Should We be Cheering the deaths of American Army?

[Dhzokhar]

There is cheering of the deaths of american soldiers and it has come to light that that some [uS Patriot, Reginald Barnabas and Crit13] do not like the fact that some individuals at Shiachat.com are cheering the deaths of american soldiers. Further more they find it offensive and threatening, correct me if i'm wrong.

So the question is simple, should we be cheering the death of american soldiers who liberated the iraqis from the brutal baathist regime yet have killed innocent people who have participated in mass gatherings. Answers and reason please.

Edited July 6, 2003 by Dhzokhar

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

A very well put question, although I would question whether the killing of the innocent protestors was premeditated on the Americans part, or the fearfull response of scared 18 yrs. old soldiers, ill equipted or trained at handling civilian unrest?

[Dhzokhar]

or the fearfull response of scared 18 yrs. old soldiers, ill equipted or trained at handling civilian unrest?

that is on the americans part. their american military thus it is the american militarys responibility to train their soldiers and not to kill innocent people.

Answer the question.

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"that is on the americans part. their american military thus it is the american militarys responibility to train their soldiers and not to kill innocent people.

Answer the question. "

The answer is simple, no you shouldn't be cheering on the killing of soldiers, most Bushwacked while trying to help straighten out the mess over there.

Pot shots were known to have been taken at the troops in the one protest incident, the other is uncertain, neither had any american sitting down before hand thinking, gee, I want to kill some Iraqis today, like what is being done from the other side.

[Dhzokhar]

I want to kill some Iraqis today

Actually they did think that because they were targeting Bathists soldiers who are made up of Iraqis

, like what is being done from the other side.

Whos is the other side? If it is Sadamme then surely targeting americans is what he and his soldiers should be doing?? They are the enemy that has taken away his rule and occupied his country. It just seems you saying e.g

'The taliban should not be attacking us in Afghanistan but we're going to kill every Taliban fighter out their'

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"Actually they did think that because they were targeting Bathists soldiers who are made up of Iraqis"

I was talking about the people shot at the demonstrations, perhaps if there were Baathist soldiers there, there was a reason for the shooting then.

[Dhzokhar]

I was talking about the people shot at the demonstrations, perhaps if there were Baathist soldiers there, there was a reason for the shooting then.

yeah the reason was there was chanting calling america to get out.

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"If it is Sadamme then surely targeting americans is what he and his soldiers should be doing?? They are the enemy that has taken away his rule and occupied his country. It just seems you saying e.g

'The taliban should not be attacking us in Afghanistan but we're going to kill every Taliban fighter out their' "

So if that's the case, which it probably is, you Shias are cheering on the very people who have butchered you on countless occasions, taking their side, for what, sake of religious unity, are you that blind to reality?

So the botton then is, the Shias here support Saddam and the Taliban?

[Dhzokhar]

So if that's the case, which it probably is, you Shias are cheering on the very people who have butchered you on countless occasions, taking their side, for what, sake of religious unity, are you that blind to reality?

This isnt about sides. Only if it were that simple but its not. Not everything is black and white- thats an analogy by the way. The fact is america doesnt need to be the occupying force and there are other ways then american involvement to help the Iraqi people. It is quite clear the iraqis doent support america.

So the botton then is, the Shias here support Saddam and the Taliban?

Hmm that funny. People want america out because they dont trust them. I'm sure the Muslims here would rather have a UN iniative sent in rather then the american occupying force.

The taliban example was simply to show how absurd it is what you are saying. It is alrite to shoot your enemy dead but the enemy shouldnt attack you. Thats was the point of the EXAMPLE. Yet you want to belive that I support the taliban? I dont understand how you came to this conclusion. :huh:

what you need to understand that this isnt as easy as 1+1. Only because people dont support the USA doesnt mean they support Sadamme.

Edited July 6, 2003 by Dhzokhar

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"what you need to understand that this isnt as easy as 1+1. Only because people dont support the USA doesnt mean they support Sadamme. "

No it's just that simple, if you cheer on the killing of american troops, it gets down to this Muslim vs. the Infidel thing, doesn't it, how else could you explain cheering on the very people that slaughtered hundreds of thousands of you!

This would be akin to the U.S. troops liberating the death camps in Germany, only to have the German Jews attacking them because the troops were americans, not Germans.

That's a pretty sick concept of logic!

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

Amazing thing is the non-response to this thread, must be that pesky Magenta Wormhole thing, huh?

