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DaSouljah

Ayatullah khameni - What did he do?

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who were also opressed by the rulers? answer: some of the imams.

so we should deal with any problems the same way they want us to.

often the imams were willing to take action that would keep the islamic state more powerful than the non muslims.

if there are any problems in iran then they should be solved; but we should never ever go against islam and the ummah.

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(salam)

Well, do you know that Qama zani (matam with a knife) is banned in Iran now??

[b:post_uid0]WHY?[/b:post_uid0]

because Agha Khamenei thinks, that it is Haram? but what about those Iranians who are following Aqai Khui, or Ayatollah Seestani or Ayatollah Imam Muhammad Shirazi??

(Ayat. Shirazi has even encouraged it)

Well, do you know that Qama zani (matam with a knife) is banned in Iran now??

WHY?

Salaam alaikum,

Imam Khomeini(ra) spoke against those practices which harm the body.  This is not just from Imam Khamene'i, several mujtahids have ruled that if these practices harm the reputation of Islam or Shias, they should not be done.  

I really don't understand how anyone can agree with this self mutilation.  I know it has become a custom of certain people, but it is an innovation and it is totally irrational.

WaSalaam, Hajar

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Guest YA ZAHRA

Salaam

Ayatollah Khomeini is a role model to many of those who thought Islam was in the dark ages. We are not in a position to say that he is an oppressor of any kind, he was a great Alim and Allah(swt) is the knower of all things. What we are however saying is that many tragedies have taken place upon our righteous Ulama and we ask the leadership of Iran to take control and be held accountable for the unislamic behaviour taking place in some corners of the government.

If no such things were to take place inside Iran to our Ulama, we would all be happy and this discussion wouldnt be happening. Unfortunetly the problem is there and all we ask is for it to be solved.

May Allah fasten the reappearance of Al-Hujjah (AJ).

Wasalaam

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(salam)

Bro. Peer Syed Sahib wrote:

Zaynab[sa] was the first person who hit her forehead to a bar inside the carriage she was in, causing considerable bleeding, when the head of al-Hussain (as) was being paraded in Kufa. Bihaar al-Anwaar; volume 45, page 114

Did Hazret Zaynab  (as) hit her forehead as a part of some ritual or was it the result of emotional trauma?

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Asalaam Alaikum,

Peer syed sahib, Well done.  We are taught in Quran to love the close kin as reward for risalat.  Hazrat Syeda Zainab(sa) loved Maula Baadshah Imam Hussain(sa) more then anyone.  Hence, if you love him, do zanjeer!

As for making us look bad, do you people profess to know more then our Imams(sa) or Zainab(sa).  the women who Allah gave the title "Untaught Scholar!".

Thats all we need to say!  No need to argue!  If you don't like it, how will you like it when you are asked to kill people in jihad?  You would never have smelled blood!

The CIA know about azadari, hence, they have put dodgy thoughts into some shias heads!

Do you think that by stopping zanjeer we will convert more sunnis?

We convert so many hindus, and I took my christian associate with me to Idara Jaaferia.  He cried and really thinks this is the truth.  In his own time will he onvert, but Alhamdullilah, he was taught to be wahabhi(up till age 8), then he changed to christianity and well now you know!

so as for your image, what image.  Your Wudu is proved via quran- you attack them!

Your fasting is in quran-attack them.  You do know you are following the truth!

our job is to explain, not to convert.  Even in this age, people see mataam and zanjeer and still convert!  

All Good Marajir have accepted it, when we went Iraq Agha Bashir Najafi(RA) and Seestani(RA) both promoted it.

Hence, next time on Ashura just before qama and zanjeer, get in the middle and say Stop this!  You are ruining my image.............lol

Wasalaam

Ya Ali Madad-Wa syed, wa Peer- you beat me to it, good Jawab/reply!

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Salams,

I think we are mixing 4 different issues togather:

-Issue of some Ulema who are considered unfavourable.

-Issue to Azadari.

-Issue of Quma, Zanjeer.

-Issue of Wilayat e Faqih.

Some brothers conclude that since Quma/Zanjeer has been banned---> this means that Ulema are against Azadari--->which means that Wilayat e Faqih is wrong--->and this means that those who are aginst it are right.

These are all seperate issues and should be discussed seperately.

Khuda Hafiz.

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thats funny ya zahra, you seem to have Syed Seestanis(ra) photo?

if you think he banned qama and zanjeer, then u are very wrong.  I have already stated, that fatwa was only for Abu Dubai/Dubai!

If he never stopped it their, then all azadari would be over by law.

