Search the Community

Why was the belief of the Trinity not rampant within the first 300 years of Christendom? Do the scholars of today know more than the Church Fathers of old? Why did it only come during the time of Tertullian as opposed to everyone preceding him? Why did the Apostles not mention any of this in their writings? Why are the four synoptic Gospels attributed to the Apostles when it is clear that they are anonymous?

Peace be upon you guys this my refute on the trinity which I wrote a while back but have not posted, I felt that it needed some final touches which I finished I hope you guys can benefit from this refute. The refute of the Trinity Many trinitarians claim that they believe in one God, but can not explain the doctrine of trinity since it limits God or becomes irrational, in one why or another it does not make sense nor is it supported by scripture at all. The doctrine of the trinity is believed to be The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. They are 3 distinct persons that are of one essence( or substance) and are equal persons that are co-eternal but are one. Some “trinitarians” believe that God the Father takes on three modes, He takes on the Son and The Holy Spirit and also returns back to being God the Father. These “trinitarians” are not regarded as trinitarians despite their claim of saying they are trinitarian, in reality, theologically they are not trinitarian rather they are modalists. Does the Law of Moses recognise the trinity? Do the unaltered scribes and book of the prophets recognise the trinity ? Deuteronomy 4:15-19 And you shall watch yourselves very well, for you did not see any form on the day that the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire. Lest you become corrupt and make for yourselves a graven image, the representation of any form, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the heavens, the likeness of anything that crawls on the ground, likeness of any fish that is in the waters, beneath the earth. And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heavens, which the LORD your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them.” Exodus 20:2-5 “I am the Lord, your God, who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the houses of bondage. You shall have no other gods upon My face. You shall not make for yourselves a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth. You shall neither prostrate yourself before them nor worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a zealous God, who visits the iniquity of the father’s upon the sons, upon the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me...” “There is no one like The Lord our God” -exodus 8:10 “The Lord He is God; there is none other besides Him” -Deuteronomy 4:35 “The Lord He is God; in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other” -Deuteronomy 4:39 “See now that I, I am He, And there is no God besides me” -Deuteronomy 32:39 “Hear O’Israel The Lord our God, The Lord is one” -Deuteronomy 6:4 Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man, that he should lie, not a Son of Man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?” Malachi 3:6 “For I the Lord do not change.” Isaiah 44:24 “Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone” 2 Chronicles 6:18 But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built! 2 Chronicles 2:6 But who is able to build a temple for Him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain Him? Who then am I to build a temple for Him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before Him? 1 Chronicles 17:20 “O Lord, there is none like You, and there is no god beside You according to all that we have heard with our ears.” “You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth” -2Kings 19:15 “You are great, O Lord God; for there is non like You, Nor there is any God beside You” -2 Samuel 7:22 “The Lord is God there is no else” -1 King 8:60 “You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth” -2Kings 19:15 “You alone, Lord, is God” Isaiah 37:20 Before there was no God formed, And there will be none after me” -Isaiah 43:10 “I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides me” - Isaiah 44:6 “ I am the Lord, and there is no other; Beside me there is no God” Isaiah 45:5 “Surely God is with you and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14 “Is it not I, The Lord? And there is No other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior,There is none except Me” Isaiah 45:21 “I am God, and there’s no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9 Isaiah 40:25 “To whom will you compare Me? Or is my equal? Says the Holy One.“ Isaiah 40:18 “To whom will you liken God? To what image will you compare Him?“ Isaiah 46:5 “With whom will you compare Me or count Me equal ? To whom will you compare Me so we are alike?” Says the Lord” Isaiah 45:6 “In order that they know from the shining of the sun and from the west that there is no one besides Me; I am Lord and there is no other.” The Law and the prophets make it clear that God is one wholly, and their no other god next to God and He is omnipresent (everywhere). Jews and the prophets believe God is one Wholly and He is omnipresent, omnipotent, the All knowing, the All Seeing, transcendent, He is out of time and space, He is not confined in a place and has no abode and their is no other god next to Him and no one is like Him. Trinitarians say that God is a spirit, this teaching is from a pagan called tertullian. “Under the influence of Stoic philosophy, Tertullian believes that all real things are material. God is a spirit, but a spirit is a material thing made out of a finer sort of matter.” ‘History of Trinitarian doctrines, stanford Encyclopedia of philosophy’. He(Tertullian) believed that God is a spirit, this contradicts the Law and the prophets. The Law makes it clear that God is not a spirit and has no form, nor does God have a spirit like humans do. If God was a spirit(I.e an angelic figure) then he would be limited, since He will be no longer the All-seeing, nor omnipresent nor omnipotent and is no longer Transcendent since humans can see spirits(angels) and no longer unique since he is like a spirit which contradicts the Law. If God was a spirit like our spirit which we have, then He would be very limited aswell and also makes God like human beings which makes us gods going by tertullian’s pagan teaching since God is a spirit like our spirit which then contradicts the Law and the prophets. Trinitarians say that God exists in The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. They are three distinct persons who are of the same essence( or substance). Heres the first problem, if the Son and the Holy Spirit share the same essence(or substance) as God the father, then they are also a God beside God the Father since they are of one essence(or substance) and distinct persons. How many Gods do we have now... three or one ? The second problem, other trinitarians say God the father exists in the Son and the Holy Spirit and the Father at the exact same time, the problem arises then if God the Father is the Son, the Holy Spirit and the Father at the same time then God is omnipresent and at the exact same time not omnipresent , and omnipotent and at the exact same time not omnipotent, and All-Seeing and the exact same time not All-seeing, And Transcendent and at exact same time not Transcendent, limited and unlimited at the exact same time. That’s absolutely irrational and illogical. 3. trinitarians say that, God; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons who are of the same essence(or substance) but are one. In the 2nd paragraph two of the trinitarian philosophies have been refuted. Now we know that the Holy Spirit and the Son are really limited and have a form and an abode since they are obviously physical beings, that which has these attributes are not to be worshipped nor worthy of worship. Some trinitarians hint out or imply that The Father, the Son and Holy Spirit together make a powerful team called “God” which implies a one triune God. Now here’s the issue, the fact that “the Father” is God, 1 Corinthians 8:6 “6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live”, this shows that their is an contradiction to this trinitarian philosophy and also shows that God is limited which then nullifies God’s omnipotence and also shows that their are other lower gods beside God Almighty . This as clearly shown contradicts the Law and the Prophets. 