Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
ShiaChat.com
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

Christian Terrorist

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member

Is Terrorism Tied To Christian Sect?

Religion May Have Motivated Bombing Suspect

By Alan Cooperman

Washington Post Staff Writer

Monday, June 2, 2003; Page A03

The arrest of alleged Olympic bomber Eric Robert Rudolph may finally allow authorities to answer a question that has loomed since the beginning of the five-year hunt for him, but that has taken on deeper resonance since Sept. 11, 2001: Is he a "Christian terrorist"?

The question is not just whether Rudolph is a terrorist, or whether he considers himself a Christian. It is whether he planted bombs at the 1996 Olympic Games in Atlanta, two abortion clinics and a gay nightclub to advance a religious ideology -- and how numerous, organized and violent others who share that ideology may be.

Federal investigators believe Rudolph has had a long association with the radical Christian Identity movement, which asserts that North European whites are the direct descendants of the lost tribes of Israel, God's chosen people. Some investigators also think he may have written letters that claimed responsibility for the nightclub and abortion clinic bombings on behalf of the Army of God, a violent offshoot of Christian Identity.

"We declare and will wage total war on the ungodly communist regime in New York and your legaslative bureaucratic lackey's in Washington. It is you who are responsible and preside over the murder of children and issue the policy of ungodly preversion thats destroying our people," one of the letters said, in childish penmanship riddled with errors.

"Based on what we know of Rudolph so far, and admittedly it's fragmentary, there seems to be a fairly high likelihood that he can legitimately be called a Christian terrorist," said Michael Barkun, a professor of political science at Syracuse University who has been a consultant to the FBI on Christian extremist groups.

Investigators have said, however, that it is unclear whether Rudolph genuinely was part of an Army of God or merely claimed to belong to an organized group. According to Barkun, most Christian Identity followers are nonviolent, and the movement's militants generally adhere to the principle of "leaderless resistance," believing that government surveillance is so pervasive that organized groups are bound to be penetrated and it is wiser to act alone.

Another expert on such groups, Idaho State University sociology professor James A. Aho, said he is reluctant to use the phrase "Christian terrorist," because it is "sort of an oxymoron." (so is Muslim terrorist)

"I would prefer to say that Rudolph is a religiously inspired terrorist, because most mainstream Christians consider Christian Identity to be a heresy," Aho said. If Christians take umbrage at the juxtaposition of the words "Christian" and "terrorist," he added, "that may give them some idea of how Muslims feel" when they constantly hear the term "Islamic terrorism," especially since the Sept. 11 attacks.

"Religiously inspired terrorism is a worldwide phenomenon, and every major world religion has people who have appropriated the label of their religion in order to legitimize their violence," Aho said.

Not only in Rudolph's case, but also in the case of Oklahoma City bomber Timothy J. McVeigh and Muslim suicide bombers, "there's always the question of what comes first, is it the religious belief or the violent personality?" Aho said. "I'm inclined to believe that people who are violent in their inclinations search out a religious home that justifies their violence."

Rudolph, 36, appears to have found his religious home during his impoverished family's wanderings in his fatherless teenage years.

The FBI believes he was exposed to Christian Identity's ideology in the early 1980s when his mother brought him to live for four months with the Church of Israel, a congregation in Schell City, Mo. Federal investigators have said that after that experience, when he was about 14, Rudolph periodically made contact with Christian Identity groups, including the Aryan Nations, an Idaho-based group that has been influential in the militia movement.

But the Church of Israel's pastor, Dan Gayman, strongly disassociated himself from Rudolph in a telephone interview yesterday.

"We very clearly and emphatically teach that all Christians have a duty and an obligation to respect all law enforcement authorities. If Eric Rudolph had listened to his lessons here, he would have learned that acts of violence were absolutely and completely out of order and something this church would never have condoned," Gayman said.

Gayman, 66, recalled that Rudolph's mother arrived at the church in the Missouri Ozarks about 1981 or '82 with Eric and Jamie, one of his four brothers, and presented herself as a "widow in very destitute condition, with two boys to feed and without money to buy food or gas." He said his congregation took them in "just long enough for them to get back on their feet."

The Church of Israel does not call itself a Christian Identity congregation. But its teachings echo the movement's, which are generally traced to two 19th-century British ministers, John Wilson and Edward Hine, who justified colonialism on the grounds that the British nation was descended from the 10 lost tribes of biblical Israel.

