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DaSouljah

Ayatullah khameni - What did he do?

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(salam)

First off, Imam Khamenei (HA) did not ban zanjeer.  He rightfully banned the ritual of ghameh zani.  He points out that it "...gives the impression that Shiite Moslems are superstitious and irrational...".  

We're not talking about Zanjeer here :)

and secondly, We know what he thinks thats the reason he banned it...

But the thing is that why is he imposing on others to follow this fatawa?? why cant one follow any other marji' who has allowed and encourages Qama zani ??

I have stated the clear fatwas u can read them :)

ma salama

Blades or No blades (Zanjeer). If a non-Muslim watches Shi'i beating themselves with just chains the impression would be the same as if he was using blades at the end of his chains.

However, I think some people are mixing up the concept of HARAM and "Being Banned". To ban something does not mean to make it Haram. To ban something is [b:post_uid0]man's law.[/b:post_uid0] Ie [b:post_uid0]Law of the Land.[/b:post_uid0]

Because it is law of land, Muslims are obliged to follow it. But let's make a clear distinction between what is banned and what is Haram. Clearly they are not the same thing.

Making something [b:post_uid0]Haram[/b:post_uid0] -- means [i:post_uid0]Allah made it forbidden[/i:post_uid0], [b:post_uid0]banning[/b:post_uid0] [i:post_uid0]something means MAN made it restricted.[/i:post_uid0]

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

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Peer Syed Sahib,

Is there any law in Iran that say you cannot practice Zanjeer?

or is it a volantary thing i.e. the people decided not to do because they just love (or follow) the leader?

Khuda Hafiz.

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Blades or No blades (Zanjeer). If a non-Muslim watches Shi'i beating themselves with just chains the impression would be the same as if he was using blades at the end of his chains.

Salams,

I have seen people doing matam (beating themselves) in Iran with zanjeer but without the blades.

Khuda-Hafiz.

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(salam)

Then whats the use of a Islamic government if Islamic rituals and practises are not allowed there? :)

LAW OF THE LAND should be the LAWS OF ISLAM

(if the govt. is islamic)

dont you think so?

[b:post_uid1]Orion[/b:post_uid1] Bro. make it clear we aren't talking about Zanjeer.. we are talking about Qama...I think you know the difference...

and yeah, It is BANNED in Iran by the govt. authorities :)

ma salama

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Then whats the use of a Islamic government if Islamic rituals and practises are not allowed there?

LAW OF THE LAND should be the LAWS OF ISLAM

No doubt what you say is correct but What if the jurists who pass islamic law come to the conclusion that such and such practice is not allowed in Islam?

Edited By Orion on 1033745481

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When you say law of Islam are you implying Law of Allah, or Law of nature, or Law of Sharia?

Law of man is allowed in Islam. If the Law of man does not violate the obligations of Muslim than it is to be followed. Zanjeer is not an obligation.

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

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When you say law of Islam are you implying Law of Allah, or Law of nature, or Law of Sharia?

There is only one law and that is of Allah. You may name it whatever you want, but what Ulema do is that they do research to find what Allah wants us to do, or not to do. This is what Sharia (Islamic Laws) are all about.

Khuda Hafiz.

Edited By Orion on 1033756607

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(salam)

No doubt what you say is correct but What if the jurists who pass islamic law come to the conclusion that such and such practice is not allowed in Islam?

First of all, I wanted to make it clear that I am not saying that Ayatollah Al-Udhma Khamenei has issued a wrong fatawa or like that.....(although I do believe in mourning like this but here my point isn't that)

Well, if the jurist who pass islamic law come to the conclusion that such and such practice is not allowed in Islam, then he should issue the fatawa....but he should not ban it BECAUSE it is a controversial issue, and many (not 4 or 5 but many) jurists as great and learned as Ayatollah Khui and Seestani has allowed it...

