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Hannibal

Ya Ali Madad instead of Salam Alaikum ?

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(bismillah)

(salam)

I read a lot of misunderstandings about Pakistani-Indian Shias. There are a lot of Pakistani Maulanas (scholars) who have received formal education in Najaf (Iraq) and Qom (Iran). Similarly most books available in Shia bookstores in Pakistan are translations of books from Iran and Iraq.

What you see here on this board some Pakistani members expressing their different beliefs is not a true reflection of most Pakistani Shias. Most Pakistani-Indin Shias have beliefs same as their Farsi or Arab brothern. E.g. Most Pakistani (Shia and Sunni) say (salam) and not "Ya Ali (as) Madad" as greeting. Also one has to differenciate between Zakirs (Recitors of Majlis) and true Scholars. At times we find Zakirs who are not true Scholars.

There are some differences in some rituals from area to area (even within Pakistan) but all in all most Shia Arab-Irani-Pakistani-India are the same.

WS

Edited by Orion

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(bismillah)

I appreciate what brother Salmany posted, but it still didn't answer my question regarding these stories originating in Iraq. The hadeeth from Usol Alkafi by Mawlana Alkulayni is true, but it doesn't say anything about Iraq being the land of Fabrication. Once again, with all do respect to Ayatullah Mutahari, i don't see how he can claim this to be true. What i find interesting in all of this is that Najaf and Karbala are the locations of where these stories began :rolleyes: , yet you hear no such stories from those two holy areas. But on the contrary, everyone here is agreeing that the indian subcontinent is where these stories are originating since they are mixing history with their culture.

Now is it possible that these stories started in Iraq, and then died out, it's possible, but where is the proof that it started there to begin with? And who originated such stories?

(salam)

Sallam u Alaikum

Dear Sister why did they originate?

Well its simple, they originated because of these wailers and beaters and how the people who held these majlises felt the need to "compete" with one another to see who can make the people "cry" the most. When you come to think of it, its actually pretty sad.

Now you say that you have never heard this in Iran or IRaq, but what does that have to do with anything? It doesnt really matter if you personally heard it. We have a great Alim who has, and who feels it is a duty for not only himself but the whole Ulema to set things straight. I have given you an example of how these things actually start circulating in my previous post.

Mutahiri states:

During the nights of the Eid of Ghadir, Dr. Shariati delivered an excellent lecture on this general human tendency for hero-worship and making of myths and legends, turning historic figures into legendary heroes with extraordinary and superhuman characteristics

Also

I heard it from the marhum Ayatullah Sadr, may God elevate his station, that Taj Nayshaburi would say absurd things from the minbar. Someone objected to him, saying, "What are these things that you say? You receive such big audiences, why don't you say some sensible things?" He replied that the people did not deserve it. Then he produced, so to speak, a 'proof' to substantiate his assertion.

Remember sis:

And among them are the illiterate folks who know not the Book but only vain hopes and nothing but conjectures. (2:78)

A story about Iranian Distortions:

There is another thing which is quite popular especially amongst us Iranians. We refer to the Fourth Imam (a) as "Imam Zayn al-'Abidin-e Bimar" (i.e. the sick one). In no language do we ever come across the epithet bimar along with the name of Imam Zayn al-'Abidin. Such an epithet does not exist in Arabic. He has a number of appellations, one of which is al-Sajjad (i.e. one who prostrates a lot), another is Dhu al-Thafanat (i.e. one who has callouses on his forehead, due to prostrations). Do you find any book in Arabic that may contain an epithet synonymous with the word bimar for the Imam? Imam Zayn al-'Abidin (a) was only ill during the days of the episode of 'Ashura (perhaps it was an act of providence meant to save the Imam's life and to preserve the progeny of Imam Husayn) and this very illness saved his life. Several times they wanted to kill the Imam, but as he was seriously ill, they would leave him saying, Innahu li-ma bih ( Bihar al-anwar, vol. 45, p. 61; A'lam al-wara, p. 246; ash-Shaykh al-Mufid, al-Irshad, p. 242) i.e., Why should we kill him. He is himself dying. Who in the world has not fallen ill at some time or another during his life? Apart from this instance of his illness, see if you can find any other reference stating that Imam Zayn al-'Abidin was sick. But we have pictured Imam Zayn al-'Abidin as someone chronically ill, pale faced, suffering from fever and as someone bent with weakness and always carrying a walking stick and someone who moans as he walks ! 

Sallam

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These "wailers" and "beaters" that sadden you, sadly, have more iman in one sad pinky, than all the sad Ahlu Sunnah does for an eternity of sadness.

You, salmany, fail to mention any innovations done by Sunnis.