Asked to explain the Church of Israel's racial views, Gayman said, "We teach that God is the creator of all races, that He created them separately and distinctly with their own unique talents and characteristics, and that every race has a purpose in God's plan."

As to the purpose of whites, he said: "I would simply say that we believe that the Caucasian people are the literal descendants of the lost 10 tribes of Israel, and they would occupy a place of prominence in the plan of God."

Because the Christian Identity movement is loosely organized and keeps no membership rolls, its numbers have been estimated at anywhere from 2,000 to 100,000, including many informal chapters in prisons. Many adherents are strongly anti-Semitic, considering themselves to be the true Israelites and Jews to be impostors.

Barkun said the anti-gay and antiabortion positions that may have motivated Rudolph's alleged bombings "are a rather subordinate theme" in Christian Identity. He noted, however, that members of Rudolph's extended family have said he viewed abortion not just as the taking of life, but as a threat to the white race.

"The notion that there are significant numbers of white mothers having abortions, and therefore the race is being endangered, is interesting, because racial genocide is a major theme in Christian Identity," Barkun said.

A deeper mystery, perhaps, is the motive for the Olympic bombing, which took place at a rock concert in downtown Atlanta, killing a 44-year-old woman and injuring more than 100 others. Barkun speculated that the Olympics "may have symbolized for Rudolph the mixing of races and cultures." Or, he said, the Games may have triggered "pervasive fear of a global tyranny run from the United Nations and destroying American independence and so on."

But, he added, "anti-Olympic sentiment is not a motif in Christian Identity, and it still strikes me as an odd target."

© 2003 The Washington Post Company

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Links here for more articles but you have to click today: http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/sept11/d...ailyUpdate.html

Daily Update

War on terror: Is Eric Rudolph a 'Christian terrorist'?

by Tom Regan| csmonitor.com

US Newswire reports that extremist chatter this week on the Internet praised alleged terrorist bomber Eric Rudolph as 'a hero.' The news agency also reports that some followers of hate groups are calling for further acts of violence to be modeled after the bombings he is accused of committing. Mr. Rudolph has connections to a number of anti-Semitic, racist, and antigovernment movements or groups, especially Christian Identity and the Missouri-based Church of Israel, headed by Dan Gayman.

The Washington Post looks at the role that religion played in Rudolph's alleged acts.

The arrest of the alleged Olympic bomber Eric Rudolph may allow authorities to answer a question that loomed at the beginning of the five-year hunt for him, but that has taken on deeper resonance since September 11, 2001: is he a Christian terrorist? The question is whether he planted bombs at the 1996 Atlanta Olympics, two abortion clinics and a gay nightclub to advance a religious ideology.

"Based on what we know of Rudolph so far . . . there seems to be a fairly high likelihood that he can legitimately be called a Christian terrorist," said Michael Barkun, who teaches political science at Syracuse University, and who has been a consultant to the FBI on extremist groups. The Post also quotes another expert on such groups, Idaho State University sociology professor James A. Aho, who said he is reluctant to use the phrase "Christian terrorist," because it is "sort of an oxymoron."

"I would prefer to say that Rudolph is a religiously inspired terrorist, because most mainstream Christians consider Christian Identity to be a heresy," Aho said. If Christians take umbrage at the juxtaposition of the words "Christian" and "terrorist," he added, "that may give them some idea of how Muslims feel" when they constantly hear the term "Islamic terrorism," especially since the Sept. 11 attacks. Religiously inspired terrorism is a worldwide phenomenon, and every major world religion has people who have appropriated the label of their religion in order to legitimize their violence," Aho said.

But Gary Bauer, former Republican presidential candidate and president of American Values, writing on Crosswalk.com, challenged Prof. Aho's contentions that all religions have adherents who try to twist religion to suit their message.

Is the professor really this ignorant? Assuming Eric Rudolph committed these crimes, he cannot find one word in the teachings of Christ to justify them. Nor will he find any theological leader of any branch of Christianity willing to defend his criminal conduct. No Christian neighborhoods burst into celebration at the news of the bombings. Nor are Christian children being taught that if Rudolph had died in his attacks he would be a "martyr" welcomed into heaven.