As far as the islamic image is concerned, some people even dont agree with making the images of Alam (standard), Zuljenahs and Ziarahs, and I myself saw a sunni woman, exploring the 'Cradle of Hazrat Ali Asghar' and smirking on the things there...and many other things also...including all kinds of mourning for Imam Hussain (as) , and Hijab matters....

Well, I just said it, but in actual my question is that , by banning the fatawas of other maraji's , isnt Khamenei imposing his own fatawas over others??

This is to be cleared up please..

[b:post_uid2]Dhulfiqar:[/b:post_uid2] Islam is known as the RELIGION OF NATURE :) anyways, I dont feel any difference between the the tree types of laws you have stated above..

So, the Ayubis (in egypt) were right to ban the Azadari in their era? was this right by the laws of Islam? Is this right to ban the mourning gatherings??

anyways, Take Care guys :)

ma salama

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(salam)

Then whats the use of a Islamic government if Islamic rituals and practises are not allowed there? :)

LAW OF THE LAND should be the LAWS OF ISLAM

(if the govt. is islamic)

dont you think so?

[b:post_uid0]Orion[/b:post_uid0] Bro. make it clear we aren't talking about Zanjeer.. we are talking about Qama...I think you know the difference...

and yeah, It is BANNED in Iran by the govt. authorities :)

ma salama

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Aslamo 3alikum,

Qama is banned and is definetly harram...alhamdulilah they dun do it in iran nymore.

Now I am tired of stating the fatawas of different Grand Ayatollahs on this issue.

just scroll up and read the fatawas of different Grand Ayatollahs on this....

My Question is still un-answered...

ma salama

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Salams Pir Sahib,

As far as the islamic image is concerned, some people even dont agree with making the images of Alam (standard), Zuljenahs and Ziarahs,...

The issue is not "Azadari" as it is practiced in Iran with procession, matam, alams evrything. It is possible that there may be some differences from area to area but overall it is the same. Here are some photos of [b:post_uid0]Moharram in Iran[/b:post_uid0]:

image

image

image

image

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Guest YA ZAHRA

but there r so many ppl livin in iran that have different opinion n are NOT opperssed

and that makes it alright?  :)

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Salaam alaikum,

I don't know why you are acting like Sayid Khamene'i, himself, is the one who banned these practices.  This type of matam hasn't been practiced in Iran since the revolution.  Apparantly the lawmakers in Iran, are convinced that this practice should not be allowed.  It's their country and their responsibility to make laws that are appropriate for their country.  

WaSalaam, Hajar

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Guest YA ZAHRA

Its practised every year when i go  uh??

Latom/mataam are practised in almost every anniversary of our Ahlulbayt (as).

Edited By YA ZAHRA on 1033843161

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Aslamo 3alikum,

[b:post_uid0]Orion:[/b:post_uid0] Sorry brother, I think you didn't read my post clearly :) , kindly read it again, I didnt say that Azadari is banned in Iran.

[b:post_uid0]Hajar:[/b:post_uid0] The question is simple sister :) , Qama is allowed and highly encouraged by many learned scholars

Now, this is a proved fact (for ref. scroll back and read the clear and encouraging fatawas)

Why is he making people not to follow the rulings of Ayatollah Khui' and Seestani and Safi Gulpaygani and Ayatollah Muhammad Sadiq Rouhani and Shirazi etc etc... ?? You should remember that in earlier post you said that he has said that people in Iran can follow any other marji's ...but how? if they aren't allowed to act upon their rulings???

ma salama

Edited By Peer Syed Sahib on 1033852843

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Guest YA ZAHRA

To imply that there are many who are not oppressed means there are those who are oppressed also. My question was simply, is this action acceptable? If yes then fine. But until i know why they are oppressed, i cant find a place in my heart to accept it.

Wasalaam

Edited By YA ZAHRA on 1033865599

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Salam Alaykom,

i myself dun think it is right to question ayatullah khamenie( i dun think if imam  was alive we'd question him)...cuz he knows whats he is doin and is aware of his actions...