Read the whole fatwa, not just bits and bobs.  Like the US resolution, read that-Iraq would never accept it!  Access, Soldiers, Security, Us special agents?

Is sadaam some [Edited Out] that he would let them in and invade him the easy way!

Ya Ali Madad

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Guest YA ZAHRA

actually its the(ra)... i thought it means "rahmat Allahi alayh". Alhamdulillah the sayyid is alive and well, May Allah prolong his life  :)

Edited By YA ZAHRA on 1033689976

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well to be honest, even when true shias die they are alive.  Declared martyrs.  Died, in the path of Allah doing Jihad Akbar!

Hence, maybe I'm wrong, I refuse to use (as) or (sa).  (sa) should be used for Imams(sa) but (as) is okey too cos in Namaz you do salaam on Allahs Saleh people...ie) (as).

Sunnis just say salaams on us....hehe

Don't worry Allah makes sunnis be a shia five times a day!  when they read Surah Fatiha, they say Ameen.

Admittedly, in 1985 we had no knowledge and we'd say that too.  But Ameen is said when duas are yet to be answered!

in surah Fatiha we have:

Keep us on the right path!

sunnis dua for it, hence, they admit that they are not on it!

it shows how 5 times a day, in there whole life they dua to become shias!

Praying is wajib, but only after you fix up you beliefs!  If you pray and reject Imams, your prays are no value!

Ya Ali Madad

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bismillah

(salam)

Brother Orion, I apologise i couldnt respond any sooner, but here in Australia we have to sleep :P in answer to your question regarding Sayed Khomeini (ra), my answer is no. Are you crazy? of course he is not an oppressor. He did what he felt would benefit the Islamic nation.

If I was to tell you that Imam Ali (as) committed an injustice, I would be a kaffir because I have just claimed that Allah (SW) is incapable in choosing just men to lead us.

But Sayed Khomeini (ra) is not perfect, and he did committ an injustice IF he placed respected scholars under house arrest without trial! May Allah (SW) reward sayed Khomeini (ra) I am not a peice of dust on his shoe, i know that. But at the same time an injustice is an injustice, but that does not make him an all out oppressor. May he rest in peace, but let us not close our eyes to injustice.

With regards to Quma, Zanjeer, those who use sayidatina Zaynab's (as) action as justification then I would disagree strongly, for she never repeated that act in consecutive years, and she is the one who began the culture of commemoration. Yeah she hit her head on the bar during the events that proceeded Karbalaa, but she never purposely repeated it the following year. So if one of you is in such a state when mourning that you commit an act without conscious knowledge of doing so, then I would say its okay, and next time you commemorate do not sit so close to sharp foreign objects.

Conclusions

- Ayatollah Khomeini was not an oppressor

- Ayatollah Khomeini was human, he was not one of the 12 Imams

- Ayatollah Khomeini led a great Islamic revolution and may Allah (SW) make Iran as close to Imam Mahdi's (ATF) government

- Follow the ruling of your marja3 on tatbeer, zanjeer, Quma but also feel free to excersice your own intellect. Just because they say you CAN do it, doesnt mean you have to.

Ali

(salam)

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Salam Alaykom,

if there are any problems in iran then they should be solved; but we should never ever go against islam and the ummah.

People are onece again using the same old narrow minded views, that if someone has a protest against the mistreatment of a scholar it is that he/she is rebelling.

It is a mere grievance we have with the oppression that is going on with the treatment of scholars.

When we read the situation that Imam Ali (as) or Imam Hasan (as) and others had to face we find that the same situations still persist. There are always doubts and confusion, rumours and true stories. You always have to look past the dust and clouds to see the true picture. The situation is never black and white.

Once again, people say it is Anti-revolutionary, anti-Iran, Anti-Islam and therefore you are a Kufr if you dare to say something about Iran.  Look, I support the revolution as much as anyone here, but when something happens, i will raise my voice, i would want something to be fixed, but unfortunately it has not.

Iran is nothing like the Imams.  The Imams (as) were infallible.  When Imam Ali (as) was leader he addressed all peoples problems, Iran is unfortunately not doing that.  

Imam Amir ul Mu'mineen Ali [a] said: "By Allah, even if I am given all the domains of the seven countries with all that exists under the skies in order that I may disobey Allah to the extent of snatching one grain of barley from an ant, I would not do it."

Nahjul-Balagha

Imam Ali (as) was always [b:post_uid0] JUST [/b:post_uid0].  Im pretty sure if he saw what he was going on with the scholars, he wouldnt like that.  No matter, even if a prisoner was mistreated, Imam Ali (as) would make sure he has his rights.  

