Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
ShiaChat.com
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

What convinces you to be a Muslim/Chrsitian?

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

Guest DjibrilCisse

I am trying a new way of discussing/debating by starting from the very beginning and taking things one by one. I will appreciate your support but those who see problems with this system please let us all know.

So lets start like this:

1. Muslims, why did you embrace Islam?

2. Christians, why did you embrace Christianity?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 144
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Guest Old Marine Vet
2. Christians, why did you embrace Christianity?

I'm a Christian deist, I believe in the one God, and the existence of Jesus and the power of his message, which by its very words is self evident!

I do on the other hand, do not believe in the Trinity!

I also believe almost all organized religions are more of a hinderence to mankind then help, more people have been slaughtered and enslaved in the name of God through one organized religion or another, then any other means of war!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
I am trying a new way of discussing/debating by starting from the very beginning and taking things one by one. I will appreciate your support but those who see problems with this system please let us all know.

So lets start like this:

1. Muslims, why did you embrace Islam?

2. Christians, why did you embrace Christianity?

Sallams,

The reason why I am Shia Muslim is because the fundamental beliefs of Islam are based on common sense and reason.

Bahlool

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest DjibrilCisse

Nice start.

Old Marine what is RIGHT about Christianity that is WRONG about Islam?

And Bahlool, have you got an example of common sense and reason that are found in Islam but not in other religions- such as Christianity?

(An example would be how Islam allows divorce and Christianity doesnt. Islam allows two unhappy people to break their relationship yet Christianity forces them to live through thier misery.)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
I'm a Christian deist, I believe in the one God, and the existence of Jesus and the power of his message, which by its very words is self evident!

I do on the other hand, do not believe in the Trinity!

I also believe almost all organized religions are more of a hinderence to mankind then help, more people have been slaughtered and enslaved in the name of God through one organized religion or another, then any other means of war!

Hi,

I'm a Christian deist, I believe in the one God, and the existence of Jesus and the power of his message, which by its very words is self evident!

Yes that's something about you that confuses me. How can you be a Christian Deist? In what way did Jesus promote Deism?

I also believe almost all organized religions are more of a hinderence to mankind then help, more people have been slaughtered and enslaved in the name of God through one organized religion or another, then any other means of war!

Religion by defination means a way of life. Are you saying that we should not have an organized way of life? When people do bad things like wage an unjust way, the natural reaction is justify it. The most easiest and satisfying way to do it is to blame it all on God.

Bahlool

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
And Bahlool, have you got an example of common sense and reason that are found in Islam but not in other religions- such as Christianity?

(An example would be how Islam allows divorce and Christianity doesnt. Islam allows two unhappy people to break their relationship yet Christianity forces them to live through thier misery.)

Sallams,

I wouldn't go into the details such as divorce. Generally one would not abandon his or her faith based on the logic of divorce. It may be a factor in converting but not the sole criteria.

When judging which religion is right or wrong, one should evaluate the fundamentals on common sense. For example Fundamentals of Islam:

Oneness of God,

Justice of God,

Prophethood and leadership

Day of Judgement

Fundamentals of Christianity (correct me if I'm wrong):

Jesus incarnation of God,

Crucifixion

resurruction

Salvation concept

I feel interfaith debates would be more productive if it is concentrated at the basics rather than the details.

Wa'Sallam,

Bahlool

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

(bismillah)

(salam)

As Bro. Bahlool mentioned above, the fundamentals of Islam are based on reason and common sense. I've studied quite a few religions and sub-sects of Islam and the only religion I've seen whose idea of God is based on a logical foundation is that of Shi'ah Islam. Every religion, even monotheistic religions, have some sort of polytheistic-pollution in their idea of the Oneness of God.

The Ahlul-Bayt (as) are the next biggest reason for being Shi'ah. There is no historical personality that had the wisdom, knowledge, justice, bravery, piety, love, eloquence, etc. that the Ahlul-Bayt (as) did. I challenge anyone, and I will change my faith if you do, to produce a single person in history like Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasan, Husayn, and the children of Husayn.

The Qur'an would be the third reason. Aside from its miraculous nature, the sweet melodious sound when its recited, the exhortion to knowledge and wisdom, the absence of errors and contradictions, when I read it, it seems like this really is God talking. I don't just never get that feeling from reading any other religious scripture. The Bible, no offense to Christians, lacks that power and emotion the Qu'ran has. Time and time again it warms the heart and renews the faith.