4. Trinitarians have came up with many new philosophies to explain the trinity which are still irrational and illogical, some trinitarians say that, God is three persons in one being, now the many issues rise with this philosophy. The first one is we have to ask the question is what is the name “the Father” attributed to ? Many times you hear the trinitarians call God “the Father” which is supposedly one of God’s name. And who is “the Father” ? 1 Corinthians 8:6 “6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live”. Now 1 Corinthians 8:6 makes it clear that “the Father” is God Himself, the name “the Father” is attributed to God and is not a different entity rather the Father IS that one being, Paul calls that being who is the necessary existence who is also called many names, “the Father”. God is a being but a completely unique being which is transcendent, no one knows God’s essence, it is through God’s creation we get to know Him and find Him. The heavens and the earth are a reflection of some of God’s attributes just like a mirror thus through His creation we get to know Him and believe in Him. Saying the father, the son and the Holy Spirit is three persons in one being is very problematic since we now know that the Father is God who is a unique being, this new trinitarian philosophy believes the Father is a different entity from this other being(which is God) that the trinitarians brought in, the fact that the trinitarians say that the Father, who is God Himself, is in that being( i.e God) shows that their are two Gods since the Father is God and they are putting the Father in that strange being(God). What the trinitarians are doing is they are shifting between modalism and having 3 (or 4 in this new philosophy) Gods thus they are stuck in the middle. The trinity is, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit that are of one essence who are distinct persons that are co-eternal but are one. If the The Son and the Holy Spirit share the same essence with the Father, who is God, then they are also Gods beside God Almighty and the fact they are eternal also makes them Gods beside God Almighty since God Almighty is eternal. If then we go by this new philosophy which the trinitarians brought up which is, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three persons in one being. That philosophy is Implying that these three persons are part of God’s essence Or it can also imply that God takes on the form of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in other words God takes on three modes which is modalism. Now if the three persons are part of God’s essence then their is a big issue, we now know that the Father is God ( 1 Corinthians 8:6), if the Father is God then their are two Gods. One God, the Father, which is part of the being’s(i.e God's) essence and also the Son and the Holy Spirit is part of that strange being’s essence aswell. This is blaspheming God and limiting Him in many ways. If the Son and the Holy Spirit is part of God’s essence then this is limiting God and contradicts God being the uncreated Necessary existence. The Holy Spirit is divided in to two and they are both completely different things. One it is a title to angel Gabriel and the other it is God’s gift of power to strengthen ( strengthening godly people and people appointed by Him). So if they say part of God is the Holy Spirit, meaning God’s power, then that’s irrational since that’s God’s ability not nature. And if it’s Gabriel then that’s also irrational since angels are also limited beings just like human beings and also God would not be unique. Like wise the Son cannot be part of God’s essence since a human is also very limited and God would not be unique, Numbers 23:19 - “God is not a man, that he should lie, not a Son of Man(human), that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?” And also the fact that this new trinitarian philosophy implies that the Son and the Holy Spirit are part of God’s essence shows that God is made out of three parts which is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit which then nullifies God being the necessary existence (I.e Uncreated) or either God is limited and unlimited at the exact same time (which is absolutely irrational and illogical) or God takes on three modes (which also limits God and brings other big issues considering this new philosophy since it believes the Father ,who is God, is a different entity to the “being”) or their are three Gods (which is clearly polytheism) or the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit make up a team called “God” (which raises a lot of conflicts and limits God). In one way or another the trinity is irrational and illogical an cannot be explained because it’s illogical and irrational! If you think you got it right you didn’t, that’s why some call it a “mystery”. Part 1. Some trinitarians try to explain the trinity in a way that does not lead to modalism or 3 Gods or even 4 Gods here’s how some trinitarians try to explain the trinity, “The trinity consists of three personalities of God which are united in essence and being. The three persons of the Godhead are distinct in function and action, but yet, they share a common essential nature and existence. Thus, while the Father is not the Son and the Holy Spirit, being distinct personalities of the Godhead, they yet share the common essence of God but are not understood by Christians to be three seperate Gods” Here’s the first issue we get into when we read this explanation, “the trinity consists of three personalities of God which are united in essence and being.” This part of the explanation is showing modalism since the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are the personalities of God. If they are the personalities of God then God is taking the form of the Father, the son, and Holy Spirit, which is modalism in other words God is taking three modes. Then it further more the explanation says “which are united in essence and being”. We now know that the Father is God himself( 1 Corinthians 8:6) , the name “the Father” is attributed to God it’s not a personality of God which God takes on (i.e switches to) rather its His name. The fact that the Son and the Holy Spirit share (I.e are united in) the essence and being with the Father then they are also Gods since they share the same ESSENCE and BEING with the Father who is God and are DISTINCT. This part of the explanation is switching between modalism and having 3 Gods and it is not being consistent. Let’s read further more of this explanation, “The three persons of the Godhead are distinct in function and action, but yet, they share a common essential nature and existence. Thus, while the Father is not the son and the Holy Spirit, being distinct personalities of the Godhead, they yet share the common essence of God but are not understood by Christians to be three seperate Gods”. Here are the first two issues bump into again, this explanation is switching between Modalism and having three Gods or maybe even four. The fact that they share the same essence with God and the same existence makes them Gods and the fact they say the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons of the Godhead and they also claim that they share the same essence with God makes them Gods beside God Almighty so that’s 4 Gods now, then the explanation starts contradicting itself by switching to Modalism and also perhaps God being limited and unlimited at the exact same time which is irrational and illogical, by saying “Thus, while the Father is not the Son and the Holy Spirit, being distinct personalities of the Godhead, they yet share the common essence of God but are not understood by Christians to be three seperate Gods”. Again the fact that they share essence with the God makes them Gods aswell and If God exists in the three personalities then God is limited and unlimited at the exact same time which is irrational and illogical and has been refuted refer back to my 2nd paragraph, and also it’s switching to Modalism and back to having three or perhaps 4 Gods, the explanation is not consistent and it either leans to Modalism or having three or 4 Gods. Also the fact that in the whole explanation it includes, “the trinity consists of three personalities of God which are united in essence and being.” Shows that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit share the same essence and being (keeping in mind that according to this trinitarian philosophy the Father is not God himself rather it’s a personality) shows a lot of contradiction, the Holy Spirit is not the Son so it doesn’t share the same essence as the Son and the Holy Spirit is not the Father so it doesn’t share the same essene with the Father and the Son is not the Holy Spirit so it doesn’t share the same essence with the Holy Spirit and the Son is not the Father so the Son does not share the same essence with the Father and the Father is not the Son so the Father doesn’t share the same essence with the the Son and the Father is not the Holy Spirit so the Father doesn’t share the same essence with the Holy Spirit. If they all share the same essence then who’s essence are they sharing? Is it the Son, the Father or the Holy Spirit? Or they sharing each others essence?