhat you have said about Allamah Tabatabai, and that you do not belief that he was a grand mufassir, I am afraid that your sources are either flawed or that the blackness of riya' and nifaq (I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU ARE RIYA'I OR A MUNAFEQ - I AM MERELY SUGGESTING A HYPOTHOSES OF YOUR REASON FOR SAYING SUCH THINGS ABOUT ALLAMAH SAYYED MUHAMMAD HUSAYN TABATABAI - PLEASE DO NOT MISUNDERSTAND ME).

Allamah Tabatabai(A) is well known in the study circles of both the Islamic Seminary in Najaf, Kerbala, Jabal Amel, Hyderabad, Lucknow, Mashhad and Qum, and his book al-Mizan fi Tafsiril Quran is known as amongst the best tafaseer of the Holy Quran.

Granted, he is not the only mufassir, Ayatullah Sayyed Abul Qasim al-Khui(A) had a tafseer which he wrote - al-Bayan Fi Tafseeril Quran - again this is well known and studied in most, if not all of the Islamic Seminaries, Ayatullah Jawadi-Amoli has also written a tafsir, has Ayatullah Tabrizi, and Ayatullah Shirazi (the two you mentioned), and these are also available for study.  But the primary book of tafseer and the one used as a refernce most of the time is that of Allamah Tabatabai(A), al-Mizan fi Tafseeril Quran, and that of Ayatullah Khui(A), al-Bayan Fi Tafseeril Quran.  There are many tafaseer available, because al-hamdu lillah we have many high ranking Ulema and the study of the book of Allah is flourishing and gaining new supporters and mufassireen day by day.

Your susequant statement regarding Ayatullah Shaheed Mutahhari(A), Allamah Tabatabai(A) and Imam Khumayni(A) and that they are comparable to the Bolshevik Lenin - are totaly reprehensible.  You claim that they became famous due to the Islamic Revolution in Iran, granted, this is something that they all worked extremely hard, with their blood, sweat and tears, to build up the situation that the believers may be in a situation where they could flourish and Islam could be moved forward and the situation of the oppressed people could be remedied.

They were extremely high Ulema, and not to be joked about or compared to trivial athiestic materialists who tried to implement an impotent man-made ideology.  The work that the Ulema of the Islamic Revolution did was not for this world, and non of them were materialistic in anyway.  

Also, Imam Khumayni(A), Allamah Tabatabai and Ayatullah Shaheed Mutahhari - were very well known prior to the revolution, do you think they could just walk into a country and make a revolution if people did not know of them?  Just because in Pakistan, India or elsewhere - the ignorance level was so high that people were not aware of the situation of other Muslims - does not mean they were not known.

Also, the important thing for the true lovers of Allah, is not that they are known by the people, the priority ALWAYS is that Allah knows who they are.  That Allah accepts them.

Understand that criticism of myself is fine, but do NOT criticise the ulema, when you have no knowledge and are comming across as extremely arrogant.

I once again warn you and remind you of the words of Imam Ali(A):

[b:post_uid0]Often your utterances and expressions of your face leak out the secrets of your hidden thoughts.[/b:post_uid0]

Now let us move onto your fourth paragraph:

Ehsan, thank you, mocking me shows that you aren't here to learn only to win an argument. I might be a 5 year old kid, but this five year old is making you panic, because he speaks the truth.

Your mockery of Br Ehsan, who in his own elequant manner has broken all of your previous arguments is testimony to the fact that you do NOT read the posts that people put up in response to your own.  This is a clear sign of ignorance, as confirmed by the well known saying of Imam Ali(A):

[b:post_uid0]An ignorant person will always overdo a thing or neglect it totally.[/b:post_uid0]

I will not dignify this any further with a response, suffice it to say, that Br Ehsan has destroyed your arguments totally and I suggest that you read his posts.

Moving onto the next paragraph:

This is not meant to be an argument....understand that Fatima AlZahraa   says "He originated things but not from anything that existed before them."

