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Read the Reddit comments to understand what the thread was about, since the post has since been deleted. ....................................................................................... I'm so tired of the utterly nonsensical and VERY COMMON Sunni notion of 'I am happy to seek unity with Shias as long as they don't curse/insult/abuse any Sahaba, and especially NOT Aisha, Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman. Firstly, any Shia claim regarding the sahabi that happens to go against the Sunni narrative is considered insulting. Secondly, and more importantly, is that the same notion is true for Shias... You are insulting the Ahlul Bayt by not accepting them as divinely appointed leaders of Allah, and infallible individuals, and perfect preservers of the religion of Islam, and a high means of seeking closeness to Allah (intercession). Not only are you insulting revered Shia figures by not following them, you are commiting MAJOR shirk by giving a false attribute to Allah, by saying that Allah has not always appointed an infallible leader on this Earth, and that there currently isn't an infallible leader. Furthermore, the real kicker is that plenty of revered Shia figures, such as Abu Talib (رضي الله عنه), are considered kuffar by Sunnis. Is this not insulting? So, how can we Shias unite with Sunnis based on their own fallacious logic? Shias are the minority, and Sunnis are the majority. It makes Sunnis think that they are Orthodox and that they have to unite with Heterodox for political and humanitarian reasons, and that Shias must make [ridiculous] compromises. Shias are far more receptive to the unity message, because we actually understand Sunni Islam, and can see the commonalities. We understand that we can't make Sunnis compromise on their beliefs. Simply by being the minority within Islam, by nature we Shias already understand Sunni beliefs, whereas Sunnis have a basic strawman understanding of Shia beliefs... which is natural, considering that they are the majority. Anyways, the point of my post is the following: Let's compile a list of revered Shia figures that are not given their proper status by Sunnis, according to Shia Islam... with an explanation given. ...This is to show that we Shias and Sunnis can unite, but we cannot unite upon revered figures and imamah. ...This will also serve as a way of showing Sunnis that this argument of theirs makes no sense. Another important question we may ask is "What about commonly revered figures like Imam Ali (عليه السلام) who is given different status in both sects? Can we unite upon Imam Ali (عليه السلام)?" ...a common Sunni criticism of political unity is that "Ali ibn Abi Talib (رضي الله عنه) is given an improper status in Shia religion because they call upon him... tawassul (intercession) of the 'dead' is Shirk! So there is absolutely no room for unity since we can't even agree on the status of the sahabi" [yes, I am aware that the Imams (عليه السلام) are still alive, but Sunnis don't believe this...] I would love to hear your thoughts. Wassalam. JazakAllah Khair. Fi sabilillah.
Question about sufis
Nadia. posted a topic in Minor Islamic Sectssalam, I have heard from someone that the sufi sheikhs believe that they are in contact with Allah swt, is this true? And if so, what type of contact? Do they say they talk directly to Allah and he answers or is it something else? Because anyone who prays or makes du'aa is in contact with Allah so I would like to understand this concept a bit better (if such a thing exists in sufism).
Is Ahmadiyya A Branch Of Sunni Sect?
ShaanHussayn posted a topic in General Islamic DiscussionBefore anyone says that they are kafir or non-Muslim etc, this cannot be true because their shahada is same as any Sunni Muslim. To be a Muslim you have to agree to this shahada: لَا إِلٰهَ إِلَّا الله مُحَمَّدٌ رَسُولُ الله (lā ʾilāha ʾillā l-Lāh, Muḥammadun rasūlu l-Lāh) There is no god but God, Muhammad is the messenger of God. Only difference is that they believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a Mahdi. I believe that technically the Ahmadiyya Muslims are Sunni Muslim, it is one of the branch of Sunni sect because it inherits majority of its teaching from Sunni school. Bear in mind that technically a certain branch comes under a certain sect according to whatever its teaching is inherited from. e.g. Shia Islam = Alawi, Twelver, Zaydi etc because it inherits its teachings from Shia school Sunni Islam = Ahmadi, Hanafi, Maliki, Wahabi, Salafi etc because it inherits its teachings from Sunni school Please share your intelligence. Here is the Ahmadiyya shahada which is exactly the same as any other Sunni branch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFiyt-Ijc0Y
Revert Muslimah Needs Help Regarding Sect