And then Imam Husayn (as) and the tragedy of Karbala. There's no greater martyr and no greater tragedy in history than Husayn. The crucifixion story in Christianity just pales in comparision to Karbala.

Finally, all the wonderful supplications (duas), ziyarats, majalis, azadari, our knowledgable and pious clergy, etc. are just a few of the other reasons why I choose to be Shi'ah. :)

Edited by Ali786
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Old Marine Vet

Old Marine what is RIGHT about Christianity that is WRONG about Islam?

What is right about Christianity if the message of Jesus, what is wrong about it is the organized religions [Edited Out]izing it! The only organized Christian group that I have witnessed actually practicing what they preach on a large scale, and not just for P.R. value, is the Salavation Army, they are the only group I have actually donated any money to!

What is right about Islam, probably every Sura written during the Meccan era, what is wrong about Islam, almost every Sura written during the Medinah era and the actual actions of Mohammed in his conquests, this is very UN-Jesus like in message and action!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
I'm a Christian deist, I believe in the one God, and the existence of Jesus and the power of his message, which by its very words is self evident!

I do on the other hand, do not believe in the Trinity!

I also believe almost all organized religions are more of a hinderence to mankind then help, more people have been slaughtered and enslaved in the name of God through one organized religion or another, then any other means of war!

The last part of this statment about the cause of war is not true. ie WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Civil wars all across africa, wars of fuedal japan, etc. this statment has become a cliche coined by those who know nothing of history.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Old Marine Vet
Yes that's something about you that confuses me. How can you be a Christian Deist? In what way did Jesus promote Deism?

Here, this explains it better then I can,

Jesus was considered a religious heretic by the leaders of the organized religion in his time and place. Jesus was a Jew and his cultural religion was the traditional Jewish religion (an ancient form of what we now call "Judaism"). In his day, Judaism had accumulated a complex structure of religious "obligations" that were placed on Jews. The natural religion of Jesus reduced these obligations to two: love for God and love for neighbor.

Jesus referred to these two obligations as God's "commandments" (laws) or God's "word" (truth). Jesus taught that these two obligations are known by everyone because they are planted like a seed sown "in the heart" (Matthew 13:18-23).

Natural religion, as taught by Jesus, is based on these two natural laws that are inherent in human nature. Violation of these two laws by anyone is life-destructive. Obedience of these two laws is life-creative. This is known by human experience.

What Jesus meant by "love for God" and "love for neighbor" is defined by Jesus in his stories called "parables." Jesus believed that it was his mission, and ours, to establish the "kingdom of God" on earth. Jesus used the term "kingdom of God" to refer to the rule of God's laws in the lives of individuals and in human society.

We should note that the "gospel" that Jesus preached was, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15). In his "gospel," Jesus said nothing about "saving" anyone by Jesus' death (the "gospel" which is preached today in churches). Obviously, Jesus' death had not occurred at the time he asked people to "believe in the gospel." Jesus' "gospel" (good news) was about the "kingdom of God" on earth. This was the only "gospel" that Jesus knew.

The so-called "gospel" heard in churches today was developed by church councils over a period of four centuries. These councils modified the theology of Paul, a man who never claimed to have seen or heard Jesus except in a "vision" after the lifetime of Jesus. Paul was a Jew who interpreted Jesus' crucifixion as a sacrifice to God to atone for the sins of humankind. At the time when Jesus and Paul lived, a "ram without blemish" was sacrificed in the Jewish temple as a "guilt offering" to God as an atonement for sins. Paul used this as an analogy to interpret the crucifixion of Jesus as a sacrifice to atone for sins. (Romans 5:6-10; Ephesians 5:2).

Jesus opposed the concept of offering temple sacrifices to God. Jesus said, "Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice (Matthew 9:13). Here, Jesus is quoting the Hebrew prophet Hosea who claimed to be quoting God: "I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice; the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings" (Hosea 6:6).

The theological theory that Jesus sacrificed his life, as a substitute for us, to atone for (pay for) the sins of humankind is called the "substitutionary theory of the atonement." This theory, which was adopted in trinitarian Christianity, is contrary to the teachings of Jesus. Jesus made it very clear that God forgives us if we repent of our sins and we are willing to forgive others who sin against us (Matthew 18:23-35; Luke 11:4; Luke 17:3-4; Matthew 6:14-15; Luke 15:11-24).