Once again i am not against anyone.  The truth is there is a problem, and it needs to be fixed.  I am not trying to undermine as i want Iran to become the best nation in the world here, and improve in all areas.  Mashallah it has come in long way.

Brother, if that is your reply than hold your peace. At least in two cases (Shariatmadar and Montazari) everything happened during his rule.

There were more than two cases brother....  But even then, it is 2 scholars (we have a hadith thats says the death of a scholar is sadder then the sadder then the death of a community....).  Imam Ali (as) : "The greatest sin is the one that you consider to be the smallest".

Please ppl tabeer is a secondary issue.  Im am not against anyone that says its not ok, but i am against the fact that it is [b:post_uid0] illegal [/b:post_uid0] in Iran, while most scholars allow it.  I have also written in my above posts with the mistreatment of scholars who wanted to practice their reliigious rites when it comes to tatbeer.

Wassalam

Edited By Ya Ali on 1033692558

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syeda(sa) never repeated her action?

She(sa) was called to syria again!  those times were so bad, majalis was not as free as today!

Besides remember that sahabhi who broke all his teeth:  Wasi Qarni(RA).  He heard about Uhud and knew that Pagambum(saws) had 2 teeth shaheed.

Wasi Qarni(ra) broke two, then thought these might not be the right ones.  Then two more, until he had no teeth!

Rasool(saws) gave him the name Lover of Rasool(saws) or Parwana of Rasool(saws).

Anyhow, his title was from Allah.

Hence, if you bleed for love of Hussain(sa) to imitate how many swords/stones/arrows/spears/sticks/shields/lances/hands

hit Maula(sa), then you are being Lovers of Hussain(sa).

I need comment no more!  I can give you so many more example via Prophets and so on!  so don't say right or wrong if you feel it is.  Just ask your marjah, be patience and walk out early or become abu hanifa!

Ya Ali Madad

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salaam alaykum

i quote an ex-sunni. Muhammad Tijani al-Samawi

http://al-islam.org/real/44.htm

[b:post_uid0]"As for self-flagellation, it is not one of the doctrines of the Shi`as, nor is it a part of their creed. Rather, it is what some commoners do, and Shi`as are not the only ones who practice it. There are some Sunnis, particularly those who follow the [sufi] Aysawi tareeqa, which is well known throughout all of north Africa, who practice rituals more damaging to Islam's image than what some Shi`as do. Yet by practicing them they do not express their grief for the tragedy that befell Imam al-Husayn, nor for the suffering of Ahl al-Bayt, peace be upon them.  

We agree with the author's statement in his book in this regard, and we would like to work with him to remove this phenomenon from all Muslim lands. There are many sincere Shi`a scholars who prohibit such an abomination and try hard to put an end to it, as al-Musawi himself admits.  "[/b:post_uid0]

you may say that he is not a marja but he is more knowledgable than us.

being against zanjeer is not the same as being against azadari. we are not against maatam or the mourning ceremonies.

is the tooth breaking hadith sahih?

did the imams do zanjeer? could you imagine these pious people doing zanjeer??

human beings like to go to extremes, where even violence is glamorised. look at how so many people enjoy knife slashing thriller films. in the same way zanjeer gives a strange atmosphere to the ceremonies. the enjoyment of such an atmosphere does not necessarly make ti a good thing.

it makes people feel good because some people consider it to be an act of bravery.others in their ignorance believe that it is an act of giving whereby the pain and loss sufered is confused and associated with the pain and loss of doing a good action. but how are you helping your imam by doing this? some people believ that it makes them ralate to the pains of ashura.

mourning is good. but i dont think that this is normally an act of mourning but a ritual that may sometimes assist mourning and it may symbolise our grief, it may show how much we feel about the event. however cant we mourn without it? and be much better in spreading our message to those who dont know us very well?

if the event ment a lot to us then we should try to become better muslims, because that is what the imam wanted. did zanjeer make people better muslims??

there is nothing wrong with holding the mourning ceromonies without zanjeer. infact it would be better. apart from ading a bit of extravegence, zanjeer does not have any practical benefit. all it does is give us a bad name. it make us look like a bunch of foolish barbarians. so we shouldnt do it in front of non shia in public. ayatullah khamenei needs to give the nation a good name, he has to try his best and i dont think having people cut themselves up and make blood fly around is very good for out reputation. the americans would love it; they would tell their people "look at the violent barbaric muslims".  so that is why the nation has been prohibited to do such things in public.

so if you want to do it in your beedroom then its up to you. i cant see how it helps, i think you would be better off reading a book or helping the poor during that time.

it doesnt seem like a spiritual act.

there is a lot more to say but i might leave that for another time.

the harms out weigh the benefits.

