Should We be Cheering the deaths of American Army?

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"'And why do you guys always cry over sept 11th. Millions died at the hands of the soviets in afgghanistan when they invaded but the afghanis didnt break and scream 'how did this happen'.-do u get the point? Is that a justification for the deaths of 3000 people. Pull the other one old marine vet clone "

Very poor analogy sir, considering that if hadn't been for the U.S. giving the Muhjadeen our stinger missiles, the Russians would still be there, just another example of how the west, if it helps out a muslim country, will always get bit for it's reward!

[Greg Potemkin]

"You know as a boy, I remember being told of how our brave forebears fought with stealth and skill by hiding behind trees and sneaking up on the British occupiers, who foolishly marched in rigid formations. I never once heard that the tactics of the Americans termed "cowardly".

I suppose it all depends on who is who.

Greg"

So I take it that with that statement Mr. Potemkin, you side with the killers of our troops in Iraq, and consider their actions justified?

No -I don't like seeing our boys die, and yes this is the nature of war - as I said previously, that's why I think that war should (in general) be avoidedand that's one of the reasons that I did not approve of Mr. Bush starting this one.

Greg

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"The argument of all those that try and justify a crime -"Everyone else does it "

Gee Mr. Potemkin, thats exactly how you are trying to justify the Palestinians attacking the jews, "get back that lost land", isn't it?

The Jews commit the crime of taking the land, and then after a couple generations later , the Palestinians commit the crime of trying to take it back.

A never ending war of tit for tat, unless someone has some brains (which aparently the Germans and Poles do) and say, Stop!

[Greg Potemkin]

"The argument of all those that try and justify a crime -"Everyone else does it "

Gee Mr. Potemkin, thats exactly how you are trying to justify the Palestinians attacking the jews, "get back that lost land", isn't it?

The Jews commit the crime of taking the land, and then after a couple generations later , the Palestinians commit the crime of trying to take it back.

A never ending war of tit for tat, unless someone has some brains (which aparently the Germans and Poles do) and say, Stop!

And so if someone takes what is yours, you being a brainy fellow would just surrender, and say, "Stop! You keep it."

Interesting.

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"And so if someone takes what is yours, you being a brainy fellow would just surrender, and say, "Stop! You keep it."

Interesting."

So going by your logic, world war III should be starting very soon, because by your thinking the panzers should be rolling across the polish border right now.

That really interesting.

[Greg Potemkin]

Reggie,

Try and think about what you are saying.

You said

The Jews commit the crime of taking the land, and then after a couple generations later , the Palestinians commit the crime of trying to take it back.

First taking back what is yours is not a crime.

Second, you had previously said

First off, I'm no fan of the Jews in Isreal, but just looking at the track record over there, the Muslims have been trying to wipe them out for 50 years now, so any retaliation could be understandable

Following this argument,retaliation against those who retaliate against you for committing a crime is understandable, but retaliation against those who commit the original crime is not. That is BIZARRE.

Lastly, your argument that the Palestinians should have enough brains to let the Zionists take what is theirs because the Soviets also engaged in some ethnic cleansing is unusual - to say the least.

You know, when you find yourself justifying things based on the fact that Stalin did it, you might think about changing your position.

Greg

[The Democrat]

The title of this thread is an insult to decent people. Most of those guys are just doing there job. Sure, some army people are animals, but a lot are just people from poor families trying to make a living. Most never thought they'd have to fight cos they enlisted before bush came to power (himself a draught-dodger, ironically).

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"Following this argument,retaliation against those who retaliate against you for committing a crime is understandable, but retaliation against those who commit the original crime is not. That is BIZARRE."

News Flash Mr. Potemkin, the Jews have created Isreal about the same amount of time that the Germans and Poles were displaced from their homelands, they aren't making a ruccus about it, care to tell me why the Palestinians are more deserving then the Germans of Poles in world opinion? They have the entire Arabian pennisula to find a place to live, that is if thier arab brothers will take them??

"Lastly, your argument that the Palestinians should have enough brains to let the Zionists take what is theirs because the Soviets also engaged in some ethnic cleansing is unusual - to say the least."

Once again, 50 to 100 times more people were displaced in Europe, and remain displaced today, so care to tell me why they can let bygones be bygones, and go on with their lifes and not start another world war, when the palestinians can't?