It is important to know what Jesus meant by love for God, love for neighbor, repentance, and the kingdom of God on earth. These are key concepts in the natural religion of Jesus. Jesus explained the meanings of these concepts in his parables which I will present in this Web Page. In my view, life becomes more understandable from what we can learn in these parables.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest DjibrilCisse
I wouldn't go into the details such as divorce. Generally one would not abandon his or her faith based on the logic of divorce. It may be a factor in converting but not the sole criteria.

Just an example. I didnt want to go into detail since I was asking you the question but at the same time I didnt wanmt people to think I was doubting my religion.

What is right about Islam, probably every Sura written during the Meccan era, what is wrong about Islam, almost every Sura written during the Medinah era and the actual actions of Mohammed in his conquests, this is very UN-Jesus like in message and action!

Dont generalise- specify!

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Old Marine Vet
The last part of this statment about the cause of war is not true. ie WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Civil wars all across africa, wars of fuedal japan, etc. this statment has become a cliche coined by those who know nothing of history

Sorry, (fuedal Japan aside) but you are only talking about warfare in the 20th Century, if you look at most wars from ancient history till the 1600s most had religion as a large if not main cause for their being!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

I'm a Christian deist, I believe in the one God, and the existence of Jesus and the power of his message, which by its very words is self evident!

I do on the other hand, do not believe in the Trinity!

I also believe almost all organized religions are more of a hinderence to mankind then help, more people have been slaughtered and enslaved in the name of God through one organized religion or another, then any other means of war!

The last part of this statment about the cause of war is not true. ie WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Civil wars all across africa, wars of fuedal japan, etc. this statment has become a cliche coined by those who know nothing of history.

I agree. Probably ultra-nationalism and political ideology are more responsible for wars than religion is. Look at the bloodshed that communism has caused! Napoleonic wars, WW1 and 2, the Mongol and Hun invasions, not wars of religion. To say that religion is the chief cause for wars is false. Definitely, religion has been the cause for many wars (the spread of Islam, Crusades), but not the major cause. The bottom line is, people will always find something to fight about.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Old Marine Vet
Dont generalise- specify!

I have to generalise, otherwise I would have to write a novel!

You know exactly what I mean, all the suras of the meccan era were mostly a continuation of the one's given by Jesus, later when Mohammed took on the mantle of military leader, besides religious one, he changed in his message, the punative suras of Jihad and Jiyaza, and subjugation of Jews and Christians came about, the Banu Quraiza incident, the taking and selling of prisoners as slaves, it's like Mohammed started the Koran like it was the New Testement, and ended up putting in the fire and brimstone of the Old at the end.

This to me is not the message of Jesus, and certainly not something I wish to follow or believe.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Sorry, (fuedal Japan aside) but you are only talking about warfare in the 20th Century, if you look at most wars from ancient history till the 1600s most had religion as a large if not main cause for their being!

can you give me a example because besides say the crusades im drawing a blank

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
I have to generalise, otherwise I would have to write a novel!

You know exactly what I mean, all the suras of the meccan era were mostly a continuation of the one's given by Jesus, later when Mohammed took on the mantle of military leader, besides religious one, he changed in his message, the punative suras of Jihad and Jiyaza, and subjugation of Jews and Christians came about, the Banu Quraiza incident, the taking and selling of prisoners as slaves, it's like Mohammed started the Koran like it was the New Testement, and ended up putting in the fire and brimstone of the Old at the end.

This to me is not the message of Jesus, and certainly not something I wish to follow or believe.

lol

priceless

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Old Marine Vet
do christian diest have a organized church? Where is one in america? what is your structure like i mean with priest and what not?

The word "Deism" is derived from the Latin word for God: "Deus." Deism involves the belief in the existence of God, on purely rational grounds, without any reliance on revealed religion or religious authority.

Deists:

Do not follow the fundamental beliefs by most religions that God revealed himself to humanity through the writings of the Bible, the Qur'an or other religious texts.

Disagree with Atheists who assert that there is no evidence of the existence of God.