Edited By Muhammed Ali on 1033696839

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Define mutilation....

Because isn't Tattooing a form of mutilation as well? What about piercing the ears?

There are many other things that also hurt the repuation of Islam as well. Not just Zanjeer Matam.

Since was all innovation wrong? There many other forms of innovation in Shi'i Islam....

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

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[b:post_uid0]EVERYONE STOP!!![/b:post_uid0]

My head is spinning. How many different things are we talking about?! Have we even answered the original question? Jeez. :) Start a new thread guys!

Hajar, I wasn't clear with my innovation statement. Did Khamenai make zanjeer Haram or did he just ban it? There's a difference. But don't answer it here. There's way too much going on here.

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

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Salam Alaykom,

I agree with Dhulfiqar.   The issue is not Tatbeer, it is the mistreatment of scholars.

you may say that he is not a marja but he is more knowledgable than us.

being against zanjeer is not the same as being against azadari. we are not against maatam or the mourning ceremonies.

Yes he is more knowledgeable than us and so are the following marjei who allow it:

Ayatullah Syed Ali Seestani

Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid al-Kho’i

The former leader of the Hawzah of the holy city of Najaf.

al-Sheikh Abdul Kareem al-Ha’ery

The Founder of the current Hawzah in the holy city of Qum.

Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Sheikh Muhammad al-Araki,

Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad Ridha al-Gulpaygani,

Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Shahab-el-Deen al-Mar’ashi al-Najafi,

Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Hassan al-Tabataba’e al-Qummi, he was also put under house arrest

Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad al-Waheedi,

Al-Imam al-Sheikh Muhammad Hussain al-Naa’ini,

The teacher of the Maraje’ of the holy city of Najaf.

Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Mohsen al-Hakim,

Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad Kaadhem al-Shari’atMadari,  

Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Abd-el-A’la al-Sabzewary

Ayatollah Khorasani

Grand Ayatollah Langaroudi

Grand Ayatollah Behjat

Grand Ayatollah Safi Gulpaygani

Grand Ayatollah Mirza Jawad Tabrizi

Grand Ayatollah Muhammad Sadiq Rouhani

Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Sadiq Shirazi

Ayatollah al-Udhma Abtahi

Grand Ayatollah Muhammad Shirazi.

There are hadith from the Prophet saying we shouldn't scratch our faces or tear our clothing during mourning.

Yes when it comes to our family members etc, then we do not do that.  But the Imams are in a different position.  Why do you beat you chest?  I also remind you of the companion who took out his teeth and also Zeinab.  There is a natural attachment to the holy Imams, and when we hear of their stories, it is unbearable.  Id just like to point out when Syed Khoemeini (ra), the leader of the Islamic Revolution passed away from natural death, people where in the streets, millions, hitting their heads, faces and chests with mourning.  

Well, this is Imam Hussein (as), who died not of a natural death, but of a brutal massacre along with many holy souls.    Therefore it is natural.

is the tooth breaking hadith sahih?

did the imams do zanjeer? could you imagine these pious people doing zanjeer??

Yes the story is sahih.  Alot of pious people also do zanjeer.  THE ISSUE IS NOT TATBEER.  I do not care if a person says it is haram so we may look better in front of the west etc, this is their opinion.  The problem is when scholars and their followers are not allowed to carry out what they think is allowed and also mustahab.  

The issue is not whether Tatber is right or wrong, since many scholars allow it.  It is the fact that the law in Iran does not allow the viewpoints of many scholars to put upheld.

As i have said before Ayatollah Sayed Mohammed Sadeq Rouhani, has also been held under house arrest in Qom for more than 12 years came under pressure from the authorities in mid-1995 after he wrote an open letter to President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, in which he criticized restrictions on traditional religious rites during the mourning period of Ashura; and human rights violations against those who participated in such rites, including arrests and imprisonment of large numbers of people; and the exile, beatings, and reported killings of some.

Marjei have therefore raised their concerns about the restrictions on them carrying out their rights, which nearly the majority of scholars allow it.

The point is that oppression also occurs when people cannot carry out their religious rites, in which many scholars agree to.  Tatbeer in it being wrong/right is a secondary issue.

Wassalam

Edited By Ya Ali on 1033714136

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Salam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

Ya ali

people where in the streets, millions, hitting their heads, faces and chests with mourning.

I don't know where you get your info but I think you're making a wrong statement.  Mourning...okay, hitting their heads and faces, I don't know why you're even saying this, were you in Iran at the time? I strongly DOUBT that MILLIONS of people did what you are saying.  Even if a few people did do it, this is an outrageous statement.