Yes, no one would question Imam Mahdi (atf) since he is Gods representative on earth, and he is a masoom member of the Holy AhlulBayt.  Syed Khamanei is not.  We are saying there is mistreatment/oppression going on against our scholars in Iran and as the Ayatullah Khomeini (ra) pointed out: "Anyone who governs a country is responsible for all oppression that happens within the country regardless of whether he has knowledge of it or not...."

Grand Ayatullah Saanei, is a marjei, who has beenleadin calls for the end of mistreatment to scholars such as to the end of the current house arrest of Ayatullah Montazeri.  Ayatollah Saanei is one of the most revered and influential religious authorities in the holy city of Qom. Prior to the revolution he was a protégé of Ayatollah Khomeini, who once described him as being like a son. He served on the first Council of Guardians after the revolution, and later as the Islamic Republic's chief prosecutor.

As Ayatullah Saaneei has said " In Islam and Shiite world, infallibility had been limited to a very specific and small number of individuals. No one is infallible, especially when it comes to people's affairs. The country is managed by the will of the people. We cannot say that decision of one individual is right and the beliefs of others are wrong. In an Islamic system everyone has one vote, from the Supreme Leader, to the President and all other authorities. [b:post_uid0]The Supreme Leader has only one vote and he should not be able to impose his ideas on anyone else[/b:post_uid0]. He is not infallible. He is capable of making mistakes just like everyone else. To err is human."

On the issue of Tatbeer....again.  Once again, we have to point out its not the issue of whos right/wrong.  The fact is that the majority of scholars have allowed it, and people are not allowed to exercise their religious rites.

As i have said many times before Ayatollah Sayed Mohammed Sadeq Rouhani, has also been held under house arrest in Qom for more than 12 years came under pressure from the authorities in mid-1995 after he wrote an open letter to President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, in which he criticized restrictions on traditional religious rites during the mourning period of Ashura; and human rights violations against those who participated in such rites, including arrests and imprisonment of large numbers of people; and the exile, beatings, and reported killings of some.

What the above marjei has said, this is what we are against.  Tatbeer etc was only mentioned as an issue that has lead to mistreatment as stated above by Ayatullah Rouhani.  

It's their country and their responsibility to make laws that are appropriate for their country.  

this is our country this is what our brothers blood was shed for

Many people have been saying that its Irans country let them do what they want etc as stated above.Yes itis their country etc.......then why do you try and impose Irans leaders ideas onto people, and therefore call him the "leader of the Ummah".  All our scholars are our leaders.  Even if it is agreed that Irans country should be able to do what it wants, justice has to prevail, and injustice must be condemned.

The Holy Prophet said: "The one who sees a wrong action done should prohibit it by his deed, if he is capable, of course; and if he cannot do that, he should prohibit it by his tongue, but if he is not able to do even that, he may forbid it by his heart."

Wasa'il-ush-Shi'ah

this is our country this is what our brothers blood was shed for this is what our Grand Father gave us by the GRACE OF Allah ALMIGHTY. this is ours and if you mess with it youll get whats coming to you

Many great people died for the great Iranian revolution.This is the same in South Lebanon, where i even had family members killed :cry:

Ayatullah Montazeri, who is under house arrest, lost his learned son, a scholar, when he was brutully killed by the MKO.  Therefore, many scholars who are being mistreated also bled for the revolution and still do.  

As i have said before, we are merely protesting against the treatment of scholars etc, not going against Iran.  

Also, one must keep in mind that"the ink of a scholar is worth more than the blood of a martyr" The Holy Prophet  pbuh

What will be coming towards me, hmm....house arrest maybe?

But until i know why they are oppressed, i cant find a place in my heart to accept it.

Im not sure what you meant bro/sis.  There can be no reason/excuse for tortue etc Many scholars have done nothing but raised their opinions against certain issues (e.g. wiliyah, tatbeer, running of country etc) and for that they have been oppressed.  I will never accept the mistreatment against our marjei.

Wassalam

Edited By Ya Ali on 1033869226

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In His Name the Most High

Salaams

If a "scholar" is against the system of Wilayah and goes against the Leader of the Muslim Ummah, then he is a danger to the Islamic Government.