Shi'as compromise 17% of Pakistan, and look what they come up with.

Now, let's see what the Sunni brothers have done in the name of Islam. :D

Bros' and Sis' be wary and critical when listening to a Sunni tell us about how Shi'as worship, as they try (and try) to cause divisions between us.

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These "wailers" and "beaters" that sadden you, sadly, have more iman in one sad pinky, than all the sad Ahlu Sunnah does for an eternity of sadness.

You, salmany, fail to mention any innovations done by Sunnis.

Shi'as compromise 17% of Pakistan, and look what they come up with.

Now, let's see what the Sunni brothers have done in the name of Islam.  :D

Bros' and Sis' be wary and critical when listening to a Sunni tell us about how Shi'as worship, as they try (and try) to cause divisions between us.

Sallam

Save this for another topic. Im sure Ayatullah Mutahiri knows more then you about these wailers and beaters. This topic was started by brother Hizbullahi and not me. Also, i have very explicitly said majority of this happens in Iraq or Iran.

Sallam

Edited by salmany

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Salam Alaikum

Aghaji, I doubt anybody, at least any Shia here, is disputing with the fact that calling upon Ali (A) is of course beneficial and are not disputing whether he can intercede or not. We all believe all the Masoomeen (A) are the interceders for us to Allah SWT. We also fully support on calling Imam Ali (A) to help us in our needs, and we ahve no objection in saluting each other with such a dua in order to invoke the help of Imam Ali (A) for each other.

The issue is how many Shias REPLACE "Salam Alaikum..." with "Ya Ali Madad". If the intention is not to replace it, then there is no problem, but I have spoken to many Pakistani Shias who explicitly informed me that their "Ya Ali Madad" is a replacement for "Salam Alaikum", and all this in the dhidd of the rest of Muslims. They also openly admit that this is a kind of test to see each other's iman. Its THIS thats the issue here.

Brother Salmany, about the story that you mentioned of Imam Ali (A) asking for water and Hazrat Abbas (A) falling, you have made an assumption that this happened when Imam Ali (A) was the head of the Islamic state. I think thats a big assumption to make, as Imam Ali (A) gave many khutbas before this time. Its too big an assumption to throw this hadeeth out the window.

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Salam Alaikum

Aghaji, I doubt anybody, at least any Shia here, is disputing with the fact that calling upon Ali (A) is of course beneficial and are not disputing whether he can intercede or not. We all believe all the Masoomeen (A) are the interceders for us to Allah SWT. We also fully support on calling Imam Ali (A) to help us in our needs, and we ahve no objection in saluting each other with such a dua in order to invoke the help of Imam Ali (A) for each other.

The issue is how many Shias REPLACE "Salam Alaikum..." with "Ya Ali Madad". If the intention is not to replace it, then there is no problem, but I have spoken to many Pakistani Shias who explicitly informed me that their "Ya Ali Madad" is a replacement for "Salam Alaikum", and all this in the dhidd of the rest of Muslims. They also openly admit that this is a kind of test to see each other's iman. Its THIS thats the issue here.

Brother Salmany, about the story that you mentioned of Imam Ali (A) asking for water and Hazrat Abbas (A) falling, you have made an assumption that this happened when Imam Ali (A) was the head of the Islamic state. I think thats a big assumption to make, as Imam Ali (A) gave many khutbas before this time. Its too big an assumption to throw this hadeeth out the window.

Sallam

Bro i have not assumed. If you wish to say, it was the Ayatullah who assumed.

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(bismillah)

My question is still unanswered, i don't know frim where is ayatullah Mutahari is geting this from, but i don't think the Holy Land of Imam Ali would produce such stories and lies, espacialy since those who live there don't narrarate such stories.

So i still hold my opinion that this must of started else where. And another good question that is not answered is regarding why scholars in the indian subcontinent don't show these reciters the error they're making

P.S.

More power to those wailers and beaters, may Allah give them more strength and Iman!

(salam)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

The issue is how many Shias REPLACE "Salam Alaikum..." with "Ya Ali Madad". If the intention is not to replace it, then there is no problem, but I have spoken to many Pakistani Shias who explicitly informed me that their "Ya Ali Madad" is a replacement for "Salam Alaikum", and all this in the dhidd of the rest of Muslims. They also openly admit that this is a kind of test to see each other's iman. Its THIS thats the issue here

This is what I'm talking about. One more weird thing, I never saw rasulallah(saaw) or imams(sa) saying "ya ali madad" instead of (salam) .

I think some of our brothers should at least admit what they are doing is bidah, I mean even Omar ibn al khattab would admit it in public when he did a bidah..