Whats so special about the palestinians?

Edited July 7, 2003 by Reginald Barnabas

[The Democrat]

"Following this argument,retaliation against those who retaliate against you for committing a crime is understandable, but retaliation against those who commit the original crime is not. That is BIZARRE."

News Flash Mr. Potemkin, the Jews have created Isreal about the same amount of time that the Germans and Poles were displaced from their homelands, they aren't making a ruccus about it, care to tell me why the Palestinians are more deserving then the Germans of Poles in world opinion? They have the entire Arabian pennisula to find a place to live, that is if thier arab brothers will take them??

"Lastly, your argument that the Palestinians should have enough brains to let the Zionists take what is theirs because the Soviets also engaged in some ethnic cleansing is unusual - to say the least."

Once again, 50 to 100 times more people were displaced in Europe, and remain displaced today, so care to tell me why they can let bygones be bygones, and go on with their lifes and not start another world war, when the palestinians can't?

Whats so special about the palestinians?

We have no right to speak on this issue as americans (seeing as you're quoting history) ... the native americans had a whole continent but we took it from them and gave them jack...matter ended

Edited July 7, 2003 by The Democrat

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"We have no right to speak on this issue as americans (seeing as you're quoting history) ... the native americans had a whole continent but we gave them jack...matter ended "

We sure do have a right to speak about this as americans, I'm not the biggest fan of Jews, but I sure wouldn't want to see them rounded up and stuffed in gas chambers again, what do you think these muslims would do to them if they had the were-with-all to get away with it, give a Bar Mitzvah party and hand slice the Gefelta fish themselves?

P.S. If you are having pangs of whiteman's guilt, I'll tell you what to do, drive up to an Indian reservation, grab the first one you see, drive him back to your house, and sign it over to him!

Until you do that, you don't have the moral high ground to puke out the leftist vomit you do!

Edited July 7, 2003 by Reginald Barnabas

[husainshahid]

All we've got in the past is the europeans who have put jews in gas chambers (which you conveniently gloss over - what a surprise!). The muslims have done no such thing. Whether the Spanish Inquisition or Hitler's Holocaust, it has been the christians who've been killing the jews, followed by the jews killing the muslims in palestine. Your predictions, as usual, are flawed and based on nothing but bigotry. You make a very poor case...indeed so ridiculous are your assertions on this thread that i figure nothing, even Jesus, could convince you that you're living in a world of delusions with the the worst sort of inferiority complex...maybe your girlfriend left you or you are impotent or something...maybe that could account for your attempts to project rewritten history that defies all facts known to historians and turns them upside down.

Edited July 7, 2003 by husainshahid

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"All we've got in the past is the europeans who have put jews in gas chambers (which you conveniently gloss over - what a surprise!). The muslims have done no such thing. Whether the Spanish Inquisition or Hitler's Holocaust, it has been the christians who've been killing the jews, followed by the jews killing the muslims in palestine. Your predictions, as usual, are flawed and based on nothing but bigotry. You make a very poor case...indeed so ridiculous are your assertions on this thread that i figure nothing, even Jesus, could convince you that you're living in a world of delusions with the the worst sort of inferiority complex...maybe your girlfriend left you or you are impotent or something...maybe that could account for your attempts to project rewritten history that defies all facts known to historians and turns them upside down. "

Bravo, it only took a few sentences for you do jump right in with the ad hominen attacks, better ask your debate club how many points you score for that?

BTW, Mr. M.E. expert, just what would you Muslims do with the 4 or 5 million Jews in Isreal, send them on a club med cruise?

[Greg Potemkin]

BTW, Mr. M.E. expert, just what would you Muslims do with the 4 or 5 million Jews in Isreal, send them on a club med cruise?

From your previous responses,

...the arabs in Palestine were relocated yes, executed no!

and

Once again, 50 to 100 times more people were displaced in Europe, and remain displaced today, so care to tell me why they can let bygones be bygones

am I to undrstand that ethnic cleaning of them (or relocation or displacement) would be OK by you, or does the principle which you espoused not apply to Jews, only to Arabs, and others?