[Dhzokhar]

No it's just that simple, if you cheer on the killing of american troops, it gets down to this Muslim vs. the Infidel thing, doesn't it, how else could you explain cheering on the very people that slaughtered hundreds of thousands of you!

I'm sorry your going to have to make your mind up. First you said people are cheering because they support Sadamme and now they are cheering because infidel are dieing?

Yet the american support Isreal who kill thousands of Muslims. The american bombed afghanistan wehere 20 000- 50 000 innocnet were killed. The USA implemented the Shah or Iran and maintained his rule, a man who kill thousand of Shia people. The subject is much wider then you think. The hatred and mistrust is there for a reason which you choose to ignore.

This would be akin to the U.S. troops liberating the death camps in Germany, only to have the German Jews attacking them because the troops were americans, not Germans.

This is baseless because I have ssaid that the UN should be the main party involved in the building of Iraq. But if you want to make it black and white then you are only fooling your self.

That's a pretty sick concept of logic!

Once again you see what you want to see. The logic is that the iraqis dont want you in there country. So lets get the UN involved and a ISAF type teams to keep the peace.

are you disagreeing with me purely on the basis to disagree?

Edited July 6, 2003 by Dhzokhar

[Dhzokhar]

Amazing thing is the non-response to this thread, must be that pesky Magenta Wormhole thing, huh?

You are resorting to petty tactics I saw this coming. I'm sure from now for the duration of this dicussion you will simply be happy with getting the last word. :angel:

Edited July 6, 2003 by Dhzokhar

[roya]

let's think about this ... they shoot without provocation at checkpoints and protests (you will claim otherwise or call it a mistake) and most of all, they manhandle Iraqi women. they deserve to be killed. they are invaders. like the british before them who came and said, "We are not against you, we are here to bring you freedom." And what happened? the freedom came in the form of one dictator after another until the CIA inspired coup that brought saddam to power weak link? fine. how about US support of saddam and his technology through the 1980s.

since when were Marines feminist or human rights liberators? what was the premise of this illegal invasion and subsequent Occupation?

I hate this BS arguement of, well we've come to save you, and now you want to look a gift horse in the mouth. we should be grateful that you've come to clean your mess, only to make matters worse because you don't have plan, because the state dept and pentagon keep bickering? give me a break. you don't support the shi'a uprising in 1992 but now you ask them to be on your side after you gave saddam permission to slaughter them?

stop crying about these soldiers. this is their job. their minds are trained to do one thing: kill. why should I have sympathy for a life lost when THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of my brothers and sisters in the region have died because of America's GREAT GAMES.

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"Yet the american support Isreal who kill thousands of Muslims. The american bombed afghanistan wehere 20 000- 50 000 innocnet were killed. The USA implemented the Shah or Iran and maintained his rule, a man who kill thousand of Shia people. The subject is much wider then you think. The hatred and mistrust is there for a reason which you choose to ignore."

First off, I'm no fan of the Jews in Isreal, but just looking at the track record over there, the Muslims have been trying to wipe them out for 50 years now, so any retaliation could be understandable.

As for the 50,000 deaths in Afganistan, where do you get those numbers from, "Misinformation is Us"?

Hatred and mistrust from the Shias in Iraq is no basis for siding with the proven killers, Saddam and company.

[Greg Potemkin]

From what i have read of your posts, it seems you think that everyone here is cheering the deaths of american soldiers, even when the thread has nothing to do with american soldiers dieing in iraq.

The fact is Dhzokhar, there are a great many people here cheering on the deaths of U.S. soldiers. There are several threads devoted to that very purpose. While this thread may not have been devoted to that very subject, the subject matter does get touched upon.

US Pat and everyone,

As has been pointed out on some of those other threads, these are, of course, the grim realities of war.

I mean really, that is the way it works, we occupy their country, and they resist. This is the nature of war, especially guerilla war - our guys occupy their territory (and kill some of their guys) and their guys try and kill our guys. A lot of Americans were happy when our guys occupied Basra, Najaf, and Baghdad (knowing full well that a lot of their guys got killed in the process). And a lot of Iraqis, and other middle easterners are happy when they hear that they kill some of our guys.

This is why some of us were opposed to this war in the first place. War is nothing but organized (or semi-organized) killing, and therefore it should not be entered into without a good reason, a casus belli.

Greg

p.s. sorry for responding on a different thread, but it seemed more appropriate and on topic.