-meaning the Father and the Holy Spirit share the same essence as the Son, and the Father and the Son share the same essence as the Holy Spirit, and the Father and the Holy Spirit share the same essence as the Son, and the Son and the Holy Spirit share the same essence as the Father. If that is the case that means the Holy Spirit is God since it shares essence with the Father( 1 Corinthians 8:6) and it’s also the Son(jesus) and it’s also itself. Same concept as illustrated is like wise with the Son and the Father. This is also irrational and also shows that their are three Gods who take on modes of each other. This explanation obviously and clearly contradicts the Law and the prophets. Part 2. Some trinitarians try to explain the trinity through a parable but end up switching between having three Gods and Modalism thus it is not consistent. Here’s a explanation of the trinity from a trinitarian. “ imagine, if you will, a great river. Our river flows along its course until it reaches a certain point where we cut two additional channels, and the water now flows into all three. One channel leads to a hydroelectric dam, where the water cascades and electricity is generated. The second channel flows into a depression creating a lake where we can fish, swim, and otherwise recreate ourselves. The third channel is used to float logs to a downstream sawmill. After these three channels find their use, they are directed back together, uniting, and continuing on downstream. Though each of these three channels is put to a different use (distinct personality, if you will) they all retain the same essence of being water from this particular river(having the proportions of dissolved chemicals, oxygen content and etc.) The water in any one channel is the same as the other two (but not necessarily very same as water from some other river in some other channel). They share the same nature and reality, though each find differing uses, following differing paths, etc. This is crude picture of the Godhead, with the three personalities of God sharing the same being and essence, Yet God manifesting Himself in three distinct ways to interact with mankind according to His purposes.” In order to go in completely depth of this parable we first need to understand God properly (i.e the concept of God) so here’s explanation of the proper concept of God. Their is only one God meaning one Wholly. Deuteronomy 6:4 reads in Hebrew “shema Yisroel Adonai eloheinu Adonai echad” “Hear O’Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one”. God is omnipresent (I.e everywhere) and His omnipotent, omniscient and has no form (Deuteronomy 4:12, 4:15-19, exodus Exodus 20:2-5, Numbers 23:19), He has no abode, 2 chronicles 6:18 “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!”. 2 chronicles 2:6 “ But who is able to build a temple for Him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain Him? Who then am I to build a temple for Him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before Him?”. And their is no one like God and and it blasphemy to give God earthly, human or animal attributes or any attributes of His creation an example is having a son or adopting one otherwise God would not be unique. “I am God, and there’s no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9 Isaiah 40:25 “To whom will you compare Me? Or is my equal? Says the Holy One. Isaiah 40:18 To whom will you liken God? To what image will you compare Him? Isaiah 46:5 “With whom will you compare Me or count Me equal ? To whom will you compare Me so we are alike?” Says the Lord” Malachi 3:6 “For I the Lord do not change.” “Before there was no God formed, And there will be none after me” -Isaiah 43:10 Isaiah 44:6-8 “So said the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer the Lord of Hosts, "I am first and I am last, and besides Me there is no God. And who will call [that he is] like Me and will tell it and arrange it for Me, since My placing the ancient people, and the signs and those that will come, let them tell for themselves. Fear not and be not dismayed; did I not let you hear it from then, and I told [it] and you are My witnesses; is there a God beside Me? And there is no rock I did not know.” 1 Chronicles 17:20 “O Lord, there is none like You, and there is no god beside You according to all that we have heard with our ears.” Isaiah 44:24 “Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone” God is outside of time and space and He is transcendent and the All-seeing and the All-hearing and this world is a reflection of Him (i.e some of his attributes) just like a mirror. Now that we know true concept of God which Judaism believes in and jesus came to confirm(Mathew 5:17-20), let’s examine the parable that has been given by a trinitarian. Here is the first issue we bump into in the parable, “ imagine, if you will, a great river. Our river flows along its course until it reaches a certain point where we cut two additional channels, and the water now flows into all three.” Now the river is representing God(whom is called the Father) and the addition two channels are representing the Son and the Holy Spirit. Now In the beginning the additional channels did not exists their was only one channel the two were added later on. Now this is blasphemy since it’s implying that God is limited and unlimited at the same time and that God takes on the form of the Son and the Holy Spirit and God is himself at exact time which is Modalism and also showing that God is limited and unlimited at the exact same time, and also that two other Gods were created since they didn’t exist before which contradicts Isaiah 43:10. This is simply blasphemy and has been refuted. Let’s read further more in this parable, “One channel leads to a hydroelectric dam, where the water cascades and electricity is generated. The second channel flows into a depression creating a lake where we can fish, swim, and otherwise recreate ourselves. The third channel is used to float logs to a downstream sawmill. After these three channels find their use, they are directed back together, uniting, and continuing on downstream. Though each of these three channels is put to a different use (distinct personality, if you will) they all retain the same essence of being water from this particular river(having the proportions of dissolved chemicals, oxygen content and etc.) The water in any one channel is the same as the other two (but not necessarily very same as water from some other river in some other channel). They share the same nature and reality, though each find differing uses, following differing paths, etc.” Now this part of the parable shows that the Son and The Holy Spirit share the same essence with the first channel(which is the Father) and also the Holy Spirit and the Son and the Father share each other’s essence since the parable mentions “The water in any one channel is the same as the other two (but not necessarily very same as water from some other river in some other channel). They share the same nature and reality, though each find differing uses, following differing paths, etc.”