Greg (looking forward to another amusing response)

Edited July 7, 2003 by Greg Potemkin

[Dhzokhar]

Very poor analogy sir,

Yet you get the point. And yet the rest of your post tries to get away from the point. LOL what a tactic.

considering that if hadn't been for the U.S. giving the Muhjadeen our stinger missiles,

Aaah the wire guide RPG< SAMs and small explosives which were all provided by the muslim nations. This is a poor try at trying to get away from the point which is only because millions people died in afghanistan this doesn justify the deaths of 3000 people on sept 11th. So please keep ur world war 2 stories to your self.

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"This is a poor try at trying to get away from the point which is only because millions people died in afghanistan this doesn justify the deaths of 3000 people on sept 11th."

Huh? Try saying that again in english, will you?

[Dhzokhar]

Huh? Try saying that again in english, will you?

This is a poor try at trying to get away from the point which is only because millions people died in afghanistan this doesnt justify the deaths of 3000 people on sept 11th.

Hows that? I just added a t to doesn. Did that help you dissipher what i am saying or are you going to revert to calling me the supporter of Al Queda becuase I used sept 11th to prove a point. We are blind to injustice until it is us who become the victims of it.

Edited July 7, 2003 by Dhzokhar

[Greg Potemkin]

We are blind to injustice until it is us who become the victims of it.

Well Dzokhar,

That doesn't apply to everyone, but it certainly applies to people like Reggie.

Greg

[The Democrat]

Cheering for the deaths of our troops is sick. tell me, i don't deny that some uy over there are over the top and should be courtmarshalled, but since when have they been the same ones who have been shot. One killed yesterday was standing outside a shop in baghdad university waiting to buy a drink (not alcohol- just a coke or something). I mean why shoot him up? I could have understood (though disagree) with the people who shot up those brits who were playin' with women's underwear, but not this. I just don't understand it save that people just hate us cos they regard us as an invading power there for oil. Ok, that's true, but what's the guy who's standing there and buying a drink got to do with that.

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"Ok, that's true, but what's the guy who's standing there and buying a drink got to do with that. "

You don't get it, do you? He's an infidel, something less than human in the eyes of a radical muslim.

[roya]

Cheering for the deaths of our troops is sick. tell me, i don't deny that some uy over there are over the top and should be courtmarshalled, but since when have they been the same ones who have been shot. One killed yesterday was standing outside a shop in baghdad university waiting to buy a drink (not alcohol- just a coke or something). I mean why shoot him up? I could have understood (though disagree) with the people who shot up those brits who were playin' with women's underwear, but not this. I just don't understand it save that people just hate us cos they regard us as an invading power there for oil. Ok, that's true, but what's the guy who's standing there and buying a drink got to do with that.

was he in uniform? did he have a weapon? did he look like an american soldier?

if yes, then that's why and he made an easy target obviously. these people are pissed off. you think they're not going to take every opportunity.

there is no sense in war.

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"was he in uniform? did he have a weapon? did he look like an american soldier?

if yes, then that's why and he made an easy target obviously. these people are pissed off. you think they're not going to take every opportunity.

there is no sense in war."

There is no sense for war? Then how comes you use a full paragraph to justify the shooting of a soldier (in the back of the head), when he was simply trying to buy a bottle of soda?

[Dhzokhar]

There is no sense for war? Then how comes you use a full paragraph to justify the shooting of a soldier (in the back of the head), when he was simply trying to buy a bottle of soda?

The person in question is a soldier, a memeber of the military of the USA until he is discharged. And as long as is ACTING AS THE OCCUPYING FORCE OF A FORIEGN NATION AND IS PRESENT ON THEIR LAND AS THE OCCUPYING FORCE then he is a viable target for the Guerillas. The fact of the matter is while he is their as part of this occupying force he is a soldeir weather he is buying a soda, with or without his uniform, while he's taking a piss, while he's watching the Drew carrey show, whatever. As long as he is in Iraq he is a viable target for the resistance so lets not try to make him out to be an innocent civilian. I mean Sadamme Hussein is still a former dictator that killed millions of Iraqis if he was buying a soda rite?

[crit13]

I think a lot of you are losing sight of what the original question was.

"Should we be cheering the deaths of American soldiers"

There is no doubt, that some Iraqis are pissed off and want to kill Americans. Some would argue that it is right, some would argue that it is wrong. The bottom line is, it disgraceful to celebrate ANY ones death.