QuranSunnat posted a topic in General Islamic DiscussionAsslam-o-alaikum, I reverted to Islam some time back after Allah guided me to truth. I gained knowledge on Old and New Testament, Gospels, Hindu, Sikhist and Buddhist Scriptures and all of them brought me more towards Muhammad (saw). I try to follow Islam to my best and I have knowledge of tafseer and many ahadith of both Sunni and Shia Alhumdulilah. When I went to sunnis, I was initially welcomed but later on got nothing but hate because I believe in learning knowledge from the source Quran itself and when I raised questions on their beliefs, I never got any satisfactory answer or evidence that they are on the right path. Now I want to investigate the shia sect which some how i have started to feel are closer towards ahlul bayt. Please I have questions, and don't want rude answers like I got from sunni brethren. and I need answers from Quran only because 1) I don't believe in anything but Allah and his rasool (s). 2) Sunnis don't accept shia ahadith and vice versa so answering from ahadith will make me confused. (No i am not a Quranist but I have yet to seek which ahadith are actually saheeh and what are the proofs of it) MY QUESTIONS/ ARGUMENTS 1)) why are there sects at first place? Quran strictly forbids it and rasool Allah s.w warned against making sects. Surat Al-'An`am [6:159] Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only to Allah ; then He will inform them about what they used to do. Surat 'Ali `Imran [3:103] And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. 2)) Why do you call yourself Shiites? What does the word mean? If you are the following actual sunnah, should not you call yourselves ahlul Sunnah? or just Muslims because Allah commands us to be known as Muslims alone, not by our sects as quoted above. 3)) I don't feel like blind following an Imam. I want to follow an Imam but not blindly as in taqleed. I am a girl who seeks evidence and knowledge. Blind following turns me off. Quran's first wahi was "Iqra" i.e "Read" Quran tells us to ponder ourselves, not blind follow. “Will they not then ponder upon the Quran?” Surah Muhammed: 24 So ask the People of the Knowledge if you do not know." (Qur'an 21:6-7) It says ASK the people of knowledge, like I am asking now, it never said blindly follow "And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result." (Qur'an 4:59) I read a saying of Moula Ali that Allah ÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì can not make a creature obedient to another who is veiled from seeing the 7 heavens. Shiites class that saying to be saheeh. Imams were virtous no doubt, but I am not convinced to taqleed i.e blind follow which Sunni brethren were forcing me to do. I told them I will follow an Imam but with backproofing and evidence, but they were like how dare you not consider Imam Abu Hanifa of not knowledge, (although I never ever made any statement like that but I said all Imams are virtuous, but they misinterpreted that not blind following him would mean an insult to him). So can i follow an Imam without doing taqleed to him i.e each time i'll refer back to quran to look for evidence. 4)) What caused Sunni/Shia split for the first time? What are the authentic references? Honestly brailvi and deobandi ulema misguided me the most by saying shiites are the ones who killed Imam Hussain r.a, and now they beat themselves in repentance. However I was corrected by ahlul hadith that Shiites were the supporters of Imam Hussain r.a in Karballa and they beat themselves in grief. And most ahlul hadith scholars told me "Bitterness/ grudge towards Ali is Bitterness towards Rasool Allah (s)." Ahlul hadith also said that I can call Hazrat Ali r.a as Moula Ali and moula doesn't mean Allah in arabic, Moula means friend of Allah. They said I have to love Ali after Allah and his rasool (s). Ahlul hadith also said that I can pray like Shiites (3 times) whenever I want but i should not make it a routine as both ways of praying are proven correct. While Brelvis and deobandis told me praying zuhrain and maghrabain would make my prayers void except during travel. When I went back to Brelvi and deobandis with the authentic ahadith supporting love of Ali r.a, they cursed them as wahabbis and spoke only bitter of them. So now I have come to you, shiites. Why are these differences there after all with you and sunnis aka brelvis and deos? And I don't see alot of differences between shiittes and ahul hadith then why do shiites hate them aswel while they love Moula Ali alot. 5)) I leave among you two things Quran and Ahlul bayt - this hadith is accept by all Muslims (whatever sect) so I quote it. The sunnis also accept this hadith but I don't know why they refrain from quoting it except ahlul hadith who quote it openly and thus brought me towards you. But I have a question, the arabic word means household - referring it to household of the prophet. Why don't you include wives of prophet (s) in ahlul bayt? What about all other wives other than Aisha r.a? Why do you exclude them also? I know Aisha r.a did wrong towards Fatima r.a (I can't say intentionally or unintentionally because I have no right to judge her and I have never looked in her heart), but in the end she was repentant and wept in regret the rest of her life which is a historical fact. Doesn't Allah accept repentance? Who are we to judge her repentance? And who