But pieces in both the New York Times and the Washington Post report that in western North Carolina where Rudolph was captured, many of those who share his religious views are quick to offer him their support. Christianity Today's weblog offers a variety of viewpoints on the issue, including a piece that says Rudolph was actually angry with the FDA, which had refused to allow a drug he believed would help his father.

Last year Bruce Hoffman on the Rand Corporation did an interview with Religioscope that talked about the differing opinions on "religious terrorism." Mr. Hoffman's view is that religious beliefs are to a large extent instrumentalized by various terrorist groups.

Religion’s importance in contemporary terrorism is as a means of communication. It really shows how religion is being twisted. Bin Laden himself does not have any theological credentials, yet he issues fatwas because he knows people will listen to them, that it is an enormously helpful means to enhance his message to attract new support – and truly is a perversion of religion. Now you do of course have clerical figures in Islam, in Judaism, in white supremacist Christian Churches in the United States, using liturgy to justify violence, including Bin Laden citing the Quran again, a perverse interpretation of it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Old Marine Vet

Hey, at least in the U.S. he was hunted down like the dog he is, in the Middle east, a Muslim terrorist is a hero, and a lot of the countries there will put him up like he's a V.I.P.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Hey, at least in the U.S. he was hunted down like the dog he is, in the Middle east, a Muslim terrorist is a hero, and a lot of the countries there will put him up like he's a V.I.P.

what do you think our afghan brothers are doing in afghanistan along the border right now? or the puppet arab governments .. man, you're too easy sometimes ... there is no substance to your arguements anymore ...

Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

(salam)

When I was looking through the General Discussion forum, I came across a thread about Hitler.

Now Old Marine Vet said:

Hey, at least in the U.S. he was hunted down like the dog he is, in the Middle east, a Muslim terrorist is a hero, and a lot of the countries there will put him up like he's a V.I.P.

Lets see two photos on How Hitler was PRAISED by Christians first and then lets read a few of Hitler's on words:

hitler%26bishop.gif

Hitler wth Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin

On April 20, 1939, Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars."

Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell

Hitler-with-Muller.jpg

Hitler greets Muller the "Bishop of the Reich" and Abbot Schachleitner

I guess Christians really did Love this guy. Pictures speak for themselves.

Bishops-salute-Hitler.jpg

Catholic Bishops giving the Nazi salute in honor of Hitler

I guess the Christian clergy had Much Love for this man.

The Words of Hitler

Hitler considered himself a Catholic until the day he died. In 1941 he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." In fact, Hitler was never excommunicated from the Catholic Church, and Mein Kampf was not placed on the Church's Index of Forbidden Books.

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

What ever happened to these TRUE CHRISTIANS?

(salam)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Hi Roya,

For the sake of argument, let's say that Rudolph is a Christian. Therefore, should the baby be tossed out with the bath water?

If Rudolph is a Christian, he has set a rotten example of Christianity. Come to the baby, but don't swallow the bath water.

Peace,

Day

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell

I guess Christians really did Love this guy. Pictures speak for themselves.

[Day] The Vatican and the Third Reich had one thing in common: Destruction. The non-Christian Furher destroyed bodies with death chambers. The non-Christian Vatican destroys souls with false doctrine.

Hitler considered himself a Catholic until the day he died. In 1941 he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." In fact, Hitler was never excommunicated from the Catholic Church, and Mein Kampf was not placed on the Church's Index of Forbidden Books.

[Day] Being Catholic, or Protestant, DOES NOT not make anyone a Christian.

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them

[Day] Shows you how warped this diabolical geek was. Where did Jesus ever summons anyone to fight against the Jews?

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

What ever happened to these TRUE CHRISTIANS?

[Day] I suspect both are in hot water right now, and for all eternity. True Christians? You can't be serious.

Peace,

DAY

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Old Marine Vet
So if these people are not true Christians then why do you people take the radicals as being True Muslims?

Because nowhere in the bible does the message from Christ validate such actions, yet in the Koran we have,

"O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers (non-Muslims) who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)."

(Koran 9:123)

"O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

(Koran 5:51)

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers (become Muslims) and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

(Koran 9:5)

"O ye who believe! Take not for friends Unbelievers (non-Muslims) rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?"

(Koran 4:144)

"Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers (non-Muslims). Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide."