The marja that you are talking about it, all of them that I have read about ( in your post ) that have allowed zanjeer or whatever you want to call it, only to a certain degree, there's a limit, and they have only answered this way given certain assumptions made by the questions posed! and for it being mustahab?  I don't think the majority of the scholars say it's mustahab.  

Like sage imam reza said, you want to practise zanjeer do it in your own home.  I'm not against what you're saying about oppression of scholars, I don't think that they should be oppressed, but I think the grounds in which you speak are off bounds.  

People in Canada are not allowed to walk outside in an obscene manner, would you say that people in canada are oppressed?

I think the majority of the scholars agree with Khameni too, otherwise he wouldn't be the most highly respected.  He wouldn't be in charge.

Edited By Mujahid on 1033720269

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Neither the Prophet(pbuh&hp), nor the Imams did this, or showed approval for it.  If it was something we should do, wouldn't the last 9 Imams have done it?   How many of our mujtahids have you seen doing it?  Wouldn't they be the first in line if it were a noble action?  There are hadith from the Prophet saying we shouldn't scratch our faces or tear our clothing during mourning.  So how can we slice up our heads and backs?  

I agree with sis Hajar, and I think this sub-topic has already been discussed long time ago.

salam.

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(salam)

Bro. Peer Syed Sahib wrote:

Zaynab[sa] was the first person who hit her forehead to a bar inside the carriage she was in, causing considerable bleeding, when the head of al-Hussain (as) was being paraded in Kufa. Bihaar al-Anwaar; volume 45, page 114

Did Hazret Zaynab  (as) hit her forehead as a part of some ritual or was it the result of emotional trauma?

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Salam alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu,

Bro peer syed sahib, this topic has already been discussed before in a different thread.  

Also, no one has showed that khui or seestani encouraged these acts.  Bro Ya Ali, posted that khui said "most probably" most probably that you could get rewards, because of the intentions for sympathy of ahlul-bayt (as).   Seestani didn't say a thing about it being mustahab ( in bro Ya Ali's post ).

About it being encouraged, there's no proof that these ayatollah's encouraged this.  They answered the questions based on the assumptions imposed by the questioner, you have taken their answers and stretched them to co-inside with your own satisfactoral opinion.  Please don't make claims that are not entirely known of.

And leave this topic for it's proper thread.  Please,

Thank you

salam

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(salam)

The marja that you are talking about it, all of them that I have read about ( in your post ) that have allowed zanjeer or whatever you want to call it, [b:post_uid1]only to a certain degree, there's a limit, and they have only answered this way given certain assumptions made by the questions posed! and for it being mustahab?  I don't think the majority of the scholars say it's mustahab.[/b:post_uid1]

Like sage imam reza said, you want to practise zanjeer do it in your own home.  

There is no objection to Qama-Zani in its own right.

(Fatwa of Ayatollah al-Udhma Mirza Jawad Tabrizi (may Allah Almighty protect him)

------------

To do Qama-Zani is a very good act indeed, and to [b:post_uid1]perform Qama-Zani in public enhances the excellence of this act, and if one is harmed in the process, the reward (Thawab) for this act will be increased even further. [/b:post_uid1]

One of the things that I regret not doing is that I did not have the honour to perform this great practice, and now that I am old and frail, I am unable to perform it.

In any case, from all the people who have had the honour to perform this religious symbol I wish to ask them to pray for me after performing Qama-Zani.

(Fatwa of Ayatollah al-Udhma Muhammad Sadiq Rouhani (may Allah Almighty protect him)

-------------

Salaam upon the Lovers of Imam Hussain

In our opinion since Aba-Abdillah al-Hussain alayhis-salam is Thar-Allah, the Blood of Allah, then it would be appropriate, but in fact imperative that for the Blood of Allah, the blood of the creatures of Allah is shed. Therefore not only Qama-Zani is permissible, but it is also regarded as one of the Sha'a'er and it has great, and extensive Thawab (reward).

It is honour and good for the Hussaini Lovers who participate in this beautiful and honourable act, since Qama-Zani is one of the Sha'a'er.

[b:post_uid1]Needless to say that to practice this Sha'a'er in public is better. [/b:post_uid1]

Salaam be upon the Righteous Lovers (of Imam Hussain) and upon all the Righteous servants of Allah.

