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Read the Reddit comments to understand what the thread was about, since the post has since been deleted. ....................................................................................... I'm so tired of the utterly nonsensical and VERY COMMON Sunni notion of 'I am happy to seek unity with Shias as long as they don't curse/insult/abuse any Sahaba, and especially NOT Aisha, Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman. Firstly, any Shia claim regarding the sahabi that happens to go against the Sunni narrative is considered insulting. Secondly, and more importantly, is that the same notion is true for Shias... You are insulting the Ahlul Bayt by not accepting them as divinely appointed leaders of Allah, and infallible individuals, and perfect preservers of the religion of Islam, and a high means of seeking closeness to Allah (intercession). Not only are you insulting revered Shia figures by not following them, you are commiting MAJOR shirk by giving a false attribute to Allah, by saying that Allah has not always appointed an infallible leader on this Earth, and that there currently isn't an infallible leader. Furthermore, the real kicker is that plenty of revered Shia figures, such as Abu Talib (رضي الله عنه), are considered kuffar by Sunnis. Is this not insulting? So, how can we Shias unite with Sunnis based on their own fallacious logic? Shias are the minority, and Sunnis are the majority. It makes Sunnis think that they are Orthodox and that they have to unite with Heterodox for political and humanitarian reasons, and that Shias must make [ridiculous] compromises. Shias are far more receptive to the unity message, because we actually understand Sunni Islam, and can see the commonalities. We understand that we can't make Sunnis compromise on their beliefs. Simply by being the minority within Islam, by nature we Shias already understand Sunni beliefs, whereas Sunnis have a basic strawman understanding of Shia beliefs... which is natural, considering that they are the majority. Anyways, the point of my post is the following: Let's compile a list of revered Shia figures that are not given their proper status by Sunnis, according to Shia Islam... with an explanation given. ...This is to show that we Shias and Sunnis can unite, but we cannot unite upon revered figures and imamah. ...This will also serve as a way of showing Sunnis that this argument of theirs makes no sense. Another important question we may ask is "What about commonly revered figures like Imam Ali (عليه السلام) who is given different status in both sects? Can we unite upon Imam Ali (عليه السلام)?" ...a common Sunni criticism of political unity is that "Ali ibn Abi Talib (رضي الله عنه) is given an improper status in Shia religion because they call upon him... tawassul (intercession) of the 'dead' is Shirk! So there is absolutely no room for unity since we can't even agree on the status of the sahabi" [yes, I am aware that the Imams (عليه السلام) are still alive, but Sunnis don't believe this...] I would love to hear your thoughts. Wassalam. JazakAllah Khair. Fi sabilillah.
Allah Chosen Prophets & Leaders With Consultation.
Muslim2010 posted a topic in Shia/Sunni DialogueCan People Choose the Prophet or Caliph or Successor of the prophet with Shura or Consultation, instead of authority / command by Allah? The following questions serve as a food for thought for mindful people. 1- Hz Adam as was chosen by Allah swt as caliph / successor on the earth. Did Allah swt make any consultation for his selection ? 2- Allah swt Chosen Ibrahim as as Imam / leader of the people, Did Allah swt consult any prophet or any person for his selection ? 3- Hz Adam, Nuh, Ibrahim and the progeny of Imran were chosen above the worlds. Did Allah swt make any consultation with any prophet or person for this selection? 4- The prophet Nuh and Ibrahim were sent to his nation. Did the people choose them as prophet by Shura or consultation? 5- Allah swt gave the progeny of ibrahim, the book and the wisdom. Did Allah swt make any consultation or Shura with any one for this award to his progeny? 6- Allah swt chosed Ishmael, Elisha, Jonah and Lot—each graced over all the nations. Did Allah swt make any consultation for this grace? 7-Allah swt made Isac and yaqub leaders / imams, whom Allah consulted for this selection of leaders / imams? 8- Allah swt made Dawood a caliph ie his successor as his chosen representative on the earth. Did Allah swt conduct any consultation for this selection? 9- Allah swt made Haroon as and aider and adviser of hz Musa as. Did Allah swt make any consultation with the Children of israel for such selection? Or Musa made any shura for his selection? 