They regard their faith as a natural religion, as contrasted with one that is revealed by a God or which is artificially created by humans. They reason that since everything that exists has had a creator, then the universe itself must have been created by God. Thomas Paine concluded a speech shortly after the French Revolution with: "God is the power of first cause, nature is the law, and matter is the subject acted upon."

There are no Deist churches that I know of, but there are attempts at starting some in the process, but since the very nature of deism is anti-organized religion, I see that as self defeating.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Old Marine Vet
dont believe it no one is forcing you.

Banu Quraydha in every other message.

Its called obsession, OMV 

Yes, I find that little peice of history compelling, compelling in it's ghastly brutality, it was a percursor of what happend on a much larger scale in germany in WWII

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Sallams,

This to me is not the message of Jesus, and certainly not something I wish to follow or believe.

Jesus also said in the Bible that he has come to uphold the laws of Moses and not abolish them. The Old testament happens to be the laws of Moses.

Jesus was considered a religious heretic by the leaders of the organized religion in his time and place. Jesus was a Jew and his cultural religion was the traditional Jewish religion (an ancient form of what we now call "Judaism"). In his day, Judaism had accumulated a complex structure of religious "obligations" that were placed on Jews. The natural religion of Jesus reduced these obligations to two: love for God and love for neighbor.

Jesus referred to these two obligations as God's "commandments" (laws) or God's "word" (truth). Jesus taught that these two obligations are known by everyone because they are planted like a seed sown "in the heart" (Matthew 13:18-23).

Natural religion, as taught by Jesus, is based on these two natural laws that are inherent in human nature. Violation of these two laws by anyone is life-destructive. Obedience of these two laws is life-creative. This is known by human experience.

What Jesus meant by "love for God" and "love for neighbor" is defined by Jesus in his stories called "parables." Jesus believed that it was his mission, and ours, to establish the "kingdom of God" on earth. Jesus used the term "kingdom of God" to refer to the rule of God's laws in the lives of individuals and in human society.

We should note that the "gospel" that Jesus preached was, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel" (Mark 1:15). In his "gospel," Jesus said nothing about "saving" anyone by Jesus' death (the "gospel" which is preached today in churches). Obviously, Jesus' death had not occurred at the time he asked people to "believe in the gospel." Jesus' "gospel" (good news) was about the "kingdom of God" on earth. This was the only "gospel" that Jesus knew.

The so-called "gospel" heard in churches today was developed by church councils over a period of four centuries. These councils modified the theology of Paul, a man who never claimed to have seen or heard Jesus except in a "vision" after the lifetime of Jesus. Paul was a Jew who interpreted Jesus' crucifixion as a sacrifice to God to atone for the sins of humankind. At the time when Jesus and Paul lived, a "ram without blemish" was sacrificed in the Jewish temple as a "guilt offering" to God as an atonement for sins. Paul used this as an analogy to interpret the crucifixion of Jesus as a sacrifice to atone for sins. (Romans 5:6-10; Ephesians 5:2).

Jesus opposed the concept of offering temple sacrifices to God. Jesus said, "Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice (Matthew 9:13). Here, Jesus is quoting the Hebrew prophet Hosea who claimed to be quoting God: "I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice; the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings" (Hosea 6:6).

The theological theory that Jesus sacrificed his life, as a substitute for us, to atone for (pay for) the sins of humankind is called the "substitutionary theory of the atonement." This theory, which was adopted in trinitarian Christianity, is contrary to the teachings of Jesus. Jesus made it very clear that God forgives us if we repent of our sins and we are willing to forgive others who sin against us (Matthew 18:23-35; Luke 11:4; Luke 17:3-4; Matthew 6:14-15; Luke 15:11-24).

It is important to know what Jesus meant by love for God, love for neighbor, repentance, and the kingdom of God on earth. These are key concepts in the natural religion of Jesus. Jesus explained the meanings of these concepts in his parables which I will present in this Web Page. In my view, life becomes more understandable from what we can learn in these parables.

Wow! I totally agree with you man! 100%Nice! Thanks for posting this. Every enlightening for me. I never heard from a non-muslim source that Jesus had a Gospel. This is the first time.

Muslims believe the same thing. Jesus taught the Injeel, which is the Gospel of Jesus. Man made up his own Gospel, which the Christians are using.