(Fatwa of Ayatollah al-Udhma Langaroudi (may Allah Almighty protect him)

---------

Fatwa of Ayatollah al-Udhma Sayyid Sadiq Shirazi (may Allah Almighty protect him)

Bismillah al-Rahman al-Rahim

[b:post_uid1]To perform Qama-Zani, whether in secret or in public,[/b:post_uid1] and other kinds of Azadari for Sayyid al-Shuhada Aba-Abdillah al-Hussain - may my soul be his sacrifice and peace and blessings of Allah be upon him - brings about the pleasure of Allah Almighty as well as Imam Mahdi - may Allah hasten his reappearance - InSha'Allah.

{And he who glorifies the Sha'a'er of Allah, surely it is from the piety of the hearts.} [The Holy Qur'an: Ayah 32 of Surah al-Hajj].

Just a few fatawas :)

ma salama

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Funny how Seestani and Khui are not even mentioned there :)  ....

Only 2 of them have mentioned the shedding of blood, but neither of them speak of it's limits.  And there are MANY scholars in Iran, who have agreed that it should be banned.  That's a MAJORITY :)

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Funny how Seestani and Khui are not even mentioned there :)  ....

Only 2 of them have mentioned the shedding of blood, but neither of them speak of it's limits.  And there are MANY scholars in Iran, who have agreed that it should be banned.  That's a MAJORITY :)

(salam)

[b:post_uid1]According to the fatwa of Ayatollah Araki,Ayatollah Khoei,Ayatollah Seestani[/b:post_uid1],Ayatollah Gulpaygani...the Zanjeer matam is allowed as far as there is no fear of loss of life.

Reference

Doesnt matter what the majority says :) bro. we dont follow the majority, you know it...

My question is simple: WHY IS IT NOT ALLOWED TO FOLLOW THE RULINGS OF OTHER AYATOLLAHS IN IRAN, such as Ayatollah Khui, Golpaygani, Seestani, Shirani, Jawad Tabrizi....etc etc

and yeah one more thing, I have the sealed Fatawas of 9 Grand Ayatollahs of Qum on this matter :)

and see they have encouraged it? did they?? just read them carefully....tell me onething...are all these ayatollahs illetrate ??? they dont know how to issue the fatwa ??

ma salama

Edited By Peer Syed Sahib on 1033730484

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Your reference link leads to the Ahmadiyyah Movement community website.  LOL what for? i have no clue.

You ARE ALLOWED to follow the rulings of other ayatollah's in Iran.  The rulings that you have mentioned are rulings that are not in the context of the islamic nations best interests.  ie. what's best for Islam, what I mean is that they are not made in regards to the present situation, or to a specific situation.  They are simply answers in general to the practise.  And No you are wrong, the majority of scholars in Iran have agreed that it should be banned.  

You are giving me a link to the Ahmadiyyah Movement, a group that believes their mahdi/saviour/prophet is an indian guy that recently passed away.  LOL Nice references...sealed LOL  Bro look at your link

Okey I believe I have found the problem to your link, you were missing a dash inbetween al-islam.org.  Anyways I did read it:

However, Ayat. Gulpaygani states that it is better to avoid this

practise based on precaution (ihtiyat)

For instance, around mid 1920's Sayyid Abu-l-Hasan Isfahani

in Najaf and Sayyid Muhammad Qazwini in Basra issued legal opinions

against this practise.

Bro that reference does not say much, infact it sides with the verdicts by ayatollah fadhlullah and Khameni that it should be banned.  Once again, the ones that say it is allowable have said this for certain situations ( conditions ), and with limits.

Nobody argues that the commemoration and memory of Imam Hussain (as) must not be preserved and kept alive.

Edited By Mujahid on 1033727219

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In His Name, the Most High

Salaams

Someone - I think it was Ya Zahra or whoever, mentioned that Ayatullah Seestani's opinion on Wilayat al-Faqih means that every Mujtahed has the right to be Wilayat al-Faqih.

While this is possible, though potentially chaotic, I have a simple question.

You have Marja A and Marja B, both decide that they are the Wali Amr - immediately you have a problem.

The Ummah has two leaders.

The end result is chaos.

Therefore with all due respect to Sayyed Seestani, (and personally I doubt that this understanding of Wilayat al-Faqih is valid for Sayyed Seestani, I don't believe that he says this or believes this, but it seems people who have very little respect for him attribute this insane statement to him), this concept of Wilayat al-Faqih is flawed.

Wilayat al-Faqih is an extention of Imamate in the absence of our beloved Imam al-Mahdi(AJ) and as such it is a very simple concept to grasp.

In the time of the visibility of an Imam, i.e. until the commcencement of the Ghaybat as-Sughra of Imam al-Mahdi(AJ), he was the available Imam, why was it that in the time of Ghaybat as-Sughra, that 4 separate naib's (representatives) were nominated, in an order that at any given time only ONE representative of Imam Mahdi(AJ) would be available in his capacity as the representative?  