Hence he should be placed under survailence.

This is obvious.

Anyone who works against a government of any type will be placed under survailence.

A scholar who has little political expertise - even though he may have lots of religious knowledge is not able to speak within the political domain, since he has a lack of knowledge within the arena - this is something obvious.

Its about time people started looking at things clearly and not through "American Propoganda" coloured glasses.

America wants people to talk against the Islamic Republic and the Leadership of the Wilayah - if you have a problem with something the Wilayah is doing - for any reason - this is valid - sometimes we don't understand the reason for a particular issue - what does one do if one doesn't understand something?

Blurt it out in public?  Allow damage to be done to the Wilayah by his/her ignorance (or possibly arrogance)?  No, the person should ask the Wilayah.

Answers are easy to come by - Imam al-Khamenei(HA) has a site, and an email address, granted it may sound like its for istiftaat - but at the end of the - what is istiftaat - questions - so ask.

Lets not act like the Iraqi scum in the time of Imam Ali(A) who when Imam Ali(A) said to them "Ask me, Ask me and I will answer you" - asked him "How many hairs on my head" and other such stupid and ignorant question - with one aim - to prove him wrong.

Ask real questions and ask the Leadership.

In conclusion, a scholar is valuable, yes - this is very true, but a scholar who speaks within an arena where he has no knowledge or expertise - is a danger.

Why was Muntazari removed from the successorship by Imam al-Khumayni(A)?   Because he lacked political accumen, and had mistakenly conspired with the enemies of Wilayah in a plot to bring it down.

He himself is not a bad person, he just has no political accumen.  We must apply this rule to every "scholar".

It is similar to the example of certain people who declare their "Marja'iyyat" without having the relevant knowledge and accumen to back it up - and hence fail at such tasks and misguide the masses.

If the Leader of the Muslim Ummah, the Wali Amr, has no political accumen, then you've got a problem.  This is why the position of the Leader of the Muslim Ummah is not a mickey mouse position and is not something that can be filled by just anybody - it is a serious position, as the protection of the entire Muslim Ummah, and all the oppressed in the world is on his shoulders (in the absence of Imam al-Mahdi(May our souls be his ransom).

We must think clearly about this.  

We must not speak without full knowledge - and if there is an issue that you have with the Wilayah - contact them - the website for the Wilayah is Wilayah HomePage.

Think deeply about what I have written here.  It is important and in the absence of Imam al-Mahdi(AJ) since the Wilayah is an extention of the Imamate, it forms part of the fundamentals (Usul) of your belief.  Do not take them lightly and do not insult the Wali Amr or speak against him without first obtaining proof of his -alleged negligence.

Also remember, just because someone calls himself an Alem, or wears the clothes, it means nothing - they have to proove themselve.

Why is it that we know when Imam al-Mahdi(AJ) returns, he will first kill 40,000 of the Shia Ulema???

Bears thinking about doesn't it.

This is critical.

With Salaams and Dua's

Shabbir

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Salam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

Ya Ali

We cannot say that decision of one individual is right and the beliefs of others are wrong

I don't think you really understand what is going on in Iran.  It is not just the decision of one person only, it's not like everyone is saying one thing and one person is saying another, and this one person's say takes precedence. That's not what is happening.

The Majority of the scholars and people agree with Khameni ( about zanjeer ).

I think this discussion should end, because some individuals are repeating and recycling their words.  

Salam.

Edited By Mujahid on 1033913442

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Aslamo 3alikum,

[b:post_uid1]Mujahid[/b:post_uid1]: I dont know how can you call it majority...How many Grand Ayatollahs are agreed with banning Qama zani?? may I know please??

9 maraje' of the holy city of Qum on the occassion of Ashura 1423 Hijri, spoke out for Qama zani...