. Further illustration, meaning the Father and the Holy Spirit share the same essence as the Son, and the Father and the Son share the same essence as the Holy Spirit, and the Father and the Holy Spirit share the same essence as the Son, and the Son and the Holy Spirit share the same essence as the Father. If that is the case that means the Holy Spirit is God since it shares essence with the Father( 1 Corinthians 8:6) and it’s also the Son(jesus) and it’s also itself. Same concept as illustrated is like wise with the son and the Father. This is also irrational and also shows that their are three Gods who take on modes of each other. This part of the parable clearly contradicts the Law and the prophets. Lets read further more on this parable, “This is crude picture of the Godhead, with the three personalities of God sharing the same being and essence, Yet God manifesting Himself in three distinct ways to interact with mankind according to His purposes.” Now we’re back to Modalism and "the Father” is seen as a personality not the name of God, we know that the Son is jesus and the Holy Spirit is divided into two, one being the gift of God to strengthen and the other is a title of angel Gabriel. And “the Father" is the father of Christ meaning that God is the father of jesus and also He is the Son(Jesus) and also the Holy Spirit, meaning God manifests Himself in these three personalities which is Modalism. No matter how hard trinitarians try to explain the trinity in one way or another it blasphemes God and contradicts the law and the prophets. It either leans to Modalism or having three Gods or maybe even four. The parable is clearly inconsistent it switches between Modalism and three Gods or even four. Part 3. Other trinitarians try to explain the trinity by using an egg and as a parable by saying, “the egg consists of three things, the shell, the egg white and the yolk. These share the same essence and are one.” Now the shell is not the egg white and is completely different to the egg white and likewise it’s not the Yolk and completely different to yolk and the egg white is completely different to the shell and the yolk and is not the yolk or the shell, and the yolk is completely different to the shell and the egg white and is not shell and the egg white. These three things do not share the same essence which leads to the theology that teaches God is made up of three parts which nullifies God being the necessary existence (i.e uncreated). And further more leads to theology of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit makes up a team called “God” I’ve already refuted these two theology’s in my 3rd paragraph and 4th paragraph. Now that the doctrine of the trinity has been refuted, trinitarians will try to take words, idioms, verses and metaphors out of context to support the doctrine of trinity although we have proved the doctrine of the trinity irrational nevertheless we’re going examine some of the deceptions that the trinitarians try to do to other people to support the doctrine of the trinity and try to convince them about the trinity, the trinitarians say that the Shema is complex unity and not absolute one alone and no other. They make this claim because the word “Echad”, which means “one” in Hebrew the same way “one” means “one” in English, is a complex unity by quoting some verses that doesn’t use the word “Echad” in a literal sense rather in complex unity such as Genesis 2:24 “Therefore, a man shall leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one(Echad) flesh.” Now over here obviously the word “Echad” is not used in the literal sense rather it’s a complex unity, so the word “Echad” in the shema is a complex unity hence the trinity. Now the these trinitarians don’t show you the verses were the word “Echad” is used the proper way which is absolute one and no other. So they would perhaps convince the ignorant the word “Echad” is a complex unity. But the word “Echad” is all over the bible sometimes it’s used in a complex unity and some times it’s used in a literal sense which is its actual form and meaning, absolute one and no other, to understand the word “Echad” you have to look at the context, weather it’s being used in a complex unity or being used in a literal sense which is its actual form and meaning. Here is a example of two verses that use the word “Echad” in its literal sense, which is its actual form and meaning. Deuteronomy 17:6 “By the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall the one liable to death be put to death; he shall not be put to death by the mouth of one(Echad) witness.” Deuteronomy 19:15 “One(Echad) witness shall not rise up against any person for any iniquity or for any sin, regarding any sin that he will sin. By the mouth of two witnesses, or by the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be confirmed.” As clearly shown the word “Echad” is not a complex unity in these verses rather it is used in its actual form and meaning, which is absolute one and no other. So when the word “Echad” is used in a complex unity a person must read it in context to understand what meaning is implied in the word “Echad”. Now in the shema it reads, Shema(Hear) Yisroel (O’Israel) Adonai(the Lord) Eloheinu( our God) Adonai(the Lord) Echad (is one). No where does the shema show the word “Echad” is used in a complex unity sense rather it’s clear that the word “Echad” is used in its actual form and meaning, which is absolute one, one Wholly, one and no other, that’s as clear as you can get. If the shema used the word “Echad” in a complex unity sense then the Shema should say, “Hear O’Israel the Lord the Father, and the son and the Holy Spirit our God the Lord is one(Echad)” Or “Hear O’Israel the Lord our God the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit is one(Echad)” Which is obviously not the case. The trinitarians try very hard to force to in the doctrine of the trinity by taking words, metaphors, idioms and verses which is blasphemy and a shame. Another deception that trinitarians try to do is show that the word “Elohim” is plural hence doctrine of trinity is present. Now in Tanakh their are other words that are also plural but are also absolute singular for example the word “shamayim” in Hebrew which means “heaven” and also “heavens” is used many times in the Tanakh, the word “shamayim” is used in a absolute singler form and also sometimes used in a plural form. The word “Elohim” has many meanings(I.e expressions) and also can be singler and also plural. When “Elohim” is used in the plural form it can be referring to false gods and as an expression an example it can also mean “Judge” which can we can see in Exodus 7:1 “The Lord said to Moses, ‘See! I have made you a judge(elohim) over Pharaoh, and Aaron, your brother, will be your speaker.’ Also the word “Elohim” is used as an expression again like in Psalms 82:6 “ I have said you are elohim (godly), and are all sons(godly servants) of the Most high” over here “elohim” is used as an expression of a persons righteousness and devotion to God. When the word “Elohim” is used to refer to the one true God, it is used in its absolute singular form, and the “im” at the end is a plural of majesty/royalty and when the word “Elohim” is used to refer to the one true God it’s pronounced “Alohim” not “Elohim”. Many trinitarians try to deceive people by forcing the doctrine of trinity in the word “Elohim” when the word “Elohim” is used in a singler form in many places and also other words that are like it that can be plural such as “shamayim” are also used in a absolute singular form. And also the word “Elohim” has many other expressions and also is used in a absolute singular and plural as I have shown. In short the possibility of the doctrine of trinity being present in the word “Elohim” is not possible since it’s irrational, illogical and not consistent and contradicting as I have shown aswell. Another deception that the trinitarians bring up is the “I am” Argument. The “I am” argument is another big scam and lie, in Exodus 3:14 in Hebrew it says “Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh”, “Ehyeh” is just a word which means “i will” and also “I will be” in exodus 3:12 God tells Moses “Ehyeh(i will be) immek(with you)”. “I am” in Hebrew is “Ani” not “Ehyeh” the world “Ehyeh” is used so many times across the Hebrew bible and it has nothing to do with God’s name it’s just a word. Many times does the world “I am” occur in the Tanakh here a few examples, “I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides me” - Isaiah 44:6 “ I am the Lord, and there is no other; Beside me there is no God” Isaiah 45:5 “I am God, and there’s no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9 In all of these passages and many more in Hebrew the word “I am” it says “Ani” not “Ehyeh”. “Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh” in Exodus 3:14 is “I will be what I will be” or also “I shall be what I Shall be” “Ani” means “I” and also “I am”; “Ani hu” means “I am he” Another deception that the trinitarian bring up is an example they quote, Malachi 3:1 1“I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before Me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to His temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty.” the say since the passage says “Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to His temple;...” and the messenger is John the Baptist then this shows that Jesus is God. Little do these trinitarians know these verses are not interpreted in a literal sense rather it is an expression meaning God’s representative, an example is Genesis 32:28 in the Christian bible “28Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God” but in Hosea 12:4 it says he struggled with an angel although in genesis it says Jacob struggled with God, the reason being it is because the interpretation of the Torah translates these kind of passages as God’s representative not