So according to Irfaanis the book "light within me" Allah is the Ocean and we are droplets of water. This statement contradicts that of Al-Zahraa    either that or Allah is not Qadeem wal 3eeaadhubilaah.

My dear and beloved brother, the statement you quote from Sayyedah Fatimah az-Zahra(A) is brilliant, and the fact that you see things litterally and cannot understand the metaphorical meanings of the statements is proof that your thinking is only at the surface, and you do not ponder on concepts deeply.

You will I am sure recollect that in the Quran, Allah tells us to ponder many times, he tells us to reflect on concepts many many times.  Do you reflect on concepts deeply brother?  Because from the rhetoric that you are spewing it seems that you do not have any metaphorical understanding.  This is sad, because while you may have read the HOly Quran and Nahj ul-Balagha - you will never be able to understand much from them - I know the Quran is on many different levels, but for humans, non-Infallible humans it is possible to understand a number of these levels and get strength from them and develop a love for Allah, but you seem to be insistant on taking the litteral meaning of these statements.

The question is not whether Allah is Qadeem or not, we know for a fact that he is Qadeem, this is something that cannot be disputed, and also Sayyedah Zahra(A) was infallible, but what makes you think that two statements you have quoted are contradictory - please elaborate.

Indeed, in taking the litteral meaning of the two statements, you are in fact placing a limitation upon Allah, in that you are saying that Sayyedah Zahra(A) is saying "He originated things but not from anything that existed before them.", and that the Urafa are saying that "Allah is the Ocean and we are droplets of water" - what do you mean?  Are you saying that it is NOT POSSIBLE FOR US TO BE DROPLETS WITHIN THE OCEAN OF Allah?  IF NOT THEN ARE WE DROPLETS WITHIN THE OCEAN OF NON-Allah?  THEREFORE IS THERE A PLACE WITHOUT Allah?  OH DEAR - LOOK BROTHER TAKING IT LITERALLY MEANS THAT YOU HAVE PLACES A LIMIT UPON Allah AND HENCE HAVE COMMITED SHIRK.

I once again caution you to think deeply and reflect on Imam Ali(A)'s words:

[b:post_uid0]Often your utterances and expressions of your face leak out the secrets of your hidden thoughts.[/b:post_uid0]

Moving on to what you said next:

The Holy Quran states : لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ

[112:3] He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

This does not mean that he hasn't given a vaginal birth,  this means nothing was made from him. But we were created by him. Allahs omnipresence doesn't require Him to be a part of us to be everywhere, with this the Irfaanis have placed a limit on Allah (SWT). My dear brothers read the first sermon of Nahjul Balagha.

Alhamdulillah, I am always happy when the Quran is quoted, especially such a small yet powerful segment of a small yet immensely powerful Surah - al-Ikhlas or at-Tawheed.

Indeed it is true - that Allah does not beget, nor is He begotten.  Totally.

The concept is not even related remotely to "vaginal birth".  By claiming that "nothing is made from Allah" - you are infact stating that we are made of "non-Allah" - and hence once again, have committed Shirk, and given a limit to Allah.

Why do you keep doing this?  This is a sign of major issues in your understanding of Tawheed.  I am concerned for your belief my dear and beloved brother.

As for the sermon of Imam Ali(A), Subhanallah, as you will no doubt see, I have quoted the first paragraph of it at the start of my post.

I will not dignify your lack of understanding of my explanation of omnipresence with an answer.  You should read the post I made in explaining that previously and you will realise if you think a little deeply that you are mistaken in your assumption.

I'm not here to debate Shabbir & Co., just here to warn you not to become heretics like Ibn Arabi, Ibn Sina, Mulla Sadra etc....

My esteemed brother, you are obviously here to debate, since by implication when you warn and are asked questions regarding your warning - it becomes a debate - is there a slight possibility that you - are mistaken?  Or has your belief reached such a stage that you have become a self-made infallible, like Sayyedah Zaynab bint Ali(A), or Sayyed Abdul Fadhl Abbas(A)?

I think not, since you have - from what you have stated earlier - serious issues with the most basic of the Usul ad-Deen (Foundations of Ideology).