When the war started, you didn't see the non muslims on this site posting articles of the death and destruction of Iraqi's with smily faces and hearts beside it.

Whether we agreed with the war or not, we didn't get any satisfaction from people dying.

I personally think that Iraqis have every right to defend themselves when they are attacked just as the American soldiers have every right to defend themselves but you will never see me cheering anyones death.

It's a fact of life that people are put in a position that they do not want to be in. I doubt any one of those 18 year old soldiers would rather be in Baghdad than a beach somewhere in Florida.

[roya]

well it's stupid question. what is cheering death anyway? the issue is who are you rooting for? I think those of us who say the americans deserve what they get premise it on the fact that this war was a Choice contrary to what the president & the necons try to scare us into believing.

I know I've made statements in the past, but I recognize that a dead US soldier does not make up for a dead Iraqi girl or boy or mother or grandfather. it's sad but I cheer the exodus of these soldiers.

there is no sense to war because the only rule in war is kill or be killed. what more is there? is there an order? are there universal rules (geneva convention, sure)?

besides, some of you like to equate it to terrorism beause it's in style. well, I don't know about you but war is war. organized armies storming countries in the name of freedom (conquest) is war and the response to that is defense. what's so hard to understand here?

you need to see beyond your Empire mentality and look at the plain facts: the US is occupying Iraq and people are not happy. whatever name you give them, at least give a thought to why they are not happy - there are many reasons and they differ from person to person, family to family, group to group but there is one thing that holds true: no justice, no peace

[amel718]

Its absurd to ask 'should we cheer deaths of american soldier?" I hate political correctness.... If you as an occupier step on to my land and hang your flag over my land, (only to pull it down days later, once again due to political correctness) if you send troops and try to tell me its to liberate poor me, when the Palestinians have been literally dying to be liberated rigt to this very second, when the Iraqis were once waiting to be liberated YEARS ago but America instead GAVE chemical weapons to Saddam so that he could use them (I'm sure the US knew he wasnt planning on using it to kill off pesky flies), - and than you dare insult me by saying you are "liberating" my people?!

What do you think any sane, proud Iraqi wih self-respect would do? He would spit on your American flag, just as he cheers the death of every occupying soldier, because the point is NOT to cheer another mans death, but to cheer for the success of the resistance, no matter how small the feat, whether 1 or 100 soldiers go down, we cheer because after all this is resistance, and in a war, no matter what you think, BOTH parties engaged cheer the other sides death, because it means something to each side.

[bin bashir]

(salam)

First, I would like to commend everyone that has contributed to this thread. I see hours of productivity flowing through your answers.

Second; Mr. Greg Potemkin, I must give you kudos for your responses.

Now, on to the main point.

The cheering of triumphs against occupation must be expected. This is a reality. The death of an invading soldier is beneficial to the entire resistance/freedom movements.

We, as Muslims, must not only enjoin in what is right and forbid what is wrong but also uphold the very essence of Justice (especially as the Shi'ah).

The death of foreign occupation soldiers is nothing but justice. It is justice for every death caused by the foreign war machines.

I am and have always been opposed to Saddam and the Ba'ath party, as they had martyred a great number of exceptional scholars and innocent people (my relatives included), and fought against Islam at every angle. I also oppose and have always opposed the Taliban in Afghanistan for the exact same reasons.

I have been opposing these people and their "Western" enforced regimes before they had even emerged politically.

Now, to claim that I support Saddam, the Taliban and/or the Ba'ath Party solely because I am proud that the resistance has triumphed is absurd.

There is no clear correlation between the preceding points.

I must add though, that I can understand the opposition to my contentment.

I wonder how many people have felt the pain of watching your mother and sister be raped in front of you, while your father bleeds to death beside you.

I wonder how many of you "Westerners" know how it feels to walk without knowing whereto.

Or to leave the home you were raised in and the only land you knew, not knowing if you would ever see it again.

I wonder how many of you "Westerners" can actually identify the route of all these pains.

Moreover, I wonder how you would feel if you witnessed this everyday for your entire lives.

Maybe after you experience all this, then you will understand our happiness in the death of your soldiers.

Please forgive me for any offences I have committed, and understand that the faults found in me do not represent the perfect system I try to adhere to: Islam.

May God have mercy on us.

(salam)

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"The death of foreign occupation soldiers is nothing but justice. It is justice for every death caused by the foreign war machines.