(Koran 5:80)

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."

(Koran 9:29)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
"O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers (non-Muslims) who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)."

(Koran 9:123)

fighting in self defense! . Why do you have such a problem with that. You were willing enough to go to Vietnam and kill people because they were 'different' from you, but when Muslims want to fight back in self defense you seem to have a major problem with that.

"O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

(Koran 5:51)

This verse means that do not take Jews and Christians as friends in matters of religion... read further and the meaning will be clear. Verse 57 says" [shakir 5:57] O you who believe! do not take for guardians those who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among those who were given the Book before you and the unbelievers; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers."

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers (become Muslims) and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

(Koran 9:5)

Talk about reading what you want... why did you not quote the verses before and after ? The verse before says:

[shakir 9:4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

and the verse after says:

[shakir 9:6] And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

This verse is referring to people who violate peace treaties.

Next time read the verses before and after before coming to conclusions.

regards,

Bahlool

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Old Marine Vet

Care to explain this one away? Or can't ya?

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection."

(Koran 9:29)

So I guess you are to fight the Christians and Jews until we submit and pay the tax?

But even if you do that, according to your Hadith, aren't you supposed to hunt down and kill the jews on judgement day??

Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said, 'The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.'"

(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177)

And talk about cruel and unusual punishment?

"Narrated Anas: 'Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet (Muhammed) and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine. They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophet ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die.'"

(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 8:82:794)

Some how those messages of peace doesn't match up well with the message of Jesus!

Edited by Old Marine Vet
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
So I guess you are to fight the Christians and Jews until we submit and pay the tax?

I guess you will arrest Muslims in US if we don't pay tax?

As far as I know in US, if you don't pay tax one may very well end up in jail.

When the Quran says Fight it doesn't necessarily mean to chop their heads off. Fight in the english language itself has various meanings:

noun: any contest or struggle

noun: an intense verbal dispute (Example: "A violent fight over the bill is expected in the Senate")

verb: make a strenuous or labored effort

etc...

But even if you do that, according to your Hadith, aren't you supposed to hunt down and kill the jews on judgement day??

"and the trees and the rocks will call out, Oh muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him!"

Sunni Hadith...

Some how that message of peace doesn't match up well with the message of Jesus!

The message of all Prophets were the same. In Islam fighting is only allowed in self defense. What I find Ironic is that you were in the military, fought in Vietnam, but when a religion preaches to fight in self-defense all of a sudden you have a problem with that. Why?

Islam is a practical religion. Imagine if US were to follow the message of Absolute peace and not fighting back in self defense. Whahabbis would have taken over it long back... Osama would have been president.

regards,

Bahlool

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Sallams,

I agree...

Allah's Apostle (Muhammed) said, 'The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.'"

(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177)

This is ridiculous...

and this is...

"Narrated Anas: 'Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet (Muhammed) and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine. They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophet ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die.'"

(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 8:82:794)

totally sick :sick:

If you want to know why there are differences between sunni and Shia hadith... you'll have to go into history. It's too long to get into the details now... but in short during the time of the Prophet there were Power hungry people, who on the death of the Prophet took over the caliphate and made up false hadith of the Prophet to justify their actions.

regards,

Bahlool

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Old Marine Vet
If you want to know why there are differences between sunni and Shia hadith... you'll have to go into history. It's too long to get into the details now... but in short during the time of the Prophet there were Power hungry people, who on the death of the Prophet took over the caliphate and made up false hadith of the Prophet to justify their actions.

I'm glad to hear that you believe that stuff is sick, because it is!

Problem is you are Shias, which are only 15% of Islam, am I not correct?

Of the other 85%, how many actually believe it as gospel?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

So if these people are not true Christians then why do you people take the radicals as being True Muslims?

[Day] Muslims, radical Muslims, Hitler and the Vatican all have one thing in common. None are Christian. I'm not saying that there aren't some real Christians in Catholicism, but certain key doctrinal teachings that come out of the Vatican reveal it to be teaching a gospel that is not of Christ. The Vatican accepts the death and resurrection of Jesus. But this doesn't nesessarily mean that someone is a Christian. Anyone can say he believes that Jesus died and rose, but if his life does not exemplify the life and teachings of Jesus (the Bible), he is only a "nominal" Christian at best. Repentance and faith in Jesus Christ alone is what saves a person. The problem is, many have what we call "head" faith. That won't save anyone. This kind of faith is intellectual and merely believes historical facts about Jesus. It is faith of the heart that turns the tide. The difference between "head" faith and "heart" faith is where one will spend eternity. The devil believes there is one God, but where will he spend all eternity?