God himself fighting Jacob, walking on earth and etc at first glance it would seem their is a contradiction but that’s because they haven’t understood the interpretation of certain idioms, when a verse says God will come and etc it means God’s representative not God Himself. So in Malachi when it says “Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to His temple;...” it is saying God’s representative whom you are seeking will be in God’s temple. The Jewish Bible interprets genesis 32:28 correctly while the Christian bible misinterprets the passage here’s the Jewish bible interpretation, 29And he said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, because you have commanding power with [an angel of] God and with men, and you have prevailed." These kind of idioms are common and are all over the Tanakh these passages are not be taken in a literal sense. Another example is Judges 5:4 “4Lord, when You went forth out of Seir, when You marched out of the field of Edom, the earth trembled, the heavens also dripped; also the clouds dripped water.” God didn’t literally went out of Seir rather it was God’s representative, these verses are not to be taken literally. Another deception that the trinitarians bring is the incident of Thomas, Thomas was simply saying an expression the same way nowa days people say the expression “O my God” when they see something. Thomas was in shock when he saw that Jesus was alive since he initially thought Jesus was dead. Did the man(who is tertullian) who came up with name trinity(trinitas) did he believe that the Holy Spirit the third person of the trinity is equal with the Father and The Son? Or did he believe The Son(jesus) and the Holy Spirit was a lower God beside God the Father? New Bible Dictionary, “The term trinity is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century, but received wide currency [common use in intellectual discussion] and formal elucidation [clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries.” — (1996, “Trinity”) The New Bible Dictionary goes on to explain that, “the formal doctrine of the Trinity was the result of several inadequate attempts to explain who and what the Christian God really is ... To deal with these problems the Church Fathers met in [A.D.] 325 at the Council of Nicaea to set out an orthodox biblical definition concerning the divine identity.” However, it wasn't until 381, “at the Council of Constantinople, [that] the divinity of the Spirit was affirmed.” Wikipedia states what Tertullian believed on the Godhead: Tertullian was just a forerunner of the Nicene doctrine and did not state the immanent trinity. His use of trinitas (Latin: 'Threeness') emphasised the manifold character of God. In his treatise against Praxeas he used the words, “Trinity and economy, persons and substance.” The Son is distinct from the Father, and the Spirit from both the Father and the Son. “These three are one substance, not one person; and it is said, 'I and my Father are one' in respect not of the singularity of number but the unity of the substance.” In his book Tertullian against Praxeas, he also states that the Son was not co-eternal with the Father and did have a beginning as the begotten Son of God. The man who came up with the trinity explained it different to what the trinity is explained today. Many trinitarians say the God exists in Father and The Son and the Holy Spirit, this has always been refuted as shown above, it is irrational and illogical. Tertullian says that The father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons who are of one substance. Now going by Tertullian’s philosophy, The Holy Spirit and The Son are lower Gods beside God the Father since they are of one substance and distinct persons. Tertullian says The Son had a beginning, if The Son had a beginning then he’s created, that which is created is limited and is definitely not a God. Also the divinity of the Holy Spirit wasn’t affirmed when the NT was paganise’d, there were still major debates on the divinity of the Holy Spirit until 381 AD. Although tertullian held on to the view that the holy spirit is divine person but not equal with God the Father and also had a beginning. If these doctrines were made later on and did not exists in the time of the apostles and Jesus nor did some of them exist in the time of tertullian then the trinity doctrine has absolutely zero basis or support. Mathew 5:17 makes it clear that Jesus came to fulfil the Law and unaltered prophets message. If you read further more in the same chapter you will see jesus tells his followers to uphold the commandments and if you neglect any one of them you will be the least in the kingdom of God(paradise). This shows that Jesus believed in pure monotheism as the Jews and the previous prophets did. Also the the verses nullifies the teaching that jesus died for your sins to not be doomed. Rather it shows that you are responsible for your own actions and you have to follow the commandments and teachings to achieve salvation. This teaching of jesus dying for your sins is a Pauline teaching that was added, and it made it to all four gospels later on by the pagans adding it to the four gospels. Tertullian however did introduce pagan ideas into the worship service. He taught oblations for the dead and made the sign of the cross on the forehead of worshipers. He also dipped people three times to baptize them. Tertullian freely admitted that he had adopted these ideas from pagan teachings and could not support them from Scripture, but he thought that if Christians adopted some heathen rituals of the pagans that they would find it easier to join Christianity. Today what the trinitarians teach is Paul’s religion and later pagan teachings that were made later on and was forced into the four gospels. Does John chapter 1 support the trinity? Many Trinitarians use the 1st chapter in the gospel according to John to prove the trinity, the issue here is does the first chapter of John really support the trinity or is it a deliberate mistranslation in hopes to support the trinity? Let see the important parts of the passages that are used to support the trinity... John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the word and the word was with Ho Theos and the word was theos. It was with Ho Theos in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that had been made. The “him” part in John1:1-3 can legitimately be translated as “it” and not “him” the only reason why it has “him” and not “it” is because trinitarians believe the word is jesus and the word is God thus it should be “him” not “it”. Now the trinitarians have done a big blasphemy on this passage and here’s why, when the passage says “and the word was with God”, the word “God” over here in Greek is “Ho Theos” which means “The God” which is a direct reference to the only one true God, in Aramaic it would be “Allaha” and in Arabic “Allah” the term “Ho Theos” translates the word “Allaha” literally. Then after that passage it says “and the word was theos” now the word “theos” over here can have many meanings to it, it can refer to kings, chiefs, judges or even refer to false gods and also mean divine. The proper translation of this part of the passage is “divine” then the next passage says “it was with God in the beginning” now the word “God” in this passage in Greek is “Ho Thoes” referring to the one true God. Now if the word was God then it would say “Ho theos” instead of just “theos”, the word “theos” can have many meanings if the gospel of John intended to show jesus is God the it would blatantly say “and the word was Ho theos” which is not the case. Now a question arises what are these passages really talking about ? Here’s a long answer. John 1:1-3 “1In the beginning was the word(Let their be) and the word(Let their be) was with God and the word(Let their Be) was divine. 2It was with God in the beginning. 