If you are interested, then we can meet up - if you are in London, and we can discuss further the concepts that you have issues with, you are more than welcome to come to my house, or we can meet anywhere else that is convenient for you, and we can discuss these issues, and you can attempt to convince that I am wrong, and that what you are warning against is indeed a threat.

But if you reflect deeply then you will realise that the only threat that exists is your litterlistic interpretation of Tawheed, and of Allah, and by implications the limts you place upon him.

Please my dear brother, do not allow arrogance and pride to take the better of you, you have serious issues with Tawheed (or maybe I have), either way it is now your responsibility to either correct me or allow me to help you correct the issues you have.

This is basic Amr bil Ma'rouf and Nahi Anil Munkar.

With Salaams and Dua's to those who love Allah (I assume that you love Allah)

Shabbir

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In His Name, the Most High

Salaams to those who accept righteous guidance,

I am not going to dignify your abusive response, with a detailed response.

You have shown your true colours as against the system of Wilayah, and against the true Islam of Muhammad(S).

"To you your belief, and to me mine"

Be woebetide you if you insult the leader of the Muslim Ummah, Imam Khamenei(HA).

You will repent in this world and the next.

I leave you with a final quote from Imam Ali(A) where he states:

"If you bring me a wise man I will debate him, but if you bring me a fool, he will destroy me"

Still, until you are dead and within your grave and the manifest reality has been made apparent to you - there is still hope for you to mend your ways and at least develop some basic Islamic Ethics and concepts.

I will always be there to help you my beloved but sorely misguided and arrogant brother.

With Salaams and Dua's to those who accept righteous guidance.

Shabbir

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salam

brother

your remarks;

(oops! once again I forgot you are Allah and you are Omniscient  silly me).

Do you not fear Allah(swt)?

I do not know how others percieve this discussion, but I am offended that you would use Allah(swt) name in such a way ! to get a point of view accross !

That you feel the need to insult the purehousehold(as).

You obviously do not understand the concept of Irfan !

Whether this is due to the lack of knowledge ! mental capability ! or your egotistic self !  

I ask you once again please stop !

salams and duas

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Bismillah wha Salam!

As you might see Abulhujjaj, I always begin my posts with the name of Allah (Swt) to show that I work for His sake (or try at least).

There is no need to answer your arguments any more, the reason I wrote so even a 5 year old can understand was because Sheikh Shabbir put it out very detailed, high tech and eloquently so you might not have understood correctly what he said, so I did you a favour and put it on a very low ground.

First and foremost Shabbirh I'm glad to see you quote nahjul balagha. Your prejudice amazes me, you claim that I haven't read your previous posts nor have I read Ehsan's posts, (oops! once again I forgot you are Allah and you are Omniscient :wacko: silly me).

I don't know if you didn't understand my last post, misunderstood it or don't want to understand it?

Eitherway it was let me make it even simpler, so if I obey my dad because I love him, it means suddenly I AM my dad or that I have several fathers?! What is this?

So If I love my Creator I am my Creator or belive in several ones?

Imam Ali Reza   (as) says Islam is based on reason, what reasoning is this that if I love somebody/something suddenly I become that thing or turn t into several once?!

Ok Abul Hujjaj, since you love your mother you are a mother or you ahve several mothers, thats it :P

Since you seem to read koran, you might know that all the animals and trees worship Him. Now let me go back to my bird here. Everytime he flies its a sign of Allah (Swt) mercy. Everytime he makes a sound, he utterce a praise to Him. But my bird has not studied religion nor does he know what paradise or hell is. Now because my bird worships Him because He is worthy of being worshiped it means my bird is Allah (Swt) (istirghfurillah) or that he worships several gods?

And if you think my bird is a mushrik it means you have violated the sunnat Allah (nature laws) and his Holy Word in The Koran.

Now how do you want it?

Now please follow the brotherly advice of Sheikh Shabbir, sister Confusus and all other, mine to, and stop this discussion, you are on very thin ice, watch out so it don't break... :nono:

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