Radical Muslim, or not, the religion of Isalm cannot save a person because it does not believe that Jesus died for sins and was raised from the dead. Outside of Christ, it doesn't matter what one does to remain lost. We all need the saving grace of God through Jesus Christ who died for our sins and rose from the dead to save us from them. Muslims, radical or not, must be willing to repent of their sins and trust in Jesus alone for eternal life. That alone will save you.

I know this teaching is anathema to Muslims, but I believe that Muhammad never faced true Christianity and was probably influenced by some "Nestorian Christians" who did not reveal the true gospel of Jesus. So claiming to be writing under the influence of Allah, he only wrote according to the distorted views of Christianity he received from these people. This may not be the only reason because anyone who does not have the influence of the Holy Spirit in his life cannot write about true Christianity anyway. The net effect of this sad combination will result in false religion. Muhammed was under the influence of a spirit that was not of God. Had he truly repented and trusted in Christ as his Savior, Muhammed could have been a tremendous influence for God in the world.

Can you see why it doesn't make any difference it makes if one is radical or not, of any religion. If that person does not have Jesus Christ as his personal Savior and Lord, he can be as mild, or as radical as he wants. He is lost without Jesus. That is the fundamental teaching of Jesus and the Apostles.

I pray that you will to know the person of Jesus through repentance and faith in him.

Grace and peace,

Day

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
So if these people are not true Christians then why do you people take the radicals as being True Muslims?

[Day]  Muslims, radical Muslims, Hitler and the Vatican all have one thing in common.  None are Christian.  I'm not saying that there aren't some real Christians in Catholicism, but certain key doctrinal teachings that come out of the Vatican reveal it to be teaching a gospel that is not of Christ. The Vatican accepts the death and resurrection of Jesus.  But this doesn't nesessarily mean that someone is a Christian.  Anyone can say he believes that Jesus died and rose, but if his life does not exemplify the life and teachings of Jesus (the Bible), he is only a "nominal" Christian at best. Repentance and faith in Jesus Christ alone is what saves a person.  The problem is, many have what we call "head" faith.  That won't save anyone.  This kind of faith is intellectual and merely believes historical facts about Jesus. It is faith of the heart that turns the tide.  The difference between "head" faith and "heart" faith is where one will spend eternity. The devil believes there is one God, but where will he spend all eternity?

Radical Muslim, or not, the religion of Isalm cannot save a person because it does not believe that Jesus died for sins and was raised from the dead. Outside of Christ, it doesn't matter what one does to remain lost. We all need the saving grace of God through Jesus Christ who died for our sins and rose from the dead to save us from them.  Muslims, radical or not, must be willing to repent of their sins and trust in Jesus alone  for eternal life. That alone will save you.

I know this teaching is anathema to Muslims, but I believe that Muhammad never faced true Christianity and was probably influenced by some "Nestorian Christians" who did not reveal the true gospel of Jesus.  So claiming to be writing under the influence of Allah, he only wrote according to the distorted views of Christianity he received from these people.  This may not be the only reason because anyone who does not have the influence of the Holy Spirit in his life cannot write about true Christianity anyway.  The net effect of this sad combination will result in false religion.  Muhammed was under the influence of a spirit that was not of God. Had he truly repented and trusted in Christ as his Savior, Muhammed could have been a tremendous influence for God in the world.

Can you see why it doesn't make any difference it makes if one is radical or not, of any religion.  If that person does not have Jesus Christ as his personal Savior and Lord, he can be as mild, or as radical as he wants.  He is lost without Jesus.  That is the fundamental teaching of Jesus and the Apostles.

I pray that you will to know the person of Jesus through repentance and faith in him.

Grace and peace,

Day

Hi,

I think in you're point of view you're making too many assumptions and jumping to conclusions about Islam and Prophet Mohammed. You believe that your concept of God is the truth and the rest of the world is wrong. I can understand that but I'm curious to know how did you come to that conclusion.