(salam)

Hezbullahi

Edited by Hezbullahi

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...And another good question that is not answered is regarding why scholars in the indian subcontinent don't show these reciters the error they're making

Salam Alaikum

There are a few who do so, some publicly, some not so publicly. The problem is that those stories are appealing to the audience because it makes them cry more. Then an Alim comes along and says those stories are true. Believe me, they dont take it in too well. In fact, those Ulama are then insulted by those zakirs who narrate those stories, which most of the audience enjoys, and then those Ulama are then isolated and called 'Dhakkoo wala' and a 'Wahhabi Shia' and an 'enemy of Azadari', etc.

A very sad situation. :(

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Bro i have not assumed. If you wish to say, it was the Ayatullah who assumed.

It was the Ayatullah who stated his opinion. Many times some of his arguments have been refuted and stated possible. But he is entitled to his ijtihad and they theirs :)

P.S. Translation is not all that good of Shaheed Muttahiri's book. He never uses the word lie in the Farsi originals, but in english lie has been used frequently. Shaheed has used the word 'improbable'.

Edited by YouthOfAli

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(bismillah)

My question is still unanswered, i don't know frim where is ayatullah Mutahari is geting this from, but i don't think the Holy Land of Imam Ali would produce such stories and lies, espacialy since those who live there don't narrarate such stories.

So i still hold my opinion that this must of started else where. And another good question that is not answered is regarding why scholars in the indian subcontinent don't show these reciters the error they're making

P.S.

More power to those wailers and beaters, may Allah give them more strength and Iman!

(salam)

Sallam

These are tales that Mutahiri himself heard and tales that Hajji Nuri himself heard.

I dont beleive you should find it odd that just because its iraq such stories cannot be spread. Look at mecca and medina.

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(bismillah)

You bring a good point Bro Salmany, but my objection is not that its coming from Najaf and Karbala, but my objection comes when i listen to so many reciters from these holy places, and they don't recite these stories you posted.

Thats all my objection. Today at the Hussainya, I asked the Sheikh about these stories, and he said that he never heared of such things. He studied in Najaf, and then he went to Qum.

(salam)

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(bismillah)

You bring a good point Bro Salmany, but my objection is not that its coming from Najaf and Karbala, but my objection comes when i listen to so many reciters from these holy places, and they don't recite these stories you posted.

Thats all my objection. Today at the Hussainya, I asked the Sheikh about these stories, and he said that he never heared of such things. He studied in Najaf, and then he went to Qum.

(salam)

Sallam

Sister he may not have. But Iran is not just based on Qum and Iraq is not solely based on Karbala. Now sister, if Hajji Nuri heard these tales then who are we to say he didnt? Just because we have heard a few lectures and majlises that do not contain such garbage? We cnat say the ayatullah and hajji Nuri based a book on thing they themselves did not rea dor experience. That would be questioning their credibilty.

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(bismillah)

See brother, you said based on Sayed Nuris and ayatullah Mutahari testomonies that they heared it from Karbala and Najaf, and now you say that Iraq and Iran are not just Najaf and Karbala. Thats my point, these holy places would never be the heart of a rumer since our scholars there would never allow such stories to spread. And i don't hear couple of Majlis yearly, i listen to Majalis on a daily basis, so i know what i'm saying.

Now since Ayatullah Mutahari heared it, then i wonder where are our other scholars not condemning such stories that obviously show flaws? Thats why i don't take these stories or testomonies at face value, i don't follow scholars blindly (with all do respect).

(salam)

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(bismillah)

See brother, you said based on Sayed Nuris and ayatullah Mutahari testomonies that they heared it from Karbala and Najaf, and now you say that Iraq and Iran are not just Najaf and Karbala. Thats my point, these holy places would never be the heart of a rumer since our scholars there would never allow such stories to spread. And i don't hear couple of Majlis yearly, i listen to Majalis on a daily basis, so i know what i'm saying.

Now since Ayatullah Mutahari heared it, then i wonder where are our other scholars not condemning such stories that obviously show flaws? Thats why i don't take these stories or testomonies at face value, i don't follow scholars blindly (with all do respect).

(salam)

Sallam

We have two things here.

1) Mutahiri made up these stories withotu evidence.

2) Mutahiri witnessed them.

3) Mutahiri just heard from some ordinary guy and decided to write a book to tell the ummah to stop these acts.

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(bismillah)

Well i don't want to disrespect sayed Nuri, i'm just saying why don't Iraqis and Iranian spread them and recite them just like their Pakistani/Indian brotheren?