Anyways, the thing isn't this

Do you think, Agha Khui' and Seestani with all their greatness and knowledge, should not be followed????

yes, members are repeating their words because the ones, who aren't agreeing, aren't even replying the repeated questions....

ma salama

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Assalamu Alikum,

I have still not seen a reply to the question posed: by Bro Ya Zahra

"Is the oppression of Shia Ulama acceptable because they have a different opinion than that of Ayatollah Khamenei?

We all tend to avoid the whole basis of the question to begin with, and start new topics within a post which gets pretty frustrating.

This whole issue concerning Wilayat Al-Faqih personally makes little sense to me.

If a "scholar" is against the system of Wilayah and goes against the Leader of the Muslim Ummah, then he is a danger to the Islamic Government.

This statement is serious. What you are saying is that any Scholar with differing opinions to the Wilayah is a threat that should be dealt with? This is what i understood from this statement. We are talking about scholar's who have devoted there entire lives to study islam.

So if in their opinion they, through logical reasoning can't accept the concept of Waliyah, it seems that there is a possibility of their life being placed in danger???  In accordance to what is being discussed, we are saying if they have a differing opinion they should be put under house arrest!!!!!!!

My marja Sayyid Sesstani (may Allah protect him) says that I have to follow those of knowledge. In my opinion Sayyid Seestani is the most knowledgable. So where does that leave me then, and the rest of the population????  Are we all rebelling against the Iran then???

I agree that this issue is very controversal one. But it needs to be explored a bit more with an open mind.

May Allah(swt) hasten the reappearance of our Beloved Imam Al-Mehdi(as) soonnnnn.

And i hope i have not offened anyone plz forgive me if I have. I just need the answers to the questions asked. Wasalam.

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Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim

Salaam Aleikum,

Let me attempt to answer the original question:

"Is the oppression of Shia Ulama acceptable because they have a different opinion than that of Ayatollah Khamenei?"

Did anyone say it was? If so, who? If not, then why was the question raised?

The only people oppressing Ayatullah Seestani the Iraqi regime. If other Shi'a Ulema are oppressed, then please explain who, and in your opinion how and why.

As to whether it is "acceptable" that anyone who has a different opinion from Imam Khamenei (ha) is oppressed, I'd ask why you'd think they would be? If I have a different opinion from someone else, it is not cause for me to "oppress" them. If they actively work [b:post_uid0]against[/b:post_uid0] me, or what i believe, then of course I will act against them. Simple.

But I don't believe that Imam Khamenei (ha) would oppress anyone, as this would be an act of kufr. Are you implying that the leader of the Muslim Ummah is a kafir?

Again, I demand evidence be presented to justify such a weighted and accusatory question. If it was not intended to be so, then I ask that the question be rephrased.

So, the simple answer to your question is:

No, of course it's not acceptable that anyone is oppressed for having a different opinion from the Leader of the Muslim Ummah.

But I must confess, I thought even a child could answer such a simple question with little difficulty. Obviously I was wrong.  :)

Wasalaam,

Jondab-Ali

Edited By Jondab-Ali on 1033939669

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Salam alaikum,

Bro peer syed sahib:  Earlier you stated that ayatollah khui and seestani 'encouraged' mutilation of the body, which you have no proof of this.  If you look back to what bro ya ali posted about khui and seestani's replies, both of them ONLY said it's allowable, with CAUTION.  They didn't encourage it.  If what he posted is the true words of khui and seestani at all.

I'm sorry brother but that is two things right there that you tried to twist.

And who says Khameni is oppressing anyone?  Do you think khui and seestani have spoken against Khameni? If so bring proof.  Stop talking about things which you do not know the truth about, and of which you do not know all the facts.

Stop talking on the basis of rumours.

This goes mostly for you bro Ya Ali.

Salam.

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Aslamo 3alikum

(salam)

[b:post_uid1]Mujahid:[/b:post_uid1] Brother, I didn't said it particularly for Ayatollah Khui' and Seestani, I said it in general...many Grand Ayatollahs have encouraged it and asked to pray for them after doing it.....(for reference scroll back and see my post where I have posted some fatawas of Grand Ayatollahs of holy city of Qum)..