Edited July 6, 2003 by Greg Potemkin

[Dhzokhar]

First off, I'm no fan of the Jews in Isreal, but just looking at the track record over there, the Muslims have been trying to wipe them out for 50 years now, so any retaliation could be understandable.

So they should arm the jews to the teeth, alow illegal settlements to expand in the west bank and Gaza? Keep curfew over plestinaians? Bulldoze the houses of people while they reside within them? Kill innocent civilais in Gaza by firing randomly into neighbourhoods? Illegally occupy the land? This is what Muslim see the american helping the jews do.

As for the 50,000 deaths in Afganistan, where do you get those numbers from, "Misinformation is Us"?

mainstream UN. Estimated death toll is 20 000- 50 000 but they are still trying verify because of the mass land, terrian and re-suregence of the war lords and the skirmishes between factions. Afghanistan is very much on the way back to civil war.

Hatred and mistrust from the Shias in Iraq is no basis for siding with the proven killers, Saddam and company.

Once again if you support deaths of USA soldier you are not supporting the baathists. Black and white tunnel vision is your main hinderance at not understanding. That and not truly believing what you are posting.

You are forgeting the Shia Clerics, The bouliddins, Talabanis, Chalabis etc. these people are also major players in this conflict. Yet we you carry on talking about u either suppport america or you support sadamme. Kind of like when bush said:

'Your either with us or against us'

Edited July 6, 2003 by Dhzokhar

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"I hate this BS arguement of, well we've come to save you, and now you want to look a gift horse in the mouth. we should be grateful that you've come to clean your mess, only to make matters worse because you don't have plan, because the state dept and pentagon keep bickering? give me a break. you don't support the shi'a uprising in 1992 but now you ask them to be on your side after you gave saddam permission to slaughter them?"

Don't have a plan, we haven't been allowed to impliment anything because of the terrorist attacks. My God the U.S. hasn't been in Iraq for 5 months yet, and you expect the U.S. to have it up on it's feet like Germany or Japan were 10 years after the war? The vicious people over there won't give the troops a chance to help, they are an uncivilized people beyond help.

"stop crying about these soldiers. this is their job. their minds are trained to do one thing: kill. why should I have sympathy for a life lost when THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of my brothers and sisters in the region have died because of America's GREAT GAMES."

Their minds aren't trained to do one thing "kill", that's complete rubbish, and you know it! So now the hundreds of thousands killed by Saddam are the Great Satans fault, nice segway into proving this really is an Muslim vs. the Infidel thing, isn't it?

No matter how vile the acts of muslim against muslim, they are forgotten when it comes to gang up on those devil infidels.

[roya]

Afghanistan is very much on the way back to civil war.

khuda nakona! ya Allah!

:cry: thanks in part to the US funding the khans still to this day. khak bar sareshan. the Great Game continues.

[US Patriot]

Let's think about this ... they shoot without provocation at checkpoints and protests (you will claim otherwise or call it a mistake) and most of all, they manhandle Iraqi women. they deserve to be killed. they are invaders.

Thinking about this is a good point. "They" don't shoot without provocation, that's silly. I had mad the point some time ago that Iraqi's dressed as women, or civilians and using that ploy to gain access to checkpoints would be a disaster. The U.S. soldiers have a right to defend themselves from cowardly sneak attacks.

and most of all, they manhandle Iraqi women. they deserve to be killed. they are invaders.[/

I see - they "deserve" to be killed. I think now that your frantic and hysterical. Please calm down and return to rational thought.

[Greg Potemkin]

First off, I'm no fan of the Jews in Isreal, but just looking at the track record over there, the Muslims have been trying to wipe them out for 50 years now, so any retaliation could be understandable.

Hey Reggie,

I beseech you to think about this for a minute. The statement that "the Muslims have been trying to wipe them out " and therefore retaliation is "understandable" doesn't make any sense, when one recognizes that the state of Israel was made a Jewish State by the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Muslims (as well as Christians).

Greg

[Dhzokhar]

Thinking about this is a good point. "They" don't shoot without provocation, that's silly.

yeah people chanting for americans soldiers to leave is quite a good reason to let off a couple of rounds into the crowd isnt it?

[roya]

Don't have a plan, we haven't been allowed to impliment anything because of the terrorist attacks. My God the U.S. hasn't been in Iraq for 5 months yet, and you expect the U.S. to have it up on it's feet like Germany or Japan were 10 years after the war? The vicious people over there won't give the troops a chance to help, they are an uncivilized people beyond help.

