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SNaqvi1214

Jamat Namaz for SISTER

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salam,

i hope you all are in the best of health and Imaan and are allowed to pray as you wish...

ok this issue errupted around december, but i'm really bothered by it now:

Every saturday, my local madressa's school boys line up in the jamaat to follow the Imam in prayer. seems normal? nope... the alim refuses to lead the sisters because he claims there has to be a parda inbetween the men and women.

this made me mad because--

1) even if one of the brothers decided to turn around after/before salaat, we're all in hijab, how could that be a problem?

2) at hajj, i know, i know, its a diffrent atmosphere, but still, men and women pray right next to eachother without a problem, why cant we pray BEHIND the men???

3) its unfair, i feel that i am being persecuted just because i am a sister... :( (ok, that one's just a little personal :) )

but the solutions i've thought up:

1) have a sister's jamaat...

we use to, a very sweet momina lady use to lead, but she moved to London, and now all the remaining teachers say that the job of leading everyone's prayer is too big a burden (as in they are afraid of praying incorrectly and messing up everyone's namaaz)

2) literally put up a curtain in between the two sections...

the Masjid will be torn down pretty soon... see, there's a new one being constucted on right behind it, so unless its to repair something important, i dont really want to stress the management out with extra problems.

3) i think this one might be the one (inshallah..)

i cant find one anywhere, but i'm praying,

does anyone know a ruling from any well known alim which states that women may pray behind men without any type of parda?

(as in the curtain, not hijab!)

NO HADITH PLEASE! (we've tried this, it failed.)

May Allah bless whoever solves this problem... there are many more girls than boys attending this madressa too, so imagine the deeds you'll cash up! :)

ma'salama

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Guest Slave of Zahra

1489. If there is only one male follower, it is Mustahab that he stands at the right hand side of Imam, and if there is only one female follower, she will stand in the same direction, but slightly behind so that when she goes to Sajdah, her head is in line with Imam's knees.

If there is one male, and one or more females in the congregation, the male will position himself to the right of Imam, and the females will all stand behind Imam. When there are many men and one or many women in the congregation, men will stand behind Imam, and women will stand behind the male followers.

Can women conduct congregational prayer?

- Yes, it is permissible for women to join in congregational prayer behind a male imam. A woman can also lead the prayer for other women. However, when a woman leads the prayer for other woman, [she must not stand ahead of them; rather she must stand in the same line].

When women take part in a congregational prayer with men, they must occupy the rear lines, or to the side, but with a barrier, such as a screen.

assalamu alaikum

sorry i am short on time.. i found these things from seyyed seestani's website..www.najaf.org.. while i couldnot find anything clearly stating a barrier is not required i think the absence of this statement is evidence in and of it self but i am not a scholar nor do i possess knowledge like some of the other bros and sis here.. they can elaborate more.. but the second ruling seems to imply a barrier is needed only if the women r beside the men but that is my opinon it is not worth much inshallah sis hajar can explain better than me...

UmAli

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Guest abaleada

(salam)

Could someone email a marj`a? Has anyone done so previously and has the reply yet?

See why we need an `Aalim list?

-Abbie

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(bismillah)

(salam)

At our masjid, we have a curtain separating the men from the women. The women pray on the right side and men on the left.

On occassion, women have prayed directly behind the men in the last rows. I've seen pictures in Iran of Friday prayers where women pray behind the men.

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sis umali... dont be so modest, you are a great scholar in comparison with an ignorant like myself... :) thank you for your response. and whats the URL of Sistani's page which you got this from? i looked all over but couldnt find anything!

When women take part in a congregational prayer with men, they must occupy the rear lines, or to the side, but with a barrier, such as a screen.

i agree with you, it sounds like the absence of the statement is enough... i'll have the mulana look at this. thank you again!

sis abbie i agree, there are so many scholars, but its just too hard to get in touch with them. (sigh)

bro ali, yeah thats the set up of another imambargha i attend in the city (well, Queens.) since i'm stubborn and i grew up at this imambargha, i'm not leaving!

this mulana i'm speaking about lived in Iran for some time, but he still doesnt accept the female followers.

May Allah bless you all for your input, thank you. :P

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Guest Slave of Zahra
whats the URL of Sistani's page which you got this from? i looked all over but couldnt find anything!

assalamu alaikum

www.najaf.org in the english section...the first ruling was taken from his book islamic laws under congregational prayers.. rule no. 1489

the second ruling was taken from jurisprudence made easy... a dialogue on salah pt 2...

inshallah i hope that helps at the masjid i attend there is a curtain separating men and women but during prayer the curtain is opened and the men stand in the front rows and the women in the back rows as there is not enough to be side by side when prayer and the lecture is finished the curtain is closed for the women to be able to talk to each other inshallah..