10- Musa asked his adviser and aider made by Allah swt ie Harun to take his place as his caliph / successor in his absence, when he left for Mountain Tur. Did he make any shura for Haroon selection? However the people themselves chose and took a calf in Musa's absence then they were condemned by Allah swt for this worst action. 11- Allah swt made 12 leaders among the children of israel. Did Allah swt make any consultation for the selection of them? 12- Allah swt chosen Talut a leader over the children of Israel because of his knowledge and physical strength. Did Allah swt make consultation for his selection? 13- Allah swt sent the prophet Muhammad saww as mercy to the mankind. Did he make any consultation for his selection? 14- Allah swt made the prophet Muhammad saww as his messenger and the last of the prophets. Did Allah make any consultation for this selection? 15- And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him). 28:68. This verse in the light of above verses clearly indicates that the selection of representative (prophet / leader / imam/ successor) is the authority of Allah alone. and no one has any right for it. It does not involve any consultation for their selection. 16- The way of Allah does not change: [This is] the established way of Allah with those who passed on before; and you will not find in the way of Allah any change. (33:62) 17- The people do not have any right for selection of prophet or his representative then certainly they cannot choose any one after the prophet as his caliph ./ successor at their own (by any consultation) without permission by Allah. Thus what happened after the prophet Muhammad saww for the selection of the Calif Abubakr is considered an innovation or bidda in the religion in violation to the established principles of the quran. Regards
Sunni Hadith For Names Of 12 Caliphs
Muslim2010 posted a topic in Shia/Sunni DialogueCan Sunni quote an authentic hadith naming their 12 Caliphs, from Sihah Sitta?
Who Are The Top 3 Zaydi Ulama Today?
Muhammad_Hussain posted a topic in General Islamic DiscussionIn terms of knowledge and piety, who are the top 3 Zaydi Ulama alive today and where are they?
Leaders In Nation Of Muhammad Saww
Muslim2010 posted a topic in Shia/Sunni Dialogue1- There is also an interesting tradition in Sahih al-Bukhari as well as Sahih Muslim in which the Prophet (PBUH&HF) said the following: Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 9.422 Narrated Abu Sa'id al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure (lizard), you would follow them." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Whom else?" As the above tradition in Sahih al-Bukhari confirms, the Prophet stated that the history of the Children of Israel will be repeated for Muslims as revelaed to the prophet in similar manner. In fact, Quran has mentioned the stories of the Children of Israel to give us a way to understand the true history of Islam itself. 2-There are many striking similarities in this regard written in Quran including the similarities of the leaders and the similarities of the people. Few of them are given here. Allah, to whom belong Might and Majesty, said: وَلَقَدْ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ مِيثَاقَ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ وَبَعَثْنَا مِنْهُمُ اثْنَيْ عَشَرَ نَقِيبًا . "Surely Allah aforetime took a covenant from the Children of Israel and We appointed twelve leaders among them" (Quran 5:12) “Who are those TWELVE leaders among the Children of Muhammad (PBUH&HF)?” 3- Allah, Exalted, also said: "And when Moses prayed for water for his (thirsty) people; We said: 'Strike the rock with your staff.' Then from there surged forth TWELVE springs so that each group knew its own place to drink." (Quran 2:60). - Who are those twelve springs (streams) of knowledge who quench the thirst of Muslims to the end of the world so that each generation is utilized with one of them? He, Exalted He is, also said: 4- "We divided them into TWELVE nations. We directed Moses by revelation when his (thirsty) people asked him for water: 'Strike the rock with your staff;' out of it there gushed forth twelve springs so that each group knew its own place for water. We gave them the shade of clouds and sent down to them manna and quails (saying): 'Eat of the good things We have provided for you,' (but they rebelled.) To Us they did no harm but they harmed their own souls." (Quran 7:160). Verily those who did not follow those TWELVE leaders, harmed non but themselves. The above verse suggests that the nation of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) in