Their minds aren't trained to do one thing "kill", that's complete rubbish, and you know it! So now the hundreds of thousands killed by Saddam are the Great Satans fault, nice segway into proving this really is an Muslim vs. the Infidel thing, isn't it?

No matter how vile the acts of muslim against muslim, they are forgotten when it comes to gang up on those devil infidels.

the memory of saddam's brutalities are alive and well in the minds of the Iraqi people. they are not forgotten and your presumption otherwise shows your ignroance, and arrogance, the same kind of hubris that will bring this Empire to its fated end. it is only a matter of what more it will do before the American Empire is consigned to the dust bin of history.

oh if a soldier is not trained to kill, what is he trained to do? peacekeeping? :lol:

yes, the White Man's burden. civilize the uncivilized. bravo. only, these Civilized americans can't implement their plan because of the terrorists. good excuse. what is the plan that can't be implemented. pray tell ....

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"I beseech you to think about this for a minute. The statement that "the Muslims have been trying to wipe them out " and therefore retaliation is "understandable" doesn't make any sense, when one recognizes that the state of Israel was made a Jewish State by the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Muslims (as well as Christians).

Greg"

Sorry Greg, nice try, but up fell off the merry go round reaching for that ring!

Your "ethinic cleansing" which in today's parlance is equated to genocide, didn't occur, the arabs in Palestine were relocated yes, executed no!

There were millions of people relocated in eastern Europe and Germany after WWII, and I don't see them having 50 years of blood fueds over it to this day, like the arabs do with Isreal.

[Dhzokhar]

There were millions of people relocated in eastern Europe and Germany after WWII, and I don't see them having 50 years of blood fueds over it to this day, like the arabs do with Isreal.

Thats because they werent forced into over crowded refugee camps which were getting smaller as new settlemetns were built. Buts thats another thread.

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"the memory of saddam's brutalities are alive and well in the minds of the Iraqi people. they are not forgotten and your presumption otherwise shows your ignroance, and arrogance, the same kind of hubris that will bring this Empire to its fated end. it is only a matter of what more it will do before the American Empire is consigned to the dust bin of history."

The U.S. will still be standing and strong, centuries after Islam has faded from the minds of men!

"oh if a soldier is not trained to kill, what is he trained to do? peacekeeping?"

Only 40% of any armed force is relagated to being combat troops, of course you being ignorant to military matters wouldn't know that, would you?

"yes, the White Man's burden. civilize the uncivilized. bravo. only, these Civilized americans can't implement their plan because of the terrorists. good excuse. what is the plan that can't be implemented. pray tell ...."

How about just letting the electricity and water flow for a few days in a row for starters! Your terrorist pals seem to blow up those utilities on a daily basis, hurting whom, I might add?

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"Thats because they werent forced into over crowded refugee camps which were getting smaller as new settlemetns were built. Buts thats another thread.

Your ignorance of world history has risen to new bounds!

Entire cities were evacuated and forcibly moved hundreds of miles to other locations! You are clearly clueless.

[Greg Potemkin]

"I beseech you to think about this for a minute. The statement that "the Muslims have been trying to wipe them out " and therefore retaliation is "understandable" doesn't make any sense, when one recognizes that the state of Israel was made a Jewish State by the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Muslims (as well as Christians).

Greg"

Sorry Greg, nice try, but up fell off the merry go round reaching for that ring!

Your "ethinic cleansing" which in today's parlance is equated to genocide, didn't occur, the arabs in Palestine were relocated yes, executed no!

There were millions of people relocated in eastern Europe and Germany after WWII, and I don't see them having 50 years of blood fueds over it to this day, like the arabs do with Isreal.

Actually, quite a few were massacred in places like Deir Yassin.

Also, According to the Oxford English Reference Dictionary which I use,

Ethnic ceansingeuphem.the practice of mass expulsion or killing of of people from opposing ethnic or religious groups within a certain are

Incidentally, it is not a blood feud, it is acting in order to regain their rights. I find it interesting that you think that ethnic cleansing is OK.

Who was it that is being uncivilized?

Greg

Edited July 6, 2003 by Greg Potemkin

[Dhzokhar]

Your ignorance of world history has risen to new bounds!

Yet u stand by

"If you do not support the USA then you support Sadamme."

You call me ignorant. What a joke.