There are thousands of other religions in the world (Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Shintoism and all the other isms)... so what criteria do you use to judge what is the truth and what is not?

regards,

Bahlool

Edited by Bahlool
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Old Marine Vet
Hi,

I don't think any sane person believes in this stuff. It's unfortunate this kind of trash exists in the books of 85% of the Muslims... but I can assure you they don't accept it.

Bahlool

One can only hope, but I believe there more then enough out there to take this stuff verbatim, also a lot of the Suras from the Medinah era are troubling too!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Hi,

I don't think any sane person believes in this stuff. It's unfortunate this kind of trash exists in the books of 85% of the Muslims... but I can assure you they don't accept it.

Bahlool

One can only hope, but I believe there more then enough out there to take this stuff verbatim, also a lot of the Suras from the Medinah era are troubling too!

I didn't find anything disturbing? Read the verses before and the verses after... you won't find anything disturbing :)

Maybe you could open a new thread and let us know what you find disturbing.

If you don't have a quran at home, use the online Quran : http://www.al-islam.org/quran to read the verses before and after to understand the context.

regards,

Bahlool

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is for Daystar who is avioding the issues and condemning 95% of the Christian world. Who rambles on about Jesus being the salvation. I say to you what the Most Holy Quran says:

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

1. Say: O disbelievers,

2. I serve not what you serve,

3. Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve,

4. Nor shall I serve that which ye serve,

5. Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve,

6. For you is your recompense and for me my recompense.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Old Marine Vet

I have read them in the context to the previous and following text, and still find them repugnant.

Maybe Muslims are more conditioned to a punative religion, most westerners aren't.

The vast majority of americans cannot fathom a death sentence Fatwa for someone who simply wrote a critical book that muslims found insulting!

This goes way beyond the pale!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
I have read them in the context to the previous and following text, and still find them repugnant.

Maybe Muslims are more conditioned to a punative religion, most westerners aren't.

The vast majority of americans cannot fathom a death sentence Fatwa for someone who simply wrote a critical book that muslims found insulting!

This goes way beyond the pale!

It aint critical - its blasphemy.

I would like to see what would happen to someone who wrote anything against Bush or the Queen and managed to escape punishment.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

This is for Daystar who is avioding the issues and condemning 95% of the Christian world. Who rambles on about Jesus being the salvation. I say to you what the Most Holy Quran says:

[Day] I don't believe I have avoided anything. Please be specific. 95% of the world is not Catholic; more like 20%. I don't condemn anyone, but it is true that most Catholics do not admit to being "born again," which Jesus said one must be to enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:3). Those who reject being born again condemn themselves. One is born again through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. Without Christ, there is no hope of eternal life.

Grace and peace,

Day

Link to post
Share on other sites

Daystar, my friend there are 989,366,000 PLUS Catholics in this World and that is more then 90% of the CHRISTIAN POPULATION.

Your following a heretrodox group. Why should we consider your heresies as true interpretation well there is this Vicar of Christ on Earth called the Pope?

Look what the Pope thinks about the Teachings of the Holy Prophet pbuh

popekiss.jpg

The Vatican says "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, (Ignatius Press, 1994) Para. 841 Hereafter Catechism 5. Vatican Council II: The Conciliar and Post Conciliar Documents, No. 56, Nostra Aetate, Austin P. Flannery, ed. (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdsmans Publishing Co., 1975 & 1984) Vol. I., pp. 739-740. Hereafter Vatican II.)

The Catholic Church states that the Pope is Infallible.

Here check this article out:

http://www.lumenverum.com/apologetics/pope.htm

But let me guess Daystar these arn't true Christians right? Only you and your minority of heretics are? :!!!:

^_^ Peace Daystar.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Daystar, my friend there are 989,366,000 PLUS Catholics in this World and that is more then 90% of the CHRISTIAN POPULATION.

Your following a heretrodox group. Why should we consider your heresies as true interpretation well there is this Vicar of Christ on Earth called the Pope?

Look what the Pope thinks about the Teachings of the Holy Prophet pbuh

popekiss.jpg

The Vatican says "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, (Ignatius Press, 1994) Para. 841 Hereafter Catechism 5. Vatican Council II: The Conciliar and Post Conciliar Documents, No. 56, Nostra Aetate, Austin P. Flannery, ed. (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdsmans Publishing Co., 1975 & 1984) Vol. I., pp. 739-740. Hereafter Vatican II.)