Ayatollah Khui' and Seestani have allowed it..

Now, brother as I said earlier also, dont get into the thing that this is haram or halal...

You should agree with the fact that this practise which is allowed and encouraged by different Grand Ayatollahs is banned.. Thus people cant act on the rulings of their marja's ...( How many times I have repeated this question uh?? )

ma salama

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Salam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

Bro's and Sis's,

I think there are outside forces trying to cause trouble in the Deen ( religion ).  I'm not trying to take sides with groups of people or with certain scholars.  I agree just like everyone does that people should not be oppressed.  Also, that nobody and no scholars should be mistreated.  These are obvious things.  

I think we should not point fingers and undermine each other.  If there are problems or arguments, we should resolve them in a kind way.  Not by saying rumours and attacking scholars.  The topic here was what did Khameni do, some of the comments being made here seem to be directly blaming him.  This is very disrespectful in my opinion, because you do not know all the truths and facts.  It is a very bold statement to also say that you do and point fingers and undermine this great scholar.  

Yes, the islamic government might not be perfect, but I do believe that there are people trying their best to do what's right.  These outside forces that constantly try to cause problems and attack the islamic government are making them look bad.  

I'm writing this after seeing a very disturbing site.

I apologize also to Bro Peer Syed Sahib and Ya Ali, if I sounded offensive earlier.  Anyways I'm sorry :(

Salam.

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Well you did say this Bro peer syed sahib

First of all bro. [b:post_uid0]what about the fatwas of all those great marji's who have encouraged it?? including khui' , seestani[/b:post_uid0] and all.. ???? and trying to prove that they were wrong?

You did say including khui and seestani.

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(salam)

Oh sorry, it must be like this

"what about the fatwas of all those great marji's who have encouraged it?? including khui' , seestani who have allowed it and all.. ????

Thanks for pointing towards the mistake, but in real it doesn't make any difference on the question, it is still there :)

ma salama

Edited By Peer Syed Sahib on 1033982923

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Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim

Salaam Peer Syed Sahib,

I noticed you are STILL asking the SAME question which has already been answered...

Thanks for pointing towards the mistake, but in real it doesn't make any difference on the question, it is still there

When was it answered?

Check my last post, before this one. I even took the liberty of giving the less intellectual among us a simple answer at the end of my reply, as follows:

So, the simple answer to your question is:

No, of course it's not acceptable that anyone is oppressed for having a different opinion from the Leader of the Muslim Ummah.

But I must confess, I thought even a child could answer such a simple question with little difficulty. Obviously I was wrong.

Indeed, obviously I WAS wrong. Or are you just selectively reading posts now?

Your question HAS been answered, yet you persist in creating FITNAH, it is now clear for everyone to see.

If you don't understand my answer, then I'll attempt to dumb it down a shade or two. If you want to rephrase your question so that it is fair, then I'll also welcome that. But if you don't cease and desist from your current line of ignorance, then I'm afraid I'll be forced to speak to the Moderators of this board. I'm sure they have a clause to deal with those who persist in creating fitnah.

Wasalaam,

Jondab-Ali

Edited By Jondab-Ali on 1033991985

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Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim

Salaam Peer Syed Sahib,

I noticed you are STILL asking the SAME question which has already been answered...

Thanks for pointing towards the mistake, but in real it doesn't make any difference on the question, it is still there

When was it answered?

Check my last post, before this one. I even took the liberty of giving the less intellectual among us a simple answer at the end of my reply, as follows:

So, the simple answer to your question is:

No, of course it's not acceptable that anyone is oppressed for having a different opinion from the Leader of the Muslim Ummah.

But I must confess, I thought even a child could answer such a simple question with little difficulty. Obviously I was wrong.

Indeed, obviously I WAS wrong. Or are you just selectively reading posts now?

Your question HAS been answered, yet you persist in creating FITNAH, it is now clear for everyone to see.

If you don't understand my answer, then I'll attempt to dumb it down a shade or two. If you want to rephrase your question so that it is fair, then I'll also welcome that.