To prevent chaos and confusion.  To prevent the system from being taken advantage of by insincere politically motivated individuals.

This is simple.  Why does a country have a single Prime Minister, or President?  Why does a business have a single Chief Executive Officer?  Why do we have ONE God?  Why was only ONE Imam Ma'sum (infallible Imam) an Imam at any given time.

When Shimr, and other criminals came to Imam Husayn(A) during the time of the Imamate of Imam Hassan(A), did Imam Husayn(A) entertain their issues, or did he ask them to refer to the Imam of their time - i.e. Imam Hasan(A)?

Granted, in our time today, we have a living Imam, Imam al-Mahdi(May our souls be his ransom), but Imam al-Mahdi(AJ), is behind the veil of occultation, and we are not able to visit him directly and he is not available directly for us.  This is a problem, since he cannot interfere and/or assist with issues directly.

Therefore, in his absence, we need a system that can work on his behalf and return the power to him and also provide a situation condusive to his return.  As we know - Imam al-Mahdi(AJ) is the Awaiting (al-Muntadhar) as well as the Awaited (al-Muntadhir), he is awaiting the time when the believers are strong enough, and Allah allows him to return, and he is aware of what we do - he is aware of the fitneh that we create in the name of "oppression of ulema" - he is aware of the slanderous statements made against ulema - and he is aware of ulema who conspire with the enemies of Allah to "liberate" their lands (i.e. Iraq, Palestine).

In this tragic situation, we have been blessed, following years of reciting and supplicating with an honoured government, whereby Islam and her people are honoured and given their dignity, and hypocricy and her people are rendered impotent and humiliated, and a situation where if Imam al-Mahdi(AJ) were to appear today (insha Allah ta'aala), then he could take the riegns of power.

Now onto the current situation - now that we have some background - firstly, anyone who is against the system of Wilayat al-Faqih is an enemy of Imam Mahdi(AJ).  There are those - the Hujjatiyyeh - who say that we should do nothing and wait for Imam Mahdi(AJ) to return and that he will do everything - but they are mistaken.

In the Quran, Allah says that he will not change the position of a people until they change themselves.  If we sit and wait - and do nothing till Imam Mahdi(AJ) returns, then the chances are that the same fate will await Imam Mahdi(AJ) as happened to Imam al-Askari(AJ) his father, and the other ImamÚáíå ÇáÓáÇãs.

We need to think more clearly and be more intelligent.  If we get an Islamic System together, and move towards Allah - provide dignity to the believers, and protect the mustadhafeen (oppressed on the land), then what is wrong with this?  Is this not part of our Islamic duty to do Amr bil Ma'rouf (Enjoining the good) and Nahi Anil Munkar (Forbidding the evil)?

The system of Wilayat al-Faqih gives us a SINGLE leader, who is protected by the council of experts - a single leader who DID NOT nominate himself, and has no personal ambitions - unlike some people who declare themselves marja without any authority, they are known and names need not be utilized here -  then what is the problem?

If there are ulema under house arrest - and this is a lie anyways - but assume there are for arguments sake and to humour some of the more brainwashed amongst us here - we must think why is this the case?

If they are against the Islam Government and against the system of Wilayah, then is it not fair to say - that regardless of the size of turban or the amount of knowledge - a certain personal ambition has kicked in as well as a total lack of understanding and sincerety with regard to Allah and Imam Mahdi(AJ).

How?

Simple, if there is a problem that an alem has with the government, he should taken it up with the government, do not give me the lies that the government doesnt listen - IT DOES, PROOVE TO ME THAT IT DOESNT - the Wilayah does listen to every question and every criticism.  Imam Khamenei(HA) has said that criticise the government but do it responsibily and in a manner so as not to provide ammunition to the enemies of Allah.

Just think a little deeply and go further than the tip of your noses.

This is enough for now - hopefully this discussion will cease and desist - or further action WILL be taken.

There are people who will not tolerate the constant bickering against our ulema and name calling of the Wali Amr, or insults against him.  

Shiachat has been warned.

With Salaams and Dua's

Shabbir

Edited By Ya Aba 3abdillah on 1033738563

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(salam)

Sorry, bro. yeah it was my mistake to put that dash between al and islam....I am sorry for the mistake, and have corrected it now...sorry again..

and second thing brother, I think you haven't read my previous post carefully, please read it...Ayatollahs have encouraged it, they have asked to pray for them after doing this, and they have said to do it in public...u can read my previous post, and if it is not good for the Islamic image then they must have thought it....why did they give this fatawa then?? secondly brother, 9 Maraji' Taqleed from QUM, declared these fatawas at Ashura.

please read that post carefully.

ma salama

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Guest YA ZAHRA

Assalaamu Alaikum

Bro you need to read the concept of Wilayat Al-Faqih more closely.