are we to say "curse be upon her", isn't Allah the only judge of hearts? do not despair of the mercy of Allah, Indeed Allah forgives all sins (Quran 39:53). Have we all looked upon ourselves before judging others. We are the kind of people who hardly repent but yet we think her repentance meant nothing. Since when did cursing became a part of Muslim Vocabulary. Honestly Islam makes me so happy but Muslims make me depressed, all they do is curse and abuse eachother. So i accept she did wrong, but I also know she was loved deeply by prophet s.w how does this or Allah allows us from cursing her? Similary for Abu Bakar r.a and Umar r.a, who are we to judge them? I am not at all saying they are infallibles, noone is except Allah and his prophets. Won't Allah return Abu Bakar r.a and Umar r.a their deeds on the day of qiyamah? Won't Allah judge them if they did good or bad? Histories differ completely, one calls them good and other calls them bad. How can one be 100% sure they are cursing them rightly? So Allah will also judge us for abusing them, shouldn't we remain silent instead of abusing them? 6)) Why do sunnis and shiites believe tawassul of those who have passed away is necessary. Please prove from Quran. I never found any historical evidence either. When I asked brelvis, they quotes these ayahs: ‘O you who believe! Be careful (of your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful.’ Surah Maidah 5:35. How does this ayah proves tawassul through ahlul bayt or auliya while they are not amongst us? …and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Apostle had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful. Quran 4:64 Neither does this ayah prove anything, obviously i'd rush to prophet (saw) to ask forgiveness for me if he were amongst us, but now he is not. ‘They said: O our father! Ask forgiveness of our faults for us, surely we were sinners. Hazrat Yaqoob (a.s.) accepted their request (Surah Yusuf (12): Verse 98) same goes for this ayah. By these ayahs, I believe in tawassul through LITERALLY alive people, not alive in a barzakhi life. I seek nearness (wasila) to Allah by invoking HIS names, or by asking an alive person to pray for me. I am not convinced by these verses to ask nearness to Allah through virtuous people who passed away, because otherwise Allah would have told it in Quran clearly. But this is what Quran tells clearly; “And to Allah belongs the best name, so seek on Him by way of them.” (Surah al-a’raaf 7:180) Even if tawassul is allowed through the way of virtous people in graves, is it okay if I avoid that just to be on the safe side? 7)) What do Shiites think about prophet (s)'s death? Sunnis claim he is alive in HIS BODY in the grave. How can that be possible? Yes his spirit is alive in barzakhi life, where is the evidence of being alive in his BODY? Do shiites also claim this that virtuous people remain alive in their bodies or think Rasool Allah (s) is alive in an alem-e-barzakh? "Verily, you, O Muhammad SAW will die and verily, they too will die. [Quran 39:30] "Muhammad (SAW) is no more than a Messenger, and indeed (many) Messengers have passed away before him. When he dies or is killed, will you then turn back on your heels (as disbelievers)?" [Quran 3:144] Rasool Allah (s) was also given ritual shower and funeral prayer and these ayahs also prove that rasool Allah (s) passed away, so why do brelvis think his body is still alive? I think its foolishness and mocking verses of Quran by denying a fact. I hope Shiites agree that he is alive in only barzakh. 8)) Can I live without declaring a sect but still have sympathies with one sect which I believe are true followers of Quran and Sunnah? I want to be called a Muslim alone like Allah orders in Qur'an. 9)) How do I know if Sunni ahadith are saheeh or Shiite ahadith are saheeh? Both have big scholars to claim theirs are correct. Can't it be possible that both are correct and I can follow both. 10)) What is history of Imam Mahdi in shiites schools of thought. How do you know for sure he is true Imam Mahdi, and how, why and where did he hide. What are shiites belief about Jesus a.s? Please don't be hard on me as I am new and still learning and pondering. I hope my doubts are cleared through Quran because I reached this turning point of my life through His Signs and evidences, so i'll take only evidence. JazakAllah Khair.
Ahle Hadith Information
MisfitToy01 posted a topic in Minor Islamic SectsAoa, I was recently acquainted with someone who told me that she is "Ahle-Hadith." I was hoping someone could explain to me how exactly Ahle hadith are different from Sunnis and what connection they have to 'Wahhabis'? Wasallam, -MisfitToy01
New Sect: 'learning The Book (Al-Kitaab)'
Rasul posted a topic in Minor Islamic Sects
(wasalam) I am not sure what narration you are talking about but here is an authentic narration of Ali bin Abi Talib about Umar bin Khatab: When `Omar bin Khatab [ra] died `Ali bin Abi Talib [ra] came and said: "There is no one on this earth whom I want to have their deeds more than this man in the coffin" [sahih]
New To Islam, New To This Forum!