Wasalaam,

Jondab-Ali

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In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

Let us now examine your points so "politely" put - also can you please qualify who you mean by "dummies"?

Right then

a) Khomeini is not masoom [if he was he wouldn't have the same irrational thoughts as the sufis that God is us and we are God]

Right then.  You obviously have little knowledge about the Islamic Discipline of Irfan, and also do not know that Imam Ali(A) and Prophet Muhammad(S) are often refered to as the first of the 'Urfa' (people who practice Irfan/Gnosticism).

The concept of God is us, and we are God is not that hard to understand from a superficial way.

Let me try and explain, but since I'm a "dummy" if it doesnt sink into your all encompassing brain - sorry - I will give you some links to Irfani material that you can read - among it is Nahj ul-Balagha of Imam Ali(A) - but I'm sure off course you know all of this.

Right then, do you believe that Allah is Omnipresent (everywhere at the same time)?  Yes because it is part of the fundamental belief of Tawhid and Adalah.  Also are we of relevance or not?  Off course we are not - the only thing that will every remain eternally is Allah - nothing else.

If we follow in the line of Allah, and Allah is within each and everyone of us, and without as well - then it is obvious that God is us, and we are God.  Since if this was not the case, you have immediately placed a limitation on Allah, and hence have committed the cardinal sin of Shirk (which encompasses limiting Allah as well as placing partners with Him) and have hence left the fold of the true Islam.

This is simple - though I am sure you knew this.  You will I am sure try and dispute what I am saying, but I would advise you to utilize caution as everything you say gives away large amounts of your hidden belief as Imam Ali(A) has said (in Nahjul Balagha):

[b:post_uid0]Often your utterances and expressions of your face leak out the secrets of your hidden thoughts. [/b:post_uid0]

Also you may want to read up on Irfan so as to understand your belief better and develop a closer relationship with Allah, the Supreme Entity.

Here are some links that may help you:

http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/article.php?sid=227

http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/article.php?sid=228

http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/article.php?sid=231

http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5/article.php?sid=232

There are many more links on Irfan that you can find by clicking this link:

http://www.islamicdigest.net/id5....stories

I would also suggest reading the book "The Light Within Me" by Imam Khumayni(A), Ayatullah Shaheed Mutahhari(A) and others.  If you like - you can meet me and I will give you a copy and a meal insha Allah. :D

Continuing on your point, granted that Imam Khumayni(A) and Imam Khamenei(HA) are not infallible in the same was as the Aimmah(A) were - definately.

But THEY ARE infallible in the same way as Sayyed Abul Fadl al-Abbas(A), and Sayyedah Zaynab(A) were, i.e. they were self-made infallibles.  But again, I am sure you knew this - or maybe you don't consider Sayyedah Zaynab(A) as an infallible (self-made off course).

Now for your second point:

Khamanaei is not the ultimate representative of Imam al-hujjat   [if he is then we need some proof, and we need to know why there is so much of THIS

Since this question has been answered in an other thread, I will refer you to that thread to save space and time and repetition.

The thread where this has been answer is available by following the link below:

http://www.shiachat.com/cgi-bin....35;st=0

I would reccomend reading the whole thread in its entirity and then commenting ok.

Also you cite Amnesty International, an organisation against Islam and against the Justice of Allah, and you expect people to take you seriously?

If people in Iran are punished for crimes, such as a peadophile being thrown off a cliff and then hung if he survives, it is based on the threat that the crime has to society and in particular the next generation.

Crimes such as adultary, prositution, drug taking, etc, cause major social problems and hence need to be dealt with severely so as to dissuade people from committing them.  Think about it deeply.  You will know that this is true.

Also, if someone opposes the Islamic Government System, you have to question why they do it - if they want to establish a western style "liberal democracy" - then it is against the principles of Islam, and it will not be tolerated.

Americanism has three core values, this is a fact - they are Wealth, Sex, and Power, they want to insert these values into the Muslim youth to create a "securalised"(in your heart only) kind of Islam that plays no role in social justice - how is this valid.