1. It is not Marja A and Marja B etc, infact it is no marji3, it is faqih. Therefore the leader need not be a marji3 when he takes charge, much like Ayatollah Khamenei, whose Marji3iya started after Ayatollah Khomeini passed away.

2. In the concept provided to us by Ayatollah Khomeini's will and also what is mentioned in Ayatollah Monterzari's work (approved by Ayatollah Khomeini), it says that it in not a singular entity but rather one if all the attributes are contained in him, or 3 or 7 i think. (i need to recheck the numbers, but my point stands that it is not a concept maintained on the leader being only one).

3. The fatwa of Ayatollah Seestani is very clear if u return to the will of the Imam of our time, Al-Hujjat ibn Al-Hassan (AJ), when he says Follow those of knowledge after me for they are my evidence upon you and i am the evidence of Allah.

Could u likewise produce a reference from Ahlulbayt (as) regarding Wilyat Al-Faqh in this manner?

Wasalaam

P.S using my personal name is personal and uncalled for, i would have thought better of u. :nono:

Edited By YA ZAHRA on 1033741917

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(salam)

First off, Imam Khamenei (HA) did not ban zanjeer.  He rightfully banned the ritual of ghameh zani.  He points out that it [i:post_uid1]"...gives the impression that Shiite Moslems are superstitious and irrational..."[/i:post_uid1].  

As for Ayatollah Seestani's (HA) statement that every mujtahid had a right to be velayat-e-faqih, let's anaylze this for a minute.  Does he mean that every mujtahid should simutaneously be VF or does he mean that all mujtahideen, by virtue of their learning and scholarship, are qualified to assume the position of VF if the need arises?  This is not much different from what most olema say.  Imam Khomeini (SA) added the condition that VF in addition to being a mujtahid should also possess leadership skills (which is one of the reasons Montazeri was removed).

Also, Ayatollah Seestani does not oppose VF as some people would have you believe.  Recently he said he prays for the leader of the Islamic revolution.

VF and marjayet are not two separate functions nor is the former a new innovation.  Political and administrative leadership, in an Islamic government, is the right of a just faqih.  It's only after the revolution that the olema have had the opportunity to exercise their political duties, which had been usurped for 14 centuries.

Edited By Ali786 on 1033739217

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Guest YA ZAHRA

Also, Ayatollah Seestani does not oppose VF as some people would have you believe.  Recently he said he prays for the leader of the Islamic revolution.

Being opposed to the concept and praying for the sayyid are two completely different things. Ayatollah Seestani on numerous occasions has prayed for the Shia in Iran and for the Revolution to carryon. The definitions of Wilayat Al-Faqih they differ upon. Even Ayatollah Shirazi believes in a form of Wilayat Al-Faqih, its just different from what is in Iran today.

Wasalaam

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(salam)

First off, Imam Khamenei (HA) did not ban zanjeer.  He rightfully banned the ritual of ghameh zani.  He points out that it "...gives the impression that Shiite Moslems are superstitious and irrational...".  

We're not talking about Zanjeer here :)

and secondly, We know what he thinks thats the reason he banned it...

But the thing is that why is he imposing on others to follow this fatawa?? why cant one follow any other marji' who has allowed and encourages Qama zani ??

I have stated the clear fatwas u can read them :)

ma salama

Edited By Peer Syed Sahib on 1033740879

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But the thing is that why is he imposing on others to follow this fatawa??

The whole system is running on fatwas. If they dont apply a universal "code" how can the government run?

Also the parliament passes the laws, after that they are screened by a panel of Jurists and Law experts to make sure it is not un-Islamic.

Now the question is, Is there any law in the Iranian penel code that prohibits Janjeer? Or is it something that the people decided not to do because they just love (or follow) the leader?

Was-Salam.

Edited By Orion on 1033744261

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(salam)

Well, I dont know how can you say this..

Also sis Hajar mentioned above that Khameni has even said that people in Iran can follow others ..

But I dont know how can they follow others, if they are restricting and banning their fatwas in Iran?

Question is simple and still there...please be clear, and think it..and then please reply..

WHY IS IT NOT ALLOWED IN IRAN TO FOLLOW ANY OTHER MARJI' (in the sense that they aren't allowed to practise their verdicts)..

Now, to get the list of Other marji' s please scroll up/back and see the previous posts...

ma salama

Edited By Peer Syed Sahib on 1033744391

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