I never thought I would say this but you're much more Muslim than you're Christian. Christians who believe in One Absolute God and the Gospel of Jesus have a special place in Islam. Infact they are almost considered to be Muslims.

Wa'Sallams,

Bahlool

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
dont believe it no one is forcing you.

Banu Quraydha in every other message.

Its called obsession, OMV 

Yes, I find that little peice of history compelling, compelling in it's ghastly brutality, it was a percursor of what happend on a much larger scale in germany in WWII

LOL my side hurts

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Old Marine Vet
I never thought I would say this but you're much more Muslim than you're Christian. Christians who believe in One Absolute God and the Gospel of Jesus have a special place in Islam. Infact they are almost considered to be Muslims.

Maybe I could become a muslim, or at least believe in the message of Mohammed, but unfortunately after reading some of the Medinah Suras, we have to part company!

Edited by Old Marine Vet
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Maybe I could become a muslim, or at least believe in the message of Mohammed, but unfortunately after reading some of the Medinah Suras, we have to part company!

maybe you should try reading the Madina suras again, using a decent commentary rather than wahhabi propaganda.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Maybe I could become a muslim, or at least believe in the message of Mohammed, but unfortunately are the Medinah Suras, we have to part company!

Sure you could become a Shia Muslim. :)

If Bill a Christian Vietnam Vet. can become a Shia on ShiaChat.com, then so can you.

6th post on this thread:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?ac...t=ST&f=9&t=3674

I don't understand something. You're whole adult life you dedicated it to fight in self defence. You even consider your collegues who kill in the name of self defending to be heros... why is it that when Islam teaches to fight in self defence you can't accept it.

Don't you believe that one should base his faith on reasoning. I find it reasonable to fight in self defence... what do you find reasonable about not fighting in self defence?

Since you believe that Prophet Jesus's message was against fighting under any circumstances, why did you spend most of your life fighting... why do you give respect to US soldiers & marines who defend America and are ready to Kill to defend their nation... why do you believe in "Give me freedom or give me death"...

regards,

Bahlool

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest DjibrilCisse

Brother Bahlool has once again posted a good post and I dont want to interrupt the flow since I mentioned that we go trhough one topic at a time- and thats what you people are doing more or less- good.

OMV, after replying to Bahlool do consider this at the end of your post:

Maybe I could become a muslim, or at least believe in the message of Mohammed, but unfortunately after reading some of the Medinah Suras, we have to part company!

Why not read the whole Quran and then decide? By reading one line you cant make a decision about the whole book. If you cant be bothered read it bit by bit. And if you STILL cant be bothered, well you cant exactly refute a religion you dont know do you?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Old Marine Vet
Why not read the whole Quran and then decide? By reading one line you cant make a decision about the whole book. If you cant be bothered read it bit by bit. And if you STILL cant be bothered, well you cant exactly refute a religion you dont know do you?

I have read enough of the good, and enough of the bad to realize that there would have to be another ten Korans written to erase the stuff I see in these Medina suras, and the history of Mohammed as given in the hadiths, (yes which I know you guys don't believe in).

I mean there is no doubt that Mohammed was a miltary genius, and I admire Geroge Patton also, I just don't think I would want to consider Patton as my role model for religious matters though!

I think that any messenger of God who starts conducting warfare, sort of gives up his credibility for speaking the message of God as being peace, love and forgiveness.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
I have read enough of the good, and enough of the bad to realize that there would have to be another ten Korans written to erase the stuff I see in these Medina suras, and the history of Mohammed as given in the hadiths, (yes which I know you guys don't believe in).

I mean there is no doubt that Mohammed was a miltary genius, and I admire Geroge Patton also, I just don't think I would want to consider Patton as my role model for religious matters though!

I think that any messenger of God who starts conducting warfare, sort of gives up his credibility for speaking the message of God as being peace, love and forgiveness.

oh so if someone comes and attacks your house, ur not gonna defend it?

I don't think so somehow.

READ HISTORY. HE WHO CONTROLS THE PAST CONTROLS THE FUTURE, SAID GEORGE ORWELL, FAMOUS ENGLISH WRITER

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Sallams,

I think that any messenger of God who starts conducting warfare, sort of gives up his credibility for speaking the message of God as being peace, love and forgiveness.

So what you're saying is that man should never go to war?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...