The Catholic Church states that the Pope is Infallible.

Here check this article out:

http://www.lumenverum.com/apologetics/pope.htm

But let me guess Daystar these arn't true Christians right? Only you and your minority of heretics are? :!!!:

^_^ Peace Daystar.

Hmmm should I be glad Muslims are on the side of the RCC? :huh: Anyway, what I don't get is that protestants never hassle Eastern Orthodox Christians. In many ways they are more "guilty" than us in their practices.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Old Marine Vet
It aint critical - its blasphemy.

I would like to see what would happen to someone who wrote anything against Bush or the Queen and managed to escape punishment.

What are you talking about?

There is a multitude of books written aand published and commentators and comedians who have made a cottage industry saying nasty things about both, no one is sentenced to death, or even arrested for that, but's that's the difference between a country that has a secular government with freedom of speech provisions in it's Constitution, and a despotic Theocracy!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually the person who shot the Pope, Agca is said to have converted to Christianity in the Italian jails. The Pope forgave him in person. Besides Agca was not a Muslim Radical. He ven wrote a book claiming to be the Islamic Messiah in the late 80's and that the Pope was the Antichrist. His premonitions were all part of his ego satisfaction. Primarily for such absurd claims His Muslim standing is doubtful before He even had shot the Pope.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Daystar, my friend there are 989,366,000 PLUS Catholics in this World and that is more then 90% of the CHRISTIAN POPULATION.

[Day] Sorry I haven't responded sooner as I was having probelms with my modem. I hope is ok now.

If Jesus said you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3), and someone says he is not born again, then there is a problem if he says he is a Christian. It is the new birth (being born again) that makes you a Christian, not just belonging to this or that church. It is a fact that most Catholics do not admit to being born again. Yet Jesus said you must be.

Your following a heretrodox group. Why should we consider your heresies as true interpretation well there is this Vicar of Christ on Earth called the Pope?

[Day] My "heresy" is that I believe you must be born again to enter the kindgom of God.

Look what the Pope thinks about the Teachings of the Holy Prophet pbuh

The Vatican says "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

[Day] Do you trust the Pope more than Jesus? If the Pope said that acknowledging the Creator will save someone then he needs to study his Bible more often. it teaches no such thing. What do you mean by the "faith of Abraham?"

The Catholic Church states that the Pope is Infallible.

Here check this article out:

[Day] I assume you believe that the Pope believes the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Yet, the Vatican teaches that Mary was sinless. But why would she say she needed a Savior if she was without sin? (Luke 1:47)

This is not what I would call infallibility.

http://www.lumenverum.com/apologetics/pope.htm

But let me guess Daystar these arn't true Christians right? Only you and your minority of heretics are? :!!!:

[Day] Again, my heresy is that I believe Jesus. You must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. Would you like to be born again?

Grace and peace,

Day

Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

Do you trust the Pope more than Jesus? If the Pope said that acknowledging the Creator will save someone then he needs to study his Bible more often. it teaches no such thing. What do you mean by the "faith of Abraham?"

Well my friend, the Pope is the supposed Vicar of Christ on Earth. So he represents Jesus. So if he said that Muslims can go to heaven according to the Christian religion without accepting Jesus as his Lord and Savior, and also the Pope Kissed the Most Holy Quran and showed his respect to the religion of the Holy Prophet pbuh. Who then are you to say that He is mistaken?

Go purchase yourself a Cathecism and learn your religion. Quit your heresy.

Read and Repent:

MUHAMMAD?

by Pope John Paul II in "Crossing the Threshold of Hope"

A very different discussion, obviously, is the one that leads us to the synagogues and mosques, where those who worship the One God assemble. Yes, certainly it is a different case when we come to these great monotheistic religions, beginning with Islam. In the Declaration Nostra Aetate we read: "The Church also has a high regard for the Muslims, who worship one God, living and subsistent, merciful and omnipotent, the Creator of heaven and earth" (Nostra Aetate 3). As a result of their monotheism, believers in Allah are particularly close to us.