Entire cities were evacuated and forcibly moved hundreds of miles to other locations! You are clearly clueless.

Entire cities. These cities were made smaller by illegal settlements were they? Mass raids killing innocent people took place did there? People were forced to live by inhumane conidtion having there water cut off, electricity and heat cut off and only being allowed out of their homes for 1 hour in the entire day. I think it is your ignorance that blinds you old man.

By the way a man called Old Marine Vet brought this point about eastern Europe up in response to the palestinian situation. isnt that ironic??

Edited July 6, 2003 by Dhzokhar

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"Incidentally, it is not a blood feud, it is acting in order to regain their rights. I find it interesting that you think that ethnic cleansing is OK."

Who was it that is being uncivilized?"

Regain their rights? Hmmm, perhaps all those million of germans and poles who were displaced during the aftermath of WWII can jump on that band wagon too, brilliant idea, why lets have the panzers crossing the polish borders again, this time seeking to regain Gdansk (formerly Danzieg) and the poles can invade russia to regain their property, just like germany did in WWII to regain the Sudatenland.

This way we can insure a life times worth for tit for tat wars!

But that's civilized, isn't it Potemkin?

[Greg Potemkin]

The U.S. soldiers have a right to defend themselves from cowardly sneak attacks.

You know as a boy, I remember being told of how our brave forebears fought with stealth and skill by hiding behind trees and sneaking up on the British occupiers, who foolishly marched in rigid formations. I never once heard that the tactics of the Americans termed "cowardly".

I suppose it all depends on who is who.

Greg

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"Entire cities. These cities were made smaller by illegal settlements were they? Mass raids killing innocent people took place did there? People were forced to live by inhumane conidtion having there water cut off, electricity and heat cut off and only being allowed out of their homes for 1 hour in the entire day. I think it is your ignorance that blinds you old man."

No, these cities were completely gutted by the Soviet Army, who raped, pillaged and murdered millions of germans and poles, they forcible move almost all of eastern poland into what was then the Prussian state of germany, the port city of Danzieg became the port city of Gdansk and forced the germans there westward with no housing at their destinations.

So in restorspect, the palestinians had it like they were in the Marriot executive suite in comparison.

"By the way a man called Old Marine Vet brought this point about eastern Europe up in response to the palestinian situation. isnt that ironic??"

How astute of him, but modern history is hardly esoteric.

[Guest Reginald Barnabas]

"You know as a boy, I remember being told of how our brave forebears fought with stealth and skill by hiding behind trees and sneaking up on the British occupiers, who foolishly marched in rigid formations. I never once heard that the tactics of the Americans termed "cowardly".

I suppose it all depends on who is who.

Greg"

So I take it that with that statement Mr. Potemkin, you side with the killers of our troops in Iraq, and consider their actions justified?

[Dhzokhar]

No, these cities were completely gutted by the Soviet Army, who raped, pillaged and murdered millions of germans and poles, they forcible move almost all of eastern poland into what was then the Prussian state of germany, the port city of Danzieg became the port city of Gdansk and forced the germans there westward with no housing at their destinations.

So in restorspect, the palestinians had it like they were in the Marriot executive suite in comparison.

LOL what a justification for the suffering people. You should term ur soldeirs lucky compared to what Khalid did to the British when they came in Iraq to take him out. The killing of your soldeirs is nothing compared to the torture he put the britsh through and the mass killings of their soldiers. Tell me is that a justification?

'And why do you guys always cry over sept 11th. Millions died at the hands of the soviets in afgghanistan when they invaded but the afghanis didnt break and scream 'how did this happen'.-do u get the point? Is that a justification for the deaths of 3000 people. Pull the other one old marine vet clone

Edited July 6, 2003 by Dhzokhar

[Greg Potemkin]

"Incidentally, it is not a blood feud, it is acting in order to regain their rights. I find it interesting that you think that ethnic cleansing is OK."

Who was it that is being uncivilized?"

Regain their rights? Hmmm, perhaps all those million of germans and poles who were displaced during the aftermath of WWII can jump on that band wagon too, brilliant idea, why lets have the panzers crossing the polish borders again, this time seeking to regain Gdansk (formerly Danzieg) and the poles can invade russia to regain their property, just like germany did in WWII to regain the Sudatenland.

This way we can insure a life times worth for tit for tat wars!

But that's civilized, isn't it Potemkin?

The argument of all those that try and justify a crime -"Everyone else does it