UmAli

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nope... the alim refuses to lead the sisters because he claims there has to be a parda inbetween the men and women.

Salaam alaikum,

Is this a Sunni Imam?

WaSalaam, Hajar

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Salaam alaikum,

Is this a Sunni Imam?

WaSalaam, Hajar

oh no! wallahi, he's a die hard shia from iran... he's a really nice person, just a tad bit extreme... do sunnis not lead women b/c of their gender? sounds more wahabi than sunni!

thank you so much sis umali!

1489. If there is only one male follower, it is Mustahab that he stands at the right hand side of Imam, and if there is only one female follower, she will stand in the same direction, but slightly behind so that when she goes to Sajdah, her head is in line with Imam's knees.

If there is one male, and one or more females in the congregation, the male will position himself to the right of Imam, and the females will all stand behind Imam. When there are many men and one or many women in the congregation, men will stand behind Imam, and women will stand behind the male followers.

I had already looked in my book, and the above is all that was there, so i skipped that section on the site... *oops* (guess i didnt look everywhere!) :)

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Salaamun 'Alaikum,

Sister SNaqvi, I know what your talking about, but I think it really depends on whos taqleed you do. Regardless, the Moulana's opinion should be respected he posseses much more knowledge. You guys should just have two jamaats. And don't worry about messing up, it is all depending on the intention. And if no one takes the initiative, you take it :).

Wa Salaam,

Abbas

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Guest Slave of Zahra

assalamu aliakum

dear sis

maybe sis hajar can expand on thiis idea but i was just re-reading this post to see how things were going and looking at the ruling again...

1489. If there is only one male follower, it is Mustahab that he stands at the right hand side of Imam, and if there is only one female follower, she will stand in the same direction, but slightly behind so that when she goes to Sajdah, her head is in line with Imam's knees. If there is one male, and one or more females in the congregation, the male will position himself to the right of Imam, and the females will all stand behind Imam. When there are many men and one or many women in the congregation, men will stand behind Imam, and women will stand behind the male followers.

the part in bold ... it would imply that there is no barrier between the imam and the female follower if her head is at his knees....just a thought i had inshallah keep us posted on your progress...

UmAli

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Salaam alaikum,

Is this a Sunni Imam? 

WaSalaam, Hajar

oh no! wallahi, he's a die hard shia from iran... he's a really nice person, just a tad bit extreme... do sunnis not lead women b/c of their gender? sounds more wahabi than sunni!

Salaam alaikum,

Ok, I was wondering, because I used to attend Jumah with a Sunni Imam. We asked him if the Sisters could pray on the side of the Brothers, he said no we must pray behind. This was because we prayed outside and we would be in the street if we prayed behind the men. We had asked a Mujtahid about it and he said we could do it, I think we might have needed some barrier between us, but he still said we could do it. But the Sunni Imam wouldn't accept it, so the Sisters ended up praying across the street to avoid blocking traffic.

Anyway, if he is Shia, I don't see why he won't let the Sisters pray behind the Brothers? Is there some Mujtahid that says this is unacceptable? I thought you only need a barrier when the Sisters pray beside the Brothers.

WaSalaam, Hajar

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Sister SNaqvi, I know what your talking about, but I think it really depends on whos taqleed you do. Regardless, the Moulana's opinion should be respected he posseses much more knowledge. You guys should just have two jamaats. And don't worry about messing up, it is all depending on the intention. And if no one takes the initiative, you take it :).

i follow sistani, and i'm pretty sure he does too. yes i agree he has a great deal of knowledge- ofcoarse, he became a mulana from an Irani institute, but that doesnt mean he's perfect (no one is), and that his opinions are always correct.

we had two jamaats for a while, and then the sisters' leader left (:() as i said before, so then we just prayed separelty, then i was put in charge to lead the small class's (4-8 years old) jamaat-- i was subbing for their teacher back then, but even now that their teacher's back, i still do it-- and i started a small jamaat with me and a few of my friends, they made me lead it since i already did the small kids, but its just not the same. :unsure: i'd like to follow an alim, not lead...

whenever i see the huge jamaats from the middle east on the news, or even large jamaats within the diffrent mosques, something lights up in my heart; and i know everyone knows what i'm talking about b/c we're all muslims. :). (like when you see a hijabi walking down the street, you say to yourself, "she's one of ours."--this is sad, i'm quoting white castle, lol ) i'd really want my imambargha to foster a community, not just a separated congregation.