(salam)

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Guest abaleada

(salam)

I'm on page three you guys and this is way too much bickering and competetitveness between Shia and Sunni - if you guys want to challenge Salmany, would you mind doing it on the Shia-Sunni board, please? I came here to read about the topic listed, not to wade through a debate. Polite or not, a debate is a debate, and when I'm not in the mood for one, I'd like to be able to read through a thread with such a title as this ne bears without having to scroll past posts demanding proof from Salmany, or accusations that one or the other of us do bud`ah, or whatever.

please, take it to the appropriate forum if you're not staying properly on topic or in the spirit of things.

-Abbie

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(salam),

Firstly, I'm not even going to bother arguing with the Sunnis in regards to this so this message is for the Shias - Usooli, Akhbaari, Malang, Molai.

You know the rules of Shiachat. Abide by them. (i'm not saying if you say YA ALI MADAD your not going by the rules.)

Lets forget the rules for a minute. We are the Shia of Ali. We know what is controverisal among us and what is not. I know some people on here respect other people and their interpretation of whatever, but some ignorant people do not.

I'll be honest with you... With this Ya Ali Madad thing, i use it as a greeting with my malang mates aswell, but for the sake of unity i'd rather not go putting it on top of salaamalaikum on Shiachat (which i think would give a wrong impression to some shias here) that has a very diverse public when it comes to the Shias.

You guys have to learn to respect each other man. If you round calling each other names (ahlul biddah etc) its just causes disunity among us. That is one thing we cannot afford right now. We've got Nawasib Sunnis after us, we have our brothers and sisters Shaheed in very high numbers and we are here fighting about how to greet each other? I'm not saying don't discuss, just be respectful.

There have been lots of topics on Shiachat where i have wanted to say what i feel but i have decided not to incase it caused more trouble on a troublesome thread. You have to understand that the only thing keeping us all here in this forum is one thing we all have in common - Love for the Ahlul Bayt.

We Shias have shown the world how to walk over fire, split our heads open and still be able to stand there and say Ya hussain but unity is the only 5 letter word we still haven't been able to accomplish.

If not on our differences, let us unite for the sake of our love for Aale Mohammed. If there is one thing that can bring us closer together and one thing we all can relate to, is our love for the Ahlul Bayt. Lets unite people.

Wa'salaam

A very fed up Asad Ali.

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If not on our differences, let us unite for the sake of our love for Aale Mohammed. If there is one thing that can bring us closer together and one thing we all can relate to, is our love for the Ahlul Bayt. Lets unite people.

Ameen

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Salaam,

A friend of my uncle was at a husseiniyah in London once when he heard a narration of how Imam Hussein and Hazrat Abbas killed thousands and thousands of men. He too calculated that it was physically impossible for this to happen. When he challenged the person delivering the lecture, the lecturer said something along the lines of "it isn't true but I say it to make people cry more".

Shocking.

Wa Salaam

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If you previously had seen the thread on calling Yaa Ali Madad then you may have noticed that I am not against using Aslaam Alaikum but I want to give salam to him/her who is of legitimate birth. Therefore when a brother and sister answers me then I will most definitely give salam to them

Yaa Ali Madad

What do you say to the following greeting by Prophet Muhammed (SAW):

YAA ABAL GHAISOO AGHSEENI YAA ALI ADRAKNI

Anwarul-alvia pg 261

Yaa Ali Madad

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Ahsantum brother, its times like these I see how Imam Zain ul abidin was right when he said: verily our 'shia' have done more damage to us than muawiyah and yazid...

SALAMUN ALAIKUM

BR. HEZBILLAHI WHAT R U SAYING, I REQUEST U TO THINK BEFORE SAYING ANYTHING.

WHOM R U COMPARING???????

ACCORDING TO ONE HADEES A LOVER OF AHLUL BAIT IS NOT LIKE ORDINARY PEOPLE. I WILL GET U THE REFERENCE TOMMORROW.

IF NOT FROM THE ADMINISTRATION I WARN U FOR SAYING THIS.

WASSALAM

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Salaam,

A friend of my uncle was at a husseiniyah in London once when he heard a narration of how Imam Hussein and Hazrat Abbas killed thousands and thousands of men. He too calculated that it was physically impossible for this to happen. When he challenged the person delivering the lecture, the lecturer said something along the lines of "it isn't true but I say it to make people cry more".

Shocking.

Wa Salaam

Sallam

Jazakallah bro. May Allah reward you for your honesty. If someone had not stood up 2 very pious men may have been subject to accusations i.e Mutahiri and Hajji Noori.

Sallam

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Bismillah:

Salam to u all! J

using only reason.

All muslims would agree, anything that contradicts the Quran is wrong.