I am and have always been opposed to Saddam and the Ba'ath party, as they had martyred a great number of exceptional scholars and innocent people (my relatives included), and fought against Islam at every angle. I also oppose and have always opposed the Taliban in Afghanistan for the exact same reasons.

I have been opposing these people and their "Western" enforced regimes before they had even emerged politically.

Now, to claim that I support Saddam, the Taliban and/or the Ba'ath Party solely because I am proud that the resistance has triumphed is absurd.

There is no clear correlation between the preceding points."

WHAT? There is an absolute correlation!

Your absurd logic would have had a wagon train of Civil War Southerners, upon being saved from an Indian massacre by the U.S. Cavalry, promptly opening fire on them (the Cavalry) after the last Indian was drove off.

Tell me, does a drowning man upon being pulled up out of the water, bite the hand that is holding him up, if he recognizes the person saving him as someone he doesn't like?

Sick thinking like this will have the M.E. remaining in the dark ages for centuries to come.

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"Or to leave the home you were raised in and the only land you knew, not knowing if you would ever see it again.

I wonder how many of you "Westerners" can actually identify the route of all these pains."

Try tens of millions of European ("western") peoples displaced in world war II, who are still shut out of their native homelands.

"Moreover, I wonder how you would feel if you witnessed this everyday for your entire lives."

They have, and are, and have enough civilizatiion in their veins to realize that it is time to move on, and have. They aren't dwellling is some land of sick vengence, keeping score on every slight to them, real or imagined.

The Japanese and the Germans were both defeated by the U.S. and both went along with the rebuilding of their countries without acting like vengenful beasts, both ended up having Countries that are the respective powerhouses of their regions and neither could be considered "puppets" of the U.S.

"Maybe after you experience all this, then you will understand our happiness in the death of your soldiers."

The only thing I understand is that you your logic is sick and vengefull!

Your "poor me" routine is bogus, everyone in the world has gone through their trials and tribulations, what has happen to the arab muslims isn't something unique, but by in large it is something self inflicted!

Edited July 10, 2003 by Reginald Barnabas

[Dhzokhar]

Try tens of millions of European ("western") peoples displaced in world war II, who are still shut out of their native homelands.

Your "poor me" routine is bogus, everyone in the world has gone through their trials and tribulations, what has happen to the arab muslims isn't something unique, but by in large it is something self inflicted!

I've been told alot of Europeans were saying this in regard to your great nations soon after the events of Sept 11. "poor me" and "self Inflicted!" bit included.

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"I've been told alot of Europeans were saying this in regard to your great nations soon after the events of Sept 11. "poor me" and "self Inflicted!" bit included."

B.S.!

[Dhzokhar]

B.S.!

Heh i expected as much. "Why confront when you can avoid"-Great approach.

"I've been told alot of Europeans were saying this in regard to your great nations soon after the events of Sept 11. "poor me" and "self Inflicted!" bit included."

If you cant accept this then I betterr not tell you about their atttitude about America and Vietnem. :D

Edited July 10, 2003 by Dhzokhar

[bin bashir]

Your "poor me" routine is bogus, everyone in the world has gone through their trials and tribulations, what has happen to the arab muslims isn't something unique, but by in large it is something self inflicted!

I have never excluded the pain and suffering of other individuals. However, the point still remains, have you experienced any of this to speak so confidently regarding a matter that has very little room for conjecture?

May I ask how my two points (opposing Saddam and fighting foreign invaders) are related? You state:

WHAT? There is an absolute correlation!

Your absurd logic would have had a wagon train of Civil War Southerners, upon being saved from an Indian massacre by the U.S. Cavalry, promptly opening fire on them (the Cavalry) after the last Indian was drove off.

Tell me, does a drowning man upon being pulled up out of the water, bite the hand that is holding him up, if he recognizes the person saving him as someone he doesn't like?

Sick thinking like this will have the M.E. remaining in the dark ages for centuries to come.

1.) Please state the correlation.

2.) Interesting that you use a civil war analogy. May I ask if the South still fought the North after being saved? If no, then what battle are you referring to? Would this be the final and last battle of the war? If yes, then you can clearly see our perspective.

3.) No, a drowning man should not bite the hand that has saved him. However, your simple analogy holds no weight in comparison to the 'Iraqi occupation.