the span of history (after his demise till the day of judgment) are divided into 12 intervals of time which coincides with one Imam who is assigned as leader for them. 5- In the next verse Allah said: "And when it was said unto them: 'Dwell in this Town and eat therein as you wish, and say Repentance, and enter the Gate (of the city) in a posture of humility, in order that We forgive you your sins and increase (the portion of) those who do good.'" (Quran 7:161) or: "And when We said: 'Enter this Town and eat of the plenty therein as you wish; but enter the Gate (of the City) with humility in posture and in words so that We forgive you your sins and increase (the portion of) those who do good.'" (Quran 2:58). The Gate in the above verses has a striking similarity with one of the attributes of Imam Ali (as) mentioned by our Prophet (PBUH&HF) that is: "The Gate of the City of Knowledge." The Messenger of Allah said: "I am the City of Knowledge, and Ali is its Gate. So whoever intends to enter the City and the Wisdom, he should enter from its Gate." Sunni references: - Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 201,637 - al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, pp 126-127,226 - Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p635, Tradition #1081 and many more... 6- Furthermore the following Prophetic tradition gives the utmost similarity with the above two verses: The Messenger of Allah said: "My Ahlul-Bait are like the Gate of Repentance of the Children of Israel; whoever entered therein was forgiven." Sunni References: - Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haithami, v9, p168. - al-Awsat, by al-Tabarani, Tradition #18 - Arba'in, by al-Nabahani, p216 - A fairly similar tradition reported by al-Darqunti and by Ibn Hajar al-Haithami in al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqa, Ch. 9, section 2, p193, in which the Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Ali is the Gate of Repentance, whoever entered therein was a believer and whoever went out was an unbeliever." 7- Also Allah swt stated in Quran: Lo! The number of the months with Allah is TWELVE which is Allah's ordinance when He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. That is the firm religion. So wrong not your souls in them. (Quran9:36) The other meaning (as interpreted by Ahlul-Bait) is that the Prophet in his last pilgrimage (less than three month before his demise) wanted to convey that he will be followed by twelve Imams and people should not wrong their souls by disobeying them in their leadership periods. Among these twelve Imams, four have a sacred name, i.e., "Ali", which is derived from the name of Allah. In fact, four Imams of Ahlul-Bait (peace be upon them all) have been named "Ali". In the Sira of Ibn Hisham, there is an extra sentence of the Messenger of Allah which is, in fact, the verse of Quran. The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "'Postponement of a sacred month is only an excess of disbelief whereby those who disbelieve are misled; they allow it one year and forbid it another year that they may make up the number of months which God has hallowed so that they permit what God has forbidden (Quran 9:37), and forbid what God has allowed. Time has completed its cycle and is as it was on the day that God created the heavens and the earth. The number of months with God is twelve. Four of them are sacred." Sunni references: - Sira, by Ibn Hisham at the end of Chapter of "Farewell Pilgrimage", p968 - The Life of Muhammad (English translation of Sira Ibn Hisham), Translated into English by A. Guillaume, 1955 Edition, London, p651 8- In a tradition on the authority of Jabir (ra), Imam Muhammad al-Baqir, the fifth Imam of Ahlul-Bait, interprets the above verse which is as follows: Jabir said: I asked Imam Muhammad al-Baqir about the meaning of the verse: "Verily the number of the months … (9:36)." He (as) breathed long (out of sorrow) and said: "O Jabir, The 'year' is my grandfather, the messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF), and his family are its 'months' who are the twelve Imams, and are … (naming the Imams one by one). They are the Proofs of Allah on His creation, and Trusties of His revelations and His knowledge. And Those of 'four sacred who are the firm religion' are those four who have the same name, and are Ali, the Commander of Faithful (as), and my father Ali Ibn al-Husain (as), and later Ali Ibn Musa (as), and Ali Ibn Muhammad (as). Thus acknowledging these four is 'the firm religion, so wrong not your souls in them' and believe in all of them to be guided." Shi'i reference: Kitab al-Ghaiba, by Shaikh Tusi. 