3Through it all things were made; without it nothing was made that had been made.” John 1:1 is actually referring back to the book of Genesis when God uses the expression “Let their Be” to bring the existence of the earth and what’s in it. The term “Let their Be” is a expression of God’s decree(command). When it says “the word was with God” what it’s actually saying is that the expression of “Let their Be”,Which is the decree, was in God’s foreknowledge, God had already willed to create the heavens and earth and has also created a decree for it to be decreed at certain point of time. That decree and will was already in God’s foreknowledge, thus it says “it was with God in the beginning”. And when the passage in John1:1 that says “and the word was divine” what’s its pretty much conveying, is that the word( i.e the decree, which is the expression “Let their Be”) is from God, it was a divine order. John 1:3 should be easy by now and it pretty much shows that, without God’s decree and will, nothing that has been made would be made. Now John1:4-5 is actually a pretty easy part now since we know the proper interpretation of John1:1-3. John1:4-5 4In it(the word) was life, and that life was the light(guide) of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it. Over here when it says “in it(i.e the word) was life” that life is jesus himself, jesus was also in God’s foreknowledge and part of God’s will and decree but was appointed at a certain point of time in this case, and the the passage says “and that life was the light of all mankind” the passage shows that Jesus was the light(meaning the guide) of all mankind, this passage shows that Jesus came to bring guidance and bring people to a righteous path and adhere to the radical monotheism which the prophets and Messengers before him taught to their own people and across other countries. In John1:14 when it says “and the word became flesh” this verse is showing that God’s decree was decreed and it was manifested thus it became flesh. If you put this verse between verse 9 and 10 you will fully understand the verse aswell and what it’s conveying. John 1:6-14 6There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7He came as a witness to bear witness about the light(Messenger), that all might believe through him. 8He was not the light(Messenger); but came to bear witness about the light(Messenger). 9The true light(Messenger) that gives light(guidance) to everyone was coming into the world. 10It(the word) was in the world and, though the world was made through it(the word) the world did not recognise it(the word). 11He went to his own people, and his own people did not accept him. 12But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to be godly servants of God 13They are reborn—not because of natural decent nor of the desire or will of mankind, but reborn for God. 14The word became flesh and made its dwelling among us. We have seen it’s glory, the glory of the LORD’s one and only Messenger. That’s term “son of God” in Jewish traditions and shown in the OT is metaphor referring to godly prophets and Messengers who are close to God spiritually and chosen by God to convey a message from God. The term “son” used in verse john 1 verse 14 is added by the pagans since they believed in the Greek methodology and other pagan beliefs. Trinitarians will show some verses that they take out of context to show that Jesus existed before the world thus he must be God since God is uncreated(i.e eternal) and from Him all things came. Here is a verse that the trinitarians take out of context to support this claim. John 17:5 “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with You before the world began.” Now what the trinitarians don’t show is verse 6 and 7 which then will lead a person to a rational conclusion and give the proper interpretation, here’s verse 6 and 7, John 17:6-7 6“I have revealed You to those whom You gave me out of the world. They were Yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. In verse 6 it says “I have revealed You to those whom You gave me out of the word.” Now if God gave jesus those who follow him(jesus) outside of the word, which is implying/hints out before the world was created, then those who follow him are also Gods since they also existed before the world was created. Obviously that is blasphemy and polytheism. What verse 6 and verse 5 actually shows is that their was a another realm which our spirits existed, which is similar to purgatory realm, were we testified that God is our LORD and their is no other and we also testified to Jesus’s prophethood and messiahship, as we continue to read verse 6 it says “They were Yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.” Verse 6 shows that we followed God since we testified that He is our LORD, and God made us testify to Jesus’ prophethood and Messiahship, since God glorified him by making him a prophet and messiah thus all the people in the spiritual realm testified to Jesus’ prophethood and messiahship and gave him special importance. What verse 5 is showing is, Jesus is praying to God to glorify him with the glory that he had, before the world was created, in the spiritual realm where everyone testified to his prophethood and messiahship while God was a witness over him and us, in the world aswell. This will happen when Jesus returns and everyone will testify to Jesus’ prophethood and messiahship. And also the verses show that Jesus is supplicating to God if jesus is God then who is he supplicating to ? Or what’s even worse how many Gods are their ? A God praying to another God? Trinitarians try to use 2 Corinthians 13:14 to try an show that the trinity existed in Paul’s epistle, let’s examine the verse... 14May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing between Jesus Christ and the “love of God” and the Holy Spirit. Paul himself believed the holy spirit is a gift from God. 1 Thessalonians 4:8 ...the very God who gives you His holy spirit.” The question arises did Paul believe in a trinity or was he a dualist ? 1 Corinthians 8:6 “6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live” Paul makes it clear that “the Father” is God, not the Son nor the Holy Spirit. If Paul was a trinitarian he would say, “there is but one God, the Father the Son The Holy Spirit,...” Paul calls God “the Father” the same way Prophet Ezra, Daniel Jeremiah called God “Allah”. Ephesians 1:3 “3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” Romans 15:6 6so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing God from Jesus and that Jesus has a God and that God is the father of Jesus. Colossians 1:3 “3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” Philippians 2:5-7 5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. Now in verse 5 Paul is telling the people to have the same mindset as Jesus amongst each other then he continues on in verse by saying 6 “who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage” and he go’s in verse 7 by pretty much saying jesus took on a form of a human. In verse 6 Paul says “Who being very nature God” over here Paul believes Jesus to be God(i.e divine) but then as we continue on in verse 6 Paul says “did not consider equality with God Almighty something to be used to his own advantage” Now over here Paul is distinguishing Jesus from God Almighty but he also believes jesus was also a God beside(i.e next to) God but Jesus who is the second God manifested himself in a human form ,as verse 7 shows, so that he is no longer equal to God Almighty rather he is limited. Now this is obviously a heresy and dualism since Jesus is a God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty, despite jesus manifesting himself in a human form because in nature he is a God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty except he is a limited God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty. This is obviously not Monotheism at all and contradicts the Law and the prophets. So if the trinitarians try to use Paul’s epistles to show the trinity then they have to believe there are either two Gods or three Gods since Paul believes Jesus was a God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty but he limited himself so he is no longer equal to God by not being like God Almighty. Jesus himself didn’t claim he was God rather explicitly denies being God and also rebukes being called the Son of God. Mark 10:17-18 “17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.” Jesus questions the questioner for calling him “good teacher” the reason being is because he didn’t want any sort of praise not even a minor praise and says “No one is good EXCEPT GOD ALONE” this incident clearly shows Jesus is not God. Another argument that the trinitarians bring is they say Jesus said “I and the Father are one” this is a deception, they simply quoting a verse and taking it out context and not reading it in context, let’s have a look at the context. John 10:27-39 “27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.” 31Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” 33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” 34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “elohim (godly people)” ’ ? 35If he called them ‘elohim(godly people)-(Psalms 82:6),’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own [representative] and sent to the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of God’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the father.” 