First, the 'Iraqis were not drowning. But I will accept your notion of "being saved" for the sake of argument.

Alright, the analogy should read as follows:

Drowning man is saved. After being saved, is stripped of his clothing (robbed of dignity), his only means of self-sustenance (OIL in reality) is robbed from him, and he is beaten whenever he asks why am I being choked (protesters being executed)?

But of course, this type of analogy would require far more deliberation and contemplation than the "Western" education and media organizations would have prepared you for. So, I don't expect you to comment objectively, or even understand the sentences...

No disrespect or offense intended on the intelligent and objective "Westerners" that have risen above their national norms.

By the way, I do enjoy your inane rebuttals. Please don't hold back. :D

[crit13]

Now who's using faulty logic?

Drowning man is saved. After being saved, is stripped of his clothing (robbed of dignity), his only means of self-sustenance (OIL in reality) is robbed from him, and he is beaten whenever he asks why am I being choked (protesters being executed)?

Pleeeeeeease. As if Joe Iraqi was benefiting from any oil procedes. Can you deny that Saddam kept every penny of oil revenue for himself, the Baath party and his army?

Stripped of his clothing???

As far as the rest of allegations of beatings, I would like to ask you this.

How many Iraqis were dying daily at the hands of Saddam and how many Iraqis are dying now.

At least the ones that are dying now are the ones that take up arms. Under Saddam, people would go missing in the night never to be heard of again.

I hope to God you all get what you're asking for. I hope to God the US pulls out tomorrow. I would love to see how long it would take for Saddam to sit his ass on his throne. If you think Saddam was bad then, you can't imagine even in your worst nightmare what he will do to the Shias this time around.

And then you and the rest of the brainiacs on this forum will cry and complain that the US pulled out too early and allowed him to massacre Shia muslims. I'm sure I will hear people say that it was planned from the beginning to allow Saddam to kill as many muslims as possible.

[Frodo]

"The death of foreign occupation soldiers is nothing but justice. It is justice for every death caused by the foreign war machines.

I am and have always been opposed to Saddam and the Ba'ath party, as they had martyred a great number of exceptional scholars and innocent people (my relatives included), and fought against Islam at every angle. I also oppose and have always opposed the Taliban in Afghanistan for the exact same reasons.

I have been opposing these people and their "Western" enforced regimes before they had even emerged politically.

Now, to claim that I support Saddam, the Taliban and/or the Ba'ath Party solely because I am proud that the resistance has triumphed is absurd.

There is no clear correlation between the preceding points."

WHAT? There is an absolute correlation!

Your absurd logic would have had a wagon train of Civil War Southerners, upon being saved from an Indian massacre by the U.S. Cavalry, promptly opening fire on them (the Cavalry) after the last Indian was drove off.

Tell me, does a drowning man upon being pulled up out of the water, bite the hand that is holding him up, if he recognizes the person saving him as someone he doesn't like?

Sick thinking like this will have the M.E. remaining in the dark ages for centuries to come.

LOL Reg, your analogy is twisted and is very inaccurate. The heroic and noble and self-sacrificing life-guard you describe is hardly what you make it seem. A more accurate portrayal would be to say that the person getting drowned was in fact in the process of getting drowned due to the sinister and immoral motives and acts of that same life-guard. in other words, the life-guard himself was doing the act of plunging that poor guy's face in the water, his fingers clinging to the guy's throat, barely giving the fella a chance to come up for some breathing air, and then at the end of it all, decides he would be the great and awe-inspiring superman and help the guy out of the water.

[Frodo]

Pleeeeeeease. As if Joe Iraqi was benefiting from any oil procedes. Can you deny that Saddam kept every penny of oil revenue for himself, the Baath party and his army?

now come on, we all hate Saddam and his brutal Ba'ath regime, but let not this emotionally charged hype strip us of grasping on to the ropes of accuracy and reality. Saddam, for all the evil that he was, did not keep every penny from the oil revenue for himself. that is simply a lie.