9- O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you (by Allah). (4:59) On the commentary of the verse 4:59 of Quran in which Allah orders us to obey Ulul-Amr, al-Khazzaz in his book, Kifayatul Athar, gives a tradition on the authority of the well-known companion of the Prophet (PBUH&HF), Jabir Ibn Abdillah al-Ansari (ra): When the verse (4:59) was revealed, Jabir asked the Prophet (PBUH&HF): "We know Allah and the Prophet, but who are those vested with authority whose obedience has been conjoined to that of Allah and yourself?" The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "They are my Caliphs and the Imams (leaders) of Muslims after me. The first of them is Ali; then al-Hasan; then al-Husain; then Ali son of al-Husain; then Muhammad son of Ali who has been mentioned 'al-Baqir' in the Torah (the old testament). O Jabir! You will meet him. When you see him, convey my greetings to him. He will be succeeded by his son, Ja'far al-Sadiq (the Truthful); then Musa son of Ja'far; then Ali son of Musa; then Muhammad son of Ali; then Ali son of Muhammad; then al-Hasan son of Ali. He will be followed by his son whose name and nick name will be the same as mine. He will be Proof of Allah (Hujjatullah) on the earth, and the one spared by Allah (Baqiyyatullah) to maintain the cause of faith among mankind. He shall conquer the whole world from the east to the west. So long will he remain hidden from the eyes of his followers and friends that the belief in his leadership will remain only in those hearts which have been tested by Allah for faith." Jabir said: "O Messenger of Allah! Will his followers benefit from his seclusion?" The Prophet said: "Yes! by Him who sent me with prophethood! They will be guided by his light, and benefit from his leadership during his seclusion, just as people benefit from the sun even though it is hidden in the clouds. O Jabir! This is from the hidden secrets of Allah and the treasured knowledge of Allah. So guard it except from the people who deserve to know." (Kifayatul Athar, by al-Khazzaz, p53). Now that we know who "those vested with authority" are, it is evident that the question of obeying tyrant and unjust rulers does not rise at all. Muslims are not required by the above verse to obey rulers who may be unjust, tyrannical, ignorant, and selfish and sunk in debauchery. They are, in fact, ordered to obey the specified Twelve Imams, all of whom were sinless and free from evil thoughts and deeds. Obeying them has no risks whatsoever. Nay, it protects from all risks; because they will never give an order against the order of Allah and will treat all human beings with love, justice, and equity. 10- From the history of the Children of Israel we further get the following: And he (Pharoah) was arrogant, he and his soldiers, in the land, without right, and they thought that they would not be returned to Us. (28:40) So We took him and his soldiers and threw them into the sea. So see how the end of the wrongdoers was. (28:41) And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire, and on the Day of Resurrection they will not be helped. (28:42) And We caused to overtake them in this world a curse, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be of the despised. (28:43) So the leaders who may lead to hell fire should not be followed. 11- Now the Quran also mentions the identification of those leaders as quoted by Quran in the following verse: . وَقَارُونَ وَفِرْعَوْنَ وَهَامَانَ ۖ وَلَقَدْ جَاءَهُم مُّوسَىٰ بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ فَاسْتَكْبَرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَمَا كَانُوا سَابِقِينَ And [We destroyed] Qarun and Pharaoh and Haman. And Moses had already come to them with clear evidences, and they were arrogant in the land, but they were not outrunners [of Our punishment]. (29:39) The Pharoah and his companions were declared leaders inviting to hell fire. They along-with their followers were drowned in the sea and destroyed by Allah swt. 12- The Quran mentions here the names of 3 top leaders from the Children of Israel that include: Qarun, Pharoah and Haman who led these people. The Pharoah was the ruler, Haman was his adviser and the Qarun was rich. This serves as reminder for the people in the Nation of Muhammad saww. Conclusion; Thus lt makes it clear that we should follow 12 Imams / leaders from Ahl albayat as to avoid going astray according to the prophet sayings they are not separable from Quran. They will certainly reach the pool of paradise, and their followers will also be successful. ______________________________________________________________________
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