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.” In john 10:32 we see that the Jews misunderstood what Jesus had meant by “I and my Father are one.” (John 10:30). And in john 10:33 they accused him of blasphemy. Now, had Jesus been God, or had he and God been one in a literal sense then he wouldn’t have hesitated to clarify the matter at that point. Jesus at that point said, “Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?” What he was trying to say was that if the Jews called “I and my Father are one” blasphemy then they should call what was written in their law “You are gods” blasphemy too. The reasoning behind this is “You are elohim” does not mean that you, the Jewish Messengers, are Gods, it is rather an expression. It just means that you are godly people. The same applies to “I and my Father are one.” It does not mean that Jesus is God or that he and God are the same literally. It’s just an expression meaning they are one in purpose. More elaborated explanation for those who try desperate attempts. 34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “elohim (godly people)” ’ ? 35IF HE(Allaha) CALLED THEM ‘elohim(godly people)-(Psalms 82:6),’ TO WHOM THE WORD OF GOD CAME—AND SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE SET ASIDE— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own [representative] and sent to the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of God’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. In verse 35 jesus crystal clearly points out that Pslams 82:6 is about God’s Messengers (Messengers receive divine scripturelike David,Moses,job,Ezekiel,Enoch,Noah. Prophets of God don’t receive any divine scripture rather they confirm the truth contained within the scripture), then in verse 36,right after, jesus says,”WHAT ABOUT THE ONE WHOM THE FATHER(Allaha) SET APART AS HIS VERY OWN [REPRESENTATIVE] AND SENT IN TO THE WORLD?” Then jesus takes advantage of Psalms 82:6 that he used to refute their false accusation and says, “Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of God’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.“ as Pslams 82:6 calls the Messengers of God “sons of the Most Hight(El Elyon)”. In verse 37 jesus makes it clear that he does these good work with not his own authority rather with God’s authority and Jesus tells them to not believe in him if he does these without God’s authority, Jesus was simply carrying out God’s commands and purpose. Which he make clear in the next verse, “38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the father.” it is clear as daylight jesus was just a messiah, prophet, Messenger of God. Another argument that the trinitarians say jesus is God they bring the incident with Philip the disciple, 8Philip said, “Master, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” 9Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Don’t you believe that I am united with the Father, and that the Father is united me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father... who is doing His work. 11Believe me when I say that I am united with the Father and the Father is united with me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. Jesus was making clear to Philip that it is through him(jesus) God was known and he(jesus) manifested God’s glory by carried out God’s commands and purpose and displaying God’s glory. So Jesus was making it clear that if you have seen God’s glory, which Jesus and other prophets have manifested, then you have seen the Father because it is through them you knew God. All prophets are a manifestation of God’s glory, an example is prophet Jeremiah, Jeremiah 1:5 “When I had not yet formed you in the womb, I knew you, and when you had not yet emerged from the womb, I had appointed you; a prophet to the nations I made you.” Prophet Jeremiah was already in God’s foreknowledge, Jeremiah was part of God’s will and decree and at a certain point of time that decree was decreed thus it become manifest. Another example is when prophet Ezekiel raised the dead alive, Ezekiel 37:4-12 4And He said to me, "Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.' 5So says the Lord God to these bones; Behold, I will cause spirit to enter into you, and you shall live! 6And I will lay sinews upon you, and I will make flesh grow over you and cover you with skin and put breath into you, and you will live, and you will then know that I am the Lord." 7So I prophesied as I was commanded, and there arose a noise when I prophesied, and behold a commotion, and the bones came together, bone to its bone! 8And I looked, and lo! sinews were upon them, and flesh came upon them, and skin covered them from above, but there was still no spirit in them. 9Then He said to me, "Prophesy to the spirit, prophesy, O Son of Man, and say to the spirit, 'So says the Lord God: From four sides come, O spirit, and breathe into these slain ones that they may live.' " 10And I prophesied as He had commanded me, and the spirit came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, a very great army, exceedingly so. 11Then He said to me, "Son of Man, these bones are all the house of Israel. Behold they say, 'Our bones have become dried up, our hope is lost, we are clean cut off to ourselves.' 12Therefore, prophesy and say to them, So says the Lord God: Lo! I open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves as My people, and bring you home to the land of Israel Jesus was no different he displayed God’s glory so that they may believe in the one true God and the jesus’ prophethood. An example of this is John 11: 3So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Master, the one you love is sick.” 4When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s messenger may be glorified through it.” 5Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days, 7and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.” 8“But RABBI,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?” 9Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. 10It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.” 11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” 12His disciples replied, “Master, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” 16Then Thomas said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.” Jesus Comforts the Sisters of Lazarus 17On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18Now Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, 19and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home. 21“Master,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22BUT I KNOW THAT EVEN NOW GOD WILL GIVE YOU(jesus) WHATEVER YOU ASK.” 23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” 25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the [eternal] life. The one who believes in me will live....26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27“Yes, Master,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the messanger of God, who is to come into the world.” 28After she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. “The Teacher is here,” she said, “and is asking for you.” 29When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. 30Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him. 31When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there. 32When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, “Master, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.” 33When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. 34“Where have you laid him?” he asked. “Come and see, Master,” they replied. 35Jesus wept. 36Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!” 37But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?” Jesus Raises Lazarus From the Dead 38Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39“Take away the stone,” he said. “But, Master,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.” 40Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?” 41So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “FATHER(God), I THANK YOU(God) THAT YOU(God) HAVE HEARD ME. 42I KNEW THAT YOU(God) ALWAYS HEAR ME, BUT I SAID THIS FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PEOPLE STANDING HERE, THAT THEY MAY BELIEVE THAT YOU(God) SENT ME.” 43When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!”44The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.” Did jesus do miracles by the permission of God ? John 11:22 “22BUT I KNOW THAT EVEN NOW GOD WILL GIVE YOU(jesus) WHATEVER YOU ASK.” yes most definitely. why did such miracle take place ? John 11:4 “...it is for God’s glory so that God’s messenger may be glorified through it.” John 11:41-42 41So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “FATHER(God), I THANK YOU(God) THAT YOU(God) HAVE HEARD ME(jesus). 