Imam al- Sadiq quoted Imam Ali as saying, when u are presented with a narrative “…..whatever corresponds to the Book of Allah take it and whatever contradicts it leave it.”

So far, I cannot see any contradictions: yes its recommended that we say salam when we see muslims; but not wajib. Only wajib to reply! We all know that it’s the preferred way of greeting as bro Hizb rightly pointed out in;

“…….when those who believe in Our revelations come unto thee, say: Peace be unto you!”Surah 6 ayah 54

The greeting recommened btwn all muslims is always Salam. None doubts that.

Ya Ali Madad = oh Ali Help me!

Now if certain plp want to add "ya ali madad" they can; although strange to greet someone saying “oh Ali help me?!” or if this has been written on posts; then maybe the writer want Imam Ali’s (as) help.

It just cannot not be bid'a if anything they are calling for the help of Ali - any calling of shaffa using the name of Ali is a good thing!

Especially considering when the prophet needed help and asked God(swt). God told Prophet (pbuh) to ask for a helper (waliy/ "mushil kusha") and this will be granted. This helper was Imam Ali ( God apppointed!!!!). So who are we to question whether, these plp should ask for help from Ali or not ?!!! if imam was fit enuff for the prophet to ask help from; then who better to ask help from?!

“ya Ali madad” is also a testimony of realizing the status of Ali. By doing so it is not blasphemous(as some profess), due to the fact that by elevating Ali, you in turn elevate the prophet(pbuh) and subsequently God!. Remember that the prophet said, that if he revealed the truth about imam Ali fully; he feared that plp would start worship him and go astray; such is his callobour.

The kind of behaviour that can be seen on the posts, reminds me of when the prophet and his companions were all in Masjid el Nebewi; a visitor had come to see the prophet. But before entering the mosque he sed SALAM. However he sent salam to Ali first and then to the prophet - likewise many of the companions were angry at the visitor and scorned him for insulting the prophet. The guest laughed and sed "oh prophet you spend time with them and teach them yet they still do not, understand what you say!"

The prophet, then asked the guest to explain: the visitor told him that u always show the status of Ali and u say Ali is "gate of knowledge" and "u are the city".

How can i enter the city without going through the gate? Ali is the God appointed pathway of asking for help!

Bro Hezbullahi the prophets helper was always Ali!!! If the prophet, as you say never sed “Ya Ali Madad” maybe that’s cos Ali (as) was always there to help at his side, the best of aid.

Bro Hizbullah the truth is not in what we see. Amirul Momineen(as)sed "Perception with eyes is not real observation, because eyes sometimes decieve the people; but wisdom doent decieve whomever it counsels."

Edited by FOOD!

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Bro Hizbullah the truth is not in what we see. Amirul Momineen(as)sed "Perception with eyes is not real observation, because eyes sometimes decieve the people; but wisdom doent decieve whomever it counsels."

hmmm... i think i saw bro YouthOfAli saying the hadeeth i mentioned. I just dont know where it is now. But the hadeeth is from Nahj al Balaghah so it is a saheeh one ;)

ill try to look for it.

[After Editing the post:]

here it is:

Imam Ali (as) :There is a four finger difference between truth and falsehood.- what you see is truth and what you hear is falsehood. (Nahjul Balagha).

Take care...

wa salam

Edited by Hizbullah

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salaamz

But the hadeeth is from Nahj al Balaghah so it is a saheeh one

Do you agree that everything in Nahjul Balagha is 100 % correct and cannot be disputed no matter what it is about ?

was salam

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(bismillah)

(salam)

yeah bro... i am sure of what i have said. i remember we had a long discussion with about 15 bros about this particular thing. so at the end we called a sheikh and he told us that all scholars agree that the nahj is saheeh.

wa salam

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salaam aleikum

quote - food

“…….when those who believe in Our revelations come unto thee, say: Peace be unto you!”Surah 6 ayah 54

although the discussion is on the latter part of the ayah, it would be interesting to read what the members on this board think about the first part of the ayah - revelations.

because the the crux of the entire ayah is not salaam aleikum, but that the revelations should be agreed upon in toto, then and only then wil the latter part apply.

revelations = ?????

I can assure you that once u set the parameters for the revelations - to those only will u wish salaam aleikum and not to everybody.

akhbari

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because the the crux of the entire ayah is not salaam aleikum, but that the revelations should be agreed upon in toto, then and only then wil the latter part apply.

I can assure you that once u set the parameters for the revelations - to those only will u wish salaam aleikum and not to everybody.

akhbari

(bismillah)

(salam)

I guess this is why greetings like "Aadab" were introduced in societies where Hindus and Muslims live side by side.

WS

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