DZukow33 posted a topic in General Islamic DiscussionAs'salamu Alaykum, brothers and sisters of the Ummah.., My name is David, I am 32 years old and I currently live in the USA (Detroit, MI.) Like most Americans, I was raised in a Christian (Roman Catholic) home. I didn't start taking religion seriously until I was about 20. At that time I enrolled in Seminary, to study for the ministry. I learned a lot about the Christian faith, but the more I learned, the more questions and doubts I had. Long story short: I eventually dropped out of Seminary after completing my B.A. in Philosophy. For about 10 years, I was an agnostic. Religion still interested me, and I spent a lot of time reading about and studying the religions of the world; but I had no real beliefs, no faith. Eventually, I came across the Qur'an. The more I learned about Islam, the more I felt like I was coming into contact with the Truth. "This Qur'an is a revelation that is clear to the hearts of those endowed with knowledge." Qur'an 29:49. About a year ago, I took the Shahadah. Alhamdulillah! No one in my family is Muslim, nor did I have any Muslim friends when I converted (reverted) to Islam. Over the past year I have made a few friends at a local Shia Masjid, and I am very thankful for this. So.. I am new to Islam, new to Shia, and new to this forum. I just wanted to introduce myself, and say that I am here to learn as much as possible, and (Insha'Allah) hopefully make some new friends. (When I took the Shahadah, I did so at as Sunni Masjid. A few individuals from a local Sunni outreach program got in touch with me, took me to the Masjid and gave me some literature. They were constantly warning me about the dangers of Shia Islam. But.. given my curious nature, I couldn't help myself. I went to a local Shia Masjid and talked with the Imam. He explained some of the basic differences between Sunni and Shia, and suggested a couple of books for me to read. Since that time I've come to the conclusion, on my own, to embrace Shia Islam.) Like I said... I'm still new, and I have so much to learn. And with your help, perhaps you can help to further my knowledge of the Deen. Thanks for listening. Ma'a Salama! :shifty:
Extremist Branches Of Shia Sect.
ShaanHussayn posted a topic in General Islamic DiscussionSalam brothers, I hope you all doing good. This is my first topic. I was wondering if anyone could please tell me if there are any extremist branches in Shia sect like there are extremist branches in Sunni sect such as Wahabi, Salafi etc. Can you please list them, it would be great of you. Thanks
I'd like to learn more about the differences of the Shi3a sects that are out there. I've heard of 3 types so far. If anyone has any information on the differences in practices that separate us, please let me know. Or maybe give me a website than can show me the differences. Salaam The reason why I am asking is because I am looking for a Marja. So, isn't it important that I have a Marja that is from the same sect as me?
Sects - Mandatory To Be A Part Of One?
Payam posted a topic in Jurisprudence/LawsSalamun alaykum brothers and sisters, Must a person be of a particular sect to be a Muslim? It seems that the argument for needing, for example, Ahlul Bayt, is to help interpret the Qur'an. You need the most qualified individual to help guide you when you have questions. These are valid arguments and I agree. Yet, there is still a difference between adhering fully to a sect compared to being a person who tends to find their answers in a particular sect. In other words, such people find themselves closely following a sect as a coincidence and not as a necessity. These thoughts have come to me after hearing statements such as: "In our Shia books we have..." "In their Sunni books they say..." "Our Ismaili Imam has said prayer is not mandatory..." etc. There are two problems here: Using your own evidence to prove your position is irrelevant. It is as though you debate with a Christian by saying that "the Qur'an says it is from God". In these discussions, Shias prove themselves by their books and their Science of Hadiths, and Sunnis prove themsevles by their books and their Science of Hadiths. You cannot decipher any truth out of this approach. In the Ismaili example, it sounds as though the Qur'anic teaching is being modified. Yet, if you go with the premise that your sect is the truth, then of course it would not be seen as a modification but just as a clarification. You can basically fall into the trap of using your Sect's opinions to override the Qur'an. If not blatantly override, but to emphasize or de-emphasize a particular teaching in the Qur'an. Or while accepting Qur'anic teachings, you find yourself more carrying out Hadith teachings than Qur'anic ones. For example, Thursday nights Shias pray the dua of Kumayl. It would make more sense that no one would categorize themselves of a particular Sect except the vanguards of that Sect. Everyone else in reality is seeking answers to Islam, in particular to the Qur'an, and should seek knowledge in all schools and accept that which is most rational (this is to prevent the Qur'an only school of thought). It would also prevent a classification system where you classify yourself as part of a group, yet are ignorant regarding most teachings of that group or have contradictory beliefs to teachings of that group. Shouldn't our beliefs be on a spectrum and more continuous than to be grouped into a couple of discrete school of thoughts? Am I missing something here? I look forward to your response and opinion! Thank you!
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