I remember an event from my youth. In the convent of the Church of Saint Mark in Florence, we were looking at the frescoes by Fra Angelico. At a certain point a man joined us who, after sharing his admiration for the work of this great religious artist, immediately added: "But nothing can compare to our magnificent Muslim monotheism." His statement did not prevent us from continuing the visit and the conversation in a friendly tone. It was on that occasion that I got a kind of first taste of the dialogue between Christianity and Islam, which we have tried to develop systematically in the post-conciliar period.

Whoever knows the Old and New Testaments, and then reads the Koran, clearly sees the process by which it completely reduces Divine Revelation. It is impossible not to note the movement away from what God said about Himself, first in the Old Testament through the Prophets, and then finally in the New Testament through His Son. In Islam all the richness of God's self-revelation, which constitutes the heritage of the Old and New Testaments, has definitely been set aside.

Some of the most beautiful names in the human language are given to the God of the Koran, but He is ultimately a God outside of the world, a God who is only Majesty, never Emmanuel, God-with-us. Islam is not a religion of redemption. There is no room for the Cross and the Resurrection. Jesus is mentioned, but only as a prophet who prepares for the last prophet, Muhammad. There is also mention of Mary, His Virgin Mother, but the tragedy of redemption is completely absent. For this reason not only the theology but also the anthropology of Islam is very distant from Christianity.

Nevertheless, the religiosity of Muslims deserves respect. It is impossible not to admire, for example, their fidelity to prayer. The image of believers in Allah who, without caring about time or place, fall to their knees and immerse themselves in prayer remains a model for all those who invoke the true God, in particular for those Christians who, having deserted their magnificent cathedrals, pray only a little or not at all.

The Council has also called for the Church to have a dialogue with followers of the "Prophet," and the Church has proceeded to do so. We read in Nostra Aetate: "Even if over the course of centuries Christians and Muslims have had more than a few dissensions and quarrels, this sacred Council now urges all to forget the past and to work toward mutual understanding as well as toward the preservation and promotion of social justice, moral welfare, peace, and freedom for the benefit of all mankind" (Nostra Aetate 3).

From this point of view, as I have already mentioned, the meetings for prayer held at Assisi (especially that for peace in Bosnia, in 1993), certainly played a significant role. Also worthwhile were my meetings with the followers of Islam during my numerous apostolic trips to Africa and Asia, where sometimes, in a given country, the majority of the citizens were Muslims. Despite this, the Pope was welcomed with great hospitality and was listened to with similar graciousness.

The trip I made to Morocco at the invitation of King Hassan II can certainly be defined as a historic event. It was not simply a courtesy visit, but an event of a truly pastoral nature. The encounter with the young people at Casablanca Stadium (1985) was unforgettable. The openness of the young people to the Pope's words was striking when he spoke of faith in the one God. It was certainly an unprecedented event.

Nevertheless, concrete difficulties are not lacking. In countries where fundamentalist movements come to power, human rights and the principle of religious freedom are unfortunately interpreted in a very one-sided way-religious freedom comes to mean freedom to impose on all citizens the "true religion." In these countries the situation of Christians is sometimes terribly disturbing. Fundamentalist attitudes of this nature make reciprocal contacts very difficult. All the same, the Church remains always open to dialogue and cooperation.

Now do you deny your Vicar of Christ?

(salam)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member

Sorry I didn't get back to you on this, but I did post a lengthy response which I lost when my computer froze up. It's been happening alot lately and I will have to get a new computer.

Let me just sum up by saying that Protestants have trouble with Vatican doctrine and the affairs of its past (and present). The Pope is not "my Vicar." Some Christians believe a certain Pope will be Dajjal. While I believe there has been anti-christian doctrine coming out of the Vatican, I don't believe a Pope will be dajjal (the antichrist). The Vatican has forgotten that God's kingdom is not of this world, rather the Vatican has attempted to force its kingdom upon men through Church/State alliances. No doubt, there are Christians in the Roman Catholic Church, but I would say that most are not because they believe things that the Bible does not teach, not the least of which is salvation through works. That is a damnable heresy because it denies salvation by grace. The Vatican also seems to place an unwarrated reverence for Mary to the point that she is the object of prayer. I have even heard where the Vatican has all but proclaimed her as "co-redeemer" with Christ. That too is heresy.

Don't make the mistake of comparing the Papal System with traditional Christianity.

Grace and peace,

Day

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...