Ok, I was wondering, because I used to attend Jumah with a Sunni Imam. We asked him if the Sisters could pray on the side of the Brothers, he said no we must pray behind. This was because we prayed outside and we would be in the street if we prayed behind the men. We had asked a Mujtahid about it and he said we could do it, I think we might have needed some barrier between us, but he still said we could do it. But the Sunni Imam wouldn't accept it, so the Sisters ended up praying across the street to avoid blocking traffic.

ouch thats rough! :huh:

i dont want you all to think that this mulana is that rude as the one above (am i allowed to say such a thing about mulanas, even if they're sunni?) he's really nice from what i have seen and he really, ok only pakis will understand this expression, "dil lagake parte hai" (translated.. um, puts his heart into everything? sounds better in urdu!)

but i dont know where he picked up these views. even when we prayed in one jamaat, his daughter, who is my friend, would pray in a room off to the side, separted by a curtain. (i know, you're going to say why dont the sisters pray in there then, since it's separted by a curtain; but its higher up by a few steps than where the imam would lead, and when i said "off to the side", i meant it!)

Anyway, if he is Shia, I don't see why he won't let the Sisters pray behind the Brothers? Is there some Mujtahid that says this is unacceptable? I thought you only need a barrier when the Sisters pray beside the Brothers.

must be, why else would he forbid us from following? but which marja would say this????

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... I am not sure of HIS basis but I do attend Jumuah Salat there. And here is my experience:-

The building is a 1800 colonial home converted into a mosque.

The prayer hall is no larger than most people's master bedrooms (plus a few feet).

Just recently, about 80% of the building was engulfed in a fire.

Currently, there is only a mens hall available and part of the women's hall available.

At the moment there is no electricty. They are getting some help from next door church (they have provided an extension cord).

When there is Jumuah, the prayer is filled, some people have to pray outside or in the Shrine room. There is hardly any room for men. And keeping prudah will be very difficult because many times, due to the contraints the prayer line is not straight.

Before the fire, women could have prayed in the hall ABOVE, but that can no longer be the case. Is it not safe.

...

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

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Salaam alaikum,

In that case, it seems that the problem is just that there just isn't enough space for both the Brothers and Sisters. That makes more sense.

WaSalaam, Hajar

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Salaam Alaikum

no curtain needed or separator etc, just women have to be in a different section from males (most ppl hav them behind, if theyre on a side, Ive seen people use curtains.

While not posting a specific fatwa, I can say from personal experience that Ive been to shia conferences where everyone is praying in a huge room, or even out in the open air at a PARK/CAMPGROUND, led by high level scholars, the sisters behind the brothers, and no wall nor curtain separating them whatsoever.

so... same thing with separate entrances for males and females as well- stuff that people chose to incorporate for convenience (i.e modesty, cultural concerns, breastfeeding mothers, etc) rather than a specific thing

Leila

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... I am not sure of HIS basis but I do attend Jumuah Salat there. And here is my experience:-

The building is a 1800 colonial home converted into a mosque.

The prayer hall is no larger than most people's master bedrooms (plus a few feet).

Just recently, about 80% of the building was engulfed in a fire.

Currently, there is only a mens hall available and part of the women's hall available.

At the moment there is no electricty. They are getting some help from next door church (they have provided an extension cord).

When there is Jumuah, the prayer is filled, some people have to pray outside or in the Shrine room. There is hardly any room for men. And keeping prudah will be very difficult because many times, due to the contraints the prayer line is not straight.

Before the fire, women could have prayed in the hall ABOVE, but that can no longer be the case. Is it not safe.

...

Wa Salaam,

Dhulfiqar

salam,

he's refused to lead the sisters jamaat since before winter of 2002. the fire was in muharaam of this year.

bro dhulfiqar, i dont know if you attend the saturday madressa or not, but there arent that many people to cause a hazzard. and women cant pray upstairs? last sat we had a shortage of two sister teachers and we combined some classes and all the girls classes and the young children's mixed class were upstairs.

ulhumdullillah, Allah swt secured the floors even through the fire so that worshippers could come. during a majlis, i forget which mulana it was, but he is excellent, the entire women's area was jam packed, and i'm not exaggerating one bit. i imagine the brother's side was the same.

I think someone should ask him what he is basing this on.

thats a good idea, i'm sure an alim like himself has a very good reasoning. the sister who moved to london whom i was talking about before tried to change his views, but gave up. this sister was very knowlegdable, so i'm guessing the mulana had a good reason.

thank you all for your replys, the madressa has been through havoc these past couple of weeks so i havent been able to get anyone to speak with him, when things cool down a little, i'll get my auntie to have a chat with him.

jazakAllah.

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