To learn more about this, I would reccomend that you listen and read the article/video available via this link:

Arabic Video With English Subtitles

or

Text in English

Now onto your third question:

c) Do not abuse the other marja3s by calling them shmucks, if your losing the argument that means your fighting a losing battle, so don't resort to argumentum ad hominem.

Fair comment, I agree with you totally.  Insulting other Maraje'i should not be tolerated, by the same token insults to the Leader of the Muslim Ummah, and Protector of the Oppressed, the Wali Amr al-Muslimeen, Imam al-Khamenei(May Allah protect him from the enemies) should not be tolerated.

Please cite examples where other Maraje' have been insulted and by whome, within the context of this discussion.

Finally, your fourth point:

d) we are all brothers and sisters, regardless of who our marja3 is (as long as we believe in the message of Allah)

Again, I agree with what you are saying - totally.  We are all brothers and sisters, and who our Marja'i is is not an issue - the only issue is the loyalty to the Leader of the Muslim Ummah, and even if someone has a valid reason for not recognising this authority, since he is also a Marja' people should show respect and refer to him at least as Ayatullah if the word Imam doesn't feel right.

Finally,

Thanks for your comments, very useful.

With Salaams and Dua's

Shabbir

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Guest YA ZAHRA

Continuing on your point, granted that Imam Khumayni(A) and Imam Khamenei(HA) are not infallible in the same was as the Aimmah(A) were - definately.

But THEY ARE infallible in the same way as Sayyed Abul Fadl al-Abbas(A), and Sayyedah Zaynab(A) were, i.e. they were self-made infallibles.  But again, I am sure you knew this - or maybe you don't consider Sayyedah Zaynab(A) as an infallible (self-made off course).

So you place Ayatollah Khomeini / Khamenei in the same status of infallibility as Abil Fadhl Al-Abbas (as) and Sayeda Zainab (as)??

uh??

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In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

Why did I know it would my beloved Brother Ya Zahra who would object to my explanation.  Lovely and so amazing predictable.

Let me clarify for you my dear brother.

Hadhrat Abul Fadhl Abbas(A), was NOT born a Ma'sum.  He had a complete loyalty to the Imam(A)'s of his time, i.e. Imam Ali(A), Imam Hassan(A) and off course Imam Husayn(A).

BUT HE WAS NOT BORN MA'SUM (INFALLIBLE).

How did he attain infallibility?  

He had complete total belief in Allah, without any doubt, and he gave complete Bay'ah (allegience) to the Imam of his time, be it Imam Ali(A), Imam Hassan(A) or Imam Husayn(A).

Complete allegience.

Show me where you can find a difference apart from the passage of time, between the infallibility of Hadhrat Abbas(A), and that of Imam Khumayni(A), or Imam Khamenei(HA)?

The case is the same with Sayyedah ZaynabÚáíå ÇáÓáÇã

Have they not given complete allegience to their Imam - Imam Mahdi(AJ)?

Why don't you explain to me how you understand the infallibility of Sayyedah Zaynab(A) and Hadhrat Abbas(A)?

There is a reason why such people existed in history, it was to dispell the myths that people would create saying that we can't be like the infallibles - WE CAN - it is just a matter of belief, self purification and sincerety.

Think about this deeply.  You will know that I am correct.

If I am wrong, explain to me how I am wrong, using logical arguments.

Don't forget that I still have to give you a book - Islamic Government - and a meal at the Islamic Center, I am waiting for your Private Message.  I am sure that in person, we can clear up these issues you have with your belief.  Insha Allah.

With Salaams and Dua's

Shabbir

Shabbir

Edited By Ya Aba 3abdillah on 1034167121

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Guest YA ZAHRA

Assalaamu Alaikum

The hadith of Imam (as) says regarding Zainab (as)

"Innaha fahima ghayr mufahama, wa 3alima ghayr mu3alima"

Which means she is an intellect without being passed knowledge and a Scholar without being taught.

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