during the 80's, Iraq had the best educational system in the Middle East, one of the best and most socialistic health care systems in the world (would've made the great Unlce Sam bow his head in shame, in fact), the illiteracy rates plunged to an all-time low, and Iraqis (along with Palestinians) were generally considered the most educated and talented people in the entire region. as is mentioned in the great work by the [Edited Out]burns, Out of the Ashes, even a poor person in the streets of Baghdad or Najaf or Kerbala could expect to eat either meat or chicken some 3 times a week. sure the pavements and roads were not made of gold and diamonds, Saddam and his sons and relatives did spend huge stockpiles of money on mind-boggling castles, mansions, cars, feasts, and women, and the political climate was one of morbid repression and oppression, but let's state the facts as they are and not resort to the art of lying and twisting facts in order to further an already shallow argument. even during the sanctions regime, which cmpletelty destroyed the spirit of Iraq and broke it to pieces, the accusations about Saddam hording every red penny coming from the oil-for-food program is simply false, as even the leading UN specialists and those involved in monitoring this program have repeated time and again. if you read their statements and reports, you will notice something strikingly different from the [Edited Out] you're trying to sell here.

again, let me restate, no one here wants Saddam or his regime back. that he was evil, horrific, terrible, brutal, cruel, authoritarian, is all a given. it needs no further expounding. in this sense he is no different from many other of the ME despots and dictators, most of whom Washington and London flirt with 24/7. but while the princes of the House of Saud and other oil-rich dimwats in the Gulf were busy spending their oil revenues on cars and houses and what not, Saddam was more interested in modernizing Iraq, politically, economically, and socially. that is a fact. had you known anything at all about Iraq in the late 70's and 80's that would have been vividly clear to you.

As far as the rest of allegations of beatings, I would like to ask you this.

How many Iraqis were dying daily at the hands of Saddam and how many Iraqis are dying now.

Let me ask you, how much do you think were dying then, on a yearly basis, and how much have died thus far due to the war and the aftermath of the war? Please bring some reliable figures, for we are all dealing with facts here right, and not some misconstrued astronomical figure to the power of 1000 that has no factual basis.

At least the ones that are dying now are the ones that take up arms. Under Saddam, people would go missing in the night never to be heard of again.

The ones dying then, to a large extent, were dying because they were taking up arms against Saddam, metaphorically speaking if not always physically. Political dissidents, religious leaders, ect... and then of course there those unfortunate by-standers who got caught in the cross-fire, what your PR men would conveniently call "collateral damage", isnt that right? Now many of those same people have taken up arms again, this time not against some internal foe, but against an illegitimate and brutal occupying force. And again, same old drum beat, same old "collateral damage", just wearing different stripes. And you say that the US has nothing against the Iraqi people? Why of course not.

I hope to God you all get what you're asking for. I hope to God the US pulls out tomorrow. I would love to see how long it would take for Saddam to sit his ass on his throne. If you think Saddam was bad then, you can't imagine even in your worst nightmare what he will do to the Shias this time around.

And then you and the rest of the brainiacs on this forum will cry and complain that the US pulled out too early and allowed him to massacre Shia muslims. I'm sure I will hear people say that it was planned from the beginning to allow Saddam to kill as many muslims as possible.

well as the great Forest Gump once said, "stupid is as stupid does." Saddam stands less than one chance in 25 million of getting back to the thrones of power. you seem to be deeply entrenched in some cucko-land of misinformation, which perhaps is not your fault, given the amount of baseless jitterish you and many like you are spoon-fed daily by the media and TV. the political and social factors that were present during the 70's, which gave Saddam an opportunity (one in a life time) to take advantage of the situation(one major factor of course being CIA assistance) and rise up be god-king of Babylon, are simply not present, and there is no way on earth that the great majority of the people of Iraq would accept the rule of this man or anyone remotely like him after having tasted his bitter rule for some 30 years now.

if the US, being the God-inspired, benign, noble, selfless, and generous nation that it is, rid the people of Iraq of Saddam and his regime for no other purpose than that he was a madman who tortured and killed them, out of no other factor than that sheerly magnificent Western concern for the human rights and the plight of other poor and wretched peoples, then why not leave, after this high and moral act has been done? let the people of Iraq choose what their future and destiny is to be, isnt that what we're taught democracy is all about? or is democracy, unrestrained and not tampered with, fit for white Europeans and not for uncivilized brutes and barbarians who need the caring and guiding hand of the White Man to tell them which way to proceed, by what means, and at what speed?

Edited July 10, 2003 by Frodo