42I KNEW THAT YOU(God) ALWAYS HEAR ME(jesus), BUT I SAID THIS FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PEOPLE STANDING HERE, THAT THEY MAY BELIEVE THAT YOU(God) SENT ME(jesus).” so God’s glory can be displayed that the people know that Jesus is God’s Messenger and revere Jesus. In short Jesus was the manifestation of God’s glory like the previous prophets so the people may believe in God, His message, His messengers and His prophets. Jesus explicitly rebukes being called the Son of God, Luke 4:41 “41Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Messiah.” It is clear that Jesus rebuked them because they were calling him the literal son of God when deep down they knew he was the Messiah not the literal son of God as the verse clearly states. Jesus was already preaching and healing so demons and later on the Pharisees are trying their hardest to give a accusation in order to get him executed so Jesus was constantly explaining himself and being clever with his preaching. Verse 43 jesus explicitly says he must go preach the the good news of the covenant of God and in verse 42 people are tying to make him stay. So in short Jesus was already preaching and he had to face false accusations from the demons then later on the teachers of the law and the Pharisees. The term “son of God” has been used in the OT many times and it is used as an metaphor to those who are Messengers of God (i.e those who have received scriptures from God) and are spiritually close to God. Their are some verses in the gospel according to John which show that Jesus was originally in heaven and then was conceived by saint Mary. But to clear all these contradictions, the oldest gospel is Mark and then Mathew is like Mark with some added words that are pagan and Greek methodology elements and then Luke which perhaps was written by Luke the companion of Paul. Mathew 5:17-20(The Law and the Prophets) is the measuring rod that is to be used when reconstructing the bible and the base is the gospel of Mathew, and the gospel of Mark also helps a lot with reconstructing the bible and also parts of Luke and John. In these four gospels their is truth and when the truth that is in the 4 gospels is combined and put in chronological order the Evangel becomes a reliable book, thus is how the truth within these gospels is intended to be persevered thus only the true sincere followers of Christ will find if they strive hard and use reason, logic and commonsense. Obviously and sadly not many people will find that path they will go astray as jesus prophesied in Mathew 7:13-14 “13Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14.But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to [eternal] life, and only a few find it.” Unfortunately many “Christians” have entered the wide gate which lead to go astray and have pagan beliefs and perhaps also be wicked. The truth that is contained within the 4 gospels must be preached to these lost sheep in order to live a righteous life and fulfil the proper religious obligations to achieve eternal life which is paradise.

These two videos I find very informative about the changes that has been made to the text of the Bible. The guy who made these videos usually make videos about science and technology, but I find the contends of these videos are quite well researched. They only reflect the findings of scholars of ancient texts and biblical studies, that is well established in the field of comparative religion. In part number two you will among other thing learn about the falsifications of the story of the adulteress who escaped stoning and the only place in the New testament that supports the trinity.

Does the Quran say that the christians believed the trinity was God (AZ), Jesus(AS), and Mary(RA)? Can someone please clarify this for me. Is there any Hadith relating to the trinity? And when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. — Qur'an, sura 5 (Al-Ma'ida), ayat116

Salam I was wondering what our fellow brothers/sisters thought of about this video below if you care to watch: it is an explanation of the trinity that does sound nice but I have no clue as to what the point was... a little lost and wondering if someone could help me understand what RZ was trying to say here?

I'm a Muslim and I've spend a considerable amount of time studying Christianity. As a result, I'm curious to know how well my Muslim brothers and sisters understand the core beliefs of Christianity. So if you're a Muslim, feel free to take this test and answer the following questions to the best of your ability. No cheating! Thanks. 1) What is the trinity? 2) What does it mean that Jesus is the son of God? 3) What does it mean that Jesus is the son of man?

Salams to all, I guess this is a question im hoping Christians on the forum will be able to help me with, but anyones help would be welcome. In the statement of the Council of Chalcedon it says that Jesus(as) was/is: 'perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body... begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead,' My question is: isnt that which distinguishes Jesus as a person of the Trinity (his being uncreated) the very thing that disqualifies him from being fully human? The word 'man' points to a certain kind of being does it not? In the Abrahamic religions 'man' is a created being by definition (as established in genesis) and so is his soul (Jeremiah 38:16), so in what way can the use of the word 'man' be said to be appropriate if the established criteria for what that word points towards is not being met?

http://trinities.org/blog/podcast-131-10-apologists-mistakes-trinity/ ^part 1 by a Christian Philosopher

(bismillah) In The Name of Allah (SWT) , The Most Beneficent, The Most Merciful. (salam) Here is an excerpt from a post that ChristianLady made recently on one of the threads: Now, I could have answered there but the point I wanted to make was a lot more general and aimed at Christians at large so I thought fit that I would make a separate thread for this. Before I move any further, I want to highlight some parts of what she said: 1. Jesus (as) makes it clear that The Father is greater than him; 2. Jesus (as) obeys The Father; 3. He (The Father) created Himself to be a man. Now, I don't think that any Christians can disagree with these statements because verses of the Bible do also support these so I will be basing my arguements on the assumption that every Christian, just like her, has the same beliefs. My questions are: 1. How can Jesus (as) and The Father be one (The triune god) and yet Jesus (as) is inferior to The Father? In fact, isn't God supposed to be The All-High, meaning infinitely powerful and high? If that is the case, then, any candidate for Divinity must be superior to all and inferior to none. Since Jesus (as) does not fulfill this criteria, can we call him god? There is nothing which can be greater than infinity and if something is relatively smaller than another thing, no matter how huge the first thing may be, it is still not infinite. It follows, therefore, that Jesus (as) is also NOT The All-High. 2. Why does God have to obey someone else? 3. This is, perhaps, the most interesting part of her arguement. She claims that God can do everything and, therefore, it is also possible for Him to create Himself (I will come back to this statement later). So, if we are going to use the arguement of His Omnipotence as proof for the validity of the trinity, may I ask the Christians why they reject the Hindu gods or those who worship idols? After all, God is All-Powerful and if he can take form of a man, why can't he take the form of a stone? Why is idol worship wrong then? Secondly, she says, "God created Himself to be a man." Is God not supposed to be The Uncreated? If so, since Jesus (as) is created, then, what does this make him: god or man? Another problem I have with this is that she is saying that God is creating Himself. I am sure that no one can accept such a statement and, so, I would very grateful if she - or another of our Christian brethren - could clarify these questions. My intention in doing this is to have a healthy discussion and not to hurt someone. So, if I have offended either ChristianLady or any other member, I am extremely sorry and I hope you will forgive me. Insha'Allah, I have been helpful, clear and objective in my reasoning and have not hurt anyone! :D May Allah (SWT) bless us all, our families and loved ones, guide us all to The Straight Path with His Perfect Guidance and may He, The Forgiver of Sins and The Oft-Forgiving, forgive all our sins for, verily, there is neither any refuge nor any respite for the sinners, except in Allah (SWT) .